Re: looking for heresy

[jeolmstead]

I think the church is better served by looking for what is right about something as apposed to looking for what is wrong. If we turn on a light darkness flees. (We do not need to take a light bulb and beat the darkness out of the room)

Philippians 4:8-9
8Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.


None of us are “right” about everything. Yet, the measure I use in judging others will be used to measure me.

(I’ll give grace because I want grace)

One man’s “truth” is another man’s heresy.

Personally I reserve the word for something along the lines of “denying the divinity of Christ”

You can get consumed by defending what you believe

Or

You can get consumed by attacking what others believe

In either case you’ve been “eaten up” and there’s nothing left for the kingdom.

So, for me, If your RC, Baptist, WoF, Charismatic, Post-Charismatic, or whatever. I’m going to focus on whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, whatever is excellent, and whatever is praiseworthy.
In doing this I believe that the kingdom will be loosed. And one of two things will happen.

1. My opponents will see the fruit of the Spirit in my life and will have to acknowledge that God’s hand is upon me. Love overcomes all arguments.

or

2. Because I have humbled myself and chose to love my opponents God will open my eyes and show me that I am wrong and they are right.

It’s a win-win for me either way.


Hunting for heresy is like hunting for cow-patties Sure, it’s there in “abundance”, but what good is it to you? Does it make you “more right” to expose the wrong in others?
It’s enough to walk through the pasture and only deal with that which you “step in”. That’s enough, don’t look for more!
It’s the spirit of Hamm that seeks to expose the “nakedness” of others. If that’s what motivates us we can expect the judgment of Hamm in return.


John O.

 

[probinson]

Good word John! And good to see you back posting!

 

[enoch son]

I look up the word heresy in the strong's as used in the bible one time. It means "One who calls for choice".

 

[Faulty]

Sorry John. I usually love your posts, but you seem to be contradicting Titus chapter 1:

"For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.​

For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.​

Titus 1:7-16 (ESV)

 

[enoch son]

Sorry John. I usually love your posts, but you seem to be contradicting Titus chapter 1:

"For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.​

For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.​

Titus 1:7-16 (ESV)

You mean like someone who say's "Jesus it's all about You I'm yours" and then say's it OK now I can take back over agian?

 

[jeolmstead]

Sorry John. I usually love your posts, but you seem to be contradicting Titus chapter 1:

"For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.​

For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.​

Titus 1:7-16 (ESV)

I do not see the contradiction. Paul is admonishing Titus to deal with the “cow patty” he is responsible for. (this is what I meant about dealing with the ones I step in)

In my job as a leader I am called upon to do this as well, however, the most important tool I have in combating heresy is speaking the truth in love.

IMO we focus to much on the shadows and not enough on the light. Turn up the light and the shadows become more apparent.

For example, I try to teach people to know and be known where they serve. I do not have to beat the drum about “brother grand poo-pah” and the latest “great move of god” happening on the other side of the country. The truth sets people free, not more knowledge about error.

I do not know brother poo-bah, nor do the throngs in the crowd. What you have is a room full of strangers being lead by a stranger. It is a recipe for disaster. When it blows up there is no overseer to deal with it.

I am not the grand brother’s overseer nor am I the pastor of the crowd fawning over him.

I try and teach people the error of this situation. If they grasp that they will save the price of the airfare stay home and serve where they are planted.

One of the reasons people look for love in all the wrong places is that they aren’t finding it in the “right place” I can’t fix the wrong place. I can do something about the place around me.

When poo-bah comes to my church I will address him directly in love as God gives me charge. Until then I will try and promote the truth so that those who hear it might recognize all the poo-bah’s of the world.

John O.

 

[WOFFER]

Good word John!

 

[enoch son]

I'm sorry for some reson I had the idea Jesus was the light of the world. I didn't know man was in control of the switch.

 

[Leah]

I think the church is better served by looking for what is right about something as apposed to looking for what is wrong. If we turn on a light darkness flees. (We do not need to take a light bulb and beat the darkness out of the room)

Philippians 4:8-9
8Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.


None of us are “right” about everything. Yet, the measure I use in judging others will be used to measure me.

(I’ll give grace because I want grace)

One man’s “truth” is another man’s heresy.

Personally I reserve the word for something along the lines of “denying the divinity of Christ”

You can get consumed by defending what you believe

Or

You can get consumed by attacking what others believe

In either case you’ve been “eaten up” and there’s nothing left for the kingdom.

So, for me, If your RC, Baptist, WoF, Charismatic, Post-Charismatic, or whatever. I’m going to focus on whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, whatever is excellent, and whatever is praiseworthy.
In doing this I believe that the kingdom will be loosed. And one of two things will happen.

1.My opponents will see the fruit of the Spirit in my life and will have to acknowledge that God’s hand is upon me. Love overcomes all arguments.

or

2.Because I have humbled myself and chose to love my opponents God will open my eyes and show me that I am wrong and they are right.

It’s a win-win for me either way.


Hunting for heresy is like hunting for cow-patties Sure, it’s there in “abundance”, but what good is it to you? Does it make you “more right” to expose the wrong in others?
It’s enough to walk through the pasture and only deal with that which you “step in”. That’s enough, don’t look for more!
It’s the spirit of Hamm that seeks to expose the “nakedness” of others. If that’s what motivates us we can expect the judgment of Hamm in return.


John O.

 

[JimfromOhio]

In matters in which Scripture is not explicit there is room for difference of opinion. This is the very reason why God allowed controversy in the church at Corinth: “For there must also be factions (opinions) among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you” (1 Cor. 11:19). Yet to avoid the disunity of the Corinthian church, we must handle our opinions with abundant humility and grace. We must be very careful to draw this distinction between essentials and non-essentials lest we become guilty of schism and begin to rend the body of Christ. This is why Paul exhorts us to “mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them” (Rom 16:17). Discernment is not a matter of simply telling the difference between right and wrong; rather it is telling the difference between right and almost right. These are spiritual matters about which we must be legitimately honest and in which we must seek the discernment of the Holy Spirit. These are things about which we cannot afford to be wrong; to be wrong is still to be lost and far from God. This does not mean that we are to ignore doctrinal error. 1 Corinthians 13:6 says that love "rejoices in the truth." So one aspect of loving one another is to strive for doctrinal purity by pointing out doctrinal error, not by ignoring it.

"God never gives us discernment in order that we may criticize, but that we may intercede." ------ Oswald Chambers "Defend the Bible?

 

[Simon Peter]

Disappointed in this thread John.

The title gives away the bias: "Looking for heresy".

Who goes 'looking for heresy'? I've never looked for it! It finds me. I have friends that get caught up in it, I see it when I turn the TV on, I read it in books, I read it when I visit CF. I never look for it. I hate it, it bothers me, it unsettles me, why would I look for it?

When it finds me, do I stay silent?

That should be the title of this thread John: 'Should you stay silent'?

You then claim these 'Heresy Hunters' "attack what others believe"; as if they are the perpetrator, and the heretics the victim! Are we supposed to believe these supposed 'Heresy Hunters' seek out poor innocent defenseless Christians attempting to practice their religion, and then they attack them?

The name ‘heresy hunter’ has been a very clever and devious label indeed.

I know you’ve suffered at the hands of the church John. Those who were aware of this abuse, would you have had them stay silent or speak out when they saw wrongdoing?


peace,
Simon

 

[Dash Riprock]

Disappointed in this thread John.

The title gives away the bias: "Looking for heresy".

Who goes 'looking for heresy'? I've never looked for it! It finds me. I have friends that get caught up in it, I see it when I turn the TV on, I read it in books, I read it when I visit CF. I never look for it. I hate it, it bothers me, it unsettles me, why would I look for it?

When it finds me, do I stay silent?

That should be the title of this thread John: 'Should you stay silent'?

You then claim these 'Heresy Hunters' "attack what others believe"; as if they are the perpetrator, and the heretics the victim! Are we supposed to believe these supposed 'Heresy Hunters' seek out poor innocent defenseless Christians attempting to practice their religion, and then they attack them?

The name ‘heresy hunter’ has been a very clever and devious label indeed.

I know you’ve suffered at the hands of the church John. Those who were aware of this abuse, would you have had them stay silent or speak out when they saw wrongdoing?


peace,
Simon

Excellent.

 

[Dash Riprock]

Sorry John. I usually love your posts, but you seem to be contradicting Titus chapter 1:

"For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.​

For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.​

Titus 1:7-16 (ESV)

Exactly.Most of Pauls letter were establishing that great "evil" called doctrine.He had his back ripped open 3 times becsue he was defending the doctrine og God,as he also told Timothy,his beloved son in the faith,to do the same.

 

[Dash Riprock]

I think the church is better served by looking for what is right about something as apposed to looking for what is wrong. If we turn on a light darkness flees. (We do not need to take a light bulb and beat the darkness out of the room)

Philippians 4:8-9
8Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.


None of us are “right” about everything. Yet, the measure I use in judging others will be used to measure me.

(I’ll give grace because I want grace)

One man’s “truth” is another man’s heresy.

Personally I reserve the word for something along the lines of “denying the divinity of Christ”

You can get consumed by defending what you believe

Or

You can get consumed by attacking what others believe

In either case you’ve been “eaten up” and there’s nothing left for the kingdom.

So, for me, If your RC, Baptist, WoF, Charismatic, Post-Charismatic, or whatever. I’m going to focus on whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, whatever is excellent, and whatever is praiseworthy.
In doing this I believe that the kingdom will be loosed. And one of two things will happen.

1.My opponents will see the fruit of the Spirit in my life and will have to acknowledge that God’s hand is upon me. Love overcomes all arguments.

or

2.Because I have humbled myself and chose to love my opponents God will open my eyes and show me that I am wrong and they are right.

It’s a win-win for me either way.


Hunting for heresy is like hunting for cow-patties Sure, it’s there in “abundance”, but what good is it to you? Does it make you “more right” to expose the wrong in others?
It’s enough to walk through the pasture and only deal with that which you “step in”. That’s enough, don’t look for more!
It’s the spirit of Hamm that seeks to expose the “nakedness” of others. If that’s what motivates us we can expect the judgment of Hamm in return.


John O.

I just wanted to ask you something.Should Paul have fought the Colossian heretics,and also the Galatian heretics? Paul even confronted the major apostle to his face,Peter.

 

[Yitzchak]

Disappointed in this thread John.

The title gives away the bias: "Looking for heresy".

Who goes 'looking for heresy'? I've never looked for it! It finds me. I have friends that get caught up in it, I see it when I turn the TV on, I read it in books, I read it when I visit CF. I never look for it. I hate it, it bothers me, it unsettles me, why would I look for it?

When it finds me, do I stay silent?

That should be the title of this thread John: 'Should you stay silent'?

You then claim these 'Heresy Hunters' "attack what others believe"; as if they are the perpetrator, and the heretics the victim! Are we supposed to believe these supposed 'Heresy Hunters' seek out poor innocent defenseless Christians attempting to practice their religion, and then they attack them?

The name ‘heresy hunter’ has been a very clever and devious label indeed.

I know you’ve suffered at the hands of the church John. Those who were aware of this abuse, would you have had them stay silent or speak out when they saw wrongdoing?


peace,
Simon

I think that the label heresy hunter does apply to ministries who have a website that has hundreds of attacks on Christian ministries. Some of the websites do read like a tabloid. Even Billy Graham has whole ministries devouted to "exposing" him as being from the devil.
I can conceive of the fact that God could call someone to be a modern day " prophet " who is called to expose error in the body of Christ. It is a shame that the heresy hunters are making it difficult for the real defenders of the faith.
The label is accurate. But who the label is applied to is a matter of debate. Some of these websites it is obvious that they are heresy hunters. Other's it is more of a judgment call which could go either way.
As someone who hates error , I can certainly feel vexed myself at the false teachings that are flying around the body of Christ. It sometimes resembles an all you can eat buffet rather than careful discipleship. But I don't feel the compulsion to denounce churches as being from the devil.

 

[charityagape]

I look up the word heresy in the strong's as used in the bible one time. It means "One who calls for choice".

 

[jeolmstead]

I just wanted to ask you something.Should Paul have fought the Colossian heretics,and also the Galatian heretics? Paul even confronted the major apostle to his face,Peter.

It was Paul’s charge to address those issues in those churches for which he had oversight.

Again, I’m all for addressing error biblically.

Frankly I am somewhat dismayed by the reception of this thread by some. I went back again and read it to see if I am guilty of misrepresentation of the word. It was of course Paul to the Philippians that I quoted.

All I am saying is if error comes your way point it out. In that I think we agree. I believe the best way to do this is to teach the truth in love.

As for heresy hunting, there are some folks who never have a good thing to say about anyone or anything. They may be correct on the facts but they are not “right”. They are nothing more than tingling brass and clanging symbols.

Hamm was correct when he pointed out Noah’s drunkenness. He was not however “right”.

It is the same spirit displayed by the Pharisee who thanked God he was not like the publican crying in the corner. He sees himself totally justified when he is in fact full of himself, not even realizing he is driven by his own self absorbed religious flesh.

You do not have the right to point out anyone’s error if you don’t love them.

John O

 

[SavedByGrace3]

It was Paul’s charge to address those issues in those churches for which he had oversight.

Again, I’m all for addressing error biblically.

Frankly I am somewhat dismayed by the reception of this thread by some. I went back again and read it to see if I am guilty of misrepresentation of the word. It was of course Paul to the Philippians that I quoted.

All I am saying is if error comes your way point it out. In that I think we agree. I believe the best way to do this is to teach the truth in love.

As for heresy hunting, there are some folks who never have a good thing to say about anyone or anything. They may be correct on the facts but they are not “right”. They are nothing more than tingling brass and clanging symbols.

Hamm was correct when he pointed out Noah’s drunkenness. He was not however “right”.

It is the same spirit displayed by the Pharisee who thanked God he was not like the publican crying in the corner. He sees himself totally justified when he is in fact full of himself, not even realizing he is driven by his own self absorbed religious flesh.

You do not have the right to point out anyone’s error if you don’t love them.

John O

Your last line is wisdom for all to learn.
It is Friday night... 11 oclock in my time.
THere are 2 people here.
2
Me and honeycomb


When we learn that lesson.

They will know us by our love.

What are they thinking now?

 

[jeolmstead]

Disappointed in this thread John.

The title gives away the bias: "Looking for heresy".

Who goes 'looking for heresy'? I've never looked for it! It finds me. I have friends that get caught up in it, I see it when I turn the TV on, I read it in books, I read it when I visit CF. I never look for it. I hate it, it bothers me, it unsettles me, why would I look for it?

When it finds me, do I stay silent?

That should be the title of this thread John: 'Should you stay silent'?

You then claim these 'Heresy Hunters' "attack what others believe"; as if they are the perpetrator, and the heretics the victim! Are we supposed to believe these supposed 'Heresy Hunters' seek out poor innocent defenseless Christians attempting to practice their religion, and then they attack them?

The name ‘heresy hunter’ has been a very clever and devious label indeed.

I know you’ve suffered at the hands of the church John. Those who were aware of this abuse, would you have had them stay silent or speak out when they saw wrongdoing?


peace,
Simon

First let me say that I’m sorry you are disappointed in my thread. I have a lot of respect for you and you opinion is important to me.

Yes, I admit to my bias in this thread, I do believe there are people who unfairly attack others with different views. I see it here all the time.

People use the truth to attack folks here quite often. They may be correct about the facts, but there is no love in their words. The vilest of men is still loved by God. He is due respect for that alone if nothing else.

We seem to be glad when brother grand pooh-bah slips up, or his wife leaves him, or whatever. We didn’t like him anyway and now we have a club to beat him with.

No, I would not have you or anyone remain silent about heresy. I do take exception as to how some here do deal with it.

Yes I do believe there are some who speaking out of their own dead religious flesh seek out weaker brothers and attack their “heresy” They are like the Pharisees who would travel to the ends of the earth to find converts only to make them bigger sons of the devil then they themselves were.

I didn’t coin the term “heresy hunter” and suppose because it’s ambiguous I run the risk of being misunderstood. I used it in my thread because it was used here before me and I wanted to address that. As to how clever or devious it is I can only say that I do strive to be clever, but never devious.

As to what I suffered in the church I suppose there was a time when I wanted their heads on a pole. However, the folks who hurt me are not heretics. They were just wrong and as fallible human beings they were doing the best they knew how to do. My response to what happened to me now is to teach those who come after me to learn from their honest mistake. (I’m thankful that I found the way to forgive them) I guess it might have been better if someone had spoken out about their error. Frankly, looking back now, God has brought a lot of good in my life out of the situation.

Sorry if I offended, not my intention

John O.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I just wanted to ask you something.Should Paul have fought the Colossian heretics,and also the Galatian heretics? Paul even confronted the major apostle to his face,Peter.

LOL, maybe you don't realise this but the way you said this you make it sound that you are saying that Peter was a heretic.

Otherwise, Paul did not fight against heritics. He did not carry on, and on, and on, and on with or about them. Yes he had some not so nice words to say about them in order to give us a warning not to listen to them but he did not fight them. Paul went about preaching the gospel, and yes he debated in the synagogues but he did not fight against anyone.

Here is what Paul's attitude towards people who were divisive and I presume heretics as well.
Titus 3:9-11, But avoid foolish controveries and genealogies and arguements and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person one, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

I would say debate the heresies but don't fight the heretics.