Re-examination of 1Cor6:9

[Archer93]

By all above, below, and between, MercyBurst, you are the worst advertisement for Christianity that I have ever seen!

You respond to questions such as
'If he meant that all same-sex sex was unquestionably wrong; why didn't he say so clearly and distinctly?'
and to comments such as
"It makes more sense to read it as indicating a particular set of circumstances, so that the activity itself is not wrong but the situation or approach is, in the same way that having heterosexual intercourse when you are married is perfectly fine- as long as the person you are having it with is the person you are married to!" with complete non-sequiturs such as "
Gay sex is idolatry worship." and "Idolatry is wrong."

You back up the above comments with reference to scribblings on bathroom walls- I really can't tell if you're being serious about that or not, and I'm not sure which would be worse.

You seem to be OBSESSED with gay sex in that you expand at length about it. Not just discussing why it may or may not be Biblically forbidden, but also saying that there's something inherantly wrong about it-
"me too if it isn't plainly obvious enough without looking at a Bible."
Bed as an altar where the giver worships the receiver? You seem to view homosexuality as a religion!
And very few- IF ANY! are asking you to bow before it. We're just asking you to ease up a bit on the 'Your manifestation of love is evil!' routine since there's no unambiguous biblical condemnation of it.
We have a dog in the fight- well, so do you. Does that make you dishonest?

And when you can't refute someone's posts, you resort to pointing out (redundantly) that they identify as 'pagan' and call them a sock puppet.
Of course not everyone on this forum identifies as Christian. What did you expect? And with a post count in the 4,000s, what did you know?

Address the questions, or be viewed as a troll. However-

We don't care about the praise of men.

We can tell.

But snaps, BTW, to Jet_A_Jockey who is not a homophobe as I seem to recall him saying on another thread that, since the USA is not a theocracy he has no issue with purely secular same-sex 'marriage'; and to Phinehas2 who engages on an intellectual level and who has not, as far as I can tell, resorted to ad hominem attacks.
I disagree with them and their conclusions, but they engage with the points raised with thought and I respect them for that.

 

[Brieuse]

Gay sex is idolatry according to the "writing on the wall" in the men's room.

Gays write that they worship a man's [wash my mouth]. They call it "their god" and want to give it pleasure, saying it's better to give than receive. That sounds like a Bible verse.

yup, it's idolatry.

How often I've heard that one woman absolutely worshipped another, only to end up in a lesbian relationship.

As one pastor said, somewhere in the middle of it all is "beauty" -- that is the god they worship, thinking it will bring them pleasure.

Yup, it's idolatry.

huh?

Those gay types that hang around in latrines are probably married to women and desperate for something that they always truly desired. A sad product of homophobia and history when homosexuality was a crime.

To compare us Christians that happen to be gay to that is sad and desperate and reflects some mental issues in your life.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I think the whole comparison between idolatry and same-sex sex was meant to be that practicing homosexuality even while knowing it to be in conflict with scripture, puts it above God and therefore an idol.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

From the Bible. Children always end up on the losing end of the deal whether it's parents sacrificing their own babies to Molech or a to-ebah same-sex temple worship where sex is NEVER about children.



With heteros at the same time. With gays, one typically gives it to the other and vice versa, especially with the anal variety. As with other sexual idoaltries, the children are sacrificed -- there aren't any. In this respect, abortion is also an idolatry for the hetero god of sexual pleasure.

um... I'm going to take this as final confirmation that you have precisely zero idea of what homosexual intimacy involves... it is deeply pleasurable for all parties concerned, simultaneously.

Trust me, or would you like a diagram?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I think the whole comparison between idolatry and same-sex sex was meant to be that practicing homosexuality even while knowing it to be in conflict with scripture, puts it above God and therefore an idol.

so is eating shellfish idolatry?

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

so is eating shellfish idolatry?

If you believe that it is against God to do so, yet you do it anyway. I'm not going to debate the tired all or nothing leviticus argument with you tonight, im sleepy

 

[EnemyPartyII]

If you believe that it is against God to do so, yet you do it anyway. I'm not going to debate the tired all or nothing leviticus argument with you tonight, im sleepy

No no! I think we are a hair's breadth away from understanding!

IF you believe something is a sin, and do it anyway, then indeed, i agree, it IS a sin... BUT, and here's the crux, if you DON'T believe something is a sin, and your act is conducted with the adult consent of all concerned, it is NOT a sin.

I don't believe homosexual intimacy within a loving committed relationship is a sin, I conduct said intimacy with the fully informed consent of the other person, therefore, ITS NOT A SIN, right?

 

[David Brider]

You got that right-- it's their best way to express their incomplete love -- not God's best way. God's best way allows for life to be created from the union. Even when Sara was 90-something she had a child according to God's plan. Thanks for pointing that out.

So a sexual union is validated because of whether or not children can result from it? I know I'm not the first to mention this, but what about heterosexual couples who are infertile, or too elderly to conceive? What about heterosexual couples who use artificial methods to prevent conception?

The worshipper gives pleasure and their god (whihc is the other person) receives pleasure.

AIUI, homosexual sex is a pleasurable experience for both people, not just for one.

David.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

No no! I think we are a hair's breadth away from understanding!

IF you believe something is a sin, and do it anyway, then indeed, i agree, it IS a sin... BUT, and here's the crux, if you DON'T believe something is a sin, and your act is conducted with the adult consent of all concerned, it is NOT a sin.

The problem is that whether you or I believe something is a sin or not, does not make it so. The main source of indication we have is the holy bible. At least for me it is, for you though, your main source of indication may be in your own understandings of right/wrong. I say that since you keep referencing "adults" and "consent".

I don't believe homosexual intimacy within a loving committed relationship is a sin, I conduct said intimacy with the fully informed consent of the other person, therefore, ITS NOT A SIN, right?

Like I just said to the above quote, whether you believe it is a sin or not does not necessarily make it so. Your source to believe what you do on this subject is not biblical.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

AIUI, homosexual sex is a pleasurable experience for both people, not just for one.

Might be worth pointing out AGAIN that anal sex is NOT the be all and end all of homosexual intimacy, despite mercyburst's apparent fixation

 

[EnemyPartyII]

you just told me that shellfish are only sinful if you BELIEVE it is... why is homosexuality different?

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

you just told me that shellfish are only sinful if you BELIEVE it is... why is homosexuality different?

I was speaking according to one's self. If you know something is a sin, yet you do it anyway, then you are sinning. The way I worded it could be better, but it was meant to apply to people who claim ignorance on the subject so that they can feel better about it.

You have to understand, God is the judge. Whether I believe something is sinful or not, or what you believe is sinful or not, has absolutely zero bearing on God's judgement. I use the bible to determine how His judgements are made, and I attempt to follow it. You've already stated that you apply a humanist concept as your method, so that is our impass.

 

[David Brider]

Might be worth pointing out AGAIN that anal sex is NOT the be all and end all of homosexual intimacy, despite mercyburst's apparent fixation

From one of the things that mercyburst said earlier ("They bow down to worship the one they adore") I can't help thinking that he's got something else in mind than anal sex...

David.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I was speaking according to one's self. If you know something is a sin, yet you do it anyway, then you are sinning. The way I worded it could be better, but it was meant to apply to people who claim ignorance on the subject so that they can feel better about it.

You have to understand, God is the judge. Whether I believe something is sinful or not, or what you believe is sinful or not, has absolutely zero bearing on God's judgement. I use the bible to determine how His judgements are made, and I attempt to follow it. You've already stated that you apply a humanist concept as your method, so that is our impass.

I don't thionk God will judge anyone guilty of a sin that they don't believe themselves guilty of.

Thats unjust

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I don't thionk God will judge anyone guilty of a sin that they don't believe themselves guilty of.

Thats unjust

But the question is why someone believes they are not sinning. Is it because of their own personal bias? Are they deceiving themselves? Is it because someone cannot accept the condemnation, is this why they do not believe it? that is much different than pure ignorance.

 

[David Brider]

But the question is why someone believes they are not sinning. Is it because of their own personal bias? Are they deceiving themselves? Is it because someone cannot accept the condemnation, is this why they do not believe it? that is much different than pure ignorance.

Well, on the issue of homosexual sex specifically, I don't believe it's a sin because, on prayerful consideration of the issues involved, I believe that the texts usually used to condemn homosexual sex have either been mis-interpreted or mis-translated to say something more or something other than they actually say.

I also believe that it's unlikely to be something God places much importance on (even if I'm wrong and it is a sin) given that there are so many genuine evils going on in the world (murder, war, rape, child abuse, extreme poverty, just for a few examples).

David.

 

[David Brider]

PS: Of course, it's a bit academic to me as I'm not likely ever to engage in homosexual sex. But even so, I really object when my fellow Christians talk about and to homosexual men and women (including Christians) in manners which are at best condescending and patronising, and at worst full of hatred and scorn. (And then make matters worse by saying that they're doing so out of love.) So I'll do what I can to defend homosexual men and women from such unwarranted attacks.

David.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Well, on the issue of homosexual sex specifically, I don't believe it's a sin because, on prayerful consideration of the issues involved, I believe that the texts usually used to condemn homosexual sex have either been mis-interpreted or mis-translated to say something more or something other than they actually say.

The romans passage is pretty clear on the subject, not sure how to misinterpret that one.

I also believe that it's unlikely to be something God places much importance on (even if I'm wrong and it is a sin) given that there are so many genuine evils going on in the world (murder, war, rape, child abuse, extreme poverty, just for a few examples).

David.

What is the weight of an individual sin? Enough to where a person who lives a completely sinless life and sins only one time, regardless of what sin it is, will fall short of God's measuring stick. There are many things in this world that are much worse (murder etc) than same-sex sex, but that does not at all negate the seriousness of any sin.

 

[MercyBurst]

you just told me that shellfish are only sinful if you BELIEVE it is... why is homosexuality different?

Eating Shellfish are dietary, and not particularly good for your health, but this is not behavioral conduct-related. Gay-sex is a relationship that draws two people into immorality.

You might say a rule is a rule, and indeed it is. But there is a big difference between a traffic citation and 1st degree murder which are both behavioral/conduct offenses.

Also, a doctor might restict your diet from high cloresterol foods like shellfish. You don't get a trial for eating shellfish.

 

[MercyBurst]

From one of the things that mercyburst said earlier ("They bow down to worship the one they adore") I can't help thinking that he's got something else in mind than anal sex...

David.

yes indeed, and I question whether anything that gays do is acceptable conduct for heteros even in a marriage. I will make a thread thusly.