Well, we don't disagree there.
We have that
I beg to differ. I do think it's a human right, albeit not a very pretty one. However, I think it's against OBOB guidelines to argue that, so I won't.
Of course you beg to differ. That's why we disagree. If you and I agreed that this was not a human right anymore than me stealing your computer is a human right then all we would have left to disagree on is method.
...Which, ironically, is why you won't stop abortion either.
I'm loath to compare child abuse and rape with abortion. It's unfair to both sides of the argument and I don't think it convinces anyone who isn't pro-life already.
There are indeed differences and important ones at that. But my point is this. If we make something illegal and that makes that crime go up, does that mean we should make it legal so the number of instances goes down? Sometimes that may be a very wise approach like with dangerous drugs. I think the programs that are in certain parts of Europe (perhaps your own country??? I don't know that for sure) heroine is not illegal but that's not because the country is wishing to promote heroine use. It's so people can more freely seek help and the courts can even intervene in this way. Heroine doesn't take away other people's rights except those of the person who decided to use. But Abortion (like other crimes against humanity) does take away others right. So a nation cannot aide and abed such a crime regardless of how it affects the number of instances. Just like child abuse can't be made legal (because then even if in making it legal it for some odd reason went down, the children who still are getting abuse have no one at all to turn to) neither can abortion. The US says "You may abort humans". That's wrong.
Now... if the US said "It is illegal to abort human beings because we cannot condone something which is objectively an assault on humanity. However, we understand that these women are not akin to rapists and child abusers. They are scared. They don't know what to do and throwing them in prison is not helping the mother or the child." that would be a different matter.
Antigone, no comparison is perfect and I agree that comparing rape and child abuse to abortion, if compared in the wrong aspects, is a terrible misunderstanding of what the majority of women go through when they are considering or go through with an abortion. They need to be shown love before and, if they make the grave error, after. They are not monsters of society. Society, in this case, is actually the monster because we have trained her to believe that such is a right. She is the victim. I mean that seriously and not condescendingly.
I know that your heart is in the right place. I get that and up until the past year, I would say your heart was more in the right place than mine and may still be. I am not judging you because I truly believe that the "rights" issue just hasn't clicked with you yet.
I'll tell you this too. I really do (as much as a man can get it) get what people mean with "how dare you tell me what to do with my own body"? I mean, I get how that can seem extremely intrusive and even BE extremely intrusive. I mean, if I have an appendix burst or want to get liposuction or... anything, I can do that. How dare anyone tell me I can't do what I want. And if I have a cancer in my body and someone decides that I can't take that out... who are they? It's MY body. I get it. I feel it (as best I can). Again, I don't think the initial reaction is monstrous. But we have to step back and realize that this isn't just a cancer (even though it probably understandably feels like it to the scared mother). It's a human being. This cuts to the core of what it means to be human. It's what all of us were. I was never a sperm. I was never egg. I was personally a zygote though. THAT is what makes me who I am. That zygote is a human being. This is not just about human rights (although it is) it's just about as deep as the issue can get. It's about humanity.
But, the women is a human too. In fact, she is a person, with feelings. So, (and I think you and I will agree here) when we treat this just like a political issue and treat her like the selfish monsterous person that none of us would ever be or have ever been on a regular basis, we treat her like a baby maker... an impersonal oven that just makes babies. Once she has the baby we give a sigh of relief and phew! we're done. As you said, we're not done.
As I said, this is about society being the monster. Society tells her that abortion is her right and that same society calls her lazy for not getting a job but offers no help. That's not pro-life. That's just anti-abortion. I can be anti-[insert bad thing here] but that doesn't make my overall position any more true if I am missing everything else (such as a duty to compassion and charity).
Again, that's a matter of opinion. I don't think legalising abortion has a bad effect on a nation, even if I'd like to see it stopped. However, like I said, I won't argue that line of thought out here incase the mods are on the war path.
Of course you wouldn't say that. You believe it's a human right. Human rights have to come before statistics. A government has no right to ever ever every trample on a human right regardless of what that trampling does to statistics. So, it would seem that you believe that (regardless of if the OPs stats are true or not) ILlegalizing abortion would be a human tragedy. Right? I am asking you seriously. PM me if you are afraid of the mods. This is a pivotal point. Because as much as you see abortion as a human right, I see it as trampling on the most fundamental human right there is. But perhaps my questions reveals some misunderstanding on my part of your position.
But I have thought about it. I'm not just repeating left-wing talking points.
Antigone. As much as I disagree with you on most things, I know you are a person who thinks and doesn't just regurgitate things you hear. You have very succinct reasons for believing what you do. That is why I was very purposeful in saying that I don't believe you have "completely" thought everything out. I know that I haven't completely thought out everything in this complicated issue and I will come to new realizations with the help of you and others on both sides of the fence. I am stating here that this (about abortion being a human right) is one pivotal area I am pointing out where I don't think you have (for whatever reason) come to terms with yet. It won't happen in this conversation and it may never happen. But maybe it will. I hope so.
I know it seems paradoxical to want to end abortion and to want it legalised at the same time,
paradox doesn't worry me. Christianity is pardoxical.
but I think that encouraging women to pursue other options while keeping abortion legal will, in the end, save the most lives. I'm pragmatic.
But then I have to go back to the point that worries me the most. The fact you want to keep it legal is not what worries me the most. I know pro-life people who are pragmatic like you. I don't agree with their perspective, but I do see them on the same side of the fence as me. They detest abortion and all that. It's purely pragmatic. But, where they differ from you is that they don't see abortion as a human right. That's what concerns me FAR beyond anything about your stance. It actually surprises me a bit. That's not a paradox. That belief is a lie that you did not create but that you unwittingly (because I believe you sincerely don't see my point yet. I think you Catholics call that invincible ignorance or something like that) perpetuate. That's what I hope you will reconsider.
God bless you, sister in Christ,
Josh
