Rate of Abortion is highest in countries where it is illegal

[StThomasMore]

I recently read a 4-page article written by a woman who had an illegal partial birth abortion in the decade before Roe v. Wade. Instead of focusing on her own experience, she talked about risks involved and quoted doctors saying that deaths from botched or incomplete abortions all but disappeared after Roe v. Wade because then abortions could be done in proper medical clinics and hospitals.

I felt sick reading about the plight of women seeking illegal abortions. Scary, scary things involved. Obviously I don't support abortion, but the article spelled out to me that if a woman wants an abortion, she is going to get one, illegal or not, safe or not... which is why I feel we need to work hard with social programs to support pregnant women in addition to dealing with legality.

If someone goes into a procedure that they know is risky, illegal, and dangerous, and still does it, that is more related to carelessness, foolishness, and reckless behavior. The reckless behavior from past women who knowingly put their life on the line does not justify the legalizing of abortion. Instead of making abortion legal because of reckless behavior, one should get to the root cause instead, which is why a woman wants to take the life of her child in the first place, and what makes her so reckless that she will put her life on the line to kill her own baby.

The idea that abortion is safe now is more lies and pro-abortion propaganda. Deaths from abortion still exist, women still die. Abortion clinics today have a very 'hush hush' system when it comes to abortions they have botched. In many instances the ambulance isn't called because the abortion doctor doesn't wanna make a scene, and instead they have the nurse drive them to a cheap county hospital. Records are usually kept secret and kept out of the media and news.

Illegality is a great deterrence to doing something. If it were legal to rob stores, robbing would go up exponentially. Before abortion was legalized less than 500,000 children were aborted each year. In the early 1930's it was around 20,000 children a year. Today it is over 5,000,000 a year. Legalizing abortion has definitely raised abortion rates exponentially.

Abortion is not a safe procedure. Legal or illegal. And botched abortions in the past do not justify legalizing it because of the ethical problems that will always arise.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Abortion rates are higher in countries where the procedure is illegal and nearly half of all abortions worldwide are unsafe, with the vast majority in developing countries, a new study concludes.

Experts could not say whether more liberal laws led to fewer procedures, but said good access to birth control in those countries resulted in fewer unwanted pregnancies.

The global abortion rate remained virtually unchanged from 2003 to 2008, at about 28 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15 to 44, a total of about 43.8 million abortions, according to the study. The rate had previously been dropping since 1995.

Continued:
Rate of abortion is highest in countries where practice is banned - Health News - Health & Families - The Independent

I know that in OBOB, many of us are hopeful that making abortion illegal would somehow prevent it... but this article's stats tell us that that just isn't the case.

What do you think?

Ok, sooooo here is my thinking - i like logical...
And logically - illegal doctors are not going to fess up to
1) Doing a procedure
2) Deaths that would incur from doing said illegal procedure.

SO where exactly are their stats coming from?

Remember the man who funded - or started NARAL - said he created these stats - and confessed to it - as an agenda to push legal abortion?

So i am uncertain this article actually did statistical research - because i know of no one willing to freely implicate themselves....
And go to jail just to pass on a stat.

And i am quite willing to believe this is still the fall out from the false reporting of NARAL to push thhe agenda even today.

Am i wrong?

 

[Fantine]

Illegality is a great deterrence to doing something.

This is an observation I have made about sexually active young women who will continue being sexually active and who would never consider NFP seriously,

If they have a legal abortion (or give birth) they walk out of their 6 week checkup with an IUD or an implanon or a method of birth control that is rated as "more effective than sterilization." Of course, they may walk out with a tubal ligation, too.

If they have an illegal abortion (in countries where abortion is illegal) they have no medical intervention. They continue having sex. They continue getting pregnant. They continue having illegal abortions.

This is not a moral judgment. It's an observation I have made from observing young mothers I know. If they gave birth, or had a legal abortion, they did not get pregnant again (I am looking about three years out.)

I am sure they would not have remained abstinent (some were living with their bf's when they gave birth, and are still unmarried.) I am sure they would not have practiced NFP.

And so if there are more illegal abortions than legal ones, that is probably the reason.

 

[S.ilvio]

I recently read a 4-page article written by a woman who had an illegal partial birth abortion in the decade before Roe v. Wade. Instead of focusing on her own experience, she talked about risks involved and quoted doctors saying that deaths from botched or incomplete abortions all but disappeared after Roe v. Wade because then abortions could be done in proper medical clinics and hospitals.

I felt sick reading about the plight of women seeking illegal abortions. Scary, scary things involved. Obviously I don't support abortion, but the article spelled out to me that if a woman wants an abortion, she is going to get one, illegal or not, safe or not... which is why I feel we need to work hard with social programs to support pregnant women in addition to dealing with legality.

So to clarify, on principle, do you think it best to make abortion legal or illegal...

 

[S.ilvio]

Sarah Palin is an example of a parent who is strongly Pro-Life and didn't judge or condemn her daughter when she got pregnant. And the so-called "Pro-Choice" people hated her for that because she doesn't fit their false dichotomy of someone who is strongly Pro-Life. It's interesting that the only ones who did condemn the pregnancy are the ones who call themselves "Pro-Choice".

This is actually quite true.

It sickened me, as a Liberal Catholic on mant issues to see the likes of Rachel Maddow snide slurs at the Palin pregnancy. It's so true when some folk speak of the illiberal attitude of some 'liberals'...

The same could be said of Gene Rbinson, another MSNBC contributor, who made disgusting jibes at the way the Santorum family dealt with the death of their baby.

I'm an MSNBC supporter and think Hardball is the most honest political debate show on US TV but there are some nasty pieces of work there also...

 

[StThomasMore]

This is an observation I have made about sexually active young women who will continue being sexually active and who would never consider NFP seriously,

If they have a legal abortion (or give birth) they walk out of their 6 week checkup with an IUD or an implanon or a method of birth control that is rated as "more effective than sterilization." Of course, they may walk out with a tubal ligation, too.

If they have an illegal abortion (in countries where abortion is illegal) they have no medical intervention. They continue having sex. They continue getting pregnant. They continue having illegal abortions.

This is not a moral judgment. It's an observation I have made from observing young mothers I know. If they gave birth, or had a legal abortion, they did not get pregnant again (I am looking about three years out.)

I am sure they would not have remained abstinent (some were living with their bf's when they gave birth, and are still unmarried.) I am sure they would not have practiced NFP.

And so if there are more illegal abortions than legal ones, that is probably the reason.

Around 95% of the world allows abortion. There are only a small amount of areas were abortion is illegal. Mostly, Maldives, Malta, Vatican City, Laos, Chilie, Uruguay, Tuvalu, Belize, Cyprus, Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic.

Can anyone find the abortion rates in these countries and compare them to notable countries with liberal abortions laws like the US, UK, China, and Austrialia?

Per capita wise, Russia, Romania and Vietnam have the highest rates. As far as sheer numbers go, China, Russia and the US are the highest. All countries have legalized abortion.

 

[Joshua G.]

I thought Ireland didn't either?

 

[S.ilvio]

I thought Ireland didn't either?

Right on...

 

[MoNiCa4316]

hmm.. I read that when abortion was legalized in the US, or Canada, the numbers really increased. Maybe it depends on the study. It's hard to say without looking at the studies themselves.

I would say this though, - a country that accepts the killing of its most vulnerable as normal, can't be going in the right direction.

 

[Antigone]

Around 95% of the world allows abortion. There are only a small amount of areas were abortion is illegal. Mostly, Maldives, Malta, Vatican City, Laos, Chilie, Uruguay, Tuvalu, Belize, Cyprus, Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic.

Can anyone find the abortion rates in these countries and compare them to notable countries with liberal abortions laws like the US, UK, China, and Austrialia?

You can't do that.

Or maybe you can, but to do it properly you would have to delve into the historic, legal, socio-economic and medical situations of all of these countries. That would be so complex you could write a PhD. thesis about that.

 

[Joshua G.]

Am I right?

 

[MikeK]

around 46 million abortions happen worldwide. 26 million were legal and 20 million illegal. So "legal" abortions have the higher rate of 6 million children killed.

This is shocking to me, I would not have guessed that women were that likely to pursure illegal abortions. I always figured "make it illegal and women will get them anyway at or near the same rates) was pro-choice rhetoric.

 

[Joshua G.]

It seems I was right according to Wikipedia.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion

Abortion in Ireland is illegal unless the pregnancy is in threat of endangering the life of the woman (as differential to her health) through continuance of the pregnancy.

Interesting caveat about the legality of abortion in the case of a woman's life being risked:

while it is legal in theory, the body that holds medical licences in Ireland considers it malpractice for any doctor to perform an abortion

 

[Joshua G.]

I do wonder in the case of making it illegal, what would this mean in terms of it being enforced? It seems counterproductive to send the woman to jail (unless it is purely to surveille her until the child is born, but I don't know how realistic this is) but it does seem perfectly right to send the abortionist to prison for manslaughter or what have you. I get the cold logic of sending a woman to prison but again it seems counter-productive.

I wonder if it would need to be something more similar to how some countries treat drug use where it's illegal but they don't send the heroine addict to prison, rather they mandate programs to help them overcome their addiction.

I am firmly against any country legalizing abortion.. that is, a country recognizing this as one's "right". That simply cannot be condoned. However, overturning Roe v Wade is going to open a whole can of worms that I believe the Pro-life movement in most of its forms (that is- "we") is NOT ready for.

 

[MikeK]

However, overturning Roe v Wade is going to open a whole can of worms that I believe the Pro-life movement in most of its forms (that is- "we") is NOT ready for.

Unfortunately, it looks like we're going to have a long time to figure that out.

 

[Joshua G.]

hmm.. I read that when abortion was legalized in the US, or Canada, the numbers really increased. Maybe it depends on the study. It's hard to say without looking at the studies themselves.

I would say this though, - a country that accepts the killing of its most vulnerable as normal, can't be going in the right direction.

I know someone already said this, but the man who co-founded NARAL later said that the numbers they gave of illegal abortions per year (which the government used to form abortion legislation) were grossly exaggerated. He said this, of course, after leaving the abortion industry and becoming a staunch pro-life activist. The difference according to him was amazing. It was something like 200K claimed by NARAL when it was really more like 200-500 per year.

I have a feeling that that would NOT be the case today if it is made once again illegal. Our culture is so much more indoctrinated with the idea of abortion as a solution. The best analogy that comes to mind (which, please don't take too far) is like telling a sexually active couple living together to no longer engage in pre-marital sex. It's turning what was always socially acceptable and freely available to them into forbidden fruit.

 

[Joshua G.]

Unfortunately, it looks like we're going to have a long to to figure that out.

I agree with you on that.

More and more, though, I'm realizing that the campaign is so focused on RvW that I think most who call themselves pro-life have some dillusion that over-turning that law is even HALF the battle. It may or may not be, but many are not realizing that that other half of the battle (for the minds and souls of these women and even men) will get even harder than it is right now. So much more difficult. Almost a whole new game. And then, I think that will really separate the wheat from the chaff (the truly pro-life from the politically pro-life... I pray I am the former) because that's when the real sacrifices on our parts come. I fear that when abortion becomes illegal many of us will fall into this false sense of having done what we can to protect babies. Like, "Hey, now if she does it, she goes to prison" rather than "I pray she doesn't do this (regardless of prison time), how can we help her learn about alternatives. Really the battle is the same... just harder and trickier.

I'm talking in circles. Does any one get what I mean? I don't why but this reality is really starting to hit home for me.

 

[Antigone]

More and more, though, I'm realizing that the campaign is so focused on RvW that I think most who call themselves pro-life have some dillusion that over-turning that law is even HALF the battle. It may or may not be, but many are not realizing that that other half of the battle (for the minds and souls of these women and even men) will get even harder than it is right now. So much more difficult. Almost a whole new game. And then, I think that will really separate the wheat from the chaff (the truly pro-life from the politically pro-life... I pray I am the former) because that's when the real sacrifices on our parts come. I fear that when abortion becomes illegal many of us will fall into this false sense of having done what we can to protect babies. Like, "Hey, now if she does it, she goes to prison" rather than "I pray she doesn't do this (regardless of prison time), how can we help her learn about alternatives. Really the battle is the same... just harder and trickier.

I'm what most people would call pro-choice - I do see it as a women's rights issue too - but they tend to forget I'd be just as thrilled as they'd be to see abortion stopped.

Like you, I think that an anti-abortion law would be ineffective. I think any pro-life policy should be two-pronged:

1. I don't think most women who have an abortion take the decision lightly, but some do. I also think it's insulting to those women to say that they don't realise that that 'lump of cells' won't grow into a baby. I also also think waving bloody placards in their faces is counter-productive. I do think, however, that a non-judgemental cup of tea and cookies goes a long way. You can offer women options without rubbing it in their face.

2. There should be far, far more facilities for pregnant women who choose to abort for financial reasons. I think that too often people shove a second-hand cot and a bunch of baby clothes at these women and that's that. There needs to be a comprehensive long-term plan for financial support.

I don't think you'll ever stop abortion - an early trimester abortion, especially, isn't very difficult to do - but for an anti-abortion law to be truly succesful you have to change minds and change lives before it's implemented.

 

[Joshua G.]

I'm what most people would call pro-choice - I do see it as a women's rights issue too - but they tend to forget I'd be just as thrilled as they'd be to see abortion stopped.

Like you, I think that an anti-abortion law would be ineffective.

I apologize for not being clearer. I believe it will be ineffective in the short-term. And much the opposite, there will be a lot of growing pains to say the least. But, in the long-run it's essential that we can regain our sanity as to understand what a right is and what it is not. My entire generation does not get that this is not a right. In making it illegal we are not taking away any right. Abortion has never been a right any more than stealing your neighbor's horse in the lawless west.

I think any pro-life policy should be two-pronged:

1. I don't think most women who have an abortion take the decision lightly, but some do. I also think it's insulting to those women to say that they don't realise that that 'lump of cells' won't grow into a baby. I also also think waving bloody placards in their faces is counter-productive.

agreed (with the bolded part).

I do think, however, that a non-judgemental cup of tea and cookies goes a long way. You can offer women options without rubbing it in their face.

Agreed.

2. There should be far, far more facilities for pregnant women who choose to abort for financial reasons. I think that too often people shove a second-hand cot and a bunch of baby clothes at these women and that's that. There needs to be a comprehensive long-term plan for financial support.

I agree. Many pro-life movements do this (I am not saying you are denying this, but it is a common pro-choice starwman to assume this doesn't happen).

I don't think you'll ever stop abortion

You'll never stop child abuse or rape either.

- an early trimester abortion, especially, isn't very difficult to do - but for an anti-abortion law to be truly succesful you have to change minds and change lives before it's implemented.

It's beside the point. You can't have a healthy nation condoning abortion. Now, I didn't say what the penalties should be. That mmight be where understanding comes in. But a nation canNOT say "well, it's a bad choice, but that's your right". It needs to say "that's not a right anyone holds." Because that's the truth. how that's "dealt with" (therapeutically or through punishment) is a different question (and very important).

And that's where you lose me, Antigone. Not in your compassion and so on. (That's where you win me and make an example for me). Rather, that you recognize it as a right and one that needs to be defended. I don't think your stance is completely thought-out.

 

[S.ilvio]

It seems I was right according to Wikipedia. Interesting caveat about the legality of abortion in the case of a woman's life being risked:

I confirmed you were right already. The Irish flag in my profile should have been a big hint...