Rate of Abortion is highest in countries where it is illegal

[StThomasMore]

No, I'm sure they don't.

But I don't see a state like NY (where I lived many years) ever banning abortion. Republicans in NY are often more liberal than Democrats in the Bible Belt.

I was in college when NY made abortion legal...it was, I think, around 1970. Before that, girls in NY would fly to Puerto Rico, where abortion was legal even before it was legal in NY. It didn't take Roe v. Wade to make abortion legal in NY, and ending Roe v. Wade won't end abortion in NY.

Nevertheless, if those 13 states (mostly on the west and east coasts) continued to keep abortion legal, women would go there.

The way the girls I went to college with used to fly down to Puerto Rico.

What is interesting is its not Roe V Wade that made abortion widespread. Since Roe v Wade allowed abortion only in cases of things like extreme danger to the health of mother i.e - abortion only in cases of rape, severe fetal deformity, or the possibility of severe or fatal injury to the mother. This is why many states were able to keep abortion illegal in most other cases.

The real battle that needs to be fought in abortion isn't Roe v Wade, but rather Doe v. Bolton, which redefined the "health of the mother", in which it stated that, "at 1058, that the medical judgment may be exercised in the light of all factors - physical, emotional, psychological, familial, and the woman's age - relevant to the well-being of the patient. All these factors may relate to health."

This is what made abortion boom after the court ruling. As women could get abortions under any reason that could be disguised under the "health of the mother". whether it be that she is just depressed, or her family doesn't want it, or because she has psychological stress. That means women who are simply depressed or have emotional excuses are enough reasons to be regarded as having relevance to the "health of the mother".

 

[Antigone]

Sigh.

I hate to say I told you so, but...

No, wait. I don't.

I told you so.

 

[Memento Mori]

I'm wary of drawing conclusions from these statistics about what would happen in the U.S. if abortion was illegal again. Even if I did embrace the underlying assumption here, I'm uncomfortable with the heavy consequentialism in this thread. Reducing the number of abortions to zero is obviously the number one goal of the pro-life movement, but it is also true that there is an intrinsic value in aligning our civic law with the natural moral law, even if there is a possibility that this will correlate with more frequent offenses against both. A nation does a great violence to itself when it erects unjust laws, and while that effect is not as easily measured as the number of abortions obtained yearly, it does immeasurable damage to the culture over time. We know this... we're living it.

 

[Ave Maria]

Even if this is true, that is still not a reason to keep abortion legal. Instead these nations need to more effectively enforce their pro-life laws.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Even if this is true, that is still not a reason to keep abortion legal. Instead these nations need to more effectively enforce their pro-life laws.

Amen

 

[Blackwater Babe]

I'm wary of drawing conclusions from these statistics about what would happen in the U.S. if abortion was illegal again. Even if I did embrace the underlying assumption here, I'm uncomfortable with the heavy consequentialism in this thread. Reducing the number of abortions to zero is obviously the number one goal of the pro-life movement, but it is also true that there is an intrinsic value in aligning our civic law with the natural moral law, even if there is a possibility that this will correlate with more frequent offenses against both. A nation does a great violence to itself when it erects unjust laws, and while that effect is not as easily measured as the number of abortions obtained yearly, it does immeasurable damage to the culture over time. We know this... we're living it.

Theresz an easy way to reduce the number of abortions to near zero, but the hidden agenda of the pro-life movement won't come at it.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Theresz an easy way to reduce the number of abortions to near zero, but the hidden agenda of the pro-life movement won't come at it.

What?!

You can't just say you know and not share... that is not fair!

 

[Blackwater Babe]

What?!

You can't just say you know and not share... that is not fair!

Oh, sorry... ok have an opt out implanon program for girls given with their 15 year old tetanus, and replace every three years, until declined or requested removed.

Sure, there will still be a few unplanned pregnancies, but it would be pretty hard for any one to argue their pregnancy was unwanted.

Obviously medically necesary abortions would still be a thing, but elective abortions would become virtually unknown.

 

[Fantine]

China has almost 8 million abortions a year.

Most are due to its "one child" policy.

Almost all are abortions of female fetuses.

Adoptable female babies are China's only export to the US, helping to modify the trade imbalance.

Maybe feminism will help this widespread discimination and devaluation of women in China and in India, which begins even in the womb. Certainly feminists are speaking out against it, loudly and strongly.

(BTW, when Bishop Dolan spoke out against the 90% abortion rate of Down Syndrome fetuses, why didn't he talk about the abortion rate for female fetuses in India and China--and other countries? This is a much more widespread problem.)

 

[Blackwater Babe]

China has almost 8 million abortions a year.

Most are due to its "one child" policy.

Almost all are abortions of female fetuses.

Adoptable female babies are China's only export to the US, helping to modify the trade imbalance.

Maybe feminism will help this widespread discimination and devaluation of women in China and in India, which begins even in the womb. Certainly feminists are speaking out against it, loudly and strongly.

(BTW, when Bishop Dolan spoke out against the 90% abortion rate of Down Syndrome fetuses, why didn't he talk about the abortion rate for female fetuses in India and China--and other countries? This is a much more widespread problem.)

I just provided a solution to abortion

 

[MKJ]

I posted the article because I found it interesting. I had an inkling that outlawing abortion wouldn't affect the abortion rate much. I also think we need to look at other ways we can discourage abortion and give women real choices.

This follows to me because I don't think you are going to get abortion made illegal anyway unless you have a lot more than 51% of people supporting that. With that kind of split, not only is there no real advantage for politicians to make such laws, it probably isn't possible. (And in fact there is advantage for them to publicly oppose abortion while actually doing nothing.)

And ou are right, even if they did, it half the population, or 40%, still actually believes that abortion is ok, they will still get them. It is not hard for a woman to have an early term abortion in her own home with no one knowing about it.

So I find myself wondering why anti-abortion groups spend so much time on the legal status of abortion at all. Unless they convince real people, they are not going to get any action politically, and it won't be that effective if they do.

It should be what the military calls a" hearts and minds" campaign.

 

[MikeK]

Prohibbiting popular things just doesn't work, unless you have a government with secret police and a populace that lives in constant fear. Unless the United States shows far more interest in heavy-handed brutality, they will never be able to successfully ban abortion, marijuana, alcohol or firearms in any meaningful way.

Abortion should be made illegal. There are methods of reducing abortion that would contribute more to a reduction in abortions than an outright ban would. These methods must also be employed if we' going to call ourselves pro-life.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

The Pro-Life people in the Church are the same ones who believe 100% in all the teachings of the Church. And they get criticized because of that. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to try to separate them from the charity that the Church does. They are one in the same. Sorry that the truth doesn't fit with what you want them to be.

You can get me and Mikey (if he'll let me speak for him) to shut up one this if you can give us one example of a pro-life organization that supported, with the full weight of pro-life "abortion is murder", "We will get you in the next election" lobbying a bill that would reduce abortions but would require actual money to implement.

And yes Baby, I think that little of most politically active pro-life organizations so its unnecessary to post one of your "So you deny..." thingies.

 

[S.ilvio]

90% abortion rate of Down Syndrome fetuses

Is this statistic accurate? Tragic...

 

[BabyChristian22]

You can get me and Mikey (if he'll let me speak for him) to shut up one this if you can give us one example of a pro-life organization that supported, with the full weight of pro-life "abortion is murder", "We will get you in the next election" lobbying a bill that would reduce abortions but would require actual money to implement.

And yes Baby, I think that little of most politically active pro-life organizations so its unnecessary to post one of your "So you deny..." thingies.

You want me to find where a Pro-Life organization agrees with you on HOW poor people should be helped. Not everyone agrees that the government is the end all be all of helping the poor. The government has a duty to the poor, but they are only part of the answer. Like I told MikeK, just because someone who is Pro-Life doesn't agree with HOW poor people can be best helped doesn't mean that they don't think poor people should be helped.

 

[FullyMT]

China has almost 8 million abortions a year.

Most are due to its "one child" policy.

Almost all are abortions of female fetuses.

Adoptable female babies are China's only export to the US, helping to modify the trade imbalance.

Maybe feminism will help this widespread discimination and devaluation of women in China and in India, which begins even in the womb. Certainly feminists are speaking out against it, loudly and strongly.

(BTW, when Bishop Dolan spoke out against the 90% abortion rate of Down Syndrome fetuses, why didn't he talk about the abortion rate for female fetuses in India and China--and other countries? This is a much more widespread problem.)

Maybe he was focusing on the USA?

 

[Joshua G.]

Abortion rates are higher in countries where the procedure is illegal and nearly half of all abortions worldwide are unsafe, with the vast majority in developing countries, a new study concludes.

Experts could not say whether more liberal laws led to fewer procedures, but said good access to birth control in those countries resulted in fewer unwanted pregnancies.

The global abortion rate remained virtually unchanged from 2003 to 2008, at about 28 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15 to 44, a total of about 43.8 million abortions, according to the study. The rate had previously been dropping since 1995.

Continued:
Rate of abortion is highest in countries where practice is banned - Health News - Health & Families - The Independent

I know that in OBOB, many of us are hopeful that making abortion illegal would somehow prevent it... but this article's stats tell us that that just isn't the case.

What do you think?

YOu have to wonder what other factors there are and the accuracy of the data.

But as others have said, it's really not the point. I know I am preaching to the choir, but if we were to say "armed robbery is lower in places where robbery is legal" then would we really say that's justice?

I think the usefulness of this is for us in the pro-life camp to realize that the legal issue is relaly just a very very very small part of the entire movement. If we are successful in overturning roe v wade in any significant way, the real work has only begun. Unlike the pre-RvW days, we would not not only be battling the normal demons that lead women in desperate situations seeking out illegal abortions but we would also be battling a culture that, unlike that of the early 70s and before, has been raised inculcated with the idea that abortion is a right.

For the pro-choice side, this isnt' about life or death. They respond to taht issue only because the pro-life side forces them too. What drives them is what their (very apt) label proclaims: choice. It's all about choice regardless of what one believes about life. So we are as a culture, trained to see abortion as a choice.

I think this also should draw our attention to something else. Good girls who are raised conservatively and pro-life get pregnant. I wonder who feels more pressure to hide this? The girl who everyone says is "good" and "would never do that" or the girl who everyone assumes is a "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" and would probably have 5 babies by the time she's 20 years old. My point is that there are a lot of "good girls" getting abortions secretly. If Roe v Wade is overturned, how many of these good girls are going to be deterred? They are already being more secretive about their legal abortion than any girl who everyone had already written off in their head. In the minds of the "good girls" there is not much separating their decision from the girl who decided to have an illegal abortion in the 60s.

Please understand, my point is not that girls who get pregnant are bad or [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. I don't believe that at all. So, I don't believe that legal or illegal is necessarily going to change things much. IN fact, right now at least there is the added advantage of knowing where they will go so we could pray there and try to gently offer them alternate choices. Once it's pushed underground, our job gets a LOT more difficult.

I am not at all saying it should be legal. It shouldn't becuase it is evil and attacks the very core of what humanity is. But a question we need to ask is how is the enforced or punished? Do we make it perhaps make it punishable for the "doctor" and not for the mother? I mean, how does it protect the baby to send a mother to prison?

A lot of tough questions and this is not a simple issue.

Josh

 

[Gwendolyn]

I recently read a 4-page article written by a woman who had an illegal partial birth abortion in the decade before Roe v. Wade. Instead of focusing on her own experience, she talked about risks involved and quoted doctors saying that deaths from botched or incomplete abortions all but disappeared after Roe v. Wade because then abortions could be done in proper medical clinics and hospitals.

I felt sick reading about the plight of women seeking illegal abortions. Scary, scary things involved. Obviously I don't support abortion, but the article spelled out to me that if a woman wants an abortion, she is going to get one, illegal or not, safe or not... which is why I feel we need to work hard with social programs to support pregnant women in addition to dealing with legality.

 

[BabyChristian22]

YOu have to wonder what other factors there are and the accuracy of the data.

But as others have said, it's really not the point. I know I am preaching to the choir, but if we were to say "armed robbery is lower in places where robbery is legal" then would we really say that's justice?

I think the usefulness of this is for us in the pro-life camp to realize that the legal issue is relaly just a very very very small part of the entire movement. If we are successful in overturning roe v wade in any significant way, the real work has only begun. Unlike the pre-RvW days, we would not not only be battling the normal demons that lead women in desperate situations seeking out illegal abortions but we would also be battling a culture that, unlike that of the early 70s and before, has been raised inculcated with the idea that abortion is a right.

For the pro-choice side, this isnt' about life or death. They respond to taht issue only because the pro-life side forces them too. What drives them is what their (very apt) label proclaims: choice. It's all about choice regardless of what one believes about life. So we are as a culture, trained to see abortion as a choice.

I think this also should draw our attention to something else. Good girls who are raised conservatively and pro-life get pregnant. I wonder who feels more pressure to hide this? The girl who everyone says is "good" and "would never do that" or the girl who everyone assumes is a "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" and would probably have 5 babies by the time she's 20 years old. My point is that there are a lot of "good girls" getting abortions secretly. If Roe v Wade is overturned, how many of these good girls are going to be deterred? They are already being more secretive about their legal abortion than any girl who everyone had already written off in their head. In the minds of the "good girls" there is not much separating their decision from the girl who decided to have an illegal abortion in the 60s.

Please understand, my point is not that girls who get pregnant are bad or [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. I don't believe that at all. So, I don't believe that legal or illegal is necessarily going to change things much. IN fact, right now at least there is the added advantage of knowing where they will go so we could pray there and try to gently offer them alternate choices. Once it's pushed underground, our job gets a LOT more difficult.

I am not at all saying it should be legal. It shouldn't becuase it is evil and attacks the very core of what humanity is. But a question we need to ask is how is the enforced or punished? Do we make it perhaps make it punishable for the "doctor" and not for the mother? I mean, how does it protect the baby to send a mother to prison?

A lot of tough questions and this is not a simple issue.

Josh

Sarah Palin is an example of a parent who is strongly Pro-Life and didn't judge or condemn her daughter when she got pregnant. And the so-called "Pro-Choice" people hated her for that because she doesn't fit their false dichotomy of someone who is strongly Pro-Life. It's interesting that the only ones who did condemn the pregnancy are the ones who call themselves "Pro-Choice".

 

[StThomasMore]

China has almost 8 million abortions a year.

Most are due to its "one child" policy.

Almost all are abortions of female fetuses.

Adoptable female babies are China's only export to the US, helping to modify the trade imbalance.

Maybe feminism will help this widespread discimination and devaluation of women in China and in India, which begins even in the womb. Certainly feminists are speaking out against it, loudly and strongly.

(BTW, when Bishop Dolan spoke out against the 90% abortion rate of Down Syndrome fetuses, why didn't he talk about the abortion rate for female fetuses in India and China--and other countries? This is a much more widespread problem.)

The last thing feminists want to do is lower abortion. Any type of lowering of abortion would be a threat to their freedom of choice movement. Not to mention the utter havoc they wage on marriage and the family unit.

India has a much lower rate of abortion than the US(around 3 times lower). China comes in first because of its extremely aggressive legalized abortion laws. Which is why the article in the OP is wrong, since the countries with highest abortion have all legalized abortion. Vietnam is the 4th highest. And also it has one of the most liberal legalized abortion campaigns in the world.

The countries with the lowest abortion rates are actually countries where it is illegal. Like Malta. Malta has one of the lowest abortion rates in the world. And of course Vatican City.