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Rapture
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deu58
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Hi Dad Ernie
Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Re 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Re 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
How do you explain these Verses above. I mean people who are entering the 1000 year reign should be saved in Christ but I have also heard it argued that the decieved multitude are the children of those who survived the tribulation without taking the mark
but did not accept Christ either. It seems strange to me that with Christ here with us that there would still be those who reject him. It does say he will rule with a rod of iron
so apparently it will be a hard rule but still a just rule. Do you think it is possible that we will still have our rebellious natures and there are some christians who will reject Jesus to follow Satan again. Really does not make sense but then again a lot of human behavior today does not really make much sense any way.
yours in Christ
deu58
Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Re 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Re 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
How do you explain these Verses above. I mean people who are entering the 1000 year reign should be saved in Christ but I have also heard it argued that the decieved multitude are the children of those who survived the tribulation without taking the mark
but did not accept Christ either. It seems strange to me that with Christ here with us that there would still be those who reject him. It does say he will rule with a rod of iron
so apparently it will be a hard rule but still a just rule. Do you think it is possible that we will still have our rebellious natures and there are some christians who will reject Jesus to follow Satan again. Really does not make sense but then again a lot of human behavior today does not really make much sense any way.
yours in Christ
deu58
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Dad Ernie
Well-Known Member
Greetings Justme,Justme said:
I believe I have already responded to this in my last post.
Actually, I thought you had been saying that we WERE in agreement on most everything.
Yes, I believe the "time of distress" is the same as the "great tribulation".
Next?
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
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Hi Ernie,
I agree with lots of your posts, but not the sequence of events of these resurrections as I understand it now.
The next thing I look at is the first resurrection of Rev 20.
Verses 4 and 6 spell out who the participants in the first resurrection are and as I see it lay out the parameters of who can be included in this first resurrection.
They must have been in contact with the tribulation in order to resist the beast.
The participants are blessed and will take part in the 1000 year reign with Christ.
I guess my main concern is that Daniel who sleeps in the dust til the happenings of Daniel 12:1-3 could not be part of the so-called first resurrection. Daniel did not see the great tribulation. Daniel was not beheaded. Daniel was not a martyr.
I'll wait for any corrections or comments you may have.
Justme
I agree with lots of your posts, but not the sequence of events of these resurrections as I understand it now.
Yep, we on the same page.
The next thing I look at is the first resurrection of Rev 20.
Verses 4 and 6 spell out who the participants in the first resurrection are and as I see it lay out the parameters of who can be included in this first resurrection.
They must have been in contact with the tribulation in order to resist the beast.
The participants are blessed and will take part in the 1000 year reign with Christ.
I guess my main concern is that Daniel who sleeps in the dust til the happenings of Daniel 12:1-3 could not be part of the so-called first resurrection. Daniel did not see the great tribulation. Daniel was not beheaded. Daniel was not a martyr.
I'll wait for any corrections or comments you may have.
Justme
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Dad Ernie
Well-Known Member
Greetings Justme,
Here are the verses:
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Not an awful lot to go on here, and Hank Hanagraaf (The Bible Answer Man) has another take on these verses, but here is mine:
When Jesus died, I believe that as He descended into the "lower parts of the earth" (sheol) that He revealed Himself as the fulfillment of the promise regarding the victory over sin and the grave to all those who awaited him in "Abraham's bosom". I do not believe there is a "time factor" involved here as some might suggest, but Jesus stepped out of time into eternity. When He arose I believe that He took all the OT saints with Him - He led captivity captive and they are now in heaven. I believe they were a part of the "firstfruits".
Does that answer your question?
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
Okay. We shall go step by step and I will add my comments as we go along.
Good to hear that.
This is interesting, recently I have heard a spate of teaching on the OT saints and where they are now. Keep in mind, I see the cross as the dividing line between the OT and the NT, so the "first resurrection" applies to a "future resurrection".
Here are the verses:
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Not an awful lot to go on here, and Hank Hanagraaf (The Bible Answer Man) has another take on these verses, but here is mine:
When Jesus died, I believe that as He descended into the "lower parts of the earth" (sheol) that He revealed Himself as the fulfillment of the promise regarding the victory over sin and the grave to all those who awaited him in "Abraham's bosom". I do not believe there is a "time factor" involved here as some might suggest, but Jesus stepped out of time into eternity. When He arose I believe that He took all the OT saints with Him - He led captivity captive and they are now in heaven. I believe they were a part of the "firstfruits".
Does that answer your question?
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
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Hi Ernie,
You talk about Abraham's bosom and the saints being in Heaven.
I can't provide anything helpful at all in this Abraham's bosom thing. I know that certain entities are there, the story of Lazurus and the rich man has an example, yet Jesus clearly says no one has ever gone to Heaven as He walked the earth early in His ministry.
However, what I was getting at specifically is if Daniel himself will be raised AFTER the people of the 'first resurrection?' In my mind Daniel could not qualify as part of the first so would have to be part of the 'rest of the dead' as spoken of in Rev 20: 5.
Justme
Yes, I understand that you consider the 'first resurrection' to be future. I consider the 'first resurrection' to be PRIOR to the parousia. As we go thru this it will clear up as to whether there is any biblical significance to that, I hope.
You talk about Abraham's bosom and the saints being in Heaven.
I can't provide anything helpful at all in this Abraham's bosom thing. I know that certain entities are there, the story of Lazurus and the rich man has an example, yet Jesus clearly says no one has ever gone to Heaven as He walked the earth early in His ministry.
However, what I was getting at specifically is if Daniel himself will be raised AFTER the people of the 'first resurrection?' In my mind Daniel could not qualify as part of the first so would have to be part of the 'rest of the dead' as spoken of in Rev 20: 5.
Justme
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Dad Ernie
Well-Known Member
Greetings Justme,Justme said:
You will first have to address the verses I quoted, particularly "he led captives captive".
Second, those who do not partake of the FIRST resurrection are doomed to the Lake of Fire. Daniel is NOT going to be among them, nor in the SECOND resurrection (raising up). So when and where do the scriptures say what happened to Daniel et al. of the OT? Without making assumptions, I have given you the verses which have shaped my opinion. I think I mentioned that I believe Moses and Elijah are in heaven along with Enoch. So those of the OT MUST be included somewhere among all the saints, and all we have is the "firstfruits", "the First Resurrection" and "those who did not partake of the First Resurrection (which I refer to as the Second Resurrection), who will NOT reign with Christ, and whose names are NOT found in any of the books of heaven.
Let's look at the verse:
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Where does it say "the Son of man" is? I hesitate to exegete this passage because of its difficulty. But as we see Jesus leave in Acts:
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
1869 epairo {ep-ahee'-ro}
from 1909 and 142; TDNT - 1:186,28; v
AV - lift up 15, exalt (one's) self 2, take up 1, hoisted up 1; 19
1) to lift up, raise up, raise on high
2) metaph. to be lifted up with pride, to exalt one's self
AS OPPOSED TO:
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
726 harpazo {har-pad'-zo}
from a derivative of 138; TDNT - 1:472,80; v
AV - catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1; 13
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away
Now here is the verse about Elijah:
2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
05927 `alah {aw-law'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1624; v
AV - (come, etc...) up 676, offer 67, come 22, bring 18, ascend 15,
go 12, chew 9, offering 8, light 6, increase 4, burn 3, depart 3,
put 3, spring 2, raised 2, arose 2, break 2, exalted 2, misc 33; 889
1) to go up, ascend, climb
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to go up, ascend
1a2) to meet, visit, follow, depart, withdraw, retreat
1a3) to go up, come up (of animals)
1a4) to spring up, grow, shoot forth (of vegetation)
1a5) to go up, go up over, rise (of natural phenomenon)
1a6) to come up (before God)
1a7) to go up, go up over, extend (of boundary)
1a8) to excel, be superior to
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be taken up, be brought up, be taken away
1b2) to take oneself away
1b3) to be exalted
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to bring up, cause to ascend or climb, cause to go up
1c2) to bring up, bring against, take away
1c3) to bring up, draw up, train
1c4) to cause to ascend
1c5) to rouse, stir up (mentally)
1c6) to offer, bring up (of gifts)
1c7) to exalt
1c8) to cause to ascend, offer
1d) (Hophal)
1d1) to be carried away, be led up
1d2) to be taken up into, be inserted in
1d3) to be offered
1e) (Hithpael) to lift oneself
Again I hesitate to draw any conclusion, but it would appear that the taking up of Elijah was like the first resurrection/rapture.
We do not have much support for the John 3:13 verse/statement, but I do believe we must question our interpretation because of the difference in words. I just can't take one verse in the whole Bible to make it support an obscure point.
Next question.
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
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Hi Ernie,
NIV
8This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."
This could then be the few that Jesus had offered paradise to during His ministry, like the thief and Martha.
However, to further deal with Abraham's Bosom I just don't have any clear understanding of it. As you pointed out there is the verse that tells of Elijah going in a whirlwind up to Heaven. I do not know of any verses that would sort this out. The word heaven may only mean sky or something, but I have no knowledge of that.
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt
Daniel would be one of them as I see it from verse 13.
13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."
Then later there is the reference to the raising of those who sleep :
1 Thess 4
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaventhe Son of Man..............
Even with that verse I feel those particular saints and possibly others are somehow in Heaven. I speak of other angels here as well. However, the likes of Daniel are said to be raised at the time of the great tribulation.
Dan 12
.........There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered................
Because of the wording of 1 Thess 4:13-18 I can't follow that all not in the first resurrection are in the lake of fire. There is the rest of the dead and then there are those who are alive at the time of the parousia that are raised.
All of this leads me to conclude that the first resurrection is prior to the parousia and therefore occurs only in the Heavenly realm.
Could you point out where you feel those who are alive at the parousia fall into this?
Justme
Well, about all I can offer in the way of Eph. 4:8 is another translation that seems clearer.
NIV
8This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."
This could then be the few that Jesus had offered paradise to during His ministry, like the thief and Martha.
However, to further deal with Abraham's Bosom I just don't have any clear understanding of it. As you pointed out there is the verse that tells of Elijah going in a whirlwind up to Heaven. I do not know of any verses that would sort this out. The word heaven may only mean sky or something, but I have no knowledge of that.
I use Daniel 12 here.
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt
Daniel would be one of them as I see it from verse 13.
13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."
Then later there is the reference to the raising of those who sleep :
1 Thess 4
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
Yes, and even tho there is the confusing verse John 3:13 which says:
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaventhe Son of Man..............
Even with that verse I feel those particular saints and possibly others are somehow in Heaven. I speak of other angels here as well. However, the likes of Daniel are said to be raised at the time of the great tribulation.
Dan 12
.........There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered................
You also feel that all who are not in the first resurrection are doomed to the lake of fire.
Because of the wording of 1 Thess 4:13-18 I can't follow that all not in the first resurrection are in the lake of fire. There is the rest of the dead and then there are those who are alive at the time of the parousia that are raised.
All of this leads me to conclude that the first resurrection is prior to the parousia and therefore occurs only in the Heavenly realm.
Could you point out where you feel those who are alive at the parousia fall into this?
Justme
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Dad Ernie
Well-Known Member
Greetings Justme,
I realize that we are talking about the "resurrection", but let me bring in a few scriptures:
Deut 4:26-31 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. 27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, (see Rom 9:27) whither the LORD shall lead you. 28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. 29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. 30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
I see the fulfillment of this during the last 3 1/2 years immediately preceding the Lord's 2nd advent, the parousia. Daniel 9 tells us that Israel shall be "restored to righteousness" BEFORE the 490 years assigned to them is completed. Romans 11 then tells us that at the "fulness of the gentiles be come in (to the Kingdom of God)", then God will take off their blinders, change their heart and ALL Israel shall be saved.
Now notice this interesting verse:
Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Now according to my understanding, and as I have pointed out, I believe the OT saints are already with the Lord - He led captivity captive. Now God did not "cast away" those whom He already foreknew - the OT saints, but the NT saints are AWAITING their resurrection, and when we see Israel receiving the Gospel of Jesus Christ enmasse, then we know that the RESURRECTION (life from the dead) is at hand.
So there is a trib period where all the saints will not have loved their lives, even unto death. They are mostly slain by the beast, THEN we see this occuring:
1 Thess 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
At the Lord's 2nd Advent, the resurrection of the just shall occur. The rapture of the living "remnant" shall occur subsequent to this, but the exact time of it, doesn't seem to be clear, I believe it to be a relatively short time afterward.
Now look at Rev 14:1-5. This was just brought to my attention today, but it helps answer some of my own questions about that chapter. Notice who the "firstfruits" are - the 144,000. May I suggest this also supports the idea that the Lord led the OT saints captive to heaven.
I'm sorry this is sort of rambling. It's late and I'm tired.
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
I realize that we are talking about the "resurrection", but let me bring in a few scriptures:
Deut 4:26-31 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. 27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, (see Rom 9:27) whither the LORD shall lead you. 28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. 29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. 30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God
he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.I see the fulfillment of this during the last 3 1/2 years immediately preceding the Lord's 2nd advent, the parousia. Daniel 9 tells us that Israel shall be "restored to righteousness" BEFORE the 490 years assigned to them is completed. Romans 11 then tells us that at the "fulness of the gentiles be come in (to the Kingdom of God)", then God will take off their blinders, change their heart and ALL Israel shall be saved.
Now notice this interesting verse:
Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Now according to my understanding, and as I have pointed out, I believe the OT saints are already with the Lord - He led captivity captive. Now God did not "cast away" those whom He already foreknew - the OT saints, but the NT saints are AWAITING their resurrection, and when we see Israel receiving the Gospel of Jesus Christ enmasse, then we know that the RESURRECTION (life from the dead) is at hand.
So there is a trib period where all the saints will not have loved their lives, even unto death. They are mostly slain by the beast, THEN we see this occuring:
1 Thess 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
At the Lord's 2nd Advent, the resurrection of the just shall occur. The rapture of the living "remnant" shall occur subsequent to this, but the exact time of it, doesn't seem to be clear, I believe it to be a relatively short time afterward.
Now look at Rev 14:1-5. This was just brought to my attention today, but it helps answer some of my own questions about that chapter. Notice who the "firstfruits" are - the 144,000. May I suggest this also supports the idea that the Lord led the OT saints captive to heaven.
I'm sorry this is sort of rambling. It's late and I'm tired.
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
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Hi Ernie,
I'm going to take aminute on the Rev 14 thing and I'll get back.
Also
I'll catch you later,
Justme
No problem at all.
I'm going to take aminute on the Rev 14 thing and I'll get back.
Also
I see some merit in this, but we explain it different. I'm also going to go back thru a bit and get a better grasp of your meaning from earlier posts.
I'll catch you later,
Justme
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Hi Ernie,
This resurrection thing is a hard thing to follow.
As you mentioned there are the likes of Elijah and Enoch. Then there is the thief on the cross, then there are the 144000 as you said and the saints that Jesus brings with HIm and on and on.
There has to be some overlapping going on here, but where is it?
Those who are considered in the bosom of Abraham.....at the moment they are the unknowns to me. I'm curious enough to dig out an answer, but right now it remains an unknown.
However, Elijah and Moses appeared to the men at the transfiguration so they are already with God by whatever means, I see no reason for Jesus to do anything further as far as they are concerned.
The 144000.
What we know of them is that John saw them in Heaven. They had been sealed by an angel. They were from 12 Jewish nations or tribes.
Here is where I think we may have the same basic idea. Chapter 14 starts out with the 144000 and the lamb on Mount Zion, but then they are before the throne of God up in Heaven. They are definately called the first fruits in that chapter. Yet these 144000 had been sealed,.... protected, I would think, so they should not have been harmed during the great tribulation. Therefore, it is hard to picture them as the 'beheaded' of that 'first resurrection.'
However, we do have a group of 'judges' ,Rev 20:4, could they be the 144000?
Somehow within this I see those captives you talk about that Jesus brought with Him to Heaven. Could they have been the 144000 that went to Heaven and became Judge's?
You mention the rapture of the living remnant shortly after the parousia. Yes, I don't use the word rapture , but caught up instead...no big deal.
Let's dig thru this bit.
Justme
This resurrection thing is a hard thing to follow.
As you mentioned there are the likes of Elijah and Enoch. Then there is the thief on the cross, then there are the 144000 as you said and the saints that Jesus brings with HIm and on and on.
There has to be some overlapping going on here, but where is it?
Those who are considered in the bosom of Abraham.....at the moment they are the unknowns to me. I'm curious enough to dig out an answer, but right now it remains an unknown.
However, Elijah and Moses appeared to the men at the transfiguration so they are already with God by whatever means, I see no reason for Jesus to do anything further as far as they are concerned.
The 144000.
What we know of them is that John saw them in Heaven. They had been sealed by an angel. They were from 12 Jewish nations or tribes.
Here is where I think we may have the same basic idea. Chapter 14 starts out with the 144000 and the lamb on Mount Zion, but then they are before the throne of God up in Heaven. They are definately called the first fruits in that chapter. Yet these 144000 had been sealed,.... protected, I would think, so they should not have been harmed during the great tribulation. Therefore, it is hard to picture them as the 'beheaded' of that 'first resurrection.'
However, we do have a group of 'judges' ,Rev 20:4, could they be the 144000?
Somehow within this I see those captives you talk about that Jesus brought with Him to Heaven. Could they have been the 144000 that went to Heaven and became Judge's?
I see the resurrection of the just and the unjust at the same time..at the parousia. That resurrection I see as the one talked about in Daniel 12. That is the ones who 'sleep' which would include Daniel himself. However, that means they would be the 'rest of the dead' of Rev 20:5 and they would be AFTER the so-called 'first' resurrection or the 1000 year reign with Christ.
You mention the rapture of the living remnant shortly after the parousia. Yes, I don't use the word rapture , but caught up instead...no big deal.
Let's dig thru this bit.
Justme
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Dad Ernie said:
Exact - perfect.
Just curious - it appears that this thread was elsewhere and was "moved" into this "Unorthodox" section. Why is that? It is "Unorthodox" to say that the rapture is not in the Word of God?
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Hi,
It was in the Unortho and has been moved here actually. No, rapture would not be considered unothodox by this website.
Justme
It was in the Unortho and has been moved here actually. No, rapture would not be considered unothodox by this website.
Justme
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Dad Ernie
Well-Known Member
Greetings JustMe,
Let's see if this might help:
Rev 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 7:3-4 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Acts 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
I believe ALL the saints, living and dead are revealed here. These are the ones who will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. Can we agree on that? Now whether they be part of the "firstfruits" or the "first resurrection" is rather a moot point and I don't believe worth arguing over.
So the question is, who will take part in the 2nd resurrection:
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The SEA is often seen and can rightfully be interpreted as "the sea of humanity" - generally speaking - the WORLD. Death and Hell would seem pretty obvious to me that they are also of the WORLD. This would make up the "rest of the dead". REMEMBER, those who did not partake of the "firstfruits" or the "first resurrection" remain dead or in hell.
Now nowhere do these verses say that any of the RIGHTEOUS are judged. ALSO no where in the whole Bible does it show that ANYONE is saved during the Mill. reign of Christ. All it says is:
"whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".
The SECOND DEATH is what is in view here. It is appointed unto man, once to die, then the judgment. This death is "the ETERNAL DEATH". Soul and body are cast into the Lake of Fire. Those who reign with Christ shall not have to suffer it.
Can we move on now?
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
Let's see if this might help:
Rev 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 7:3-4 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Acts 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
I believe ALL the saints, living and dead are revealed here. These are the ones who will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. Can we agree on that? Now whether they be part of the "firstfruits" or the "first resurrection" is rather a moot point and I don't believe worth arguing over.
So the question is, who will take part in the 2nd resurrection:
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The SEA is often seen and can rightfully be interpreted as "the sea of humanity" - generally speaking - the WORLD. Death and Hell would seem pretty obvious to me that they are also of the WORLD. This would make up the "rest of the dead". REMEMBER, those who did not partake of the "firstfruits" or the "first resurrection" remain dead or in hell.
Now nowhere do these verses say that any of the RIGHTEOUS are judged. ALSO no where in the whole Bible does it show that ANYONE is saved during the Mill. reign of Christ. All it says is:
"whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".
The SECOND DEATH is what is in view here. It is appointed unto man, once to die, then the judgment. This death is "the ETERNAL DEATH". Soul and body are cast into the Lake of Fire. Those who reign with Christ shall not have to suffer it.
Can we move on now?
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
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Hi Ernie,
No, we have reached the impasse.
However, I enjoyed talking with you and it was fruitful. While looking thru some of your references I noticed 1 Peter 1 which for the first time I saw was talking about that elusive elect.
I owe you, thanks.
Justme
No, we have reached the impasse.
You see I don't see that. Simply put Daniel was one who 'slept'. Those who 'sleep' are not of the first resurrection, but after it.
However, I enjoyed talking with you and it was fruitful. While looking thru some of your references I noticed 1 Peter 1 which for the first time I saw was talking about that elusive elect.
I owe you, thanks.
Justme
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0
You will have to come up with something more than you have if you want anyone to believe you, try some Bible verses to support what you say.
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Hi Symes and Ernie,
To Symes,
..but I s'pose if you really want..........
Ernie,
You are referring to Daniel here.
I don't see Daniel as one of the first fruits as you are meaning it for the following reasons:
Daniel tells us of a resurrection of the just and the not so just that will occur at the time of the Great tribulation. Those who will be resurrected at that time are spoken of as those who 'sleep.' It explains to us in verse 13 that Daniel himself will be one who will 'sleep.'
Daniel doesn't fit the criteria of the 'first' resurrection of Rev 20:4 and 6. Daniel never went thru the great tribulation, he was to be raised to eternal life at the time of the great tribulation. Daniel was never beheaded as talked about in Rev 20:4, in fact, Daniel was just to live his life to the end (his death) and then 'sleep' until he would be raised to his inheritance.
1 Thess 4 tells us:
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
Daniel fell asleep as did many others...good and bad.
14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
When will Jesus bring those who have fallen asleep in Him? At the time He comes. That is verified again here:
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep
Daniel was one of those who had 'fallen asleep.' Daniel was not beheaded, Daniel did not go near the beast of Revelation, Daniel 'slept' thru the tribulation because :
14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. The parousia is AFTER the great tribulation.
Daniel was physically dead, it was the physically dead who 'slept' and who came to life as Jesus came at His parousia, it was Daniel who would be included as:
Rev 20
5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
Daniel would be judged at the Great white throne because everyone who slept would be judged at the great white throne.
Rev 20
The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
It doesn't say the righteous dead or the wicked dead, but the dead. Daniel was one of the dead.
Rev 20
13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
I don't buy for a second that this is talking about the 'sea of humanity' the scripture says the sea will give up the dead...there is dead in the sea.. and there is not only righteous dead in the sea or wicked dead in the sea, but people who will be judged at the great white throne judgement just like everyone else will be judged as it says here:
I don't buy for a second that the judgment of the just and the judgment of the wicked, discusse in Daniel 12, Rev 20 or any other biblical story, are at different times. The reason I don't believe that is:
When are the just raised? At the last day......
John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
When is it for the wicked?
Matthew 12:48
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
2 Cor 5
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Matthew 12
For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
1 Cor 15
Here is where I get the best understanding of 'first fruits.'
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
The dead were raised, each in their own order as it says here:
1 cor 15:23
But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
But what I see is that these are at the time of the parousia, these are the dead who 'slept' , these are the Rest of the Dead as spoken of in Rev 20:5.
These are the ones who were raised to life AFTER those of the 'first' resurrection and BEFORE those who remain alive at the parousia.
I see it this way because it is not over at the parousia, in fact it is never over. WE read of the coming on the clouds and the great harvest as John sees all this in his vision and as John describes it in the final verses of Revelation 14. The last instruction John hears as he turns to watch the coming on the clouds is:
Rev 14
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.
Those who die AFTER the parousia are those who are blessed.
So that is why I see it as I do and oh, no, I wasn't just stating an opinion totally devoid of scripture.
Remember you asked me this:
That's how I see it and why I see as I see it...
Justme
To Symes,
I'm not concerned if anybody has beliefs as I do or not. I find the the bible to be the ultimate mystery and someday I hope to know what it actually means.
..but I s'pose if you really want..........
Ernie,
You are referring to Daniel here.
I don't see Daniel as one of the first fruits as you are meaning it for the following reasons:
Daniel tells us of a resurrection of the just and the not so just that will occur at the time of the Great tribulation. Those who will be resurrected at that time are spoken of as those who 'sleep.' It explains to us in verse 13 that Daniel himself will be one who will 'sleep.'
Daniel doesn't fit the criteria of the 'first' resurrection of Rev 20:4 and 6. Daniel never went thru the great tribulation, he was to be raised to eternal life at the time of the great tribulation. Daniel was never beheaded as talked about in Rev 20:4, in fact, Daniel was just to live his life to the end (his death) and then 'sleep' until he would be raised to his inheritance.
1 Thess 4 tells us:
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
Daniel fell asleep as did many others...good and bad.
14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
When will Jesus bring those who have fallen asleep in Him? At the time He comes. That is verified again here:
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep
Daniel was one of those who had 'fallen asleep.' Daniel was not beheaded, Daniel did not go near the beast of Revelation, Daniel 'slept' thru the tribulation because :
14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. The parousia is AFTER the great tribulation.
Daniel was physically dead, it was the physically dead who 'slept' and who came to life as Jesus came at His parousia, it was Daniel who would be included as:
Rev 20
5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
Daniel would be judged at the Great white throne because everyone who slept would be judged at the great white throne.
Rev 20
The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
It doesn't say the righteous dead or the wicked dead, but the dead. Daniel was one of the dead.
Rev 20
13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
I don't buy for a second that this is talking about the 'sea of humanity' the scripture says the sea will give up the dead...there is dead in the sea.. and there is not only righteous dead in the sea or wicked dead in the sea, but people who will be judged at the great white throne judgement just like everyone else will be judged as it says here:
I don't buy for a second that the judgment of the just and the judgment of the wicked, discusse in Daniel 12, Rev 20 or any other biblical story, are at different times. The reason I don't believe that is:
When are the just raised? At the last day......
John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
When is it for the wicked?
Matthew 12:48
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
2 Cor 5
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Matthew 12
For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
1 Cor 15
Here is where I get the best understanding of 'first fruits.'
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
The dead were raised, each in their own order as it says here:
1 cor 15:23
But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
But what I see is that these are at the time of the parousia, these are the dead who 'slept' , these are the Rest of the Dead as spoken of in Rev 20:5.
These are the ones who were raised to life AFTER those of the 'first' resurrection and BEFORE those who remain alive at the parousia.
I see it this way because it is not over at the parousia, in fact it is never over. WE read of the coming on the clouds and the great harvest as John sees all this in his vision and as John describes it in the final verses of Revelation 14. The last instruction John hears as he turns to watch the coming on the clouds is:
Rev 14
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.
Those who die AFTER the parousia are those who are blessed.
So that is why I see it as I do and oh, no, I wasn't just stating an opinion totally devoid of scripture.
Remember you asked me this:
That's how I see it and why I see as I see it...
Justme
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0
Dad Ernie
Well-Known Member
Greetings Justme,
It does not say that Daniel would "sleep" implying his body would remain lying in the grave.
Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
05117 nuwach {noo'-akh}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1323; v
AV - rest 55, ceased 1, confederate 1, let down 1, set down 1, lay 1,
quiet 2, remain 1, set 1; 64
1) to rest
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to rest, settle down and remain
1a2) to repose, have rest, be quiet
1b) (Hiph)
1b1) to cause to rest, give rest to, make quiet
1b2) to cause to rest, cause to alight, set down
1b3) to lay or set down, deposit, let lie, place
1b4) to let remain, leave
1b5) to leave, depart from
1b6) to abandon
1b7) to permit
1c) (Hoph)
1c1) to obtain rest, be granted rest
1c2) to be left, be placed
1c3) open space (subst)
The word "lot" means he shall receive his "portion", which fits in perfectly with:
Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Do you know of a place in the OT that speaks of a 1,000 year reign of Christ? Daniel saw the end by the judgments that shall be. He did NOT see that they were separated by 1,000 years. He didn't even have a concept of the "firstfruits".
But until the Lord "shows you", OR ME, I don't think we will be able to convince the other. I believe that scripture supports my view and that yours is unsupportable. But I am sure you feel the same about me.
So I look forward to other discussions we might have on this board. You are pleasant and give reasonable support for your thoughts.
God bless my friend & brother,
Dad Ernie
It does not say that Daniel would "sleep" implying his body would remain lying in the grave.
Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
05117 nuwach {noo'-akh}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1323; v
AV - rest 55, ceased 1, confederate 1, let down 1, set down 1, lay 1,
quiet 2, remain 1, set 1; 64
1) to rest
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to rest, settle down and remain
1a2) to repose, have rest, be quiet
1b) (Hiph)
1b1) to cause to rest, give rest to, make quiet
1b2) to cause to rest, cause to alight, set down
1b3) to lay or set down, deposit, let lie, place
1b4) to let remain, leave
1b5) to leave, depart from
1b6) to abandon
1b7) to permit
1c) (Hoph)
1c1) to obtain rest, be granted rest
1c2) to be left, be placed
1c3) open space (subst)
The word "lot" means he shall receive his "portion", which fits in perfectly with:
Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Do you know of a place in the OT that speaks of a 1,000 year reign of Christ? Daniel saw the end by the judgments that shall be. He did NOT see that they were separated by 1,000 years. He didn't even have a concept of the "firstfruits".
But until the Lord "shows you", OR ME, I don't think we will be able to convince the other. I believe that scripture supports my view and that yours is unsupportable. But I am sure you feel the same about me.
So I look forward to other discussions we might have on this board. You are pleasant and give reasonable support for your thoughts.
God bless my friend & brother,
Dad Ernie
Upvote
0
Hi Ernie,
'To sleep' means to be dead, not everytime the word is used, but when the context demands it.
Acts 13:36
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
1 Cor 15
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
There are two examples when 'to sleep' means to be dead.
The word rest can mean to be dead as well as the verse in question shows.
13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."
Daniel, live your life til you die and then you have to lay in the dust until you rise to receieve your inheritance (of eternal life) at the end of the days.
You are correct that this verse does not tell us that his body will remain lying in the dirt. However, this doesn't tell us it won't either. The rest of the verses I laid out for you DO show that the body DOES remain in the dirt, however and they show that the spirit returns to Heaven. What I was looking for is any verses that tell us that this spiritual heavenly body ever returns physically to earth. There are doctrines that show that and I am wondering about supporting scripture.
But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered.
AND those are in the group who are raised at the great tribulation and those are dead which fits in perfectly with Rev 20:5 which puts the 'first resurrection PRIOR to the parousia which means they reign with Jesus in Heaven before the parousia.
I will go thru the sequence of the resurrections just to recap.
The saints of Rev 20:4 and 6 are raised to life. They are the ones who reign for the 1000 years with Christ. Verse 5 cleary shows the rest of the dead not being raised until AFTER the 1000 years. Daniel 12:1-3 talks of some more 'rest of the dead' being raised....it really doesn't matter who it is, all that matters is that it is that it is people who sleep that will be raised at the time of the great tribulation. Those people who 'sleep' will not precede those who are alive at the parousia. So we have those alive at the parousia preceded by those who sleep preceded by those of the first resurrection and of course the firstfruit from the dead, Jesus Christ.
I chose not to include any as actual resurrections from the dead prior to 62 AD. Because:
John 313No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
2 Tim 217Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
Justme
Well, let's see. You also put forth that the word 'rest' has some significance here.
'To sleep' means to be dead, not everytime the word is used, but when the context demands it.
Acts 13:36
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
1 Cor 15
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
There are two examples when 'to sleep' means to be dead.
The word rest can mean to be dead as well as the verse in question shows.
13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."
Daniel, live your life til you die and then you have to lay in the dust until you rise to receieve your inheritance (of eternal life) at the end of the days.
You are correct that this verse does not tell us that his body will remain lying in the dirt. However, this doesn't tell us it won't either. The rest of the verses I laid out for you DO show that the body DOES remain in the dirt, however and they show that the spirit returns to Heaven. What I was looking for is any verses that tell us that this spiritual heavenly body ever returns physically to earth. There are doctrines that show that and I am wondering about supporting scripture.
The word lot also fits in perfectly with:
But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered.
AND those are in the group who are raised at the great tribulation and those are dead which fits in perfectly with Rev 20:5 which puts the 'first resurrection PRIOR to the parousia which means they reign with Jesus in Heaven before the parousia.
I will go thru the sequence of the resurrections just to recap.
The saints of Rev 20:4 and 6 are raised to life. They are the ones who reign for the 1000 years with Christ. Verse 5 cleary shows the rest of the dead not being raised until AFTER the 1000 years. Daniel 12:1-3 talks of some more 'rest of the dead' being raised....it really doesn't matter who it is, all that matters is that it is that it is people who sleep that will be raised at the time of the great tribulation. Those people who 'sleep' will not precede those who are alive at the parousia. So we have those alive at the parousia preceded by those who sleep preceded by those of the first resurrection and of course the firstfruit from the dead, Jesus Christ.
I chose not to include any as actual resurrections from the dead prior to 62 AD. Because:
John 313No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
2 Tim 217Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
Justme
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