Rapture

[Nickolai]

How do people believe in Pre-tribulation Rapture? There is no basis for it in either Scripture or Tradition. Maybe someone can make me understand why so many peopel believe it.

 

[Wisdom's Child]

wishful thinking?

I have also heard it said that Jesus doesn't desire a "Battered Bride", but I can't find reference for that either.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

There is no biblical support for a secret rapture.

When Christ comes EVERY eye shall see him.

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings All,

There IS a rapture, but it is AFTER the First Resurrection, consists of only a very small remnant (those who are alive and remain), and comes AFTER the Tribulation period, BUT prior to God's outpouring WRATH on the unbelievers.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[Justme]

Hi Forum,

We might as well start out with a variety.

There is no rapture, period. There is a catching up of believers to be with Jesus in Heaven, but not the massive world confusing situation promoted by some on TV or on most web forums.

Remember the ones who are blessed are the ones who die AFTER the coming of the son of man on the clouds.

Justme

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I assented to the rapture theory the first few years after I was saved, mainly because I was saved reading TLGPE, and read after teachers like Larkin, Dake, and Tim Lehaye(sp).
I entered into the questioning phase of my faith in the late 70s and read some books on the subject. "Christians Will Go Through the Tribulation" as well as a few others convinced me from the word that this doctrine was not supported by scriptures. There are some passages that would seem to imply there will be a rapture... but only if you read them assuming there will be one.


The first resurrection of believers occurs at the seventh (last) trump just before the reign of Christ begins:

Revelation 20:5-6 Webster
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Jesus said the elect would be gathered "after the tribulation of those days":

Matthew 24:29-31 Webster
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Justme]

Hi ...I can't remember how to spell it,

That verse 5 in Rev 20 is a tricky one.
In the NIV it is shown in brackets which helps.

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
**********************

When you cipher all thru that it says that the rest of the dead do no rise until AFTER the 1000 year reign with Christ. That means that the 1000 years are over, the devil is out and so on and then there are more dead raised. However, those dead are prior to the parousia or coming of the son of man. Those PRIOR to the parousia DO NOT PRECEDE those alive AT the parousia. That caching up which is talked about in 1 Thess 4 is at the time of the parousia or after the parousia.

Then there are the blessed who die from the time of the parousia onward.

Justme

 

[1John5:3]

If You Repeat a Lie Often Enough....

 

[Key Of David]

People, for one thing, are literally scared to "death" because of what biblically illiterate so-called teachers tell them about how the world is going to be in the tribulation hour. The bible says they shall deliver you up to "Death". That is one of Satan's names. Existance never knew it before he messed everything up, and he is the only one sentenced to it by name at this time. If you follow him you follow death and you will die....plain and simple. To be delivered up before "Death" during the tribulation period is a true blessing indeed, because it means you are one of the remnant that will stand against him as antichrist and the whole world will watch the truth come out of your mouth in the uncloven tongue of the Holy Spirit. EXCITING!

I believe the "rapture" is spoken of in Ezekial 13:20. Its clear He's talking about that Margaret McDonald woman who had the admittedly evil-feeling rapture dream and this is what caused a lot of Christians to be decieved. I believe it was from Satan himself preparing to play the role of Christ and "rapture" people out of here. I won't be one of them.

 

[Radio-Free Gnosis]

Yeah, I'd been trying to wrap my head around the Rapture since I was 7, and have concluded that there is no basis for it. Then again, there are a lot of other religious traditions that have no basis in scripture.

 

[Justme]

Hi Ernie,

There IS a rapture, but it is AFTER the First Resurrection, consists of only a very small remnant (those who are alive and remain), and comes AFTER the Tribulation period, BUT prior to God's outpouring WRATH on the unbelievers.

I'm curious here.

If the great tribulation is not the same as the time of God's wrath, what would be the difference?

Also this rapture that involves only those who are alive and remain...at the parousia...

How do explain what is said about those who die after the coming of the son of man on the clouds? (parousia)

Justme

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Justme,

I'm curious here.

If the great tribulation is not the same as the time of God's wrath, what would be the difference?

God's wrath takes place here:

Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Tribulation basically is for the "saints of God" - the Beast wages war against them.

Wrath is for the "unbelievers". They are destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

Also this rapture that involves only those who are alive and remain...at the parousia...

So we have included here all the saints that have ever died PLUS those few who are raptured AFTER the FIRST resurrection. All these shall reign with Christ for 1,000 years. Our Lord will make sure not one sheep of His flock is "left behind".

How do explain what is said about those who die after the coming of the son of man on the clouds? (parousia)

Once the FIRST RESURRECTION/rapture occurs, those who die will be raised up (resurrected) to face judgment at the Great White Throne.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[Justme]

Hi Ernie,

Once the FIRST RESURRECTION/rapture occurs, those who die will be raised up (resurrected) to face judgment at the Great White Throne.

Now the first resurrection is the one that is also the 1000 year reign with Christ. So after that is the great white throne judgment, but is that prior to those who are alive AT the parousia or is it those who die AFTER the parousia, as you see it?

I feel the great white is the same as the raising that is talked about in Daniel 12:1-3.

Justme

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Justme,

Now the first resurrection is the one that is also the 1000 year reign with Christ. So after that is the great white throne judgment, but is that prior to those who are alive AT the parousia or is it those who die AFTER the parousia, as you see it?

The FIRST RESURRECTION/rapture is at the Lord's 2nd Adent, immediately followed by God's Wrath, then the Mill. reign begins. There is no indicated that anyone is saved during this 1,000 years. The SECOND RESURRECTION (those who did not partake of the first) will consist of all the rest of the dead, raised up, and judged at the Great White Throne.

I feel the great white is the same as the raising that is talked about in Daniel 12:1-3.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Matt 24:21-22 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Just for clarification, the "gathering of His elect" is at the 2nd Advent of our Lord. It is immediately preceded by the Great Tribulation, which results in the FIRST RESURRECTION/rapture.

The Great White Throne Judgment does NOT occur till after the Mill. reign of Christ.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[Justme]

Hi Ernie,

The bible is an amazing book. Even more amazing is the number of different ways the words of that bible are understood. If you have time I would like to go thru this particular topic verse by verse. As you know I don't agree with your understanding, but I would like to follow thru with you to see how you developed that understanding.

Let's start with Daniel 12.

The End Times

1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

I see this 'time of distress' as being the 'great tribulation' of Matthew 24. Is this your understanding as well?

Justme

 

[G4m]

How do people believe in Pre-tribulation Rapture? There is no basis for it in either Scripture or Tradition. Maybe someone can make me understand why so many peopel believe it.

Mark 7
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[Symes]

Rapture



How do people believe in Pre-tribulation Rapture? There is no basis for it in either Scripture or Tradition. Maybe someone can make me understand why so many peopel believe it.

True, there is no rapture before the tribulation.

 

[Axver]

What I find most amusing is when pre-Tribulation Rapturists take 1 Thessalonians 4 and try to say it refers to the Rapture. I want to know how you can possibly read that and not come to the conclusion it refers to the Second Coming.

 

[deu58]

I assented to the rapture theory the first few years after I was saved, mainly because I was saved reading TLGPE, and read after teachers like Larkin, Dake, and Tim Lehaye(sp).
I entered into the questioning phase of my faith in the late 70s and read some books on the subject. "Christians Will Go Through the Tribulation" as well as a few others convinced me from the word that this doctrine was not supported by scriptures. There are some passages that would seem to imply there will be a rapture... but only if you read them assuming there will be one.

Well what do you know symes another point we actually agree on. My experience is about the same as didaskalos. But after doing my own studies I just do not see it.

What I do see in scripture is God never harms his own children Flood, 10 plagues, Korahs rebellion etc. so I believe we will not be subject to the wrath of God that will be poured out on those who are saved.

My mind days hope for the best but my heart tells me be prepared for the worst. I actually thought I was in a minority on this because many christians I meet are suprised that I do not really hold a post or mid Trib rapture belief. But noticing this thread and a couple of other threads here it appears I am not the lone stranger on this issue after all. I to thought hal lindsay really
had it together at one time.

yours in Christ
deu58

 

[Symes]

deu

Well what do you know symes another point we actually agree on. My experience is about the same as didaskalos. But after doing my own studies I just do not see it.

What I do see in scripture is God never harms his own children Flood, 10 plagues, Korahs rebellion etc. so I believe we will not be subject to the wrath of God that will be poured out on those who are saved.

My mind days hope for the best but my heart tells me be prepared for the worst. I actually thought I was in a minority on this because many christians I meet are suprised that I do not really hold a post or mid Trib rapture belief. But noticing this thread and a couple of other threads here it appears I am not the lone stranger on this issue after all. I to thought hal lindsay really
had it together at one time.

Everything that you say from Scripture I will agree on. The three Hewbrews as they went into the fire, God was with them. I am sure they suffered, at least a mental anguish before being saved. They were not saved from the tribulation but were saved as they went through it.