Second coming not rapture, the rapture was never heard of until a few hundred years ago in the wretched burned over district !
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Rapture?
- Thread starter Protestantismvsthebible
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All refers to the second coming not a rapture of the church where non believers are left here on earth, the dead first then everyone else not just Christians, therefore the second coming, it's the last trump!Given that you responded 2 seconds after I posted, I take it you didn't actually read the article. You might want to read it more thoroughly if you're serious.
The letters of 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, whose major theme is living the Christian life with a view towards the return of Christ, clarify the timing of the Rapture. They teach
A. The Lord returns just before the rapture
These are the order of events according to 1Thessalonians 4:16,17
1. the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command,
with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,
2. the dead in Christ will rise first.
3. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together
with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. (The Rapture)
That is,
1. The Lord comes down from heaven into the clouds
2. Dead believers rise from their graves and go into the clouds to meet Christ
3. A short time afterwards the believers who had not died join them in the clouds, not dying, but being transformed in the twinkling of an eye at the Last Trumpet (1Cor 15:51,52)
"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ" Rev 11:15 And then he sends Wrath down from the clouds for 3 years, followed by His Millenial Reign on earth.
B. The reason Paul gives as to how believers know they haven't missed it, or been "left behind" as some put it today, is because certain events must occur before the Rapture:
2Thess 2:1-4
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him we ask you, brothers not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (the coming of the Lord and the Rapture) will not come until
1. the rebellion occurs and
2. the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.Notice that "the day of the Lord" spoken of throughout 1st and 2nd Thessalonians is revealed here to incorporate both the coming of the Lord and the Rapture. ("Our being gathered to him") Notice the correlation of this "gathering" with Matthew 24 which I also mention below:Matt 24:29-31
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."But before "that day" occurs, Paul reveals that certain events must first occur. "The popular "Left Behind" Series is unBiblical in its portrayal of the order of these events. What if a false pre-trib prophet had proposed to the Thessalonians that the Lord had already come and the rapture occurred, but that they missed it - that they are "left behind"! This is the kind of false prophecy Paul was responding to. Notice also 2Timothy 2:16-18 "Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some." And even today there are some called "Preterists" who claim the resurrection has already taken place. Paul refers to such ideas merely as godless chatter.
The "rebellion" or "falling away" he refers to is also mentioned in Matthew 24:10,11 "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people."
By the way the "man of lawlessness" it refers to is alluded to in the book of Daniel saying,
"He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. (3.5 years)" Dan 7:25
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ (3.5 years) he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." Dan 9:27
The anti-Christ will reign for 7 years, the last 3.5 years of which he will persecute the saints starting with his rebellious act of setting himself in God's temple proclaiming himself to be God. After the 3.5 years of persecution, the Rapture occurs. (See also the Revelation Timing Charts)
C. Coming as a Thief in the night refers not to "in secrecy", but rather to "surprise".
Some have proposed that the Lord's coming it speaks of in 1Thess 4 is not the same as the Lord's coming spoken of as elsewhere, but rather it is a secret coming. That is the Jesus tiptoes into the world and takes his believers away secretly. The "secret coming" theory is based upon the fact that at times his coming is likened to a thief coming in the night. But notice the context when the Bible likens the Lord's coming as a thief in the night.
1Thess 5:2-4 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
So also Peter writes, "the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare."2Peter 3:10
It is not in secrecy, but in surprise, though the believers are not surprised but ready. But also his coming as a thief incorporates destruction and suffering upon the world. So also even when Jesus spoken of his coming as a thief he was not referring to it being in secret, but rather it being a surprise:
"But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." Luke 12:39,40
D. 1Thess 4:16 speaks of the trumpet call of God, as does 1Corinthians 15:51,52 both with reference to the Rapture event. But Corinthians specifies it as the LAST TRUMPET.
The 7th trumpet, which is the last one, is spoken of in Revelation 11, where it says,
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." 1Cor 15:51,52
While the Rapture is a Pre-Wrath event in that it occurs before the 3 years of the bowls of wrath, it is not a Pre-Trib event, given what Revelation and Matthew 24 describe of events prior to the last trumpet sounding.
"The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever." Rev 11:15 And goes on to say in vs 18 "The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints."
E. Some have attempted to defend the Pre-Trib Rapture theory with 2Thess 2:7, but that verse absolutely does not support such a theory.
"For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work;
but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way."I agree with the idea that it is most likely speaking of the Holy Spirit holding back the lawlessness in the world. We notice in Romans 1 for example it speaks of God "giving them over to their sinful desires" and "to a depraved mind" and so forth, implying that God was holding them back from such corruption. So also I can imagine He's doing the same concerning the restraint of lawlessness on a larger scale - world-wide.
The pretribers however will reason that at this point God takes away such restraint by taking the Holy Spirit completely out of the world altogether. And as the Spirit so the Church, meaning that the Rapture must occur at that time. But first of all does God need to take the Spirit completely out of the world to release His restraint? Certainly not. For even Romans 1 gives examples of God giving people over to their passions, and yet the Church is still here! It is not the Church which restrains the world. It's the Spirit. The time will come when the Spirit limits its influence to the Church, giving up on the rest of the world. That's what it's speaking of. But the Church is still on the earth at that time.
To prove this further notice the verse which follows, which says, "And then the lawless one will be revealed." 2Thess 2:8 The Lawless One is revealed after such restraint is lifted, not to mention the rebellion. But the verses prior to that (vs 1-4) indicate that the Rapture occurs some time after the lawless one is revealed, as I pointed out above, which must be some time after the restraint is lifted, indicating that the Church is still on earth.Thus Pre-Tribers are just reading their Rapture theory into 2Thess 2:7, rather than reading the verse in context. For the context teaches that the rebellion and the revealing of the lawless one occurs before the Rapture. (Don't let anyone deceive you in any way)
F. Matthew 24 also speaks of the "Coming of the Lord" and the Rapture, placing them after the tribulation period.
Matthew 243) Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming ("parousia" in the Greek), and of the end of the age? ... (9-10) Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other. ... (15) Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (Dan 9:27) (whoever reads, let him understand) ... (21) For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. ...(29-31) Immediately after the tribulationof those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven (Rev 6:13) , and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with agreat sound of a trumpet, (1Thess 4:16) and they will gather together His elect (2Thess 2:1) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.(The Rapture).Furthermore, the Greek word "parousia" used here in speaking of the Lord's coming is also the same word "coming" used throughout Thessalonians in speaking of the Rapture. And notice the correlation with the trumpet of God spoken of in Thessalonians, which also precedes the Rapture.1Thess 4:15-17 "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."And furthermore this passage in Matthew is consistent with the timing of the rapture Paul speaks of in 2Thess 2:3, 4 "Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God."This event is the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, of which Matthew also speaks. and the "rebellion" or "falling away" is spoken of in Matthew 24:10 Thus in both sections such events are consistently placed before the Rapture. The Rapture is also described more explicitly in that chapter saying things like, "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left." Matt 24:40 This is the gathering together his elect from the four winds.
(While some pre-tribers recognize Matt 24:40 as referring to the Rapture, other Pre-tribers however interpret this to mean that the ones taken are the one's subject to God's wrath. They based this on Matt 24:28 which says, "Wherever there is a carcass, there the eagles will gather." But eagles and vultures gather around bodies which are on the earth, not on those which are taken away. This verse is actually a reference to marriage supper of the lamb of Revelation 19:17,18 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." This occurs after the Rapture.
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ViaCrucis
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Scripture never speaks of "the rapture" as popular imagination would have it. Instead Scripture teaches Christ's future Parousia and the resurrection of the dead at the consummation of history.
The doctrine of Christians being taken out of the world and directly into heaven is a non-biblical idea, no where is it taught in Holy Scripture. When the Lord comes, He does not come in secret, He comes in glory "and every eye shall see Him".
-CryptoLutheran
The doctrine of Christians being taken out of the world and directly into heaven is a non-biblical idea, no where is it taught in Holy Scripture. When the Lord comes, He does not come in secret, He comes in glory "and every eye shall see Him".
-CryptoLutheran
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This is that verse in context (and it seems to be describing something quite different from the whole rapture idea). I've read that -part of- this passage is prophesying of the Antonine plague in 165-180 CE.
https://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Rev 16
Quoting Duncan McKenzie:
Another example of a physical referent contained in a symbol in Revelation is found in Revelation 16:21, “And great hail from heaven fell upon men, every hailstone about the weight of a talent. And men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.” This plague brings to mind the seventh plague of Egypt (Exodus 9:18-26) where God rained great hailstones on the Egyptians. The hailstones of Exodus were said to be very heavy but the hailstones in Revelation are said to weigh a talent each (around a hundred pounds!). Such heavy hail is a natural impossibility (As of 1999 the world record for hail was around two pounds).13 The reference to one hundred pound “hailstones” in Revelation is not talking about literal hail; it is symbolic of the Roman bombardment of Jerusalem during its siege. Josephus tells us that these stones were shiny white (like hail) and weighed a talent each.14
The reason that Revelation symbolizes the bombardment of Jerusalem with 100-pound stones in the form of one of the plagues of Egypt is because this was a fulfillment of one of the curses that God had said he would bring on His old covenant people when they broke the covenant. God had said He would bring the diseases and plagues of Egypt on His people when they broke the covenant (Deut. 28:58-61); this is why Revelation uses the motif of the plagues of Egypt so frequently (cf. Rev. 16; see my article Revelation, Book of the Covenant Curses). Thus the 100 pound white stones that the Romans were raining on Jerusalem are portrayed symbolically as 100 pound hailstones. Again, the “hail” in Revelation 16:21 is not literal hail, it is symbolic of the one of the covenant curses that God said He would bring on His old covenant people when they broke the covenant. While the hailstones of Revelation 16:21 are symbolic, contained in this symbol is a reference to the weight of the great white stones that the Romans were raining on Jerusalem. Again, this aids in identifying what the symbol of the plague of hail is referring to.
The reason that Revelation symbolizes the bombardment of Jerusalem with 100-pound stones in the form of one of the plagues of Egypt is because this was a fulfillment of one of the curses that God had said he would bring on His old covenant people when they broke the covenant. God had said He would bring the diseases and plagues of Egypt on His people when they broke the covenant (Deut. 28:58-61); this is why Revelation uses the motif of the plagues of Egypt so frequently (cf. Rev. 16; see my article Revelation, Book of the Covenant Curses). Thus the 100 pound white stones that the Romans were raining on Jerusalem are portrayed symbolically as 100 pound hailstones. Again, the “hail” in Revelation 16:21 is not literal hail, it is symbolic of the one of the covenant curses that God said He would bring on His old covenant people when they broke the covenant. While the hailstones of Revelation 16:21 are symbolic, contained in this symbol is a reference to the weight of the great white stones that the Romans were raining on Jerusalem. Again, this aids in identifying what the symbol of the plague of hail is referring to.
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Oldmantook
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I think you've missed my point. Everyone who believes in the "rapture" believes that it occurs when Jesus silently steals away the church "as a thief" - prior to the tribulation. Jesus stated the exact opposite. In Rev 16:15-16 Jesus plainly states that he is coming as a thief (v.15) prior to the battle of Armageddon (v.16). The OP of this thread asked where is the rapture? According to Jesus, the rapture happens right before Armageddon. The rapture = the Second Coming. One event; not two separate events and is post-trib.
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I think I did. I believe I still may be.
When you wrote this:
Oldmantook said:
Where are you getting that from?
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Oldmantook
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All rapture believers agree that when Jesus said he will come as a thief he is referring to the pretrib rapture. However Jesus himself said that he will come as a thief not before the tribulation but after the tribulation - just prior to the battle of Armageddon. Read Rev 16:15-16. Armageddon occurs post-trib; not pretrib, therefore the second coming and "rapture" are the same event.
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My understanding on this is still a bit wobbly.....but I'm not of the belief that there is a future "battle of Armageddon" or a rapture. There's confusion between the "coming of His kingdom" and His second coming (they aren't the same). His kingdom CAME to earth (spiritually) in a series of events beginning with Jesus' birth.
The battle (in my belief) that's mentioned in Rev 16 is past - I believe that's the Jewish revolts (and there WAS tribulation prior to that, you're right). Paul told the faithful followers that, in THEIR day, Jesus coming in judgment wouldn't be like a thief for those who are believers:
1 Thessalonians 5: "2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And THEY shall not escape. 4 But YOU, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
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Going back a bit in Revelation (11:19) where it says,
and:
"Then the temple of God WAS OPENED in heaven, and the ark of His Covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake and great hail."~ Rev 11:19
and:
Revelation 15:8 ~ "The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and NO ONE WAS ABLE TO ENTER THE TEMPLE TILL the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed."
...that also seems to be a PAST event when the veil of the temple was torn....and God's wrath was completed (in 70 AD).
...that also seems to be a PAST event when the veil of the temple was torn....and God's wrath was completed (in 70 AD).
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Oldmantook
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While it is true that his kingdom came to earth, it is also true that Jesus will one day return to the earth a second time - hence his second coming. Armageddon is the battle in which Jesus returns to the earth and vanquishes his enemies. The scriptures state that his second coming at Armageddon will be a visible event. If the battle of Armageddon has already taken place as you assert, then everyone on earth at that time should have been eye-witnesses to Jesus' return. But there is no such recording in history of people seeing Jesus' return.
"Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen. Rev 1:7
Since no one in history has yet seen his second coming, I must assume that it must still take place in the future.
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I agree.
I disagree. This is past ("those that pierced Him" witnessed it). This (I believe) was the destruction of the temple/Jerusalem (it wasn't Him "returning to earth" - but the power of His Kingdom that came). You seem to be combining His second coming and the coming of His kingdom.
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Oldmantook
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I suggest you reread the passage as it states every eye will see Him coming in the clouds. At the destruction of the temple, there was no recorded witness of Jesus coming in the clouds. It is an event yet to be fulfilled.
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I'm not sure what makes you believe I haven't read that passage (because we disagree?).
"Coming in the clouds" has a particular meaning to it. In the old testament when it talks about God coming in the clouds it was always a time when Israel was backslid and He was coming in judgment using clouds as prophetic language of his coming using another nations army to kill some and enslave the rest. Just like he did in 70 A.D. It's not a literal action (in my belief).
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Oldmantook
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In my opinion, your reasoning is problematic. If you believe Jesus' coming in the clouds to earth is just figurative, then you would also have to assert that his ascension to heaven from earth was also figurative, however Acts 1:9-11 states this:
And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”
The plain meaning of this verse indicates that this is not figurative language as it describes actions which involve watching/seeing which are literal/physical. IN JUST THE SAME WAY - Jesus will return to the earth in the same way he departed from the earth and all eyes will see Him.
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What you're quoting is a description. What I'm asserting is that the specific phrase, "coming in the clouds"....no mention of "earth" (what you quoted does not include that phrase) is often an OT phrase that depicts God's judgement. IOW....the religious leaders of Jesus' time (and those educated in the Scriptures) were going to recognize that phrase and trace it back to when the phrase was used and make the connection (which was the prophecy in Daniel 7).
Like I said earlier....I'm still a bit wobbly on this as this is a new understanding for me (just a few months). I'd believed as you do (from what I can tell) for decades....but now reading Scripture with this framework makes so much more sense of the text.
In an effort to clarify better.....here's a quote from Hank Hennegraaff on the topic:
Hank Hennegraaff said:
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Another thing. Think about just this verse (what Jesus said to Caiaphas) - if this is a literal observation (not a "knowing") how is it possible to SEE the Son of Man both sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One....and coming on the clouds of heaven?
It makes more sense -to me- that Jesus was making reference to Daniel 7 (thus -as Hank Hennegraaf wrote, "He was not only claiming to be the preexistent sovereign of the universe, but He was prophesying that He would vindicate His claim before the very court that was now condemning him to death"):
It makes more sense -to me- that Jesus was making reference to Daniel 7 (thus -as Hank Hennegraaf wrote, "He was not only claiming to be the preexistent sovereign of the universe, but He was prophesying that He would vindicate His claim before the very court that was now condemning him to death"):
“But I say to all of you, in the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven ~ Matthew 26:64
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In my vision in the night I continued to watch: And I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence. ~ Daniel 7:13
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In my vision in the night I continued to watch: And I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence. ~ Daniel 7:13
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Oldmantook
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In my opinion, the preterist view is fraught with problems. I don't deny that there are different "comings" referred to in Scripture. I also acknowledge that Jesus' statement to Caiaphas referring to his coming in the clouds was a reference to his sonship and judgment as it pertained to that place and time. However, the germane question is, is the Second Coming referred to in Revelation the same as the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.? If the Second Coming is the 70 A.D. event, then it should have been accompanied by a physical resurrection of the dead saints. As far as I'm aware of, there is no historical record of any dead being resurrected at that time. In order to get around this, preterists have to interpret the resurrection of the saints as a figurative event and not as a literal bodily resurrection of deceased believers. This is just one example of how preterists tend to spiritualize and interpret things that don't line up with their view as they have to resort on interpreting events as figurative. That is an extremely unbalanced view in my opinion as while some things referred to in Scripture are figurative, not all prophetic events are figurative. Some are in literal.
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No. I've been saying there's a distinction between His second coming and the "coming of the Son of Man". It seems that it's rapture believers that make the two one in the same.
But Revelation 1 doesn't seem to be referring to His second coming. Look at the prologue:
This passage doesn't say "coming with the clouds TO EARTH"....just "coming with the clouds" (just as Jesus said to Caiaphas and as is written in Daniel 7).Revelation 1 said:
And why are you saying this needs to be accompanied by the resurrection of dead saints (that happened - in part- at His crucifixion during the feast of first fruits).
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Oldmantook
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We agree on this.
I'm not a rapture believer but those who believe in the rapture believe it as a future event. If you're a preterist may I assume that you believe the Second Coming is a past event? Maybe it's just me but I have difficulty comprehending your view.
If not the earth, why does it say every eye will see Him? And if not the earth, then why do all the tribes of the earth, mourn because of Him? Your interpretation brings up more questions than answers.
Were there any dead saints resurrected in 70 A.D.?
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