Rapture Wimpism

[Waterwerx]

makes it clear that there is no room for “rapture wimps” in the Christian Church.

This has to be one of the stupidest lines of reasoning I've ever read on here and is a poor choice of logic(and words) to use in regards to those who believe in the removal of the Church prior to the 7 year tribulation period. It comparably amounts to someone referring to "non-pretribbers" as gluttons for punishment and declaring they should relocate to Iran or Sudan if they feel their lives aren't experiencing an appropriate amount of persecution.

Some of us do make a distinction between persecution and judgment, which has nothing to do with being a so-called "rapture wimp", "escapist", or whatever other provocative terminology you opt to use.

But the promise is only for those who resolve not to be “rapture wimps.”

All wound up on pre-trib/post-trib and haven't even learned the bare-bones basics:
John 3:16

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

The Greek words for "tribulation" and "wrath" are two different Greek words.

God pours out His wrath at Christ's Second Coming when Christ returns in "flaming fire", based on 2 Thessalonians chapter 1.

The following verses completely destroy the pretrib doctrine.


Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.　
(A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church.)

Rev 12:12　 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."　
(At least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan, instead of the wrath of God, as revealed by the verse above.)

.

in Revelation the souls of those killed for their testimony are crying out for the Lord to avenge them. They are told to wait for the rest of those who enjoy a similar fate. If you are killed in this period for your testimony of Jesus Christ does not checkmate the pretrib position as they believe that many will come to Christ who missed the rapture and recognize the antichrist and are willing to die for their testimony. This scenario is not any proof against pretribullation and we will see soon who is right as the time is approaching.

 

[Marilyn C]

I disagree with you that Jesus ever lost that authority in the 3rd heaven. We see Job presenting himself to the LORD and the LORD said to him have you considered my servant Job. The LORD had the authority up there and never lost it. I agree the rapture those is Christ are taken to the 3rd heaven. The kingdom of Christ is on earth and Jesus will reign here for 1000 years. The throne of David is an earthly throne and Christ will sit upon it. In Acts 1 just before Jesus ascended;

Hi Brian,

Thank you for replying. Some good scriptures there. Now I never said that Jesus ever lost His authority. So let`s look closely at what I am saying.

The Godhead is far beyond the created order. God the Father`s throne, His authority is there and rules over all. When the glorified Jesus ascended we know that He went to the Father`s right hand, far above all. (Eph. 1: 20 & 21)

Now we also know that the Lord created all realms - the third heaven, the Universe and the atmospheric heavens and earth. (Col. 1: 16) And we know that in the third heaven God gave an angel, Lucifer opportunity to rule. He was found unworthy and cast out. No angel or man has ever been given authority in that realm.

So when we read Rev. 4 & 5 we see that it is the Lord Jesus Christ who is the worthy one, the only one able to rule with that great authority and power from that seat of power in God`s great kingdom - the third heaven. It is there that the Lord will be visibly crowned amid the myriads of angelic beings and the Body of Christ.

Now we know from Eph. 1: 10 that it is God`s purpose to unite all things under His Son Christ. So in every realm Christ will have authority over. He will be visible in His glorified body and rule throughout God`s great kingdom from the third heaven, over the Universal area and the earth.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Douggg]

Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for “rapture wimps” in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.


But the promise is only for those who resolve not to be “rapture wimps.”

I would call this thread "Rationalizing away the hope of the rapture - by any means necessary". Jesus is coming and his reward is with Him. The rapture is God's grace and mercy.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Hi Brian,

Thank you for replying. Some good scriptures there. Now I never said that Jesus ever lost His authority. So let`s look closely at what I am saying.

The Godhead is far beyond the created order. God the Father`s throne, His authority is there and rules over all. When the glorified Jesus ascended we know that He went to the Father`s right hand, far above all. (Eph. 1: 20 & 21)

Now we also know that the Lord created all realms - the third heaven, the Universe and the atmospheric heavens and earth. (Col. 1: 16) And we know that in the third heaven God gave an angel, Lucifer opportunity to rule. He was found unworthy and cast out. No angel or man has ever been given authority in that realm.

So when we read Rev. 4 & 5 we see that it is the Lord Jesus Christ who is the worthy one, the only one able to rule with that great authority and power from that seat of power in God`s great kingdom - the third heaven. It is there that the Lord will be visibly crowned amid the myriads of angelic beings and the Body of Christ.

Now we know from Eph. 1: 10 that it is God`s purpose to unite all things under His Son Christ. So in every realm Christ will have authority over. He will be visible in His glorified body and rule throughout God`s great kingdom from the third heaven, over the Universal area and the earth.

regards, Marilyn.

thanks marylin for your reply so can you explain how Jesus is to sit on the throne of David? Also in Zehc 14 it says the LORD is king over all the earth and his feet stand on the MT of Olive and it splits n all so the river flows year round and the nations are required to keep the feast of tabernacle or they get no rain. This shows the 2nd coming and the kingdom established and a continuation of events on earth. I maintain that this is Jesus ruling and David is raised up as king over Israel while Jesus is king over the world. When the new Jerusalem comes Jesus rules there there is a transition from the kingdom being on earth to there and that kingdom has no end. the kingdom is in the 3rd heaven from now until the 2nd coming in my opinion. We may disagree but thanks for being gracious and sharing your views. Please show how jesus can be on Davids throne and not reign on earth. Thanks.

 

[keras]

I would call this thread "Rationalizing away the hope of the rapture - by any means necessary". Jesus is coming and his reward is with Him. The rapture is God's grace and mercy.

A bit of rationalizing and common sense by the rapture believers would be good.
We who refute the fanciful idea of a rapture to heaven of the Church, do have the perfect means to prove that such a thing is impossible: the Words of Jesus: John 3:13, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, Revelation 5:10. Whereas the rapturists have no scripture that says God will take His Church to heaven.

The rapture is a Satanic deception and God's grace and mercy will come to those who stand firm in their faith on His Day of wrath and in all that must take place before Jesus Returns.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

the verse in 2 Thess promises that those alive and remaining will be caught up in the air to meet the LORD. Corinthians 15 says those will be changed in the twinkling of an eye will not sleep. So for sure there is a time when people are caught up. The argument is when. If we are to be ready as no man knows the day or the hour how does that make sense if we have to wait for the antichrist 1st and then the abomination of desolation which tells you from that moment the antichrist has exactly 42 months to go?

 

[keras]

the verse in 2 Thess promises that those alive and remaining will be caught up in the air to meet the LORD. Corinthians 15 says those will be changed in the twinkling of an eye will not sleep. So for sure there is a time when people are caught up. The argument is when. If we are to be ready as no man knows the day or the hour how does that make sense if we have to wait for the antichrist 1st and then the abomination of desolation which tells you from that moment the antichrist has exactly 42 months to go?

The two quotes you mention are quite plain as to when they will happen:
1 Thessalonians 4:16...the Lord will descend from heaven.... The Return of Jesus to earth for His Millennium reign. Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3
1 Corinthians 15:50-56.... when Death is no more. This clearly happens after the Great White Throne Judgement. Revelation 20:13-14 and Revelation 21:4
Thinking these prophesies happen before those times, is wrong and just leads to confusion.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Yes the word descend is in 1 Thes 4 but the meeting is in the air. 7 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Chapter 5 goes on to give the signs of the day of the Lord and calls it coming like a thief in the night.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

This passage shows the day of the LORD mentioned in Ch 4 is associated with the cry for peace and safety this cry proceeds the day of judgment and is at hour where it will come like a thief in the night. Its ok for us to disagree as if Im right you will be pleasantly surprised and if your right Im committed to Jesus as my savior and have to be ready anyways.
We can both have this same fellowship here But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. That is the hope weather it is through natural death or rapture either pre mid of post tribulation.

 

[Marilyn C]

thanks marylin for your reply so can you explain how Jesus is to sit on the throne of David? Also in Zehc 14 it says the LORD is king over all the earth and his feet stand on the MT of Olive and it splits n all so the river flows year round and the nations are required to keep the feast of tabernacle or they get no rain. This shows the 2nd coming and the kingdom established and a continuation of events on earth. I maintain that this is Jesus ruling and David is raised up as king over Israel while Jesus is king over the world. When the new Jerusalem comes Jesus rules there there is a transition from the kingdom being on earth to there and that kingdom has no end. the kingdom is in the 3rd heaven from now until the 2nd coming in my opinion. We may disagree but thanks for being gracious and sharing your views. Please show how jesus can be on Davids throne and not reign on earth. Thanks.

Hi Brian,

I believe I need to explain a bit. I was taught this eschatology at Bible College (Apostolic) in the late `60`s, by Godly men from the Welsh revival and their disciples. Thus it is not something I have made up, (God forbid). I realise it may be new to people and I appreciate you taking the time to read and ask me questions.

Because it is such an important topic, re: our eternal destination and what we believe, it is worth looking into, even if just being able to discount it. I have recently posted a series in my blogs on `The Eternal Purposes,` and that will give you greater detail. I also desire to start some threads on this topic so it can be discussed.

Now you have asked specific questions, which are important. I would not like our discussion to get lost on this thread as we are now venturing into another area. So I will prepare a thread where we can discuss.

Hope to see you there, bro, as you are asking pertinent questions that need to be looked at.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[mukk_in]

Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for “rapture wimps” in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.


But the promise is only for those who resolve not to be “rapture wimps.”

So true. Comfortable Christianity is not what the Bible teaches us.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Rapture Wimpism

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.


But the promise is only for those who resolve not to be “rapture wimps.”

What a wonderful and refreshing outlook on this comic book rapture nonsense , may God bless you jgr.

I love that thread title!!!

 

[jgr]

Rapture Wimpism


I love that thread title!!!

Thank you, LittleLambofJesus; and I love your GospelSkyRide.

 

[Anto9us]

Some Rapture views seem sort of wimpy
I can't swallow all of Jack Van Impe
John Hagge's still at the buffet
Gone to the Lord is Tim LaHaye

ch - (on Christ the solid rock I stand - etc. you know it)

Is my hope built on nothing less
Than Scofield's notes and Walvoord's best
I dare not trust the sweetest frame
Or wholly lean on Darby's claim

ch

When He shall come with trumpet sound
Lotta end time views will be shut down
Even Grant Jeffrey may think twice
And second thoughts for Tommy Ice

ch

 

[Biblewriter]

I think they were talking about people who buy the rapture and believe they will be taken away safely~
-------------------------------
John Nelson Darby invented the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine around 1830 AD

Then how did it happen to have been taught in the second, third, and (probably) fourth centuries, during Medieval times, and by more that two dozen writers in the 1600s and 1700s?

 

[Biblewriter]

Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for “rapture wimps” in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.


But the promise is only for those who resolve not to be “rapture wimps.”

This post is based on the false notion that belief in a pre-trib rapture is "escapism." It is actually based on an honest persuasion that this is what the scriptures actually teach.

The hard truth is, that although the scriptures very plainly say that there will be an event that we call "the rapture," they simply do not say when it will take place, in regard to other events prophesied for the end times. So all positions on the timing of the rapture are based on interpretation.

I am thoroughly persuaded that even a mediocre understanding of the prophetic scriptures makes a belief in the pre-trib rapture absolutely necessary. For the end time scenario in the prophetic scriptures is simply not about the church. It is about God's discipline of his rebellious people the Jews, and the program He has designed to finally bring them to repentance, so He will be able to justly keep the ancient promises he made to their ancestors.

Our God has not only revealed the plan to us, but has flatly declared that it will work, that the final result will be that they will finally repent and turn back to himself.

 

[Anto9us]

Pre-Tribbers are not Pre-Tribbers because of 'escapism' - but because of how they interpret the Scriptures - I used to be one.

I came to reject the idea of a "GAP" between 69th and 70th week of Daniel -- the idea that "the Prophetic Clock STOPPED" and awaits a resuming and final shauvim with a rebuilt temple and renewed animal sacrifices was eventually more than I could take in.

Forecasted times for Israel - such as sojourn in Egypt (about 400 years) and the 70 years captivity in Babylon -- they ran CONCURRENTLY and CONSECUTIVELY, no gaps.

Why shouldn't Daniels entire 70 shauvim be viewed the same way?

 

[keras]

Do humans ever go to heaven?

The belief and teaching that all humans have natural immortality via an immortal soul can be traced back thousands of years. We can see from history that nations like Egypt and Babylon taught their people about an immortal soul in every human, that continued to live, to think and to experience life, after the body had died. Depending on the nation and on their spiritual theology they had, would come various teachings about where and under what conditions this immortal soul would experience after the death of the physical body. Some nations would bury the dead body in graves with all kinds of things for the departed to take with them and to use to enjoy in the afterlife.

Different nations may have had different places where the departed soul would live when it left the dead body, but to put it in simple language, the immortal soul was in a "heaven" of some sort. They even had gloomy underworlds for those not thought to have done enough good in their physical lives to warrant the prize of "heaven."

All this should start to sound somewhat familiar with certain teaching and beliefs of many "Christian" churches and organizations. Many have heard the "hell-fire and brimstone" sermons preached loud and vigorously by a Christian minister or Camp-meeting tent revivalist. Such preaching of course includes telling you that if you "give your heart to the Lord" and turn from sin, you can "go to heaven" and live in bliss, doing...well they are not sure, maybe singing and strumming on a harp?

Just about all Christians today believe they shall "get to heaven" one day. They firmly believe that going to heaven is one of the basic rewards of being Christian. To think, and to teach

otherwise, to them, is pretty close to being a nutty and strange heretic. They are convinced the Bible shows and tells us that going to heaven is the automatic reward of the children of God. And most believe that going to heaven takes place when the physical body stops breathing and dies. Yet this common and prevailing theological view was not the common view or teaching of the early New Testament Church of God.

The early NT church did not teach or believe in going to heaven at death, for those faithful Christians. Church history shows that it was only through the teachings of people like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and others that most professing Christians gradually came to adopt the belief of the immortal soul, and going immediately "somewhere" after the death of the body. Many were coming into the popular church of the Roman Empire, founded in Rome, who already held to Hellenistic philosophy, Egyptian mythology, and Babylonian Mystery religions, with an after death life of some sort as the foundation of it all. They did not want to give up this teaching and belief, just as they did not want to abandon many other false teachings and practices. So, to accommodate them the large popular church took many of these old pagan beliefs and re-clothed them with Christian garments. Hence, as the millenniums came and went today's doctrines of the immortal soul as taught together with an ever burning hell fire for the wicked, a purgatory for those who may not have sinned unto eternal torment, and can possibly yet be granted heaven and a heaven where God is, for the righteous. All this came to be church doctrines.

Most Christians believe they will at some point "get to heaven" where God is dwelling. Some do not believe you go to heaven at death, but that death is a sleep until the resurrection, then when Jesus returns to raise the righteous dead, all go back with Him to heaven for a thousand years, until the new earth comes into being. Others believe that Christ returns to "rapture" His Church away from the terrible tribulation then taking place on the earth, and that they spent either 7 years or 3 1/2 years in heaven, before returning again with Christ to set up the Kingdom of God on earth for a thousand years.

Whatever the various beliefs of certain religious sects and denominations is on this matter, just about all of them teach and believe that the good Christian will someday, for some period of time "go to heaven" where the Father lives and dwells in the heavenly Jerusalem.


IF WE SHALL GO TO HEAVEN ONE DAY....
And if this is a fundamental plain teaching of the Bible, then surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as: "When we get to heaven," "When we see each other in heaven," "They are up there in heaven with God," "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return," "We shall be in heaven where God is one day." BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!
BUT, what we do read in the Bible is the Words of Jesus: No man goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13 Where I go, you cannot come. John 7:34 Your home is in this world, Mine is not. John 8:23 I do not pray, Father, that You take them out of this world.... John 17:15

So the truth is, the idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is a straight out Satanic lie; one of his most successful ones, that will cause many unprepared Christians to fall on the Day of trial. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

Most Christians think that heaven is our destination and preachers tout it from the pulpit. Why then didn't the people of the Bible use such language? Could it be that they knew that going off to heaven where God the Father now dwells was NEVER promised to any earthy mortal person?

The word "heaven" is used 570 times in the Bible. "Heavenly" appears 23 times and "heavens" is used 121 times. Surely, somewhere, in all those uses we can find a statement: "When we are in heaven" or "We are going to go to heaven" or maybe "He has gone to God in heaven." If you take a Bible concordance you can find all the verses where "heaven," "heavenly," and heavens" are used throughout the Bible. Look them up! See if you can find a verse that says, "We shall go to heaven," "Heaven is our eternal abode," "They are up in heaven" or any plain statement about Christians or children of God going to be with God in heaven for ANY length of time. You have over 500 places where "heaven" is used. Try to find any verse that tells us clearly we shall someday, sometime, go to live where God the Father dwells.

There are THREE heavens mentioned in the Bible. 1) The heaven [atmosphere] where the birds fly. 2) the heaven [space] where the planets and stars are. 3) The heaven [spiritual] where God's throne is, where God is now.

I knew a man in Christ.... caught up to the THIRD heaven....He was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words....2 Cor. 12:2-4 The third heaven is where God dwells!

KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ?
Some will say, "Well Christ talked about our being in the Kingdom of heaven. Surely that proves we shall 'go to heaven'. If it does, then some shall be in heaven while others are not. Matthew 5:3-5. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven....blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. The Kingdom OF heaven is the Kingdom that BELONGS to heaven. It is owned and operated by heaven. the Kingdom that BELONGS to God, not the Kingdom inside God. The Gospels according to Mark and Luke use "Kingdom OF God"

OUR REWARD IS IN HEAVEN
Is not our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1 But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven.....Luke 6:23 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:4

Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not! Truly, Christians will receive rewards and we are to inherit eternal life, but when? Eternal life comes at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor.15; Rev.2:10; 2 Tim.4:8 Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev. 22:12 Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his return.

NAMED TO GO TO HEAVEN?
Are not Christians named and written down in a book to go to heaven? ….but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven Luke 10:20 To the general assembly and church of
the firstborn, which are written in heaven....Heb. 12:23

Do these verses say, "Because you will go to heaven" or "The church of the firstborn will one day get to heaven" ? No! Our names (God knows who are His) are written down in the book of life, the book of life being in heaven. But we receive life eternal after the Great White Throne Judgement, when the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15

OUR HOPE....TO GO TO HEAVEN?
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel. Col.1:5 What is the hope for Christians? Paul answers in

another letter he wrote: But if there be NO RESURRECTION of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.....then they which are also fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED....For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man on his own order: Christ the firstfruits: AFTERWARDS they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 1 Cor. 15: 13-23

Our HOPE is Christ, who has been raised from the dead and is now in heaven, waiting to be sent back to this earth when He shall RESURRECT the DEAD. 1 Thes.4: 16

Colossians 1:5 does NOT say, "Our hope is to get to heaven." Or "The church's hope is to be with Christ in heaven." It says: our HOPE is kept in heaven. That hope is Christ and His Return. Philippians 3:20 Christian believers are citizens of heaven and from heaven we can expect our Deliverer to come: The Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice! This Kingdom is in heaven that we are citizens of. If we be Christ's, we belong to His family. We are brothers of His, we are part of God's family, His children, and so of His government, kingdom, which is at present in heaven. Not that we are in heaven, for the reality is: we live on earth, but the Kingdom, where our citizenship is; that we now belong to, is in heaven.

NO MAN HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN
Here is a plain and easy to understand verse: And NO MAN has ASCENDED up to heaven, except for He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 BELIEVE what Christ said, He should know. He was in heaven with the Father from the beginning, and He did not see any human ever come from earth up to heaven. It’s indisputable, Enoch could not have gone to the third heaven, neither did Moses, nor did Elijah. All humans who have ever lived, or will live, up to the Return of Jesus and are not still alive when Jesus comes, will sleep in death. They will be in the grave, and the martyrs, those killed for their faith, Revelation 20:4, wait to hear the voice of the Son of man, to rise from the dead in a resurrection. Then, for a thousand years they shall reign with Christ on His throne over this earth, as they establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

At the end of the thousand years comes the new heavens and the new earth. Then the heavenly Jerusalem together with God the Father will come from heaven to this new earth, which will then become the dwelling place of the throne of the universe for all Eternity.

What we can say is that we, the children of God, will one day be in heaven.....yes.....when heaven comes to earth. Revelation 21:1-4 But what we cannot say is that any human will be taken up to heaven to avoid the wrath to come. The Lord promises protection to all these who place their trust in Him and this may be a profound spiritual experience. Nahum 1:1-8, Isaiah 43:2, Luke 21:34-36

Ref: Keith Hunt

 

[Biblewriter]

Do humans ever go to heaven?

There is a very simple and absolute answer to this question, our Lord's answer to the thief on the cross.

"Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:43

 

[keras]

Why shouldn't Daniels entire 70 shauvim be viewed the same way?

Because there Has been and still is currently; a gap.
The 69th 'week' ended with Jesus being 'cut off'. Daniel 9:25-26 There has not yet been a seven year period of time that matches what is prophesied for that last 'week'.
We see in Revelation, where there are several periods that relate to each half of that 'week', leading up to the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. We await their fulfilment.