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Rapture timing

Riberra

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You're entitled to believe whatever you want to believe Riberra, even if there's no such thing as a Santa Claus. If you believe 1 Thessalonians 4:14 speaks of souls going to heaven, than you believe only what you want to believe.
You misread what i wrote:
The souls of the dead believers are already in Heaven with Jesus.*Jesus will bring the souls of the dead believers who are in Heaven with Him to be resurrected on the Earth, that is what 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 tell us.

I see that you are still in the dark about where your soul will go after that your physical body will die....is that right ?

Do you believe that you have a soul ?
 
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Psalm3704

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
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Jesus will bring the souls of the dead believers who are in Heaven with Him to be resurrected on the Earth that is what 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 tell us.

The body and the soul are two different and separate entities.

Wise guy! Show me where in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 it said Christ will bring souls with Him from heaven.







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Riberra

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The body and the soul are two different and separate entities.

Wise guy! Show me where in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 it said Christ will bring souls with Him from heaven.
1 Thessalonians 4:14]

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first
 
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Psalm3704

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I see that you are still in the dark about where your soul will go after that your physical body will die

I'm not the one who believes in soul sleep.

Someone just stuck their foot in their mouth big time. ROFL!












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Riberra

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No such thing as Soul-Sleep!
Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should REST yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

RESTing as in a state of sleep.

Related to resting
Synonyms
dormant, dozing, napping, asleep, sleeping, slumbering


1 Thessalonians 4:14

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him.
 
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keras

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Do humans ever go to heaven?

The belief and teaching that all humans have natural immortality via an immortal soul can be traced back thousands of years. We can see from history that nations like Egypt and Babylon taught their people about an immortal soul in every human, that continued to live, to think and to experience life, after the body had died. Depending on the nation and on their spiritual theology they had, would come various teachings about where and under what conditions this immortal soul would experience after the death of the physical body. Some nations would bury the dead body in graves with all kinds of things for the departed to take with them and to use to enjoy in the afterlife.

Different nations may have had different places where the departed soul would live when it left the dead body, but to put it in simple language, the immortal soul was in a "heaven" of some sort. They even had gloomy underworlds for those not thought to have done enough good in their physical lives to warrant the prize of "heaven."
All this should start to sound somewhat familiar with certain teaching and beliefs of many "Christian" churches and organizations. Many have heard the "hell-fire and brimstone" sermons preached loud and vigorously by a Christian minister or Camp-meeting tent revivalist. Such preaching of course includes telling you that if you "give your heart to the Lord" and turn from sin, you can "go to heaven" and live in bliss, doing...well they are not sure, maybe singing and strumming on a harp?

Just about all Christians today believe they shall "get to heaven" one day. They firmly believe that going to heaven is one of the basic rewards of being Christian. To think, and to teach otherwise, to them, is pretty close to being a nutty and strange heretic. They are convinced the Bible shows and tells us that going to heaven is the automatic reward of the children of God. And most believe that going to heaven takes place when the physical body stops breathing and dies. Yet this common and prevailing theological view was not the common view or teaching of the early New Testament Church of God.

The early NT church did not teach or believe in going to heaven at death, for those faithful Christians. Church history shows that it was only through the teachings of people like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and others that most professing Christians gradually came to adopt the belief of the immortal soul, and going immediately "somewhere" after the death of the body. Many were coming into the popular church of the Roman Empire, founded in Rome, who already held to Hellenistic philosophy, Egyptian mythology, and Babylonian Mystery religions, with an after death life of some sort as the foundation of it all. They did not want to give up this teaching and belief, just as they did not want to abandon many other false teachings and practices. So, to accommodate them the large popular church took many of these old pagan beliefs and re-clothed them with Christian garments. Hence, as the millenniums came and went today's doctrines of the immortal soul as taught together with an ever burning hell fire for the wicked, a purgatory for those who may not have sinned unto eternal torment, and can possibly yet be granted heaven and a heaven where God is, for the righteous. All this came to be church doctrines.

Most Christians believe they will at some point "get to heaven" where God is dwelling. Some do not believe you go to heaven at death, but that death is a sleep until the resurrection, then when Jesus returns to raise the righteous dead, all go back with Him to heaven for a thousand years, until the new earth comes into being. Others believe that Christ returns to "rapture" His Church away from the terrible tribulation then taking place on the earth, and that they spent either 7 years or 3 1/2 years in heaven, before returning again with Christ to set up the Kingdom of God on earth for a thousand years.

Whatever the various beliefs of certain religious sects and denominations is on this matter, just about all of them teach and believe that the good Christian will someday, for some period of time "go to heaven" where the Father lives and dwells in the heavenly Jerusalem.


IF WE SHALL GO TO HEAVEN ONE DAY....

And if this is a fundamental plain teaching of the Bible, then surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as: "When we get to heaven," "When we see each other in heaven," "They are up there in heaven with God," "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return," "We shall be in heaven where God is one day." BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!

Christians use such terminology all the time. Preachers use it from the pulpit. Why then didn't the people of the Bible use such language? Could it be that they knew that going off to heaven where God the Father now dwells was NEVER promised to any earthy mortal person?
The word "heaven" is used 570 times in the Bible. "Heavenly" appears 23 times and "heavens" is used 121 times. Surely, somewhere, in all those uses we can find a statement: "When we are in heaven" or "We are going to go to heaven" or maybe "He has gone to God in heaven." If you take a Bible concordance you can find all the verses where "heaven," "heavenly," and heavens" are used throughout the Bible. Look them up! See if you can find a verse that says, "We shall go to heaven," "Heaven is our eternal abode," "They are up in heaven" or any plain statement about Christians or children of God going to be with God in heaven for ANY length of time. You have over 500 places where "heaven" is used. Try to find any verse that tells us clearly we shall someday, sometime, go to live where God the Father dwells.

There are THREE heavens mentioned in the Bible. 1) The heaven [atmosphere] where the birds fly. 2) the heaven [space] where the planets and stars are. 3) The heaven [spiritual] where God's throne is, where God is now.
I knew a man in Christ.... caught up to the THIRD heaven....He was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words....2 Cor. 12:2-4 The third heaven is where God dwells!


KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ?

Some will say, "Well Christ talked about our being in the Kingdom of heaven. Surely that proves we shall 'go to heaven'. If it does, then some shall be in heaven while others are not. Matthew 5:3-5. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven....blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. The Kingdom OF heaven is the Kingdom that BELONGS to heaven. It is owned and operated by heaven. the Kingdom that BELONGS to God, not the Kingdom inside God. The Gospels according to Mark and Luke use "Kingdom OF God"


OUR REWARD IS IN HEAVEN

Is not our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1 But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven.....Luke 6:23 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:4

Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not! Truly, Christians will receive rewards and we are to inherit eternal life, but when? Eternal life comes at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor.15; Rev.2:10; 2 Tim.4:8 Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev. 22:12 Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his Return.


NAMED TO GO TO HEAVEN?

Are not Christians named and written down in a book to go to heaven? ….but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven Luke 10:20 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven....Heb. 12:23

Do these verses say, "Because you will go to heaven" or "The church of the firstborn will one day get to heaven" ? No! Our names (God knows who are His) are written down in the book of life, the book of life being in heaven. But we receive life eternal at Christ's return in glory, when the resurrection of the righteous saints takes place. See John 5: 25-29; 1 Cor. 15; 1Thess. 4: 16; and John 6: 37-39.

OUR HOPE....TO GO TO HEAVEN?

For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel. Col.1:5 What is the hope for Christians? Paul answers in another letter he wrote: But if there be NO RESURRECTION of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.....then they which are also fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED....For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man on his own order: Christ the firstfruits: AFTERWARDS they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 1 Cor. 15: 13-23

Our HOPE is Christ, who has been raised from the dead and is now in heaven, waiting to be sent back to this earth when He shall RESURRECT the DEAD. 1 Thes.4: 16
Colossians 1:5 does NOT say, "Our hope is to get to heaven." Or "The church's hope is to be with Christ in heaven." It says: our HOPE is kept in heaven. That hope is Christ and His Return when the saints are resurrected. Philippians 3:20 Christian believers are citizens of heaven and from heaven we can expect our Deliverer to come: The Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice! This Kingdom is in heaven that we are citizens of. If we be Christ's, we belong to His family. We are brothers of His, we are part of God's family, His children, and so of His government, kingdom, which is at present in heaven. Not that we are in heaven, for we live on earth, but the Kingdom, where our citizenship is; that we now belong to, is in heaven.
Yes, again Paul says we look to, wait, hope for Christ's Return and the resurrection.


NO MAN HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN

Here is a plain and easy to understand verse: And NO MAN has ASCENDED up to heaven, except for He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 BELIEVE what Christ said, He should know. He was in heaven with the Father from the beginning, and He did not see any human ever come from earth up to heaven. It’s indisputable, Enoch could not have gone to the third heaven, neither did Moses, nor did Elijah. All humans who have ever lived, or will live, up to the Return of Jesus and are not still alive when Jesus comes, will sleep in death. They will be in the grave, and the righteous, those accounted worthy, wait to hear the voice of the Son of man, to rise from the dead in a resurrection. Then, for a thousand years they shall reign with Christ on His throne over this earth, as they establish the Kingdom of God on earth.
At the end of the thousand years comes the new heavens and the new earth. Then the heavenly Jerusalem together with God the Father will come from heaven to this new earth, which will then become the dwelling place of the throne of the universe for all Eternity.

What we can say is that we, the children of God, will one day be in heaven.....yes.....when heaven comes to earth. But what we cannot say is that any human will be taken up to heaven to avoid the wrath to come. The Lord promises protection to all these who place their trust in Him and this may be a profound spiritual experience. Nahum 1:1-8, Isaiah 43:2, Luke 21:34-36 Ref: Keith Hunt

So is there a 'rapture removal to heaven' of Christians without any test? NO. Such a teaching is false, designed by Satan to lull the gullible into thinking they need do nothing for their safety.
 
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Psalm3704

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Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should REST yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

RESTing as in a state of sleep.

Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Only you would be crazy enough to think something would cry out in a loud voice praying to God when it's asleep. I have to admit Riberra, talking to you sometimes is like talking to an 8 year old, one can never tell the difference.

No such thing as soul sleep! And you're not proving this either with Revelation 6:9-11, just looking more foolish with each posts to be more accurate.






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Bible2+

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Straightshot said in post 569:

The professing "church" is filled with apostasy today .... so it is those unsaved and who profess only that will enter the tribulation at the time: those with out oil [the holy spirit] [Matthew 25:1-13] .... those spewed into the tribulation [Revelation 3:15-19]

Regarding "those spewed into the tribulation [Revelation 3:15-19]", note that Revelation 3:15-19 makes no reference to a tribulation, although Revelation 2:10 does.

Also, the 7 letters to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is today western Turkey).

Similarly, the letters of the books of Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, and 2 Thessalonians were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman empire.

And note that just as nothing requires that this latter set of 7 churches represents "7 church ages", so nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the former set does.

Also, all scripture is profitable for us as Christians (2 Timothy 3:16), so we can learn lessons for our own lives today by reading all these letters.

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With regard to Revelation 3:15-19, the ability of believers (though not their choosing) to repent from and to confess to God every sin they commit is assured. For if they do commit a sin, even if they are unaware of it, Jesus will send them warning and chastening to make sure they know they have sinned and need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-7, cf. Jeremiah 31:18-19). And he will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21a). It is only if they wrongly employ their free will to waste the time they are given, and ignore the warning and chastening, and refuse to repent (Revelation 2:21-23, cf. Deuteronomy 21:18-21) until death (1 John 5:16b) or Jesus' 2nd coming (Luke 12:45-46), that they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

If saved people become unsure whether or not they have ignored Jesus' warning, and refused to repent from a sin, they need to pray and ask him to reveal to them if there is any unrepentant sin in their heart (Psalms 139:23-24). And they need to be reading the Bible, every word of it (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16), over and over again. For it will expose to them any unrepentant sin which still exists within their heart (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:16), so they can repent from it and confess it to God, and be forgiven and perfect before God (2 Timothy 3:17; 1 John 1:9; 2 Corinthians 7:1).

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Also, with regard to Revelation 3:15-19, note that it, like Revelation 3:20, wasn't addressing unbelievers, but people who were already saved, already part of the church (Revelation 3:14,22). But after entering into initial salvation by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), those addressed had became so lukewarm in their works (Revelation 3:15-16) that they were in danger of ultimately losing their salvation (Revelation 3:16). For those who have been initially saved can ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30). Also, those addressed had become sinful (Revelation 3:17-18), so that they were warned that they needed to repent (Revelation 3:19). For those who have been initially saved can ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sinfulness (Hebrews 10:26-29).

So the shut door in Revelation 3:20, separating the initially-saved people from Jesus, can represent the danger they were in of ultimately losing their salvation. Their hearing Jesus' knockings, his warnings to them (Revelation 3:19,16), and their getting up to open the door to him, can then represent their repenting from their laziness and sinfulness, and entering back into an ultimately-saving relationship with Jesus.

Jesus' eating in Revelation 3:20 can represent his obedience to God the Father, his doing good works for the Father (John 4:34). The believer in Revelation 3:20 eating with Jesus can then represent that believer having real fellowship with Jesus, and God the Father, by his obedience to Jesus (John 14:21,23, John 12:26).

Straightshot said in post 569:

The Lord is going to immortalize His own just before He judges an unbelieving world .... believe this

That's right, at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7-21).

Straightshot said in post 569:

The promise: [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:10]

Note that none of those verses promises a pre-tribulation rapture.

Regarding 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, it means that Jesus was the 1st person to be physically resurrected into immortality (Colossians 1:18, Luke 24:39), and that no one else will be physically resurrected into immortality until his 2nd coming.

Regarding 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, note that Paul didn't call the rapture itself a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:51. For Jesus had already clearly taught the rapture in the Gospels (John 14:3b, Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1). Instead, the mystery explained in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (cf. John 11:26) is the instantaneous changing of living believers into immortal physical bodies, at the same, 2nd-coming time that the bodies of dead believers will be resurrected from their graves into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Romans 8:23-25). It is only after this physical, 2nd-coming resurrection and changing that the rapture (the physical catching up together/gathering together) of all believers will occur (1 Thessalonians 4:16b-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3b).

Also, in 1 Corinthians 15:52 the "last trump" is the trumpet which will sound after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:31).

Also, in 1 Corinthians 15:52 the only thing that will happen in the twinkling of an eye at Jesus' 2nd coming will be the resurrection (if dead) and the changing (if alive) of obedient believers into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). Other aspects of the 2nd coming will occur before and after that. The first thing visible to occur at the 2nd coming will be the light from the sun and moon temporarily being blocked from reaching the surface of the earth (Matthew 24:29). And there will be a meteorite shower, falling "stars" (Matthew 24:29). Then the sign of Jesus (possibly the Cross) will appear in the sky and the world will mourn when it realizes that the true Jesus is coming back (Matthew 24:30). Then the world will see Jesus in the clouds of the sky (Matthew 24:30). And the people of the world will wail (Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus is coming back in wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

But before the wrath of the 2nd coming begins (Revelation 19:15-21), all the souls of the dead in Christ (of all times), who will all come back with him from the 3rd heaven at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), will descend to the earth where their graves are and their bodies will be physically resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6). Then they and all those in Christ who survived the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured (caught up together, gathered together) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

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Also, 1 Corinthians 15:54b refers back to Isaiah 25:8, which refers to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:9; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54) and the earthly feast which will occur at that time (Isaiah 25:6-12), which will be the marriage feast of Revelation 19:9.

Straightshot said in post 569:

The promise: [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 . . .

Regarding 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, the hope in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 isn't the rapture, but the physical resurrection of the dead in Christ, which resurrection will occur immediately before the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). Similarly, the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, Jesus himself is the hope of believers (1 Timothy 1:1b), for he himself is eternal life (John 14:6), and only by believing in him can people have eternal life (John 3:36).

Also, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 shows that some in the church will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's rapture, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Also, even all those in the church who will die before or during the tribulation will be in the rapture, for it will include all dead believers of all times, right after they have been physically resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

In 1 Thessalonians 4:16, the trump-of-God resurrection of the church, at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15), is the last-trump resurrection of the church (1 Corinthians 15:52) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And the trump of God/last trump is the trumpet in Matthew 24:31, at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The comfort in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 is the comfort that the dead in Christ aren't lost, for their souls will come back from heaven with Jesus at his 2nd coming, and their physical bodies will be resurrected at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Similarly, the comfort in 1 Thessalonians 5:11 applies to those in Christ no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10-11).

Christians going through any tribulation are comforted by God even while they are going through that tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:3-7; 1 Peter 4:12-13). So Christians will be comforted by God even as they go through the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). They will be waiting for Jesus' 2nd coming and the rapture, which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Straightshot said in post 569:

The promise: [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9 . . .

Regarding 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9, verse 2 refers to "the day of the Lord". And the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view feels that 1 Thessalonians 5:2 supports the idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation, secret coming of Jesus to rapture the church and begin the tribulation. But not all thieves in the night come secretly, like cat burglars. Some like to rob homes via what is called a home invasion, which is quite obvious, and can involve the thieves not only stealing, but also killing and destroying (John 10:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, Revelation 19:7-21).

Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43-44, Revelation 16:15) doesn't mean that he will come secretly. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27,43-44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15), "Behold, he cometh with clouds [1 Thessalonians 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7).

Similarly, Jesus' coming as a thief in the night doesn't mean that his coming is imminent. For he can't come until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) means that he will come even upon Christians when they aren't expecting him only if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually) during the tribulation. Compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3. Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the tribulation's final stage, still watching (staying awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his 2nd coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43).

Regarding Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires that the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' 2nd coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation, the unsaved world could come to believe that his 2nd coming has already happened (Matthew 24:24-26).

That is, note that Matthew 24:37-41 refers to "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-30).

Matthew 24:37-41 means that the unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it actually happens. For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (of Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9); and the power that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36); and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected 1st battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

Straightshot said in post 569:

The promise: [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:1 . . .

Regarding 2 Thessalonians 2:1, it refers to what will happen at the 2nd coming (Mark 13:26-27).

Straightshot said in post 569:

The evidence: Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:4; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:1-4 [those already on thrones]]

Regarding Revelation 20:1-4, in verse 4, "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them" refers to during the future millennium on the earth (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10), when, for example, the 12 apostles will sit on 12 thrones "judging" the 12 tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in the sense of ongoing rule, like how the "judges" ruled Israel in the book of Judges in the Old Testament.

Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that only those people in the church who will be beheaded by the Antichrist will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection and reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium. For the 1st resurrection will be the physical resurrection of the dead of the entire church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient person in the church (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that the 1st resurrection will happen sometime after Revelation 19:7 to 20:3. For just as the gathering together (rapture) of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will happen right before Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, so will the 1st resurrection. For the resurrection of the church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52) will immediately precede the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Revelation 20:4-6 simply means that the obedient part of the church (of all times), which by that time will have already been resurrected, gathered together, and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7), will then live and reign with him on the earth during the millennium. In Revelation 20:4, the original Greek word (zao: G2198) translated as "and they lived" means just that. It doesn't mean "and they resurrected" at the time of Revelation 20:4-6. After those resurrected in the 1st resurrection have lived through the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), everyone else who has ever died will be resurrected at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

*******

Straightshot said in post 576:

No man has gone to heaven except the One who has come down from heaven

John 3:13 means that no man but Jesus had ascended into heaven in a way involving his own power. For Elijah had ascended into heaven, but by an external power (2 Kings 2:11). And if he did that, then Enoch and Moses could have also ascended into heaven by an external power (Hebrews 11:5, Genesis 5:24, Jude 1:9). And at one point during the future tribulation, so will the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church, represented by the "man child", be caught up into heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus). And the 2 witnesses will also eventually be taken into heaven (Revelation 11:12). Also, the apostle Paul, at one point during his lifetime, was temporarily taken into heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-7), just as the apostle John was at one point (Revelation 4).

Straightshot said in post 576:

And dead men no nothing .... are not ware of time passing in the material world on the earth

Are you thinking of the idea of "soul sleep"?

If so, note that only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21) or in fiery punishment in Hades (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

Sometime after the subsequent millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be physically resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which will be the 2nd death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will be tormented along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

Also, the future, eternal, conscious torment of the unsaved must not be considered as eternal life, but as an eternal, conscious, ongoing, 2nd death (Revelation 21:8, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45b-46).

--

Materialists think that consciousness can involve only that which is physical, and that it arises by having a certain number of neuronal connections in one's brain. So some scientists could be trying to create a supercomputer with enough neural network connections so that (they hope) it will become conscious. But the Bible shows that humans are more than just physical bodies (1 Thessalonians 5:23), and that human souls can have consciousness outside of their bodies, whether their bodies are still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or have died (Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 16:22b-23). Also, angels have consciousness, even though they are referred to simply as "spirits" (Hebrews 1:7).

So consciousness per se isn't something which requires a certain number of neuronal connections, but can be based on something even more fundamental: spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23). All consciousness being ultimately based on spirit would make sense, for God is an infinite Spirit and an infinite consciousness (John 4:24, Psalms 139:7-10, Jeremiah 23:24). And if spirit is the same as consciousness, then every kind of created thing can have some consciousness (Revelation 5:13, Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), for everything exists within God (Acts 17:28), having been brought into and maintained in existence by God's Spirit (Psalms 104:30).

A scientific way to think of this would be that the relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc^2, which means that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by, for example, the equation s=ec^3, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny photon of energy. And if all matter is based on energy, and all energy is based on spirit, and all spirit is consciousness, then all matter is ultimately based on consciousness, and so all matter can have some consciousness. This would explain how a puff of wind, a wave of water, a tree, or a mountain can obey a human command (Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), and how every kind of created thing can worship God (Revelation 5:13, Psalms 148).
 
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Psalm3704 said in post 579:

At the Rapture, the Church MEETS Jesus in the air in the clouds. At the Second Coming, Jesus sets His feet on the earth at the Mount of Olives.

Note that nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 says or requires that Jesus won't at that same coming subsequently descend to the earth on a white horse, as in Revelation 19. And there is no explicit descent to the earth, or a white horse, in Matthew 24:30 either, but it is still the same 2nd coming as Revelation 19:7-21. And even in Revelation 19:7-21, there is no explicit descent to the earth, even though it is the same 2nd coming as Zechariah 14:3-5, which has no explicit white horse.

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

The gathering of “saints” AFTER the tribulation is done by ANGELS. The gathering of the Church to Jesus in the Pre-Trib Rapture is done by THE LORD HIMSELF.

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 doesn't say that the Lord will come "by himself", just as nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 requires that the Lord himself won't be accompanied by his angels at that time. For otherwise there could be no "voice of the archangel" heard at that time. And 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as Matthew 24:30-31. Jesus will send forth his angels at that time in order to gather together (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) all the "caught up" believers (1 Thessalonians 4:17) in myriad different places in the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Mark 13:27, Matthew 24:31) to the one place in the sky above Jerusalem where the returned Jesus will be, before he lands on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

The Second Coming relates to Israel.

Note that just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

That is, all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

The Rapture occurs for Jesus’ heavenly people, the Church (Philippians 3:20 . . .

Regarding Philippians 3:20, there the original Greek word (politeuma: G4175) translated as "conversation" means citizenship. The citizenship of Christians is currently in heaven (Philippians 3:20) because the literal city of New Jerusalem is currently in heaven (Hebrews 12:22, Galatians 4:26), and Christians become citizens of New Jerusalem through their faith in the New Covenant of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28).

But in the future, New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2), will descend from heaven to a new earth (Revelation 21:1-3). So the citizenship of Christians will then be on the new earth. Also, even before the time of the new earth, at Jesus' 2nd coming he will establish the kingdom of God physically on the earth, during the millennium, along with the resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). So at that time, the citizenship of Christians will also be on the earth.

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

The Rapture occurs for Jesus’ heavenly people, the Church (Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 12:22 . . .

Regarding Hebrews 12:22, note that it says "ye are come", not "ye will come" in a future, pre-tribulation rapture.

For Hebrews 12:22, like Ephesians 2:6, can refer figuratively to our present salvation under the New Covenant (Galatians 4:24-26, Hebrews 12:22,24).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

At the Rapture, Jesus comes FOR His people, the Church (John 14:3 . . .

Regarding John 14:3, note that there is no pre-tribulation-rapture idea there, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. Also, the pre-tribulation-rapture view can't (as is sometimes done) claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons that Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the physically resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their still-conscious souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

The Rapture OPENS the door for the “man of sin” to rise to power. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8.

Regarding 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8, the restrainer of the Antichrist could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit, because in the future, the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), while the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he is always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the church or the Holy Spirit in the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some believers in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). Also, Mark 13:11b expressly shows that the Holy Spirit will still be with believers during the future tribulation.

Also, the tribulation passage of Revelation 14:12-13 is the same idea as 1 Thessalonians 5:10-11, meaning that obedient believers can have the Holy Spirit's comfort at any time (John 14:15-17), in any tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4-7), no matter whether they live or die.

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

The Rapture is IMMINENT; it can occur at ANY moment.

Note that no scripture says or requires that.

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

No one knows the EXACT DAY of the Rapture (it is UNKNOWN)--

Note that Matthew 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36); he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it is possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and partial preterist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the 1st verse means that no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the 2nd verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming.

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

We are exhorted to be WAITING and WATCHING.

In the Bible, when we are told to "watch" for Jesus' 2nd coming (Mark 13:35-37), the original Greek word (gregoreuo: G1127) translated as "watch" doesn't mean to stare with our eyes hoping to see someone appear at any moment. Instead, it means "to keep awake" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), like in Matthew 26:40, 1 Thessalonians 5:6, and Mark 13:36-37.

We are to keep spiritually awake as we wait for Jesus' 2nd coming. For if we fall spiritually asleep, that is, fall into backsliding, there is no assurance that we will recover our right relationship with Jesus before his 2nd coming (Matthew 24:48-51), just as if we fall physically asleep waiting for something to happen, there is no assurance that we will wake back up in time to see it happen.

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, believers will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:42-43, Matthew 25:13, Luke 21:36), which Jesus has just finished saying won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a believer isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming, it will take that believer by surprise (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that believer will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, even when believers know the truth that Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

In the “tribulation” and at the Second Coming, the WICKED are TAKEN/DESTROYED in the JUDGMENT, and the RIGHTEOUS are LEFT BEHIND to enter the Millennial Kingdom. Matthew 13:30 . . .

Regarding Matthew 13:30, which is part of the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30,36-43), note that in Matthew 13:38 the good seed are the elect, and the tares are the nonelect, the human children of Satan, who can't ever believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47). Matthew 13:40-42 won't occur at the 2nd coming, but at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43, the kingdom of the Father is after the great white throne judgment, when a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

Surviving tribulation saints are NOT translated (into immortal bodies) at the Second Coming of Christ, but carry on with ordinary activities, like farming, construction, and giving birth. Isaiah 65:20-25.

Regarding Isaiah 65:20, note that it could refer to a new race of humans who will be created along with the new earth (Isaiah 65:17), but who will fall into sin and mortality like Adam and Eve did. But even as mortals, they could live for about 900 years, like Adam and generations after him lived that long (Genesis 5:5-27), so that if one of them dies at 100, it will be like he died in his youth (Isaiah 65:20b).

If Isaiah 65:20 does refer to the new earth, then it can't refer to any humans born on our present earth. For by the time that the new earth is created (Revelation 21:1), all humans born on our present earth who got saved and remained obedient will have been resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal physical bodies (Revelation 21:4; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Romans 8:23-25). And all who didn't get saved or who remained disobedient will have been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 21:8, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Isaiah 66:22,24, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

The physically resurrected, immortal humans could minister to the new race of fallen, mortal humans (of Isaiah 65:20) in the same way that angels now minister to us (Hebrews 1:14). For resurrected, immortal humans will be equal to the angels (Luke 20:36).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

“And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end come.” Matthew 24:14. Jesus spoke these words, but WERE they MEANT for the Church? NO! These words were spoken in THE MIDDLE of a teaching where Jesus described THE TRIBULATION and ISRAEL’S place in it.

Note that Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jews or Gentiles), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3-4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those (not in hiding) who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

Revelation 7:3-8 shows 144,000 sealed SERVANTS of God.

The 144,000 will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they are from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

In the seven letters to the Churches in Revelation, Jesus says SEVEN TIMES “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches.” When we get to the tribulation passage of Revelation 13:9, Jesus says “If any man have an ear, let him hear.” He LEFT OUT the words “what the Spirit says unto the Churches”--and did so BECAUSE there are NO CHURCHES on earth in the tribulation.

Actually, no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16, but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1 to 15. The reason why the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters refer to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

The church in the general sense will definitely be in the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For believers will definitely be in it (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, just as the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation chapters 19 to 22 include references to the church without using the specific word "church", so it should be able to admit that Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church".

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

Jesus’ ministry in His first coming opened a time of God’s GRACE through the Church.

Are you thinking of the idea of the present age being an age of grace, which will end when the tribulation starts?

If so, regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

Revelation 4:1-11 opens with “AFTER THIS I looked, and behold a door was opened in heaven . . .

In Revelation 4:1, "after this" simply means after John had been instructed in Revelation chapters 2-3 what to write to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

Also, Revelation 4:1 refers only to John the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the 1st century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers only to Paul the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the 1st century AD. Neither verse refers to the future rapture of the church only as high as the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

Isaiah 26:19 shows the resurrection from the dead. Isaiah 26:20 shows the TRANSLATION (Rapture) of those who are alive.

Isaiah 26:19 is referring to the resurrection of the church, which won't happen until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-57, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

But Isaiah 26:20 starts a new idea, a new paragraph, like is indicated in some copies of the KJV. And Isaiah 26:20 also takes a step back chronologically from Isaiah 26:19, like how, for example, Matthew 14:3 takes a step back chronologically from Matthew 14:2. For Isaiah 26:20 is addressing those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These believers will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And they won't be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). So Isaiah 26:20 refers to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). Note that there would be absolutely no reason for resurrected, immortal people in heaven to hide (Isaiah 26:20b) from events happening down on the earth.

Also, note that nothing forbids believers from preparing their Isaiah 26:20 chambers now, and hiding in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the 7 vials, but also during the just-preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the church (not in hiding) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way for believers to prepare these chambers would be for them to bury old shipping containers. Shipping and trucking companies could have such shipping containers stacked up in their back lots ready to sell cheap to anyone who will take them off their hands.

Once you have one or more shipping containers at your wilderness site, you can rent a bulldozer for a few days and dig big trenches in which to bury them. The trenches need to be deep enough so that you can pile 6 feet of dirt on top of the containers. For that much dirt is required to stop radiation from any nuclear fallout from reaching the containers. Also, 6 feet of dirt will serve as great insulation, so that no matter how hot or cold it gets on the surface, the shipping containers will always remain at a pleasant 68 degrees Fahrenheit (20 degrees Celsius) throughout the year.

Once you have put the shipping containers in their trenches, you can cut a manhole in the center of the top of each container, and then cut two smaller, 6-inch ventilation holes in the top of each end of each container. Then you can attach to each manhole a 7-foot-long vertical PVC pipe with the same diameter as the manhole, and attach to each ventilation hole a 7-foot-long vertical PVC pipe with the same diameter as the ventilation hole. Then you can use the bulldozer to carefully bury the containers, without breaking off the vertical pipes.

Then you can place a 14-foot ladder down the manhole pipe of each container. And you can go down into each container and place a small, battery-powered fan inside one of its ventilation holes, to be turned on whenever fresh air is needed in the container. Your containers will then be all set to start stocking with canned food, water, bedding, batteries, and all other needed supplies whenever you want to do that. You will then need to secure the top of each manhole-pipe with some sort of thick PVC, perhaps screw-on, cover which can be locked from both the outside when you are away from the container, and from the inside when you are in the container. To keep any radioactive dust or ash from entering very far into the ventilation pipes, you can place a cylindrical air filter near the top of each pipe. And to keep rain, insects, and small animals from entering the pipes and affecting the filters, you can place a nylon screen and side-vented plastic cap over the top of each pipe. Another thing to worry about is floodwater pouring into the pipes. So your wilderness site shouldn't be in a floodplain, but on high-enough ground where it won't be flooded.

Because one of the reasons to go underground is to be hidden out of sight of hostile people during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will want to restore the surface of the ground above the buried containers so that, as much as possible, it appears like it did before you began digging. The tops of the manhole and ventilation pipes of each container will need to be camouflaged with brush, so that any hostile people passing by won't notice them. Also, in case some hostile people with dogs happen to pass by while you are hiding inside a container, you will need to place some long-dead (non-smelling) carcass of a small animal near enough to each ventilation pipe so that if the dogs pick up your scent emanating from a ventilation pipe, the hostile people with the dogs will think that their dogs are just interested in the carcass of the animal, and won't start rummaging through the brush and discover the ventilation pipe.

Besides camouflaging your underground hideout so that no hostile people will even notice it during the Antichrist's worldwide reign (in the tribulation's 2nd half), before the tribulation even begins and you are still thinking about where in the wilderness to prepare your hideout, you will need to be very circumspect about whom you tell about your plans. You will want to tell only those people who are completely committed to joining you in hiding in your containers during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. For if you get any other people involved in knowing, before the Antichrist's worldwide reign, where your hideout is located, then during the Antichrist's worldwide reign those same people could be captured by the Antichrist's police or soldiers, and under torture or interrogation drugs they could tell them the location of your hideout. Or those same people, even if they are not captured, could start to get very hungry during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, and so could decide to go out to your hideout and demand to be fed with your supplies, even though you didn't store up enough for them, because before the tribulation they had said that they definitely weren't going to join you in your hideout.

Another thing to remember is that even before the Antichrist's worldwide reign, even when communicating with those who are completely committed to joining you in your hideout during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you must never refer to the location of your hideout over the internet or over a cell phone, smartphone, or landline phone, or even in your car or home, or in any (e.g.) workplace, supermarket, or restaurant equipped with surveillance cameras and microphones, as all of these could currently be tapped and recorded by intelligence or law enforcement agencies, and their surveillance records could later be searched by the Antichrist's police or soldiers to determine the location of your hideout. For the same reason, you mustn't have any device with a GPS chip (such as a cell phone, smartphone, tablet computer, laptop computer, OnStar, LoJack, Garmin, TomTom, etc.) with you when you are out at your hideout, as the GPS chip could be secretly pinged remotely in order to determine your hideout's location. You will also need to have your car, shoes, clothing, and all supplies intended for your hideout electronically swept for any GPS chips covertly placed in them by intelligence or law enforcement agencies.

Currently, as during the future tribulation, if you are sure that your car doesn't have a GPS tracker, whenever you want to keep your cell phone or smartphone with you, but at the same time want to avoid having your movements tracked through it, wrap it in a small towel like a wash cloth, or place it in a small box like a cigar box, and then wrap the towel or box completely with aluminum foil, so that no phone signals can reach the phone. To make sure that there are no tiny gaps or tears in the foil through which signals can enter, once the phone is in the foil-wrapped towel or box, call it from another phone and see if it rings. If it does, hang up, wrap the towel or box with a 2nd layer of foil and call again. If the phone doesn't ring, that means that no signals can reach it, and so your movements can't be tracked through it.

And when you make your final trip out to your hideout, when you will begin hiding there during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will need to abandon your car miles away from your hideout and walk the rest of the way, as otherwise your car could catch the attention of any passing hostile people or patrolling drone aircraft. And even if you abandon your car miles away from you hideout, you will still want to camouflage it with brush to avoid it being seen and starting a general search of the area. Or, if there is not enough brush with which to camouflage it, you can let the air out of one of its tires which is visible from the road, so that people passing on the road will think that your car was left there because it got a flat tire.

Some people think that everyone in the cities will try to go out into the wilderness during the tribulation. But that may not be the case, for almost all people in the cities don't have hunting/fishing and other wilderness survival skills, and won't know of any well-stocked hideouts in the wilderness, and so they won't think that there is any food out there, or that they will be able to construct any decent shelter out there. They will think of the wilderness as being only barren ground and brush, rocks, trees, and mountains, and so they will stay in the cities where they have shelter and some chance of finding food. And if the cities come under martial law, they could become the safest places to be, as the military could bring order to them and supply them with emergency food and water.

But martial law will cut both ways in that once the Antichrist takes over everything (Revelation 13:7-18), the cities could become, in effect, huge military prisons, where people will have to receive the Antichrist's mark on their right hand or forehead if they want to buy any food (Revelation 13:16-17). And everyone will have to worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-10, Revelation 12:9) and a speaking image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) if they don't want to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4). Believers trapped in the cities must be willing to be beheaded, for if they go ahead and take the mark and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image, they will ultimately lose their salvation and suffer eternally in fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:9-14).

Believers shouldn't assume that they will necessarily be able to stand up well under the hunger (and possibly torture) and beheading which will be imposed on believers trapped in the cities during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. Many believers could eventually give in and take the mark when their hunger and the hunger of their crying little ones reaches a certain point (Isaiah 8:21-22). And they could give in and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image when they are confronted with they and their little ones being tortured and beheaded if they don't do those things. It will be much, much better for believers to avoid these horrors by fleeing into prepared hiding places in the wilderness right before the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign of terror begins (Revelation 12:6, Matthew 24:15-16).

"A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself..." (Proverbs 22:3, Proverbs 27:12, Proverbs 28:28, Proverbs 28:12b).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

The Church is a MYSTERY which was NOT clearly revealed in the Old Testament.

Note that the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 is "made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets" (Romans 16:26).

Isaiah 49:6 and Isaiah 42:6 foretold that Jesus' gospel of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), would save both Jewish and Gentile believers (Acts 26:22-23, Luke 24:46-47). The New Covenant includes Gentile believers by grafting them into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16).

Isaiah 49:6b started to be fulfilled at Jesus' 1st coming (Luke 2:32, Acts 26:23) and his sending forth of his apostles to the Gentiles (Acts 13:47, Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 26:17-18, Acts 22:21).

Also, Paul quotes 4 Old Testament verses in Romans 15:9-12 that foretold the salvation of the Gentiles (2 Samuel 22:50/Psalms 18:49, Deuteronomy 32:43, Psalms 117:1, Isaiah 11:10).

And note that God chose Peter the apostle to be the 1st one to take the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles (Acts 15:7, Acts 10:34-48), to make Gentile believers partakers of the Jews' spiritual things (Romans 15:27, John 4:22b), just as Paul sometimes preached the gospel to Jews (e.g. Acts 13:16-41).

This mystery (Ephesians 3:4) is also explained in Ephesians 3:6, which means that believing Gentiles become fellowheirs with believing Israelites, and of the same body as Israel, and partakers of God's promise in Christ made to Israel.

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

After the groom receives his bride (together with her bridesmaids), the enlarged group RETURNS to the HOUSE of the GROOM’S FATHER.

Note that the scriptures themselves don't ever say or require that Jesus is going to take the church to the Father's house for the marriage. And we must not run after Jewish traditions which are not taught by the scriptures (Mark 7:13, Colossians 2:8). Just as Isaac didn't take Rebekah into his father's house, but into his mother's house (Genesis 24:67), and just as Jacob didn't take Leah or Rachel into his father's house, but married them in a faraway land (Genesis 29:23-28), so nothing requires that Jesus has to marry the church in the Father's house, instead of in the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 19:7).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

In James 4:4, the Church is warned about the lusts of the flesh and love of the world which makes us “adulterers and adulteresses”--a people who turn against their wedding vows (by refusing to keep themselves separate from such things).

Note that the book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

He uses the illustration of the unfaithful servant who was caught off-guard by his master's unannounced return (Matthew 24:45-51).

Regarding Matthew 24:45-51, in verses 48-51 the evil servant did evil and was surprised by the Lord's return, because when the Lord didn't return sometime before or during the tribulation, the servant thought that the Lord was indefinitely "delaying" his return (Matthew 24:48). But in fact, the Lord's return won't be delayed at all, but will occur "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). Also, even when believers know this truth, they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

He tells them of the parable of the talents, and a servant who was caught unprepared for his master's return (Matthew 25:14-30).

Regarding Matthew 25:14-30, the talents parable, it is about the judgment of the individuals in the church (of all times) by their individual works, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 25:19-30, Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). So Matthew 25:21,23 refers to obedient individuals in the church entering the joy of ruling on the earth with the Lord Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), which won't begin until after the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Matthew 25:30 refers to disobedient believers losing their salvation at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:48-51, Luke 12:45-46) and entering "the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 1:13), "to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever" (2 Peter 2:17), which could be a fate of them having to drift through the darkness of outer space.

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

Post-Trib has "replacement theology"

Note that even though the church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10), the church doesn't "replace" Israel, because Gentiles in the church are grafted in to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16), which includes the Jews in the church (Romans 11:1).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.

Note that Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1). And others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

The exhortation to look for “the glorious appearing” of Christ to His own (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must intervene first.

Actually, it doesn't.

For Jesus' glorious appearing in Titus 2:13 is his 2nd coming, when he will appear in glory (Matthew 24:30).

Also, while we are to be "looking for" Jesus' appearing (Titus 2:13), note that the original Greek word (prosdechomai: G4327) translated as "looking for" doesn't mean to stare with our eyes with the hope of seeing someone come at any moment. Instead, it means "to await (with confidence or patience)" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), like in Luke 12:36, Luke 2:25, and Mark 15:43. For Jesus can't come at any moment. He can't come until at least 2 events happen first (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4). For his coming and gathering together of the church must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8). That is why his coming to gather together the church won't be until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27), and why we will have to go through the tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

The exhortation to purify ourselves in view of the Lord’s return has most significance if His coming is imminent (1 John 3:2-3).

Note that nothing requires that.

For 1 John 3:2-3 refers to when Jesus will be literally seen at his 2nd coming.

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

If the expression “except there come a falling away first” (KJV) is translated literally, “except the “departure” come first,” it would plainly show the necessity of the Rapture taking place before the beginning of the Tribulation.

The "falling away" (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some in the church will depart from the faith in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), when the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and begins a worldwide persecution against the church (Matthew 24:9-13) during his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Those in the church who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it is derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the 1st century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from the faith. Also, at the rapture, the church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

Israel, and the Jewish Pharisees, at the time of Jesus did NOT recognize their promised Messiah when Jesus presented Himself to them. Why? They didn’t differentiate between their own prophecies which show the TWO COMINGS OF JESUS.

There was a contrast between the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's coming, with some of them showing him coming to be meekly crucified for our sins (Isaiah 53, Psalms 22), and others showing him physically descending from heaven to wage war and to physically reign on the earth (Zechariah 14, Micah 4:1-4). But note that nothing in the Old or New Testament requires a future (to us), pre-tribulation coming of Christ versus only a post-tribulation coming of Christ. For all the as-yet-unfulfilled Old and New Testament prophecies regarding Christ's coming will be fulfilled at or sometime after his post-tribulation coming.

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

In the 70th week (during the “tribulation”) as prophesied in Zechariah 13:8-9--TWO-THIRDS of Israel will NOT SURVIVE . . .

Regarding Zechariah 13:8-9, note that it could refer to the "sheep" (i.e. the early Christians in Judaea) in Zechariah 13:7 (Matthew 26:31), two-thirds of which could have ended up dying in the land during the great Jewish revolts against Rome in 66-70 AD.

Zechariah 13:8-9 could also refer to both the Christians and unsaved elect Jews who will be trapped in Judaea (southern Israel) during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the just-subsequent verses (Zechariah 14:1-21) refer to a final pillaging of Jerusalem which will occur right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the establishment of the physical, millennial aspect of his kingdom.

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

Jeremiah 30:7 --which speaks of the tribulation as “Jacob’s trouble.”

The time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including both Jews and Gentiles (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation. For believers will be in the tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

Israel is NOT cut-off from the COVENANTS that God gave them. But blindness (in part) will be their destiny UNTIL the Church is complete. Acts 15:14-16. Romans 11:1 and Romans 11:25-27.

Regarding Romans 11:25-27, in verse 25 the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul the apostle (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It is the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some (in the sense of not all) of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but who will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus himself (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will be ashamed, and will all weep and become saved when they see Jesus and realize that he truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

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Also, the fullness of the Gentiles coming in during the tribulation doesn't mean that no Gentiles will be added to the church during the subsequent millennium, because they will be (Isaiah 66:19-20). For "fullness" doesn't have to mean "no more after that". For example, even after a cup has been filled with wine, more wine can be added to it, so that the "cup runneth over" (Psalms 23:5b). Also, it doesn't matter that the new believers during the millennium will be added to the church/bride (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6, Ephesians 5:30-32) after the marriage occurred at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7). For as many husbands have discovered, a bride can increase in size sometime after her wedding.

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

In 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, we see that the tribulation (the day of the Lord) will come like a thief in the night, when people are saying, “Peace and safety,” . . .

1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the 2 witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials of God's judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

But for the Church, the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against us . . .

Note that Matthew 16:18 isn't contradicting that evil forces can prevail against the church physically. For just as Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome believers in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10), so evil forces will physically overcome the church during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will prevail physically against believers (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Matthew 16:18 meant that the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against the "rock" in Matthew 16:18, which is Jesus himself (Matthew 16:16b,18b), the rock/stone on whom the church/New Covenant Israel is built (Ephesians 2:20, Matthew 16:18b; 1 Peter 2:6), the rock/stone who was rejected and crucified (Romans 9:33, Acts 4:11; 1 Peter 2:4,8), the same rock/Christ who followed Old Covenant Israel/the church in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:4-5, cf. Acts 7:38), and the same rock/Christ revered by New Covenant Israel/the church (1 Peter 2:4-10).

That is, Matthew 16:18 was prophesying of when the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against Jesus (Psalms 107:16), when, after his resurrection, he went down and liberated the souls of the dead Old Testament saints from Hades (1 Peter 4:6; 1 Peter 3:18c-19, Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

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All obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show that there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

The Church OVERCOMES by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Note that any saved person can ultimately have his name blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), he can ultimately lose his salvation and be cast into the 2nd death of the lake of fire (Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:14-15), if he doesn't overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26, Hebrews 6:11-12, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Matthew 24:9-13).

Revelation 3:5, 1 John 5:4-5, 1 John 2:13-14 and 1 John 4:4 don't contradict this, for these verses don't give any assurance that every saved person will overcome to the end. All that the 1 John verses give assurance of is that believers can presently be overcomers. And all that Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, and Revelation 2:26 give assurance of is that those believers who do overcome to the end won't have their names blotted out of the book of life, and won't be cast into the lake of fire.

An example of saved people "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528) (Revelation 3:5) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) to the end is found in Revelation 15:2, which refers to saved people who will be willing to be killed by the Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their lives during the future worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Christians will be able to spiritually overcome the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11). But it is also possible for Christians to fail to overcome, and so in the end to lose their salvation (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11), if they are fearful (Revelation 21:7-8) of being tortured or killed (Matthew 10:28, Revelation 2:10), to the point where they will wrongly employ their free will to renounce Jesus Christ and the gospel, to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6), in order to keep from getting tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13).

Psalm3704 said in post 579:

In Daniel 7:21 and Daniel 7:25, the little horn (antichrist) made war with the saints and PREVAILED AGAINST them . . .

Daniel 7:21,25, like Daniel 12:7b, refers to the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast (Revelation 13:4-18), which reign will occur during the 2nd half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Daniel 12:7b means that at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will come to a church which has been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed to make war against the church and to overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the church that the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus' 2nd coming will immediately occur, at which time he will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And at his 2nd coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For he/God won't share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).
 
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Straightshot

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What did you do B2 copy somebody's book just above?

Someone said:

"No such thing as Soul-Sleep!"

What does the Bible tell of those like Abraham and Stephen?

And what about this:

Daniel 12:1-2

1 Corinthians
15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When a man dies his spirit is returned to his Maker [Ecclesiastes 12:7]

The dead know nothing [Ecclesiastes 9:5]

No man has gone to heaven except the One who has come down from heaven [John 3:13]

In the eternal realm there is no time passing .... so when a saved man dies he will not be aware, and his spirit is returned to the Lord for the keeping until this [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18] .... this event is still pending for all who are saved

If not saved, this [Revelation 20:11-15]

Either way the spirit of a dead man knows nothing and is not aware of time passing

And he will awake to one, or the other .... eternal life, or extinction

And if you are one who denies this [Revelation 3:10] .... just what are you doing?

You are directly refuting the Lord's promise .... ask yourself why

He said to be ready .... are you?
 
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Riberra

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Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Only you would be crazy enough to think something would cry out in a loud voice praying to God when it's asleep. I have to admit Riberra, talking to you sometimes is like talking to an 8 year old, one can never tell the difference.

No such thing as soul sleep! And you're not proving this either with Revelation 6:9-11, just looking more foolish with each posts to be more accurate.
I see that the master of insults is at work again.Let see what you have missed because of your inability to read the Scriptures.
Revelation 6:9-11
is the proof that the SOULS of the believers goes to Heaven and on arrival they have full capacity of reasonning until that God place them in a state of rest....as in sleep.

They were not crying anymore after that God said to them that they should REST.... until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Revelation 6:11
 
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Riberra

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Post #579
The Rapture pertains to God’s mercy and grace. The Second Coming pertains to God’s wrath.

Another text that you have copied from an internet source: Tst -tst -tst !
250 REASONS FOR PRE-TRIB RAPTURE
http://www.jesusisthecomingking.com/2011/03/250-reasons-for-pre-trib-rapture.html

127. The Rapture pertains to God’s mercy and grace. The Second Coming pertains to God’s wrath.

128. At the Rapture, Jesus is the Morning Star-- 2 Peter 1:19, Revelation 2:28 and Revelation 22:16 --(which PRECEDES the sunrise of the New Day). At the Second Coming, Jesus is the Sun of Righteousness-- Malachi 4:1-2 --(which shines IN the New Day).

129. The Rapture is the HOPE of Jesus’ people, the Church, at THE END of the New Testament-- 2 Peter 1:19 and Revelation 22:16. The Second Coming is the HOPE of Jesus’ people, Israel, at THE END of the Old Testament-- Malachi 4:1-2.
 
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Psalm3704

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Note that none of those verses promises a pre-tribulation rapture.

ONLY the Pre-Trib Rapture view allows for a TRULY LITERAL INTERPRETATION of the Old and New Testament passages regarding the tribulation. The SYMBOLS (which are used) are DEFINED throughout the Bible and are APPLIED in a LITERAL WAY.

ONLY the Pre-Tribulation view clearly DISTINGUISHES between Israel and the Church (and HOW God deals with each)--making it NECESSARY for an interval of time between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

In the seven letters to the Churches in Revelation, Jesus says SEVEN TIMES “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches.” When we get to the tribulation passage of Revelation 13:9, Jesus says “If any man have an ear, let him hear.” He LEFT OUT the words “what the Spirit says unto the Churches”--and did so BECAUSE there are NO CHURCHES on earth in the tribulation.

In the tribulation passage of Revelation 13:6, the antichrist is given a mouth to blaspheme God, His name, His tabernacle and THEM THAT DWELL IN HEAVEN. Who are those who DWELL in heaven? The Raptured Church.

The Holy Ones (“saints” in the Church) are ALREADY with Jesus in heaven and will return to earth with Him. Zechariah 14:5. Revelation 19:14. Jude 1:14-15.

The Holy Ones who return with Jesus are NOT angels. The Holy Ones are arrayed in FINE WHITE LINEN which is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE SAINTS (which is the Church). Revelation 19:8. Revelation 3:5. Revelation 3:18.

Jesus opened His ministry in his first coming in Luke 4:18-19, quoting from the prophet Isaiah. He stopped reading AFTER saying THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD in the MIDDLE of a sentence, and SHUT the book. Jesus’ ministry in His first coming opened a time of God’s GRACE through the Church.

In Isaiah 61:1-2, the prophecy of Isaiah FINISHES where Jesus LEFT OFF. After “the acceptable year of the Lord” (GRACE--THE AGE of the Church) is the DAY OF VENGEANCE OF OUR GOD. AFTER the Church age the tribulation will come--“the day of vengeance of our God.” We understand HOW the Church will be Raptured, then THAT DAY will come--and it’s Pre-Tribulation.

Revelation 4:1-11 opens with “AFTER THIS I looked, and behold a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET talking with me (the trumpet voice of Jesus--seeRevelation 1:10); which said, Come up hither, and I will show you things which must come HEREAFTER.” “After this” and “hereafter” are the same Greek word “meta tauta” which means AFTER THESE THINGS. After WHAT things? AFTER the THINGS of the SEVEN CHURCHES (the complete “Church Age”) in Revelation 2 and 3. Jesus will call “Come up hither” with His TRUMPET VOICE--the trump of God--and the Church, like John, will go through an OPEN DOOR in heaven in a PRE-TRIB Rapture! The structure is HIGHLY EVIDENT! Plus, the Holy Spirit REPEATED “hereafter” TWO TIMES to make this ABUNDANTLY CLEAR! Pre-Trib!

A door is SHUT BEHIND some believers in Isaiah 26:19-20. Isaiah 26:19 shows the resurrection from the dead. Isaiah 26:20 shows the TRANSLATION (Rapture) of those who are alive. “Come, My people, enter you into your chambers (mansions), and SHUT your DOOR about you; HIDE yourself as it were for A LITTLE MOMENT (7 years) until THE INDIGNATION be overpast.” The Church will enter heaven for 7 years, a little moment, until the INDIGNATION (God’s wrath upon the rebellious world) is done. The Rapture of the Church is Pre-Trib. How can people miss this?

All believers in the Church must APPEAR before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) This event is NEVER mentioned in the events of the Second Coming, when Jesus sets His feet on the earth.

The 24 Elders in Revelation 4 and 5 are REPRESENTATIVE of a Raptured and glorified Church.

The 24 Elders CANNOT be angels. Angels DON’T WEAR crowns. Angels DON’T sit with God to rule and reign. We MUST define the 24 ELDERS by their SPECIFIC descriptions.

Elders--a term used for Church leadership.

Elders, the Greek “presbuteros.” Church terminology--the “Presbytery.”

The number 24. In 1 Chronicles 24:1-31, King David divided the Priesthood into 24 COURSES because they’d grown so large. When 24 LEADERS of the COURSES met BEFORE David’s throne, the WHOLE PRIESTHOOD was REPRESENTED. The 24 ELDERS represent the ENTIRE CHURCH before God’s throne. This is a picture of the Church as PRIESTS.

The number 24 (part 2). The Church is composed of BOTH Jews and Gentiles. 12 tribes of Israel. 12 apostles of the Church. A total of 24.

The Elders SIT. The work of the Church on earth in “the age of God’s Grace” is done.

The Elders sit on THRONES--the Church is seated on THRONES as KINGS.

The Elders wear “SPECIFIC” WHITE RAIMENT. The Church is promised white garments. Revelation 3:4-5. Revelation 3:18. That our garments (and ourselves) are to be washed and spotless are seen inEphesians 5:26-27, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:14. Jude 1:23 and Revelation 1:5.

The Elders wear CROWNS, which are STEPHANOS, given for OVERCOMING and GAINING A VICTORY (for finishing the race). The same kind of CROWNS are given to the Church. 1 Corinthians 9:25-27.1 Thessalonians 2:19-20. 2 Timothy 4:8. James 1:12. 1 Peter 5:4. Revelation 2:10 b. Revelation 3:11.

The Elders wear crowns OF GOLD. Gold shows KINGSHIP. This shows the Church as KINGS.

In Revelation 5:1-14, the Elders sing a NEW SONG of THEIR REDEMPTION (as seen in the King James Version--which is translated from a MORE RELIABLE old manuscript). The Elders sing of being SAVED by the blood of Jesus.

The Elders are saved “out of” (“called-out of”) every kindred, tongue, people and nation on earth. The Church is predominantly Gentile, “called-out of” the world.

In Ezekiel and Daniel we find SIMILAR DESCRIPTIONS of heaven as shown in the Revelation. EXCEPT FOR ONE THING. The Old Testament prophets did NOT see 24 Elders! Why? The Church is a MYSTERY which was NOT clearly revealed in the Old Testament.

The Great Multitude of Revelation 7:9-10 are NOT the Church. WHY? Their descriptions are DIFFERENT.

The Great Multitude STANDS before God’s throne. The 24 ELDERS of the Church SIT on thrones.

The Great Multitude wear white robes (the Greek “stole”). The 24 ELDERS wear white raiment (the Greek “himation”). There IS a DIFFERENCE!

The Great Multitude hold PALM BRANCHES in their hands (like Israel did when they celebrated Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey). The 24 ELDERS have “stephonos” CROWNS (given for “winning a race” and “obtaining a victory”) upon their heads.

The Great Multitude CRY WITH A LOUD VOICE. The 24 ELDERS of the Church SING A NEW SONG.

The Great Multitude come OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION (the LAST half of Daniel’s 70th week). The 24 ELDERS come out of the AGE OF THE CHURCH.

The Great Multitude SERVE GOD day and night in His TEMPLE. The 24 ELDERS of the Church RULE and REIGN with Jesus.

God will spread HIS TABERNACLE over the Great Multitude--another Israeli and Old Testament reference.

God wipes the tears out of the eyes of the Great Multitude. WHY? To console them after they have died a martyr’s death in the tribulation. The Church will rejoice with joy unspeakable at the time of the Pre-Trib rapture. 1 Thessalonians 2:19.

The Rapture relates to the Church. The Second Coming relates to Israel.

The Rapture occurs for Jesus’ heavenly people, the Church (Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 12:22-24). The Second Coming is for God’s earthly people, Israel.

At the Rapture, Jesus comes FOR His people, the Church (John 14:3, 2 Thessalonians 2:1) At the Second Coming, Jesus comes WITH His people, the Church. Jude 1:14-15. Revelation 19:14. Zechariah 14:5.

The Rapture OPENS the door for the “man of sin” to rise to power. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8. The Second Coming DOOMS the “man of sin.” Revelation 19:20.

The Rapture is IMMINENT; it can occur at ANY moment. The Second Coming MUST be PRECEDED by very many DAYS and SIGNS and EVENTS.

No one knows the EXACT DAY of the Rapture (it is UNKNOWN)-- Matthew 24:38-39, Matthew 25:13,Luke 17:26-30, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, Hebrews 10:24-25. We are exhorted to be WAITING and WATCHING. BUT anyone who enters the “tribulation” will be able to COUNT SPECIFIC NUMBERS of DAYS, and KNOW the DAY when Jesus will come to earth in His Second Coming. Daniel 9:27 (seven years, 84 months, 3520 days). Revelation 12:6 and Revelation 12:14. Revelation 13:5 (three and a half years, 42 months, 1260 days). There’s also added days in Daniel 12:11-12 (1290 and 1335 days), which probably relates to THE TIMING of a CELEBRATION of the Feast of Tabernacles, plus the JUDGMENT of the Sheep and Goat nations (this might not be fully understood until THE TIME arrives, as Daniel 12:9 indicates).

After the Rapture, the Church will proceed to the Judgment Seat (the Bema) of Christ to receive REWARDS. 2 Corinthians 5:10. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27. 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20. 2 Timothy 4:8. 1 Peter 5:4.Revelation 2:10 b. Revelation 3:11. At the Second Coming there will be a Judgment of the Sheep and Goats.Matthew 24:31-46.

The Rapture pertains to God’s mercy and grace. The Second Coming pertains to God’s wrath.

At the Rapture, Jesus is the Morning Star-- 2 Peter 1:19, Revelation 2:28 and Revelation 22:16 --(which PRECEDES the sunrise of the New Day). At the Second Coming, Jesus is the Sun of Righteousness--Malachi 4:1-2 --(which shines IN the New Day).

The Rapture is the HOPE of Jesus’ people, the Church, at THE END of the New Testament-- 2 Peter 1:19 and Revelation 22:16. The Second Coming is the HOPE of Jesus’ people, Israel, at THE END of the Old Testament-- Malachi 4:1-2.

At the Rapture, the Church MEETS Jesus in the air in the clouds. At the Second Coming, Jesus sets His feet on the earth at the Mount of Olives.

At the time of the Rapture, the Mount of Olives will REMAIN UNCHANGED. At the Second Coming, the Mount of Olives IS DIVIDED, forming a valley east of Jerusalem.

At the time of the Rapture, Church saints are TRANSLATED (bodies instantly changed to immortal without passing through a route called death). NO saints are translated at the Second Coming when Jesus places His feet back on earth.

At the time of the Rapture, the world is NOT JUDGED for sin--but instead SINKS DEEPER into sin. At the Second Coming, the world IS JUDGED at the return of Jesus when He deals with the Armageddon scene.

The Rapture of the Church is a deliverance FROM the DAY OF WRATH. The Second Coming of Jesus is a deliverance FOR those who suffered under severe tribulation.

The Rapture is always IMMINENT (meaning NO prophecy must be fulfilled BEFORE it can occur). There are VERY SPECIFIC SIGNS AND PROPHECIES (which MUST HAPPEN) before the Second Coming!

The Rapture is ONLY for the SAVED. The tribulation and the Second Coming deals with the ENTIRE WORLD.

In the Rapture, Jesus calls His Church UP TO HEAVEN--He comes FOR His Church. In the Second Coming, Jesus returns to earth WITH His Church. Revelation 19:7-8. Revelation 19:14. Jude 1:14-15.

The gathering of “saints” AFTER the tribulation is done by ANGELS. The gathering of the Church to Jesus in the Pre-Trib Rapture is done by THE LORD HIMSELF.

BOTH the righteous and the wicked CANNOT be taken FIRST. In the Rapture, the RIGHTEOUS are TAKEN--the WICKED and UNREADY are LEFT BEHIND. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11. In the “tribulation” and at the Second Coming, the WICKED are TAKEN/DESTROYED in the JUDGMENT, and the RIGHTEOUS are LEFT BEHIND to enter the Millennial Kingdom. Matthew 13:30 and Matthew 13:49-50.

In the Rapture, Jesus RECEIVES us to Himself. It will NOT be US “receiving” Him when He returns in the Second Coming. John 14:2-3. If the Rapture occurred in Revelation 19, we’d go up TO MEET (or RECEIVE) Him and IMMEDIATELY RETURN to earth with Him.

If we rose to meet Him and immediately returned to earth with Him in Revelation 19, WHERE is the Judgment Seat of Christ (the Bema) and the wedding ceremony for the Bride? The NEXT THING that happens AFTER the Second Coming is the Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats.

The Judgment of Gentile nations follows the Second Coming (Matthew 25:31-46). This scripture shows that BOTH the SAVED and the LOST are in NATURAL bodies (which would be IMPOSSIBLE if there were a translation, or Rapture, at the Second Coming).

IF the TRANSLATION (Rapture) took place at the same time as the Second Coming, there would be NO NEED to separate the sheep from the goats. The act of TRANSLATION would provide that separation.

IF believers were TRANSLATED (Raptured) at the Second Coming, and unbelievers were DESTROYED by the final tribulation judgment, there would be NO ONE LEFT IN THEIR FLESH TO POPULATE THE WORLD in the Millennium.

Surviving tribulation saints are NOT translated (into immortal bodies) at the Second Coming of Christ, but carry on with ordinary activities, like farming, construction, and giving birth. Isaiah 65:20-25.

The Church INDEED preaches the GOSPEL of Christ’s FINISHED WORK in His death and resurrection (inviting people to ACCEPT Jesus into their hearts and lives--to become members of the LIVING and TRUE Church). However, the LAST age of the Church is pictured as one of weakness and complacency--falling away from true doctrine. The spirit of Laodecia. Revelation 3:14-22. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. (This disproves what the “Kingdom Now” and “Dominion” groups teach.)

Scripture declares that Elijah will come before the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Malachi 4:5-6. Elijah is ONE of the TWO special prophets who will minister to Israel in the near future.

Elijah will be joined by a SECOND special prophet, who will minister in Israel with the same miracles that Moses performed--under God’s guidance and power. These are the TWO WITNESSES seen in Zechariah 4:1-14 and in Revelation 11:3-13. They will declare God’s testimony during the dark days of the tribulation, and antichrist will be furious with them.

“And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end come.” Matthew 24:14. Jesus spoke these words, but WERE they MEANT for the Church? NO! These words were spoken in THE MIDDLE of a teaching where Jesus described THE TRIBULATION and ISRAEL’S place in it.

Revelation 7:3-8 shows 144,000 sealed SERVANTS of God. These young men will preach the Gospel during the tribulation. They number 12,000 from specific TRIBES OF ISRAEL--and are ministers who will PROCLAIM THE GOSPEL during the awful time when judgments fall from God’s throne. Nothing can harm these servants, because God’s protection is upon them (they are sealed). The RESULT of their PREACHING is A GREAT MULTITUDE seen in Revelation 7:9-12 and Revelation 15:2-4, a group of martyred souls who sing THE SONG OF MOSES. An Israeli TESTIMONY is in sight here--NOT a Church testimony.

Further EVIDENCE of the Gospel reaching EVERY NATION in the world is shown in Revelation 14:6. AN ANGEL flies through the midst of heaven (the sky) to PREACH to all those who dwell on the earth. Again, this is NOT the Church.

The Everlasting Gospel and the Gospel of the Kingdom WILL be preached in the tribulation--which is God bringing HIS MERCY in the MIDST OF JUDGMENT (but the Church is NOT the ministers). Furthermore, the MESSAGE of the Gospel of the Kingdom is that Jesus will soon RETURN to earth (after the tribulation) to set up His Kingdom in Jerusalem for the Millennium--so the SERVANTS will say, “Prepare to meet your King.” Jesus’ return to THE EARTH will also answer the petition, “Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.”

ONLY the Pre-Trib Rapture view allows for a TRULY LITERAL INTERPRETATION of the Old and New Testament passages regarding the tribulation. The SYMBOLS (which are used) are DEFINED throughout the Bible and are APPLIED in a LITERAL WAY.

ONLY the Pre-Tribulation view clearly DISTINGUISHES between Israel and the Church (and HOW God deals with each)--making it NECESSARY for an interval of time between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

In the seven letters to the Churches in Revelation, Jesus says SEVEN TIMES “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches.” When we get to the tribulation passage of Revelation 13:9, Jesus says “If any man have an ear, let him hear.” He LEFT OUT the words “what the Spirit says unto the Churches”--and did so BECAUSE there are NO CHURCHES on earth in the tribulation.

In the tribulation passage of Revelation 13:6, the antichrist is given a mouth to blaspheme God, His name, His tabernacle and THEM THAT DWELL IN HEAVEN. Who are those who DWELL in heaven? The Raptured Church.

The Holy Ones (“saints” in the Church) are ALREADY with Jesus in heaven and will return to earth with Him. Zechariah 14:5. Revelation 19:14. Jude 1:14-15.

The Holy Ones who return with Jesus are NOT angels. The Holy Ones are arrayed in FINE WHITE LINEN which is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE SAINTS (which is the Church). Revelation 19:8. Revelation 3:5. Revelation 3:18.

Jesus opened His ministry in his first coming in Luke 4:18-19, quoting from the prophet Isaiah. He stopped reading AFTER saying THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD in the MIDDLE of a sentence, and SHUT the book. Jesus’ ministry in His first coming opened a time of God’s GRACE through the Church.

In Isaiah 61:1-2, the prophecy of Isaiah FINISHES where Jesus LEFT OFF. After “the acceptable year of the Lord” (GRACE--THE AGE of the Church) is the DAY OF VENGEANCE OF OUR GOD. AFTER the Church age the tribulation will come--“the day of vengeance of our God.” We understand HOW the Church will be Raptured, then THAT DAY will come--and it’s Pre-Tribulation.

Revelation 4:1-11 opens with “AFTER THIS I looked, and behold a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET talking with me (the trumpet voice of Jesus--seeRevelation 1:10); which said, Come up hither, and I will show you things which must come HEREAFTER.” “After this” and “hereafter” are the same Greek word “meta tauta” which means AFTER THESE THINGS. After WHAT things? AFTER the THINGS of the SEVEN CHURCHES (the complete “Church Age”) in Revelation 2 and 3. Jesus will call “Come up hither” with His TRUMPET VOICE--the trump of God--and the Church, like John, will go through an OPEN DOOR in heaven in a PRE-TRIB Rapture! The structure is HIGHLY EVIDENT! Plus, the Holy Spirit REPEATED “hereafter” TWO TIMES to make this ABUNDANTLY CLEAR! Pre-Trib!

A door is SHUT BEHIND some believers in Isaiah 26:19-20. Isaiah 26:19 shows the resurrection from the dead. Isaiah 26:20 shows the TRANSLATION (Rapture) of those who are alive. “Come, My people, enter you into your chambers (mansions), and SHUT your DOOR about you; HIDE yourself as it were for A LITTLE MOMENT (7 years) until THE INDIGNATION be overpast.” The Church will enter heaven for 7 years, a little moment, until the INDIGNATION (God’s wrath upon the rebellious world) is done. The Rapture of the Church is Pre-Trib. How can people miss this?

All believers in the Church must APPEAR before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) This event is NEVER mentioned in the events of the Second Coming, when Jesus sets His feet on the earth.


The 24 Elders in Revelation 4 and 5 are REPRESENTATIVE of a Raptured and glorified Church.

The 24 Elders CANNOT be angels. Angels DON’T WEAR crowns. Angels DON’T sit with God to rule and reign. We MUST define the 24 ELDERS by their SPECIFIC descriptions.

Elders--a term used for Church leadership.

Elders, the Greek “presbuteros.” Church terminology--the “Presbytery.”

The number 24. In 1 Chronicles 24:1-31, King David divided the Priesthood into 24 COURSES because they’d grown so large. When 24 LEADERS of the COURSES met BEFORE David’s throne, the WHOLE PRIESTHOOD was REPRESENTED. The 24 ELDERS represent the ENTIRE CHURCH before God’s throne. This is a picture of the Church as PRIESTS.

The number 24 (part 2). The Church is composed of BOTH Jews and Gentiles. 12 tribes of Israel. 12 apostles of the Church. A total of 24.

The Elders SIT. The work of the Church on earth in “the age of God’s Grace” is done.

The Elders sit on THRONES--the Church is seated on THRONES as KINGS.

The Elders wear “SPECIFIC” WHITE RAIMENT. The Church is promised white garments. Revelation 3:4-5. Revelation 3:18. That our garments (and ourselves) are to be washed and spotless are seen inEphesians 5:26-27, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:14. Jude 1:23 and Revelation 1:5.

The Elders wear CROWNS, which are STEPHANOS, given for OVERCOMING and GAINING A VICTORY (for finishing the race). The same kind of CROWNS are given to the Church. 1 Corinthians 9:25-27.1 Thessalonians 2:19-20. 2 Timothy 4:8. James 1:12. 1 Peter 5:4. Revelation 2:10 b. Revelation 3:11.

The Elders wear crowns OF GOLD. Gold shows KINGSHIP. This shows the Church as KINGS.

In Revelation 5:1-14, the Elders sing a NEW SONG of THEIR REDEMPTION (as seen in the King James Version--which is translated from a MORE RELIABLE old manuscript). The Elders sing of being SAVED by the blood of Jesus.

The Elders are saved “out of” (“called-out of”) every kindred, tongue, people and nation on earth. The Church is predominantly Gentile, “called-out of” the world.

In Ezekiel and Daniel we find SIMILAR DESCRIPTIONS of heaven as shown in the Revelation. EXCEPT FOR ONE THING. The Old Testament prophets did NOT see 24 Elders! Why? The Church is a MYSTERY which was NOT clearly revealed in the Old Testament.

The Church is called THE BRIDE of Christ. The comparison to marriage and Christ and His Church is made in Ephesians 5:22-33, and especially seen in verses Ephesians 5:29-32.

The WEDDING of Jesus and His Church follows the Jewish model. Remember, Jesus CAME to the Jews, God in the flesh of a man through a JEWISH LINEAGE.

In John 14:1-3 (where the Rapture of the Church is PROMISED), the structure of the Jewish wedding ceremony is HEAVILY IMPLIED. “In My Father’s house are many mansions.” “I GO and PREPARE a place for you.” “I will come again and receive you unto Myself…”

In the Jewish wedding, the groom INITIATES an AGREEMENT to marry a woman with the bride’s father. The groom PAYS A PRICE for his bride (the mohar). Jesus PAID THE PRICE for His Church with His own precious blood.

Once the agreement for the marriage is made and the price is paid, the marriage covenant is established. The young man and woman are considered as husband and wife, even though they have not yet lived together. From the payment of the mohar the bride is DECLARED to be CONSECRATED or SANCTIFIED--(“set apart” for her groom). As a SYMBOL of that CONSECRATION, the groom and bride drink a cup of wine over which the betrothal is announced. The Church is SET APART and SANCTIFIED unto Jesus. IN REMEMBRANCE OF THE PRICE that Jesus paid, the Church drinks the cup of communion wine.

After the marriage covenant is established, the groom leaves his bride at her home. He RETURNS to the HOME of his FATHER, where he will remain for about 12 months. After Jesus paid the price with His blood, HE RETURNED TO HIS FATHER’S HOUSE IN HEAVEN. The Church is LEFT AT HER HOME (a temporary place) upon the earth.

The bride has time to PREPARE her wedding trousseau, GETTING READY for married life. The Church remains true to Jesus, PREPARING TO MEET HIM SOMEDAY.

At the home of his father, the groom PREPARES A DWELLING PLACE for himself and his bride. Jesus returned to His Father’s house in heaven at the time of His ascension. He promised His followers that while He’s there, He PREPARES MANSIONS for us to dwell in.

At THE END of the period of separation, the bridegroom WILL RETURN--usually at night--to TAKE his bride TO COME LIVE WITH HIM. The groom, his best man, and other male escorts will leave the father’s house and do a torch-light procession to the home of the bride. The bride DOES NOT KNOW THE TIME of her bridegroom’s coming. As a result, the groom’s arrival is preceded by a shout. The TIME when Jesus will DESCEND into the air, to catch His Bride up to Himself is UNKNOWN. Therefore, the Church is exhorted to BE READY. Someday, the SHOUT which precedes Him will reach our ears and we’ll RISE UP TO MEET HIM.

After the groom receives his bride (together with her bridesmaids), the enlarged group RETURNS to the HOUSE of the GROOM’S FATHER. Jesus and His Church will be united in HEAVEN after the Rapture, at the HOUSE of GOD, THE FATHER.

The bride and groom, shortly after their arrival at the house of the groom’s father, are escorted by other members of the wedding party to THE BRIDAL CHAMBER. The bride wears a veil so her face is not seen. The marriage is consummated. A little later, it’s ANNOUNCED to the wedding guests, AT WHICH TIME the guests have a party for SEVEN DAYS. Once in heaven, Jesus and His Church will have our marriage sealed, and it’s ANNOUNCED in heaven. Then SEVEN DAYS of celebration (corresponding to the SEVEN YEARS of the tribulation) ensues.

While the SEVEN days of the celebration takes place, the bride and groom remain HIDDEN in the bridal chamber, called the “huppah.” AFTER the SEVEN DAYS are finished, the groom comes OUT OF HIDING, bringing his wife with him, and her veil is removed so all can see her. At that time, the marriage is ANNOUNCED TO THE WORLD AT LARGE. When the SEVEN YEARS of the tribulation is finished, Christ and His Bride will LEAVE THEIR CHAMBERS. Jesus will RETURN to the earth in His Second Coming to set His feet on the Mt. of Olives, and His Bride (the Church) will ACCOMPANY Him! At that time, the marriage is ANNOUNCED TO THE WORLD AT LARGE, and people will see the face of the Bride, as she RULES and REIGNS with Jesus.

The MARRIAGE of Christ and the Church is seen in Romans 7:4. “…that you should be married to another--even to Him Who is raised from the dead.”

In 2 Corinthians 11:2, we, the Church, are “espoused to one husband,” that we may be presented as “a chaste virgin to Christ.”

In James 4:4, the Church is warned about the lusts of the flesh and love of the world which makes us “adulterers and adulteresses”--a people who turn against their wedding vows (by refusing to keep themselves separate from such things).

The Apostle Paul continually reminds the Church of THE HIGH COST of our PURCHASE PRICE, the BLOOD of Jesus. Paul continually teaches of our COVENANT WITH CHRIST, by which we, His Bride, are SET APART and SANCTIFIED.

There is clearly a “coming of Jesus” FOR His “Bride” BEFORE His Second Coming to earth. During the tribulation, His Bride is ALREADY in heaven, and WILL RETURN to earth WITH Him at the Second Coming.Revelation 19:7-10 and Revelation 19:14. Jude 1:14-15.

Jesus Christ told His disciples that His coming will be as the days of Noah - and then Jesus Christ, Himself, proceeded to describe the chronology of those days by explicitly stating that Noah "entered into the ark" before the flood came (Matthew 24:37-39). "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." - Matthew 24:39.

To emphasize this point, Jesus Christ repeated this detailed account in Luke 17:26, recording the detail that Noah "entered into the ark" before the flood, and then "the flood came" (Luke 17:26-27). "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." - Luke 17:30

Jesus Christ also told His disciples that His coming will be as the days of Lot - and then Jesus Christ, Himself, proceeded to describe the chronology of that event by explicitly stating that Lot "went out of Sodom" before God's judgment rained down (Luke 17:28-29). "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." -Luke 17:30

God reminds us of these individuals again, and tells us that it is God's nature to deliver believers before divine judgment: Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (II Pet. 2:5-9). Note that Peter (who penned the book of Peter) was present when Christ told it to His disciples the first time.

Right after that, He tells them about Noah and Lot, He further emphasizes this and describes 2-3 examples (Matthew 24:40-41, Luke 17:34-36) of how some people will be taken, and some will be left.

Right after that, He warns them "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." If Christ returns at any other time than before the Tribulation, then you would know (to the day) when to expect Him. The fact that He is coming before is what catches people off guard.

Right after that, He tells them of the metaphor of the unannounced thief (Matthew 24:43-44), and told His disciples His coming would be in the same manner.

Right after that, He uses the illustration of the unfaithful servant who was caught off-guard by his master's unannounced return (Matthew 24:45-51).

Right after that, He tells them the parable of the ten virgins, and how some were caught unprepared for the bridegroom's unannounced return (Matthew 25:1-12).

Right after that, He warns them a second time, "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." - Matthew 25:13.

Right after that, He tells them of the parable of the talents, and a servant who was caught unprepared for his master's return (Matthew 25:14-30).

Here, in one sitting, Jesus Christ plainly explains the pattern of His return to a group of fishermen, and to make absolutely sure that they understand what He is saying, He lays out 2 biographical patterns, 2 pattern parables, and 2 explicit warnings about these pattern (with additional implied warnings woven throughout); the fact that He repeated something they needed to know six times in one sitting should tell us that He wants us to be absolutely clear about it!
Any teaching that ignores, contradicts, or reverses this clearly spelled-out pattern will end up ignoring and contradicting other Scripture as well, leading to confusion and deception. Do not hold to any prophetic pattern that goes against Christ's given pattern. The very first words out of Christ's mouth when He sat down to tell His disciples these things was this warning: "Take heed that no man deceive you." (Matthew 24:4).

The church is not appointed to wrath (Romans 5:9, I Thess.1:9-10; I Thess. 5:9). The church cannot enter "the great day of his wrath" (Rev. 6:17). Thirteen times in Revelation, the time of the Tribulation is described as a time of wrath (Rev. 6:16,Rev. 6:17, Rev. 11:18, Rev. 12:12, Rev. 14:8, Rev. 14:10, Rev. 14:19, Rev. 15:1, Rev. 15:7,Rev. 16:1, Rev. 16:19, Rev. 18:3,Rev. 19:15).

No NT tribulation passage mentions the church (Matthew 13:30, 39-42,48-50; 24:15-31; I Thess. 1:9-10; 5:4-9; II Thess. 2:1-11, Rev. 4-18). Nor is the translation (rapture) of the church ever mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming after the tribulation.

Historical concept of imminency surrounding Christ's return. From a historical concept, the doctrine is not new, just more clearly classified and understood.

Pre-Trib allows literal interpretation of OT & NT. Post-trib must use some symbols or analogies.

Pre-Trib has a clear distinguishing between Israel and the church. Post-Trib has "replacement theology"

Pre-Trib gives distinction between Great Tribulation and tribulation in general. Acts 14:22 - the word tribulation is afflictions, not the time of God's wrath. Two different greek words.

Great Tribulation is for Israel's restoration, not to prepare the church for Glory (Deut. 4:29-30, Jeremiah 30:4-11 - "...even in the latter days..." "correct thee")

Pre-trib is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.

The Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Rev. 11. Pre-trib teaches that it starts in ch. 6.

Mid-trib teaches that the seventh trumpet of Rev. 11, the last of trumpet I Cor. 15:52, and the trumpet of Matt. 24:31 are the same event; but, they are three distinct events. They are not connected.

Pre-trib maintains the unity of the 70 weeks. Post & mid destroy the unity of the 70 weeks and confuse Israel's program with that of the church.

The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (I Thess. 5:1-9).

The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.

The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from "the hour of temptation."Rev. 3:10

After translation, believers go to the Father's House in heaven (John 14:3).

Pre-trib does not divide the Body of Christ at the Rapture on a work principle (partial rapture). It is the final climatic aspect of salvation by grace.

All, not part, of the church will be raptured. (I Cor. 15:51-52, I Thess. 4:17).

The remnant of the Tribulation are Israelites, not members of the church.

Pre-trib does not confuse terms like 'elect' and 'saints' (saved of all ages). "Church" & "those in Christ" are those saved before Rapture. The "elect" and "saints" after the Rapture are not part of the Bride of Christ, the church.

The church is to look for signs of His coming. Believers in Tribulation are to look for signs.

Holy Spirit, as a restrainer, is removed before the lawless one dominates the Tribulation. II Thess. 2:6-8. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint (Holy Spirit) is lifted. Believers (Spirit-in dwelt) are translated.

II Cor. 5:10 records all believers before the judgment seat of Christ in Heaven - an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the Second Coming of Christ to earth.

The 24 elders (Rev. 4:4-11) as reps of the church would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation. They cannot be in three spots at the same time if post-trib.

The wedding feast takes place before the Second Coming. Rev. 19:7-10.

Tribulations saints are not raptured at the second coming, but remain and have children (Isa. 65:20-25) and enter into the Millennium Kingdom.

The judgment of the Gentiles following the second coming (Matt. 25:31-46) is on natural bodies - which would have been impossible if they were translated at the Second Coming.

If the Rapture took place at the Second Coming, there would be no need to separate the sheep from the goats. (Matt. 25:31)

The coming of Christ is imminent. If it waited on the Tribulation, it would not be imminent.

The exhortation to be comforted (I Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pre-tribulational view (contradicted by most post-tribulation). There is no comfort in having to suffer through the Tribulation and its horrors.

Believers are to look for signs of His coming, not signs of the Tribulation. Titus 2:13.

The exhortation to purify yourself in light of His coming has most significance if His coming is imminent. I John 3:2-3.

Pretribulationism maintains the scriptural distinction between the Great Tribulation and tribulation in general that precedes it.

The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the Tribulation to prepare the church for glory.

None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30: 4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2).

None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30; 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18).

In contrast to midtribulationism, the pretribulational view provides an adequate explanation for the beginning of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 6. Midtribulationism is refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11.

The proper distinction is maintained between the prophetic trumpets of Scripture by pretribulationism. There is no proper ground for the pivotal argument of midtribulationism that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in that there is no established connection between the seventh trumpet of Revelation
11, the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the trumpet of Matthew 24:31. They are three distinct events.

The unity of Daniel’s seventieth week is maintained by pretribulationists. By contrast, postribulationism and midtribulationists destroy the unity of Daniel’s seventieth week and confuse Israel’s program with that of the church.

The translation of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming of Christ after the Tribulation.

The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom. 5:9: 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter “the great day of their wrath” (Rev. 6:17).

The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:1-9, which includes the Tribulation.

The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.

The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from “the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth” (Rev. 3:10).

It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted on the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Peter 2:5-9).

At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father’s house in heaven (John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as postribulationists teach.

Pretribulationism does not divide the body of Christ at the Rapture on a works principle. The teaching of a partial rapture is based on the false doctrine that the translation of the church is a reward for good works. It is rather a climactic aspect of salvation by grace.

The Scriptures clearly teach that all, not part, of the church will be raptured at the coming of Christ for the church (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:17).

As opposed to a view of a partial rapture, pretribulationism is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.

The godly remnant of the Tribulation are pictured as Israelites, not members of the church as maintained by the posttribulationists.

The pretribulational view, as opposed to posttribulationism, does not confuse general terms like elect and saints, which apply to the saved of all ages, with specific terms like church and those in Christ, which refer to believers of this age only.

The exhortation to be comforted by the coming of the Lord (1 Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pretribulational view and is especially contradicted by most posttribulationists.

The exhortation to look for “the glorious appearing” of Christ to His own (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must intervene first. Believers in that case should look for signs.

The exhortation to purify ourselves in view of the Lord’s return has most significance if His coming is imminent (1 John 3:2-3).

The church is uniformly exhorted to look for the coming of the Lord, while believers in the Tribulation are directed to look for signs.

The Holy Spirit as the restrainer of evil cannot be taken out of the world unless the church, which the Spirit indwells, is translated at the same time. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint is lifted.

The Holy Spirit as the restrainer must be taken out of the world before “the lawless one,” who dominates the tribulation period, can be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8).

If the expression “except there come a falling away first” (KJV) is translated literally, “except the “departure” come first,” it would plainly show the necessity of the Rapture taking place before the beginning of the Tribulation.

According to 2 Corinthians 5:10, all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven, an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

If the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church as many expositors believe, it would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation.

The coming of Christ for His bride must take place before the Second Coming to the earth for the wedding feast (Rev. 19:7-10).

Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and they will bear children (Isa. 65:20-25). This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach.

The judgment of the Gentiles following the Second Coming (Matt. 25:31-46) indicates that both saved and unsaved are still in their natural bodies. This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming.

If the translation took place in connection with the Second Coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31).

The judgment of Israel (Ezek. 20:34-38), which occurs subsequent to the Second Coming, indicates the necessity of regathering Israel. The separation of the saved from the unsaved in this judgment obviously takes place sometime after the Second Coming and would be unnecessary if the saved had previously been separated from the unsaved by translation.

At the time of the Rapture the saints meet Christ in the air, while at the Second Coming Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the saints on earth.

At the time of the Rapture the Mount of Olives is unchanged, while at the Second Coming it divides and a valley is formed to the east of Jerusalem (Zech. 14:4-5).

At the Rapture living saints are translated, while no saints are translated in connection with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

At the Rapture the saints go to heaven, while at the Second Coming to the earth the saints remain in the earth without translation.

At the time of the Rapture the world is unjudged and continues in sin, while at the Second Coming the world is judged and righteousness is established on the earth.

The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance before the day of wrath, while the Second Coming is followed by the deliverance of those who have believed in Christ during the Tribulation.

The Rapture is described as imminent, while the Second Coming is preceded by definite signs.

The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the New Testament, while the Second Coming with its attendant events is a prominent doctrine of both Testaments.

The Rapture concerns only the saved, while the Second Coming deals with both saved and unsaved.

At the Rapture Satan is not bound, while at the Second Coming Satan is bound and cast into the abyss.

No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the Rapture, while many signs must be fulfilled before the Second Coming.

No passage dealing with the resurrection of saints at the Second Coming ever mentions translation of living saints at the same time.

Instead of watching for Jesus to come in the air, instead of anticipating His arrival with joy, people watch for the APPEARANCE of the ANTICHRIST, for signs, for wars, and for the unfolding of many other prophecies FIRST. This DESTROYS imminence.

Scripture declare that no one KNOWS the day or the hour of Jesus’ appearance. This HAS TO MEAN the Rapture His Church! If it were meant for the time AFTER the tribulation, it does NOT make sense. The days and hours of the tribulation CAN BE COUNTED and KNOWN, according the prophecy of Daniel 9:27! EXACT years, months and days are GIVEN--and anyone WHO SEES the antichrist make the “peace covenant” with Israel can BEGIN counting--ARRIVING at the year, month, and day when Jesus’ feet will touch the earth. Should the Church be required to enter the tribulation, we’d calculate the day and the hour--which is the opposite NOT KNOWING! The scriptures MUST show TWO DIFFERENT events!

We see many instances where Jesus exhorted His people to watch, emphasizing NOT KNOWING the day or the hour. InMatthew 24:42-47, the Goodman of the house is to be WATCHING.

In Mark 13:28-37, the parable of the fig tree (the rebirth of Israel) is given, showing a general time and season. Jesus again exhorted His people to be ready and WATCHING, because they do NOT know the day or the hour when He will come.

In Luke 21:29-36, the parable of the fig tree is repeated, with a parallel warning, to be ready and WATCHING, because no one KNOWS the day or hour (when Jesus will appear to Rapture His true Church).

In Matt 24:48-51, the evil servant did NOT watch. He said, “the Lord DELAYS His coming.” Thinking there’s plenty of time BEFORE the Lord appears, the evil servant began beating his fellow servants, and fulfilling the LUSTS of his flesh, eating and drinking with the drunken. Jesus will come when that evil servant is NOT looking for him, NOT expecting His imminent arrival, in an hour when the servant is NOT AWARE--NOT WATCHING! The Lord will cut that servant asunder--in judgment. People who do NOT EXPECT the Lord’s IMMINENT coming GROW LAX in keeping guard over their lives, and are NOT ready--because they think there’s still plenty of time.

Following the early Church councils (where sound Christian doctrine was upheld), came a time of decline. Many doctrines that mainline denominations support are based on heresies proposed by Augustine--no millennium, the “spiritualization” and “allegorical” methods of interpretation. IMMINENCE was lost. And a Church which was NOT EXPECTING the Lord’s SOON RETURN became lax in sharing the Gospel, and drifted into many areas of error. (Another fact of history.)

Rapture is from the Latin “rapere” or “rapturo” which is INDEED found in the Latin Vulgate Version of the Bible. It’s from this Latin root that we get our English word “raptor.” A raptor (eagle, osprey, hawk, owl) swoops down from above to suddenly “snatch up” its dinner with force. In the rapture, Jesus will descend into the air and suddenly “snatch up” His Church to Himself with THE FORCE of His words, “Come up here” (which is seen in Revelation 4:1).

The Greek word for the Rapture is “harpazo” which is translated as “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The literal definition of “harpazo” is to catch up and away, to pluck up, to take by force.

While “the word” Rapture is not found in our English translations of the Bible, it is INDEED there as “caught up” and in THE ACTION displayed IN that event!

The famous Rapture scriptures are these: the promise of it in John 14:1-3, the Old Testament description of it in Isaiah 26:19-20, Paul’s teachings upon it in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 to 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8.

The ACTIONS shown in Revelation 4:1 is a TYPE of the Rapture, present in the DISPLAYED ACTION, and IN the SEQUENCE of events--(occurring AFTER the testimony of the SEVEN CHURCHES in Revelation 2:1-29 and Revelation 3:1-22). “After” is DECLARED TWICE in Revelation 4:1 --“After these things” and “hereafter.” AFTER what things? AFTER the ministry of the SEVEN CHURCHES. When the “plain sense” makes “perfect sense” seek “no other sense.”

Israel, and the Jewish Pharisees, at the time of Jesus did NOT recognize their promised Messiah when Jesus presented Himself to them. Why? They didn’t differentiate between their own prophecies which show the TWO COMINGS OF JESUS.

In Jesus’ FIRST COMING, He arrived on earth as the SUFFERING Messiah. Isaiah 53:2-10. Psalms 22:6-8 and Psalms 11:1-18.

In Jesus’ SECOND COMING, He’ll arrive on earth as a CONQUERING and REIGNING King. Psalms 2:6-12. Zechariah 12:9 andZechariah 9:16.

Jews, who studied the scripture (as if they had a microscope) missed this. When Jesus did not FIT THEIR IDEA of a KING, they rejected Him. How could that be? How could they have missed it? TWO REASONS: (a.) They had PRECONCEIVED IDEAS of what to expect. (b.) They “studied” scripture with NATURAL UNDERSTANDING (the corrupt mind of the flesh--which is AT ENMITY--and hostile to God. Romans 8:7-8and 2 Corinthians 2:9-14). The religious leaders continually tried to TRAP Jesus, and He rebuked them often, which further infuriated them. (Matthew 12:1-50 is the classic example of their blindness.) The “religious” people could NOT see Who Jesus really was. When Jesus said “I AM” (the Hebrew equivalent of God’s name-- Luke 22:70), and said that they would see Him sitting at the right hand of God, the Father (Matthew 26:64), they tore their clothes and accused Him of blasphemy! This led to His crucifixion, exactly as the scriptures prophesied. The “religious leaders” in Israel were “instrumental” in (helping) to fulfill their own prophecies.

Today, people also study the scriptures with their NATURAL UNDERSTANDING (without the Light of the Holy Spirit). They have PRECONCEIVED IDEAS of HOW the prophecies will be fulfilled. Many do NOT see the Second Coming of Jesus as happening in stages.

Stage ONE is The Rapture of the Church, when Jesus descends into the air to call His Church up to Himself. Stage TWO is the Second Coming, when the feet of Jesus actually touch the earth.

1 Corinthians 15:22-25 CLARIFIES the STAGES, by showing us STAGES of the First Resurrection.

Christ is the FIRSTFRUITS of those who RISE from the dead. This happened on the Feast of Firstfruits, three days AFTER Jesus died.

“Afterward, they that are Christ’s at His Coming.” This is the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.

THEN COMES THE END--in which the Kingdom of God will be established at the start of the Millennium. “For He (Jesus) MUST REIGN--till He has put ALL ENEMIES under His feet”--(during the Millennium). According to the structure of 1 Corinthians 15:22-25, AFTER “the tribulation” is DONE, a THIRD STAGE of the First Resurrection will occur so that some saints can enter the Millennium in their glorified flesh. These are the tribulation saints-- Revelation 20:4. And the Old Testament saints-- Job 19:25-26.

The SEQUENCE of 1 Corinthians 15:22-25 clearly SHOW a Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church! When the “plain sense” makes “perfect sense” seek “no other sense.”

DETAILS of The Rapture and the Second Coming are VERY DIFFERENT and CANNOT be the same event! We must RIGHTLY DIVIDE the Word of God! 2 Timothy 2:15.

There’s a DISTINCTION between the Church and Israel. Acts 15:14-15. Romans 11:25-27.

To suggest that the Church will remain on earth for the tribulation CONFUSES the message of Daniel’s 70th week, and causes the Church TO RECEIVE what was APPOINTED to Israel and their Holy City.

The UNITY of Daniel’s 70th week is MAINTAINED by the Pre-Trib view. By contrast, the Mid-Trib and Pre-Wrath views DESTROY that unity and CONFUSES God’s PROGRAM for Israel with that of the Church.

The Post-Trib view denies the clear teaching of the 70th week by subjecting the literal prophecy to one form or another of allegory. It gives Israel’s destiny to the Church!

In the 70th week (during the “tribulation”) as prophesied in Zechariah 13:8-9--TWO-THIRDS of Israel will NOT SURVIVE, but will PERISH. A THIRD part of them will come through THE FIRE of that time, REFINED like silver and gold, and will SAY that the Lord is their God. It’s NOT the Church who will be refined by that terrible judgment!

The PROPHECY for ISRAEL clearly says, “Seventy weeks are DETERMINED upon your people (Daniel’s people--Israel) and upon your Holy City (Jerusalem).” Daniel 9:24. There is NO MENTION of the Church.

The Church Age fits into a PARENTHESIS that happens between Daniel’s 69th and 70th week.

God STOPPED Israel’s CLOCK in order for the Church Age to happen. God won’t RESTART Israel’s CLOCK until the after Church Age is finished.

The dispensation of Israel (under the law) was INTERRUPTED by the dispensation of God’s Grace through the Church. When the dispensation of GRACE in the Church is complete, then God will RESUME and FINISH the INTERRUPTED dispensation of His law in Israel. Clearly shown by the GAP between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel 9:24-27.

Yes, there are DISPENSATIONS in God’s dealing with mankind during the millennia. (I mention this because many people OBJECT to the idea of God having separate programs, especially for the Church and Israel.) A “dispensation” is defined as God’s MANNER OF WORKING as He performs His ADMINISTRATION, overseeing various groups of people throughout the scripture. He has dealt with VARIOUS groups in DIFFERING means of ADMINISTRATION. We can SEE it by paying CAREFUL attention to what’s recorded in the whole Bible. Dispensations are CLEARLY mentioned in 1 Corinthians 9:17, Ephesians 1:10,Ephesians 3:2 and Colossians 1:25-26.

The tribulation (all 7 years of it) is distinctly JEWISH in nature.

In the Church, there is NEITHER Jew or Gentile, but ALL are ONE in Christ’s BODY. Ephesians 2:11-22.Galatians 3:28.

Yet in the tribulation, there IS a distinction. Revelation 7:1-17 --144,000 sealed servants from the twelve tribes of Israel.Jeremiah 30:7 --which speaks of the tribulation as “Jacob’s trouble.”

During the chapters of Revelation which gives DETAILS about the tribulation, the Church is not mentioned--not even ONCE. From Revelation 6 through Revelation 18.

The Church is the KEY player (sharing the Gospel) from Acts to Jude.

The Church is KEY player in Revelation 1 to 5, AND is seen again in Revelation 19 to 22.

There’s an ABSENCE of TEACHING about the TRIBULATION in KEY “Church-related” Bible passages. That’s why there is NO INSTRUCTION given to the Church on how to LIVE THROUGH the tribulation. BECAUSE the Church will NOT need to know HOW TO SURVIVE the tribulation. The Church will NOT be in it!

When ISRAEL was CENTRAL in the Old Testament, the Church was a MYSTERY.

When Israel was the CENTRAL FOCUS in the Gospels, the Church is virtually unmentioned.

When the CHURCH is the FOCUS in Acts through Jude, ISRAEL is NOT mentioned (EXCEPT when the Apostles told THE CHURCH to NOT to deem themselves better--ISRAEL will be grafted back in. PLUS there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile) in the CHURCH, but ALL are the BODY OF CHRIST).

The Church is CENTRAL in Revelation 1 to 3 (mentioned 19 times), and is also seen in Revelation 4 and 5 in the description of the 24 elders. Israel is NOT mentioned in those first chapters.

When Israel is in FOCUS IN Revelation 6 to 18, the Church is NOT mentioned.

Only when God’s PURPOSE for BOTH the Church and Israel is finished--then God SPEAKS of them TOGETHER. Revelation 19 to 22.

There are NO passages in either the Old or New Testament which SPECIFICALLY SAYS that the Church will go through the tribulation. (Try to find where it SPECIFICALLY SAYS that the Church will be IN the tribulation--it can’t be found!)

The tribulation is called THE TIME of “Jacob’s Trouble” Jeremiah 30:7. The tribulation is NEVER called the time of “The Church’s Trouble.”

The Church has NO PART in the first 69 weeks of Daniel’s prophecy, and it will have NO PART in the final 70th week either!

The GODLY REMNANT of the tribulation have descriptions and attributes upon them--THE SAME as seen upon Old Testament ISRAEL. The Church is NOT present during that time--there are NO “Church-related descriptions” upon tribulation saints.

THE Pre-Trib view (UNLIKE Mid-Trib, Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath), does NOT CONFUSE terms like “elect” and “saints” OF THE TRIBULATION with the Church. Terms like CHURCH and IN CHRIST apply ONLY to those who are IN the BODY OF CHRIST in THIS AGE, and these terms are NEVER found in passages which relate to the tribulation.

Israel is NOT cut-off from the COVENANTS that God gave them. But blindness (in part) will be their destiny UNTIL the Church is complete. Acts 15:14-16. Romans 11:1 and Romans 11:25-27.

Many prophecies have the characteristic of showing a LOCAL fulfillment (AT or NEAR the time when it was given), then they JUMP AHEAD to the TIME OF THE END--when they are COMPLETELY fulfilled.

These are known as PARTIAL FULFILLMENT'S or DUAL FULFILLMENT'S--which are NOTHING UNUSUAL in the scripture.

EXAMPLE ONE: In Daniel 11:1-45, the prophecy discusses IN DETAIL the Greek Empire, Alexander the Great, the breaking of the Greek Empire into four parts, wars between kings of the south (Egypt, the Ptolemies) and kings of the north (Syria, the Seleucids), and the arrival of Antiochus IV Epiphanes (a powerful TYPE of the Antichrist). In the middle of showing THE WORK of Antiochus Epiphanes, the prophecy SKIPS to THE END, to focus upon the “ultimate antichrist” (from verses Daniel 11:36-45).

EXAMPLE TWO: When Jesus BEGAN His ministry, He read from the prophecy of Isaiah, quoting UP TO the phrase “the acceptable year of the Lord.” And he closed the book. Jesus stopped reading in the middle of a sentence, because THE REMAINDER of that passage will be fulfilled at the time of THE END, in the tribulation--beginning with “and the day of vengeance of our God.” Luke 4:18-19. Isaiah 61:1-3.

EXAMPLE THREE: In Daniel 9:24, the prophet starts showing 70 weeks which are determined upon Israel. It’s fulfilled right up to A SPECIFIC DAY--when Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem, allowing the people to declare Him as King: “Blessed be the King Who comes in the name of the Lord.” (Luke 19:38, Palm Sunday). Then Messiah was CUT OFF (crucified), just like Daniel prophesied. Jesus KNEW what was DECREED to occur, because He lamented in Luke 19:42 --“If you (Israel) had known, even you, at least in THIS YOUR DAY, the things which belong unto your peace! But NOW they are HID from your eyes.” (The fulfillment of Daniel 9:26 is AN EXACT amount of 173,880 days--that scholars in Israel should have KNOWN--from THE TIME of the DECREE to rebuild Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity until PALM SUNDAY! “THIS YOUR DAY” (for Israel) was Nisan 10--THE DAY when the nation CHOSE their LAMBS for Passover. The EXACT DAY in history was April 6, 32 A.D.--when Jesus, the TRUE LAMB OF GOD, entered Jerusalem on the donkey.) Then He was CUT OFF. The REMAINDER of Daniel’s prophecy, in verse Daniel 9:27, JUMPS to THE END (after the parenthetical AGE of THE CHURCH is inserted). After the Church is COMPLETE, and TAKEN to HEAVEN in the Pre-Trib Rapture, the LAST SEVEN YEARS of Israel’s prophecy will be fulfilled during the tribulation.

In Matthew 24:36-42 and Luke 17:26-27, we see the EVENTS (plural) of the Church’s Rapture and the Second Coming of Jesus likened to the days of Noah. The KEY thing to see, is that, like in the “days of Noah,” people on earth will be doing BUSINESS AS USUAL--eating and drinking, marrying, giving in marriage--right up to THE DAY that Noah entered the ARK--his shelter from God’s judgment. Likewise, the Church is TAKEN to SAFETY in the Pre-Trib Rapture--then THE WORLD will suffer God’s judgment.

The world of Noah’s time was exceedingly wicked and violent, ripe for judgment. The world, at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture, will be exceedingly wicked and violent, ripe for judgment. 2 Timothy 1:1-3. 2 Timothy 3:1-9.

Noah’s ark was LIFTED ABOVE the JUDGMENT, and ALL within the ARK were KEPT SAFE and were NOT judged. So likewise, the Church will be LIFTED ABOVE the judgment, and take to heaven, in our ARK, Jesus, and will NOT suffer WRATH.

The ARK had only ONE DOOR. Jesus is the ONLY DOOR through which people may come to God and BE SAVED from the HIS WRATH. John 14:6.

Noah and the ark CAN be pictured as Israel kept safe THROUGH the JUDGMENT, but that interpretation does NOT take into account that TWO-THIRDS of Israel will PERISH in the tribulation’s judgment. Zechariah 13:9. NOBODY perished on Noah’s ark! NOBODY in the true Church will perish in the tribulation.

In Luke 17:28-30, we see the EVENTS (plural) of the Church’s Rapture and the Second Coming of Jesus likened to the days of Lot. Again, the KEY thing to see, is that, like in the “days of Lot,” people in Sodom were conducting BUSINESS AS USUAL. They ate and drank, bought and sold, planted and built--right up to THE DAY that the FIRE hit Sodom. God--(in answer to Abraham, who asked in Genesis 18:1-33 ---“Will You destroy the righteous with the wicked?”)--made sure Lot, a righteous man, was removed from Sodom BEFORE the judgment. God’s PLAIN ANSWER--I will NOT cast the righteous into a time of judgment! Likewise, when the true Church is TAKEN to SAFETY in the Pre-Trib Rapture, THE WICKED WORLD will suffer God’s judgment.

The city of Lot was exceedingly wicked. Righteous Lot was VEXED by what occurred around him, which is described in Genesis 19:1-38 as blatant, “in your face,” homosexuality. 2 Peter 2:6-9 says that the Lord KNOWS HOW to DELIVER the RIGHTEOUS, and RESERVE THE UNRIGHTEOUS for His day of judgment. The world, prior to the Pre-Trib Rapture, will also show the increase of homosexuality, and like Sodom, will be sorely judged. The true Church, like righteous Lot, will be REMOVED BEFORE the judgment hits (Pre-Trib).

In Genesis 19:16, we see how Lot lingered. The angels, who were sent to REMOVE Lot from Sodom, LAID HOLD upon Lot’s hand, and also LAID HOLD of Lot’s wife and daughters. The angels BROUGHT them FORTH and SET them outside the city BEFORE the fire could fall. In the ACTION of LAID HOLD, we see that the angels SEIZED Lot and his family BY FORCE to REMOVED them--the EXACT DEFINITION for “Rapture.” Likewise, BEFORE the tribulation, the true Church will be “seized by force and removed”--THEN the tribulation will come.

In Genesis 19:22, we see the angel tell Lot to “Haste you, ESCAPE”--(to the small town of Zoar). The angel added (and this is important)--“I CANNOT do anything”--(in judgment) UNTIL you are OUT OF THIS PLACE! Likewise, when God’s WRATH of the tribulation approaches, the judgment CANNOT come UNTIL the true Church is TAKEN out of the earth in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

In 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, we see that the tribulation (the day of the Lord) will come like a thief in the night, when people are saying, “Peace and safety,” and, to the world’s surprise (and horror) “sudden destruction” will befall them. But the true Church will NOT be caught in it.

The world will think “peace and safety” is coming. They think by man’s wisdom, society will grow better and better. Do we hear this today? You bet!

The tribulation judgment will HIT, bringing “sudden destruction.” The unrighteous world will NOT ESCAPE. The true Church, however, will NOT be overtaken in that time. We true Christians (BORN-AGAIN, REGENERATED, INDWELLED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, MADE NEW CREATURES IN CHRIST), will obtain SALVATION (the deliverance) from that time of WRATH, and we (whether having died in Jesus--or are alive at the time) will LIVE TOGETHER with Jesus (in heaven in the MANSIONS He’s prepared for us). The pattern of being TAKEN to SAFETY is the SAME throughout scripture--BEFORE God’s judgments come! The Church is promised a Pre-Trib Rapture. Do you believe it?

The Apostle Paul’s exhortation for the Church to be COMFORTED by “the coming of the Lord” (in 1 Thessalonians 4:18) can ONLY BE TRUE in the CONTEXT of a Pre-Trib Rapture. In the Post-Tribulation view, the Lord’s coming is a FEARSOME thing to be dreaded, because of EXPECTING years of horrendous judgments. There’s NO COMFORT in teaching that the Church will go through the tribulation.

We, the true Church are told to LOOK FOR the “glorious appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”Titus 2:13. IF other prophetic events MUST happen BEFORE Jesus can appear, that verse is foolish and doesn’t make sense.

We are to PURIFY OURSELVES in view of Jesus’ soon appearing (1 John 3:2-3). IF His coming is NOT IMMINENT, then that passage is meaningless, too. (People can think, “If He’s NOT going to appear soon, then why bother with being pure?--let’s do what we want for a while.”) Our BLESSED HOPE in the PRE-TRIB RAPTURE, and it’s IMMINENCE, keeps us on our toes, spiritually.

The Church is told to LOOK ONLY for “the coming of Christ” in the Rapture (often called “His appearing”): IF we must LOOK for other prophecies FIRST, that DOESN’T make sense either. Titus 2:13

The Church is told TO ONLY LOOK for the coming of Jesus in the Rapture: It is ISRAEL and the tribulation saints who must LOOK for SIGNS of the Second Coming, and who must ENDURE until the end of the tribulation.

People will be CONFUSED about Jesus’ coming FOR His Church, if they do NOT understand the TRUE NATURE of the Church as a UNIQUE BODY of God’s people, A BRIDE for Jesus.

In the Revelation, WRATH is seen 10 times. Revelation 6:16, Revelation 6:17, Revelation 11:18,Revelation 14:10, Revelation 14:19, Revelation 15:1, Revelation 15:7, Revelation 16:1, Revelation 16:19, andRevelation 19:15. The Church is “not appointed to wrath.” Romans 5:1 and Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and Revelation 3:10. The Church, therefore, CANNOT enter into the “great day of God’s wrath.”

In Revelation 3:10, a FAITHFUL and TRUE Church is promised to be KEPT OUT OF the TIME of TEMPTATION which shall COME UPON the WHOLE WORLD to TRY them who DWELL UPON THE EARTH. This TEMPTATION is the EXPERIENCE of EVIL, ADVERSITY, and EXTREME TROUBLE. Jesus TOLD us to PRAY, “and lead us NOT into TEMPTATION, but DELIVER us from EVIL.” While this is correctly interpreted to mean protection from “ordinary everyday troubles” we face on this earth, it can also have an extended meaning. “TEMPTATION” is the VERY SAME GREEK WORD as seen in Revelation 3:10 --defined as that TIME of THE WORST EVIL which has ever happened on the earth (Matthew 24:21-22). Why would Jesus ask us to PRAY to be DELIVERED from that EVIL, if there were NO ESCAPE possible? Compare to Luke 21:36. There is INDEED a DELIVERANCE available FROM the tribulation (the MOST AWFUL TEMPTATION EVER)--and it’s called the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church!

In 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7 we see that God will REPAY TRIBULATION upon the ones who have TROUBLED the Church. WHILE that RECOMPENSE occurs, the Church will BE AT REST. The Church will receive a Pre-Tribulation rapture!

The Church will NOT be “overtaken by the Day of the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9. The “day of the Lord” is another phrase which defines the tribulation. The Church will NOT be caught in it.

The believer in Jesus, who has prayed to accept Him, WILL be found WORTHY to ESCAPE the tribulation. Luke 21:36.

In Zephaniah 2:1-3, we see an exhortation from God to His people, which parallels THE ATTITUDE we’re to have BEFORE the tribulation arrives. BEFORE the decree comes forth (the “peace covenant” with the antichrist which STARTS the “tribulation”), BEFORE the FIERCE ANGER of the Lord comes--DO THIS! Seek the Lord in righteousness and meekness. WHY? So that we will BE HID in THE DAY of the Lord’s anger--another reference to a Pre-Trib Rapture.

It’s God’s character to DELIVER His own (righteous ones) from His judgments. Enoch, Noah, Lot, and Rahab are a few. The judgment could NOT happen to Sodom until Lot was TAKEN OUT OF THERE. So also, the tribulation CANNOT happen UNTIL the Church is TAKEN OUT OF THE WORLD in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Compare Luke 17:28-30 to Genesis 19:15-22 --paying special attention the verses 16 and 22.

It’s clear from scripture that there’s an INTERVAL OF TIME between the translation of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus. John 14:3. Isaiah 26:20.

ONLY the Pre-Trib Rapture does NOT DIVIDE the Church (Christ’s Body) on a WORKS BASED PRINCIPLE, as does the Partial Rapture. The Pre-Trib Rapture is the GRAND FINALE to our great SALVATION--by GRACE ALONE!

The scriptures are FIRM that the Church is UNDIVIDED--we are ALL members of ONE BODY in Jesus. (It’s in this PRESENT world that the Church is indeed divided by the CONTINUING OLD FLESH NATURE of believers--which results in dissensions and splits. When the Church is GLORIFIED at the Rapture, there will be no more fleshly divisions.)

The Holy Spirit is RESTRAINER of evil in this world. He CANNOT be taken out as prophesied UNLESS THE CHURCH (which is INDWELLED by Him), is taken out, too. The RESTRAINER is the Spirit-filled Church.2 Thessalonians 2:5-8.

The Holy Spirit’s RESTRAINING work MUST be removed BEFORE the “lawless one” is revealed. (The tribulation BEGINS with the SIGNING OF A COVENANT with ISRAEL--which STARTS the 7 years of tribulation. That act REVEALS the antichrist. So therefore, the Church must be Raptured BEFORE the tribulation begins.) The true Church will NOT see the antichrist revealed.

While the tribulation occurs on earth, the antichrist will overcome (and PREVAIL AGAINST) the tribulation saints. Revelation 13:7. But for the Church, the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against us, which PROVES that “the saints” of the tribulation CANNOT be the Church. The Church OVERCOMES by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 16:18. Romans 12:21. 1 John 2:13-14. 1 John 5:4-5. Revelation 2:7, Revelation 2:11,Revelation 2:17, Revelation 2:26, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 3:12, and Revelation 3:21. That’s LOTS of OVERCOMING for the Church! This PROVES the Rapture MUST be Pre-Trib.

In Daniel 7:21 and Daniel 7:25, the little horn (antichrist) made war with the saints and PREVAILED AGAINST them, plus the antichrist will speak great words against the most high and shall WEAR OUT the saints. Again, for the Church, the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against us (or overcome us). Again, the Church CANNOT be the saints in the tribulation who are PREVAILED AGAINST, and OVERCOME! Again, this PROVES the Rapture MUST be Pre-Trib.








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Psalm3704

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Revelation 6:9-11
is the proof that the SOULS of the believers goes to Heaven and on arrival they have full capacity of reasonning until that God place them in a state of rest....as in sleep.

They were not crying anymore after that God said to them that they should REST.... until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Revelation 6:11

Your faulty logic doesn't prove the existence of soul sleep. Besides, the word rest has numerous meaning and when a person is resting, it doesn't always means that person is unconscious. You never rested in-between chores? The soul doesn't sleep, the bodies of the dead is what sleeps.

Riberra, if you get offended so easily, post something biblically consistent with the bible and people will give you "likes" instead of insults on your intelligence. Even dumber is you calling me a troll yet you keep coming back for more.

Another text that you have copied from an internet source: Tst -tst -tst !
250 REASONS FOR PRE-TRIB RAPTURE
http://www.jesusisthecomingking.com/2011/03/250-reasons-for-pre-trib-rapture.html

Oh you're just so innocent as if you never copied and pasted from a website onto this forum before? LIES!!! Your first post ever was a copy and paste off the internet. The proof is still on this forum....Mr. Satanic Deception!

Oh and Riberra, can you post a link to a internet source that provides 250 REASONS FOR THE POST-TRIB RAPTURE?

If you can't, it's okay, we already know it doesn't exist.




















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Riberra

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Your faulty logic doesn't prove the existence of soul sleep. Besides, the word rest has numerous meaning and when a person is resting, it doesn't always means that person is unconscious. You never rested in-between chores? The soul doesn't sleep, the bodies of the dead is what sleeps.

Riberra, if you get offended so easily, post something biblically consistent with the bible and people will give you "likes" instead of insults on your intelligence. Even dumber is you calling me a troll yet you keep coming back for more.
I like trolls they are so funny and uneducated at all level.You are probably not aware of it ,but you are very amusing....
You are very unique of your kind among everything that God have created.

Now,back to serious matter:
I am very consitent with the Scriptures and i have received a like for my post .
I have the impression that you have no soul at all....that may explain many things...like not knowing why the soul makes a human --- different that a monkey who have no soul.

Oh you're just so innocent as if you never copied and pasted from a website onto this forum before? LIES!!! Your first post ever was a copy and paste off the internet. The proof is still on this forum....Mr. Satanic Deception!
As i have said English is not my native language...What have been presented in a better English that i can do ,is the demonstration that that you have been deceived into believing something that will not happen before the tribulation ,nor mid -tribulation ...if you are unable to see that you have been deceived that is your problem not mine...The deception it at its peak among the Protestants type Church of Today...Oh! what a wonderfull feeling provided by that pre-tribulation rapture false doctrine !!!

Have you ever read 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988 ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_C._Whisenant

"Eventually, 300,000 copies of 88 Reasons were mailed free of charge to ministers across America, and 4.5 million copies were sold in bookstores and elsewhere. Whisenant was quoted as saying "Only if the Bible is in error am I wrong; and I say that to every preacher in town" and "f there were a king in this country and I could gamble with my life, I would stake my life on Rosh Hashana 88." [2][3]

Whisenant's predictions were taken seriously in some parts of the evangelical Christian community. As the date approached, regular programming on the Christian Trinity Broadcast Network (TBN) was interrupted to provide special instructions on preparing for the rapture.

When the predicted rapture failed to occur, Whisenant followed up with later books with predictions for various dates in 1989, 1993, and 1994.[4] These books did not sell in quantity. Whisenant continued to issue various rapture predictions through 1997, but gathered little attention."

We can know false prophets and their false doctrines by their failed predictions , mister always waiting for another pre-tribulation prediction that will also fail... like the tethrad red blood moon hype that was prediicting the rapture of the church SOON! in 2014-2015 LOL!.
 
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Straightshot

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My comment

Much writing above ..... banter back and forth


" John 3:13 means that no man but Jesus had ascended into heaven in a way involving his own power."


This writer consistently adds his own rhetoric to many scriptures like "in a way involving his own power"

What a ridiculous statement to make

And there is little understanding about where the dead have gone and reside to this very day

A man is a spirit being intertwined with a physical body .... that is it, there are no other components

Soul and spirit are often confused .... one and the same

"Heaven" is the state of immortality and no man has yet been made immortal ....only the Lord has displayed this transformation

A dead man's spirit knows nothing and is returned to his Maker .... and is not aware of time passing in the material world .... all men are this way until a man awakes [becomes conscious] to either eternal life, or the second death

The Lord will come for His own to awake them and make them immortal .... and He will also call the unbeliever to the second death of his spirit

Those under the alter during the coming tribulation "cry out" how long? .... and it will not be much longer .... the tribulation of the Lord's judgment upon the earth will only last for 2550 days

Their changing to immortality will have to wait until the end of His judgment upon the earth

..... all of the others who have trusted in the Lord's promise before will have already been made immortal

And their "crying out" is a metaphor used for the purpose of reassuring all of the Lord's own that He will make good on His promise .... there are no contradictions in the Lord's Word .... and so this must be

He told the thief on the cross that He would live again and would be made immortal .... and the Lord said "today"

This is because the next conscious moment for the thief just after His physical death will be his awakening to the Lord's call to make him immortal .... and this action of the Lord is still pending as we speak
 
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Riberra

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Those under the alter during the coming tribulation "cry out" how long? .... and it will not be much longer .... the tribulation of the Lord's judgment upon the earth will only last for 2550 days
The SOULS of the martyrs that John saw under the altar of God in Heaven are the EARLY Christians martyrs ....to which it was said that many others will join them...until that God decide that the time is come to advenge their blood Revelation 6:9-11.



The Christians who will be beheaded during the 42 months reign of the Beast will begin to arrive in Heaven only in Revelation 15.


Look at this PDF document about the number of Christians martyrs who have joining them since John saw the vision.
http://www.gordonconwell.edu/ockenga/research/documents/WCT_Martyrs_Extract.pdf


Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
 
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Job8

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ONLY the Pre-Trib Rapture view allows for a TRULY LITERAL INTERPRETATION of the Old and New Testament passages regarding the tribulation.
Amen. The problem is that many simply do not bother to study the OT prophecies in detail and see how they will be fulfilled. And even when they are shown, they will not believe.
 
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Riberra

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Amen. The problem is that many simply do not bother to study the OT prophecies in detail and see how they will be fulfilled. And even when they are shown, they will not believe.
Then, that mean that you should start verifying by yourself all those OT Prophecies in their original context (read the whole chapter) and you will realise that they are all related to the Coming of the Lord to establish His kingdom on the Earth and the destruction of the sinners/unsaved (God's ennemies) at His Coming.None of these OT prophecies talk about a removal of the believers out of the Earth to Heaven before the Tribulation.
 
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