Rapture timing

[Postvieww]

But these contrasts are not the only differences between the unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming. There are also significant differences in various details contained in these prophecies. The best known of these is that Jesus said, “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.” (Matthew 25:13) He also said “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32) But in Daniel 12:9 we read, “Then I said, ‘My lord, what shall be the end of these things?’” In answer, the prophet was told in Daniel 12:11 that “from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.” Now these are diametrically opposed concepts. Even the Lord Jesus Himself (speaking as a man) did not know the day or the hour of His coming. But even as a man He already had the scripture which specifically stated that He would come “one thousand two hundred and ninety days” after “the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up.” Thus we see that these two scriptures speak of different events that take place at different times.
The coming of the Lord in blessing for His own is described in the following words: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)

Although 1 Thessalonians 4:16 plainly says that it is “the Lord Himself” who will come for us, Matthew 24:31 just as plainly says that “He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” In one case, “we” are “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and in the other “His elect.” are gathered by “His angels.”

To understand the significance of this contrast we need to look at Exodus 33, where we read in verses 1-4 that “the LORD said to Moses, ‘Depart and go up from here, you and the people whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt, to the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, “To your descendants I will give it.” And I will send My Angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanite and the Amorite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in your midst, lest I consume you on the way, for you are a stiff-necked people.’ And when the people heard this bad news, they mourned, and no one put on his ornaments.” But in verses 12-17 we read, “Then Moses said to the LORD, ‘See, You say to me, “Bring up this people.” But You have not let me know whom You will send with me. Yet You have said, “I know you by name, and you have also found grace in My sight.” Now therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now Your way, that I may know You and that I may find grace in Your sight. And consider that this nation is Your people.” And He said, ‘My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.’ Then he said to Him, ‘If Your Presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here. For how then will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight, except You go with us? So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all the people who are upon the face of the earth.’ So the LORD said to Moses, ‘I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.’”

Thus we see that the scriptures plainly teach us that there is a significant difference between the presence of the Lord Himself and that of only a mere angel. But one scripture about the future plainly teaches that “we” will be “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and another says “His elect.” are gathered by “His angels.” Again, these scriptures cannot be speaking of the same event.

Again, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 plainly states that when our Lord comes for us we “shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” But when he comes in judgment on the wicked “His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” (Zechariah 14:4) In the first case, He meets His own “in the air.” But in the second case we are expressly told that “His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” Meeting us “In the air” is significantly different from standing “on the Mount of Olives.”

Again, Revelation 1:7 says,“Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.” But 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 says, “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” There is no way that “every eye” could see something that will take place “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.”

Biblewriter said:

But these contrasts are not the only differences between the unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming. There are also significant differences in various details contained in these prophecies. The best known of these is that Jesus said, “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.” (Matthew 25:13) He also said “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32)

Did He say no one would ever know? Have you considered the possibility that once the daily sacrifice was taken away those that were watching and waiting would know? Would this not then line up with Paul’s statement from 1 Thess 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

But in Daniel 12:9 we read, “Then I said, ‘My lord, what shall be the end of these things?’” In answer, the prophet was told in Daniel 12:11 that “from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.” Now these are diametrically opposed concepts. Even the Lord Jesus Himself (speaking as a man) did not know the day or the hour of His coming. But even as a man He already had the scripture which specifically stated that He would come “one thousand two hundred and ninety days” after “the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up.”

Actually it doesn’t say specifically He will come at the moment 1290 days’ end, it says:

Daniel 12: 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The next verse says:

Daniel 12: 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

We have another period of time here and neither says exactly when the Lord will return, that is only assumed.

The next verse says:

Daniel 12: 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Which “hints” at the resurrection, which agrees with what Jesus said about the timing of the resurrection?

Thus we see that these two scriptures speak of different events that take place at different times.

Not necessarily!

Although 1 Thessalonians 4:16 plainly says that it is “the Lord Himself” who will come for us, Matthew 24:31 just as plainly says that “He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” In one case, “we” are “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and in the other “His elect.” are gathered by “His angels.”

Perfect example of dividing up scripture based on differences in wording to get two commings.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Matt 24: 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There are no contradictions in these two passages only perceived ones.

1 Thess. Does not say The lord Himself will gather it says the Lord himself will descend. 1 Thess does not spell out who gathers it doesn’t even mention gather there is no contradiction.

Try looking at the things that are the same rather than looking at the things that appear to be different.

Both passages refer to the Lord’s presence, a trump and a trumpet.

Again all of the coming of the Lord passages will harmonize and never contradict. Some mention details others leave out but they do not contradict!

Again, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 plainly states that when our Lord comes for us we “shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” But when he comes in judgment on the wicked “His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” (Zechariah 14:4) In the first case, He meets His own “in the air.” But in the second case we are expressly told that “His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” Meeting us “In the air” is significantly different from standing “on the Mount of Olives.”

No contradiction here either, only different perspectives. Why can’t His feet touch down after we meet Him in the air?

Again, Revelation 1:7 says,“Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.” But 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 says, “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” There is no way that “every eye” could see something that will take place “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.”

Again no contradiction only different perspectives. The passage doesn’t say every eye will see the resurrection only every eye will see Jesus. Nothing in these two passages is “mutually exclusive”.

Since you make much of this point of differences in wording, explain how 1 Corin 15:51-52 and 1 Thess 4:15-17 are so different in wording, yet I dare say you believe they are the same event.

 

[Postvieww]

Are you aware that Preterists claim that Zechariah 14:4 was fulfilled in the first coming of Christ? There is zero obvious conflict between someone being born of a virgin and that same person standing on the Mount of Olives as it cleaves in two.

The fact that the two comings were never even hinted at in the Old Testament is clearly shown by the fact that even the men that were used by God to give them could not understand the apparent contradiction between these prophecies.

"... the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow." 1 Peter 1:10-11

Biblewriter said:
Are you aware that Preterists claim that Zechariah 14:4 was fulfilled in the first coming of Christ?

I pay little attention to what preterists say.

There is zero obvious conflict between someone being born of a virgin and that same person standing on the Mount of Olives as it cleaves in two.

If the moment Jesus was born his tiny feet hit the Mount of Olives I would agree with you.

The fact that the two comings were never even hinted at in the Old Testament is clearly shown by the fact that even the men that were used by God to give them could not understand the apparent contradiction between these prophecies.

The fact they did not understand answers the question.

"... the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow." 1 Peter 1:10-11

 

[Revealing Times]

Any denial that the rapture will take place is a denial of explicitly stated scripture, and is therefore rank unbelief.

But the timing of the rapture is a legitimate subject for discussion. For ALL positions on the timing of the rapture are based on interpretations of various scriptures. There is simply no scripture that explicitly states the timing of this event.

And MOST differences of opinion on this subject have their roots, not in the scriptures under consideration, but in ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of the words these scriptures use to describe associated topics.

My ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of these words leads me to the conclusion that the rapture takes place before the beginning of Daniel's seventieth week.

Other people make different ASSUMPTIONS about the meaning of these same words. And these ASSUMPTIONS lead them to the conclusion that the rapture takes place at the time the Lord comes in power and glory to judge the wicked.

From another thread:


The error here is an unfounded conclusion that the Lord is only returning one time. There is no scripture anywhere that says this. This conclusion is unfounded because it is based on rank ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of various words used to describe our Lord's return.

Everyone seems to have "their" own belief, I am not here to knock others beliefs, but to attest to my belief/understanding.

1. I believe that Revelation chapter 19, us Saints coming back with Jesus on white horses, while the Beast/Kings and their Armies are still on earth, can not be explained without a rapture of the Church. No one has ever explained to me how that can happen without a rapture.

2. I believe the 70th week or Jacob's trouble is a set time to bring these six things to pass mentioned in Daniel 9:24...to finish the transgression (revolt), and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Israel must end their revolt against God, quit sinning, be atoned by the blood of Jesus, come into the millennial kingdom (everlasting righteousness) all prophecy must be ended/sealed up and the most Holy must be anointed, some say this is the Temple being anointed, some say it is Jesus being anointed as the King of Kings and Lords of Lords, I am in the anointing of Jesus camp. I do not believe the faithful church needs to be tested (works) because our righteousness comes by faith in Jesus.

3. As per the "Second Coming" I can find that term nowhere in the bible, where it is called Second Coming. As a matter of fact, Jesus told Mary not to touch him, for he had not yet ascended to the Father, then eight days later, he told doubting Thomas to put his hands and fingers into his wounds. Jesus has clearly, imho, already returned to earth, the second coming is a misnomer.

 

[Biblewriter]

If the moment Jesus was born his tiny feet hit the Mount of Olives I would agree with you.

If you carefully read Zechariah 14, it does not even hint at the idea that Messiah sets his feet on the mountain at the time he arrives. It only says he does that. So the contradiction with the virgin birth exists only in your mind.

I am not questioning the obvious fact that these scriptures are speaking of entirely different times. I am only pointing out that your claim that these scriptures show an apparent contradiction is simply incorrect.

 

[greenguzzi]

Are you aware that Preterists claim that Zechariah 14:4 was fulfilled in the first coming of Christ?

Hi,
Just thought I'd point out that only hyper-preterists claim this. On the whole, orthodox preterists do not.

 

[Luke17:37]

Everyone seems to have "their" own belief, I am not here to knock others beliefs, but to attest to my belief/understanding.

1. I believe that Revelation chapter 19, us Saints coming back with Jesus on white horses, while the Beast/Kings and their Armies are still on earth, can not be explained without a rapture of the Church. No one has ever explained to me how that can happen without a rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 says "God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus." It goes on to describe the resurrection of the dead in Christ closely followed by the gathering of the surviving saints joining them in the air. I believe it is the souls of the dead in Christ who are raised when He comes back with trumpet blast, etc. (1 Thessalonians 4:16) that are described in Revelation 19 (vs. 1-8, 14). They don't need to have been raptured previously for their souls to be in heaven. They just need to have died in Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4 places the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture (gathering) at Jesus' coming (vs. 16-17). It is explicitly stated that the rapture doesn't precede the resurrection.

Revelation 20:4-6 says the first resurrection is blessed and it will include saints beheaded who don't take the mark of the beast, which is enforced during the last 42 months of the Tribulation (Revelation 13:5, 15-16).

Matthew 24 places the gathering of the elect (rapture) (vs. 31) after the Tribulation (vs. 29) at the return of Christ (vs. 30).

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 says the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him won't happen until after the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin, who makes himself out to be God and is worshiped by everyone except the saints (Revelation 13:4-8). The man of sin will be destroyed at Jesus' coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20).

Does that make sense?

2. I believe the 70th week or Jacob's trouble is a set time to bring these six things to pass mentioned in Daniel 9:24...to finish the transgression (revolt), and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Israel must end their revolt against God, quit sinning, be atoned by the blood of Jesus, come into the millennial kingdom (everlasting righteousness) all prophecy must be ended/sealed up and the most Holy must be anointed, some say this is the Temple being anointed, some say it is Jesus being anointed as the King of Kings and Lords of Lords, I am in the anointing of Jesus camp. I do not believe the faithful church needs to be tested (works) because our righteousness comes by faith in Jesus.

Revelation 2-3 was written to the churches. They still have sins and He implores several to repent (Revelation 2:4-5, 2:16, 2:20-23, 3:3, 3:19).

And He speaks of testing:

Revelation 2:10
10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

1 Peter 4:17 says, "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?"

Testing and trials build character and prove the authenticity of a person's faith.

For example, in Revelation 14 the Church is tested with the mark of the beast. If they take it, they can buy and sell. If they take it, they won't be killed by the kingdom of the beast. If they take it, they will be choosing God's wrath on themselves (Revelation 14:9-11) and essentially (I believe) denouncing their salvation.

Revelation 14:12-13
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

3. As per the "Second Coming" I can find that term nowhere in the bible, where it is called Second Coming. As a matter of fact, Jesus told Mary not to touch him, for he had not yet ascended to the Father, then eight days later, he told doubting Thomas to put his hands and fingers into his wounds. Jesus has clearly, imho, already returned to earth, the second coming is a misnomer.

The phrase "Second coming" isn't in the Bible but "Day of the Lord," "coming," "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ," "the day of Christ" is. Jesus came once in a humble state and died on a cross for sinners and afterwards rose and appeared to many (also ate with them and taught them) before ascending into heaven in view of the disciples. He will surely come again (Acts 1:10).

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Paul writes about people who claimed the resurrection (of the Church) has passed. The resurrection is after His coming (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

2 Timothy 2:17-18
17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

 

[Postvieww]

Everyone seems to have "their" own belief, I am not here to knock others beliefs, but to attest to my belief/understanding.

1. I believe that Revelation chapter 19, us Saints coming back with Jesus on white horses, while the Beast/Kings and their Armies are still on earth, can not be explained without a rapture of the Church. No one has ever explained to me how that can happen without a rapture.

2. I believe the 70th week or Jacob's trouble is a set time to bring these six things to pass mentioned in Daniel 9:24...to finish the transgression (revolt), and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Israel must end their revolt against God, quit sinning, be atoned by the blood of Jesus, come into the millennial kingdom (everlasting righteousness) all prophecy must be ended/sealed up and the most Holy must be anointed, some say this is the Temple being anointed, some say it is Jesus being anointed as the King of Kings and Lords of Lords, I am in the anointing of Jesus camp. I do not believe the faithful church needs to be tested (works) because our righteousness comes by faith in Jesus.

3. As per the "Second Coming" I can find that term nowhere in the bible, where it is called Second Coming. As a matter of fact, Jesus told Mary not to touch him, for he had not yet ascended to the Father, then eight days later, he told doubting Thomas to put his hands and fingers into his wounds. Jesus has clearly, imho, already returned to earth, the second coming is a misnomer.

Revealing Times said:

1. I believe that Revelation chapter 19, us Saints coming back with Jesus on white horses, while the Beast/Kings and their Armies are still on earth, can not be explained without a rapture of the Church. No one has ever explained to me how that can happen without a rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The above passage explains this perfectly. Those that have died and their souls are now in the presence of the Lord will come back with Him to be reunited with their new eternal bodies at His second (next) coming and the resurrection

I do not believe the faithful church needs to be tested (works) because our righteousness comes by faith in Jesus.

Correct our righteousness is through Jesus , But scripture still says in the tribulation many saints will be overcome and killed. Revelation 13:7, Daniel 7:21

3. As per the "Second Coming" I can find that term nowhere in the bible, where it is called Second Coming. As a matter of fact, Jesus told Mary not to touch him, for he had not yet ascended to the Father, then eight days later, he told doubting Thomas to put his hands and fingers into his wounds. Jesus has clearly, imho, already returned to earth, the second coming is a misnomer.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

True, the above verse is as close as it comes to saying “second coming”. There is only one more coming of Christ in scripture in our future.

 

[Postvieww]

If you carefully read Zechariah 14, it does not even hint at the idea that Messiah sets his feet on the mountain at the time he arrives. It only says he does that. So the contradiction with the virgin birth exists only in your mind.

I am not questioning the obvious fact that these scriptures are speaking of entirely different times. I am only pointing out that your claim that these scriptures show an apparent contradiction is simply incorrect.

Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

If you insist I’ll conceded this point on a technicality. What about the other more relevant points you ignore.

 

[Biblewriter]

Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

If you insist I’ll conceded this point on a technicality. What about the other more relevant points you ignore.

All I noticed was points which you interpreted in ways that I see as unreasonable.

 

[Postvieww]

All I noticed was points which you interpreted in ways that I see as unreasonable.

If that's all you considered unreasonable I must have knocked it out of the park!

 

[Revealing Times]

1 Thessalonians 4:14 says "God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus." It goes on to describe the resurrection of the dead in Christ closely followed by the gathering of the surviving saints joining them in the air. I believe it is the souls of the dead in Christ who are raised when He comes back with trumpet blast, etc. (1 Thessalonians 4:16) that are described in Revelation 19 (vs. 1-8, 14). They don't need to have been raptured previously for their souls to be in heaven. They just need to have died in Christ.

The resurrection of the Dead and those that are alive and remain happen at the same time, so that answer solves nothing, Revelation 19 is the marriage of the Church to the Lamb, can anyone explain to me why ALL THE CHURCH is not invited ? I am pretty sure they are..........Is the trumpet a trumpet or a voice of Jesus calling us to Heaven ? Rev.1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia;

1 Thessalonians 4 places the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture (gathering) at Jesus' coming (vs. 16-17). It is explicitly stated that the rapture doesn't precede the resurrection.

TRUE......But we differ on when it happens, I say because of Rev. 19, it has to happen Pre-trib. John in Revelations says this about tribulation. Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (The tribulations mentioned as the Saints going through are not always the Great Tribulation. )

Revelation 20:4-6 says the first resurrection is blessed and it will include saints beheaded who don't take the mark of the beast, which is enforced during the last 42 months of the Tribulation (Revelation 13:5, 15-16).

So the Marriage of the Lamb to the Church has already happened in Rev. 19, so what can these verses in Rev. 20 mean ? It means that those who became Christians/Saints after the Rapture had to die for Christs name (beheaded because the missed the rapture), and nowhere in Rev. 20 does it mention 42 months, because that has already happened, in 20:10 we see Devil is cast into hell, where the Beast and False Prophet await, this is after a 1000 years, the Saints who were beheaded rule with Christ for a 1000 years, not all the Saints who were already married to the Lamb in Chapter 19. The First Resurrection is the resurrection of the LIVING or those under the Blood of Christ Jesus, ALL OF US, at any time. The Second resurrection is the resurrection of the dead.

Matthew 24 places the gathering of the elect (rapture) (vs. 31) after the Tribulation (vs. 29) at the return of Christ (vs. 30).

Actually read it again, I missed it for years, Jesus says we come back from Heaven.......Rev. 19 says we marry the Lamb in Heaven, Matthew 24:31 agrees. 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 says the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him won't happen until after the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin, who makes himself out to be God and is worshiped by everyone except the saints (Revelation 13:4-8). The man of sin will be destroyed at Jesus' coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20).

Actually it doesn't say our gathering together unto him will not happen until after the Man of Sin is revealed, it says the "Second Coming" or as I like to put it the Coming of Christ to destroy the Beast and company, will not happen until after the apostasy, (the Rapture happens between these two) and the "Man of Sin" is Revealed or comes to power. I AGREE, we are Raptured and Jesus does not come back with us Saints (Rev. 19), until after the Anti-Christ COMES TO POWER.

People seem to have trouble reading that text in the Old English KJV, and they seem to invert the meaning. Holman Bible:
The Man of Lawlessness
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: we ask you, brothers,
2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.
3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For [that day] will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

((( So what is Paul actually saying ? Paul is saying, HEY BROTHER Thessalonians, as per the coming of Jesus to Rapture us to Heaven, don't fear [that you have missed it no doubt this is what he meant) that the DAY OF THE LORD (Tribulation or Judgment) is at hand, for before the Day of the Lord comes, FIRST must come apostasy, and then the Anti-Christ. So they were fearing the Day of the Lord/Judgment was upon them, Paul told them Apostasy and the Anti-Christ must come before Judgment. So they had not missed the Rapture or Gathering together unto the Lord. Amen. )))

God Bless brother, I am going to watch a little USA Soccer for awhile.

 

[Luke17:37]

The resurrection of the Dead and those that are alive and remain happen at the same time, so that answer solves nothing, Revelation 19 is the marriage of the Church to the Lamb, can anyone explain to me why ALL THE CHURCH is not invited ? I am pretty sure they are..........Is the trumpet a trumpet or a voice of Jesus calling us to Heaven ? Rev.1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia;


TRUE......But we differ on when it happens, I say because of Rev. 19, it has to happen Pre-trib. John in Revelations says this about tribulation. Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (The tribulations mentioned as the Saints going through are not always the Great Tribulation. )



So the Marriage of the Lamb to the Church has already happened in Rev. 19, so what can these verses in Rev. 20 mean ? It means that those who became Christians/Saints after the Rapture had to die for Christs name (beheaded because the missed the rapture), and nowhere in Rev. 20 does it mention 42 months, because that has already happened, in 20:10 we see Devil is cast into hell, where the Beast and False Prophet await, this is after a 1000 years, the Saints who were beheaded rule with Christ for a 1000 years, not all the Saints who were already married to the Lamb in Chapter 19. The First Resurrection is the resurrection of the LIVING or those under the Blood of Christ Jesus, ALL OF US, at any time. The Second resurrection is the resurrection of the dead.


Actually read it again, I missed it for years, Jesus says we come back from Heaven.......Rev. 19 says we marry the Lamb in Heaven, Matthew 24:31 agrees. 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Actually it doesn't say our gathering together unto him will not happen until after the Man of Sin is revealed, it says the "Second Coming" or as I like to put it the Coming of Christ to destroy the Beast and company, will not happen until after the apostasy, (the Rapture happens between these two) and the "Man of Sin" is Revealed or comes to power. I AGREE, we are Raptured and Jesus does not come back with us Saints (Rev. 19), until after the Anti-Christ COMES TO POWER.

People seem to have trouble reading that text in the Old English KJV, and they seem to invert the meaning. Holman Bible:
The Man of Lawlessness
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: we ask you, brothers,
2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.
3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For [that day] will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

((( So what is Paul actually saying ? Paul is saying, HEY BROTHER Thessalonians, as per the coming of Jesus to Rapture us to Heaven, don't fear [that you have missed it no doubt this is what he meant) that the DAY OF THE LORD (Tribulation or Judgment) is at hand, for before the Day of the Lord comes, FIRST must come apostasy, and then the Anti-Christ. So they were fearing the Day of the Lord/Judgment was upon them, Paul told the Apostasy and the Anti-Christ must come before Judgment. So they had not missed the Rapture or Gathering together unto the Lord.Amen. )))

God Bless brother, I am going to watch a little USA Soccer for awhile.

You asked for an explanation and I gave one.

Revelation 19, 1 Corinthians 15, and 1 Thessalonian 4 all discuss the same thing - the entire Church being married to the Lamb. We will be made holy in His presence. Revelation 19 is not past; it's future. The focus of Revelation 19 starts with the Church praising Christ for avenging them and then focuses on His vengeance towards His enemies (who had shed the blood of his saints).

"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together to Him" and "the day of Christ" are used together and are also referred to as, "that Day" in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. Yes, Paul wanted them to know they didn't miss the gathering (the rapture) because it hasn't happened, and moreover it won't happen until the after apostasy and the Man of Sin (looks like the Beast of the Sea from Revelation 13, based on the blasphemous actions described therein) (so, we haven't missed the rapture, either, and it's still future).

I am like you in not wanting to live in the Tribulation and suffer, but I'm convinced that's coming for the Church. It's good for us to be prepared. Many will fall away (the apostasy). Please don't cling to a pre or mid-Tribulation rapture and try to find Scriptures to justify it. I encourage you to prayerfully study afresh and let God's Word teach you. Wouldn't you prefer to know the truth, even if it isn't the way you would have chosen for yourself?

 

[Revealing Times]

You asked for an explanation and I gave one.

Revelation 19, 1 Corinthians 15, and 1 Thessalonian 4 all discuss the same thing - the entire Church being married to the Lamb. We will be made holy in His presence. Revelation 19 is not past; it's future. The focus of Revelation 19 starts with the Church praising Christ for avenging them and then focuses on His vengeance towards His enemies (who had shed the blood of his saints).

"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together to Him" and "the day of Christ" are used together and are also referred to as, "that Day" in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. Yes, Paul wanted them to know they didn't miss the gathering (the rapture) because it hasn't happened, and moreover it won't happen until the after apostasy and the Man of Sin (looks like the Beast of the Sea from Revelation 13, based on the blasphemous actions described therein) (so, we haven't missed the rapture, either, and it's still future).

I am like you in not wanting to live in the Tribulation and suffer, but I'm convinced that's coming for the Church. It's good for us to be prepared. Many will fall away (the apostasy). Please don't cling to a pre or mid-Tribulation rapture and try to find Scriptures to justify it. I encourage you to prayerfully study afresh and let God's Word teach you. Wouldn't you prefer to know the truth, even if it isn't the way you would have chosen for yourself?

I trust the Holy Spirit has revealed the truth unto me. Just like my post about 2 Thess. 2, I think my reasoning is fairly clear there. I was the type that never clung to beliefs, for 30 years it never mattered to me as a Christian. I decided to study all angles after 30 years, and trust in the Holy Spirit. My way of studying is never to come in with preconceived ideas, nothing I have read is worthy to be trusted, I go by the bible only, and fins all the contradictions, or supposed contradictions, because God never contradict Himself, then I wipe away all the half-truths and come to the truth via the Holy Spirit.

The Post trib just did not stand up, Rev 19 is the first sign of trouble, we are in haven, matty the lamb, come back on white horses, and the Beast and his wicked me are STILL ON EARTH. For this to happen, I knew, via the Spirit of truth, that there has to be a Rapture. Then I sought out all of the post-trib truths, and found out, imho, they are all half-truths.

IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation....Well yes, we Saints in Rev. 19 come back with Jesus, IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Trib. On and On it goes. Just like the 2 Thess. 2 verse above. It just doesn't say what everyone is lead to believe. I point this out, but people just have beliefs, already entrenched, so most just stay put in their beliefs.

That is ok with me, I just explain my beliefs, whatever someone else's believes is their belief. Sleep Time... God Bless

 

[Luke17:37]

I trust the Holy Spirit has revealed the truth unto me. Just like my post about 2 Thess. 2, I think my reasoning is fairly clear there. I was the type that never clung to beliefs, for 30 years it never mattered to me as a Christian. I decided to study all angles after 30 years, and trust in the Holy Spirit. My way of studying is never to come in with preconceived ideas, nothing I have read is worthy to be trusted, I go by the bible only, and fins all the contradictions, or supposed contradictions, because God never contradict Himself, then I wipe away all the half-truths and come to the truth via the Holy Spirit.

The Post trib just did not stand up, Rev 19 is the first sign of trouble, we are in haven, matty the lamb, come back on white horses, and the Beast and his wicked me are STILL ON EARTH. For this to happen, I knew, via the Spirit of truth, that there has to be a Rapture. Then I sought out all of the post-trib truths, and found out, imho, they are all half-truths.

IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation....Well yes, we Saints in Rev. 19 come back with Jesus, IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Trib. On and On it goes. Just like the 2 Thess. 2 verse above. It just doesn't say what everyone is lead to believe. I point this out, but people just have beliefs, already entrenched, so most just stay put in their beliefs.

That is ok with me, I just explain my beliefs, whatever someone else's believes is their belief. Sleep Time... God Bless

We all believe we believe the truth. But God doesn't teach me one truth and another a conflicting truth. Two can believe lies, but otherwise one knows truth and the other a lie. Truth isn't relative.

 

[Bible2+]

Revealing Times said in post 283:

I believe that Revelation chapter 19, us Saints coming back with Jesus on white horses, while the Beast/Kings and their Armies are still on earth, can not be explained without a rapture of the Church. No one has ever explained to me how that can happen without a rapture.

Note that Revelation 19 is Jesus' 2nd coming, which is when other passages show he will rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31). At Jesus' 2nd coming, before he goes to war (Revelation 19:11-21), he will rapture (gather together) the church (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:14-30), and marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-13).

Revealing Times said in post 283:

I believe the 70th week or Jacob's trouble is a set time to bring these six things to pass mentioned in Daniel 9:24...

The time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including both Jews and Gentiles (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation. For believers will be in the tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Revealing Times said in post 283:

I do not believe the faithful church needs to be tested (works) because our righteousness comes by faith in Jesus.

Initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Revealing Times said in post 283:

As per the "Second Coming" I can find that term nowhere in the bible, where it is called Second Coming.

The 2nd coming is also called the 2nd appearing:

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*******

Revealing Times said in post 291:

Revelation 19 is the marriage of the Church to the Lamb . . .

In Revelation 19:7, the church is in the 1st heaven, the sky, for the wedding, and it got there at the post-tribulation rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31).

Revealing Times said in post 291:

. . . can anyone explain to me why ALL THE CHURCH is not invited?

Before the marriage, some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

Revealing Times said in post 291:

Is the trumpet a trumpet or a voice of Jesus calling us to Heaven ? Rev. 1:10

Revelation 1:10b simply means that John the apostle heard a literal voice behind him which sounded only "like" a trumpet. And the next verse shows that this voice was Jesus', telling John to write down what he would see, and send it to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is now western Turkey).

The literal, 2nd-coming trumpet (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52) won't be blown until after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

That is, the trump-of-God resurrection of the church (1 Thessalonians 4:16) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15) is the last-trump resurrection of the church (1 Corinthians 15:52) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And the trump of God/last trump is the trumpet in Matthew 24:31, at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Revealing Times said in post 291:

The tribulations mentioned as the Saints going through are not always the Great Tribulation.

Note that Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jews or Gentiles), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3-4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those (not in hiding) who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

Revealing Times said in post 291:

. . . the Saints who were beheaded rule with Christ for a 1000 years, not all the Saints who were already married to the Lamb in Chapter 19.

Actually, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that only those people in the church who will be beheaded by the Antichrist will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection and reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium. For the 1st resurrection will be the physical resurrection of the dead of the entire church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient person in the church (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

Revealing Times said in post 291:

Paul told them Apostasy and the Anti-Christ must come before Judgment. So they had not missed the Rapture or Gathering together unto the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is most often referred to in order to refute the mistaken idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation coming of Jesus and rapture (gathering together) of the church, which won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-21). But the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 wasn't so much countering pre-tribulation rapturism as he was countering full preterism. Full preterism mistakenly says that the day of the Lord (Christ) is already at hand (2 Thessalonians 2:2), in the sense of already present, that the 2nd coming and rapture have already occurred (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the church is already a present reality (2 Timothy 2:18). Paul was careful to counter full preterism, for it can trouble (2 Thessalonians 2:2) and even overthrow the faith of some believers (2 Timothy 2:18). It can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[Bible2+]

Luke17:37 said in post 292:

I am like you in not wanting to live in the Tribulation and suffer, but I'm convinced that's coming for the Church. It's good for us to be prepared. Many will fall away (the apostasy). Please don't cling to a pre or mid-Tribulation rapture and try to find Scriptures to justify it.

Well said.

For Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), Job first suffered the loss of his wealth and servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14-15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But he remained patient through all his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3) and the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and great-great-grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against him, because he was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when he allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding) and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust him that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

1 Peter 4:12 ¶Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

 

[Postvieww]

The resurrection of the Dead and those that are alive and remain happen at the same time, so that answer solves nothing, Revelation 19 is the marriage of the Church to the Lamb, can anyone explain to me why ALL THE CHURCH is not invited ? I am pretty sure they are..........Is the trumpet a trumpet or a voice of Jesus calling us to Heaven ? Rev.1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia;


TRUE......But we differ on when it happens, I say because of Rev. 19, it has to happen Pre-trib. John in Revelations says this about tribulation. Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (The tribulations mentioned as the Saints going through are not always the Great Tribulation. )



So the Marriage of the Lamb to the Church has already happened in Rev. 19, so what can these verses in Rev. 20 mean ? It means that those who became Christians/Saints after the Rapture had to die for Christs name (beheaded because the missed the rapture), and nowhere in Rev. 20 does it mention 42 months, because that has already happened, in 20:10 we see Devil is cast into hell, where the Beast and False Prophet await, this is after a 1000 years, the Saints who were beheaded rule with Christ for a 1000 years, not all the Saints who were already married to the Lamb in Chapter 19. The First Resurrection is the resurrection of the LIVING or those under the Blood of Christ Jesus, ALL OF US, at any time. The Second resurrection is the resurrection of the dead.


Actually read it again, I missed it for years, Jesus says we come back from Heaven.......Rev. 19 says we marry the Lamb in Heaven, Matthew 24:31 agrees. 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Actually it doesn't say our gathering together unto him will not happen until after the Man of Sin is revealed, it says the "Second Coming" or as I like to put it the Coming of Christ to destroy the Beast and company, will not happen until after the apostasy, (the Rapture happens between these two) and the "Man of Sin" is Revealed or comes to power. I AGREE, we are Raptured and Jesus does not come back with us Saints (Rev. 19), until after the Anti-Christ COMES TO POWER.

People seem to have trouble reading that text in the Old English KJV, and they seem to invert the meaning. Holman Bible:
The Man of Lawlessness
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: we ask you, brothers,
2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.
3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For [that day] will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

((( So what is Paul actually saying ? Paul is saying, HEY BROTHER Thessalonians, as per the coming of Jesus to Rapture us to Heaven, don't fear [that you have missed it no doubt this is what he meant) that the DAY OF THE LORD (Tribulation or Judgment) is at hand, for before the Day of the Lord comes, FIRST must come apostasy, and then the Anti-Christ. So they were fearing the Day of the Lord/Judgment was upon them, Paul told them Apostasy and the Anti-Christ must come before Judgment. So they had not missed the Rapture or Gathering together unto the Lord. Amen. )))

God Bless brother, I am going to watch a little USA Soccer for awhile.

Revealing Times said:

Actually it doesn't say our gathering together unto him will not happen until after the Man of Sin is revealed, it says the "Second Coming" or as I like to put it the Coming of Christ to destroy the Beast and company, will not happen until after the apostasy, (the Rapture happens between these two)

Complete opinion not found in the text of this passage.

and the "Man of Sin" is Revealed or comes to power. I AGREE, we are Raptured and Jesus does not come back with us Saints (Rev. 19),

Those that come back with Jesus are those souls in 1 Thessalonians 4:14, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him” not a "raptured church". He comes back to gather the church at the ressurrection.

until after the Anti-Christ COMES TO POWER.

Actually it does say our gathering will not happen until after the man of sin is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

These are one in the same event. There absolutely no justification in the text to make this 2 events 7 years apart.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ is the same day as the coming and gathering in verse 1. Verse 1 sets the context of this entire passage. It is Christ’s coming and our gathering which is the day of Christ!

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That day referred to here is that same day of Christ which is His coming and our gathering!

People seem to have trouble reading that text in the Old English KJV, and they seem to invert the meaning. Holman Bible:

It is you that have inverted the meaning.

The Man of Lawlessness

1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: we ask you, brothers,

2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.

3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For [that day] will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.


((( So what is Paul actually saying ? Paul is saying, HEY BROTHER Thessalonians, as per the coming of Jesus to Rapture us to Heaven,

You have inserted your preconceived belief into your interpretation of this passage. No one in this passage is “raptured to Heaven”.

don't fear [that you have missed it no doubt this is what he meant) that the DAY OF THE LORD (Tribulation or Judgment) is at hand,

Now you have inserted your interpretation of “day of the Lord” here to mean tribulation and judgement when the passage clearly says “the day of Christ” is His coming and our gathering verse 1&2.

for before the Day of the Lord (day of Christ, which is our gathering at His coming verse 1&2) comes, FIRST must come apostasy, and then the Anti-Christ. So they were fearing the Day of the Lord/Judgment was upon them, (they were concerned they had missed His coming and the gathering on the day of Christ verse 1 & 2 this is what the text says) Paul told them Apostasy and the Anti-Christ must come before Judgment. ( that is not what he said, he said the coming of the Lord and the gathering will not come before the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin, “that day” inserted by the translators refers back to the coming, the gathering , which is the day of Christ)

So they had not missed the Rapture or Gathering together unto the Lord. Amen. )))

Correct they had not missed the gathering!

You have completely ignored the clear wording of this text and inserted your own opinion and interpretation to make it say opposite of what it actually says.

 

[Psalm3704]

Revealing Times said:

Actually it doesn't say our gathering together unto him will not happen until after the Man of Sin is revealed, it says the "Second Coming" or as I like to put it the Coming of Christ to destroy the Beast and company, will not happen until after the apostasy, (the Rapture happens between these two)

Complete opinion not found in the text of this passage.

No, this is not his opinion. It's clearly stated in the bible exactly as he said. I've even shown you what "that Day" is myself and still you continue to deny the bible.

That Day spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to Christ's coming in judgement mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10.

All translations in the links below say "that day" in 2 Thessalonians 1:10, some translations like the ones below below even used an upper case "D" in "that Day" specifically implying that day as the day Christ comes in vengeance in flaming fire to judge the world with wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:8-10).

That day in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is clearly not the rapture. Paul spoke of the rapture in the book of 1st Thessalonians. The book of 2nd Thessalonians is about the second coming. Two books, His coming is clearly in two stages.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-2:3 New King James Version (NKJV)

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,





2 Thessalonians 1:8-2:3 Good News Translation (GNT)

8 with a flaming fire, to punish those who reject God and who do not obey the Good News about our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from his glorious might, 10 when he comes on that Day to receive glory from all his people and honor from all who believe. You too will be among them, because you have believed the message that we told you. 11 That is why we always pray for you. We ask our God to make you worthy of the life he has called you to live. May he fulfill by his power all your desire for goodness and complete your work of faith. 12 In this way the name of our Lord Jesus will receive glory from you, and you from him, by the grace of our God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to be with him: I beg you, my friends, 2 not to be so easily confused in your thinking or upset by the claim that the Day of the Lord has come. Perhaps it is thought that we said this while prophesying or preaching, or that we wrote it in a letter. 3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until the final Rebellion takes place and the Wicked One appears, who is destined to hell.


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20thes%201%3A8-2%3A3&version=NKJV;GNT


2 Thessalonians 1:10 (CJB) On destruction, far away from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might. that Day, when he comes to be glorified by his holy people and admired by all who have trusted, you will be among them, because you trusted our witness to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (CJB) Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom.



2 Thessalonians 1:10 (TMB) when He shall come on that Day to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (TMB) Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-thessalonians/1-10-compare.html

http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-thessalonians/2-3-compare.html


You people need to stop falsely using this scripture to promote a post-trib rapture.










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[vinsight4u]

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