Rapture timing

[Biblewriter]

Any denial that the rapture will take place is a denial of explicitly stated scripture, and is therefore rank unbelief.

But the timing of the rapture is a legitimate subject for discussion. For ALL positions on the timing of the rapture are based on interpretations of various scriptures. There is simply no scripture that explicitly states the timing of this event.

And MOST differences of opinion on this subject have their roots, not in the scriptures under consideration, but in ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of the words these scriptures use to describe associated topics.

My ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of these words leads me to the conclusion that the rapture takes place before the beginning of Daniel's seventieth week.

Other people make different ASSUMPTIONS about the meaning of these same words. And these ASSUMPTIONS lead them to the conclusion that the rapture takes place at the time the Lord comes in power and glory to judge the wicked.

From another thread:

There are dozens of examples of Bible Scripture that explicitly state the Rapture comes at the return of Christ, and not one second before. Read 1 Thess. 4:16. It says the Rapture of the "dead and the living" does not occur, until the Lord himself "descends from the heavens" at the Second Coming. The Parable of the Tares says the tares will be gathered up FIRST and cast into the fire, and the angels will be the reapers at the end of the age, (Matthew 13:30). The Revelation gives the exact same chronology of events, the Wrath of God (Rev.14,15,16) proceeds the Second Coming (Rev.19) and the Resurrection of the Dead (Rev. 20:4-6). Nowhere in the Revelation is there ANY description of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

How can anyone who has read these Scriptures claim they do not directly contradict a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Doctrine ?!

The error here is an unfounded conclusion that the Lord is only returning one time. There is no scripture anywhere that says this. This conclusion is unfounded because it is based on rank ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of various words used to describe our Lord's return.

 

[JM]

There are dozens of examples of Bible Scripture that explicitly state the Rapture comes at the return of Christ, and not one second before. Read 1 Thess. 4:16. It says the Rapture of the "dead and the living" does not occur, until the Lord himself "descends from the heavens" at the Second Coming. The Parable of the Tares says the tares will be gathered up FIRST and cast into the fire, and the angels will be the reapers at the end of the age, (Matthew 13:30). The Revelation gives the exact same chronology of events, the Wrath of God (Rev.14,15,16) proceeds the Second Coming (Rev.19) and the Resurrection of the Dead (Rev. 20:4-6). Nowhere in the Revelation is there ANY description of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

How can anyone who has read these Scriptures claim they do not directly contradict a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Doctrine ?!

Good post. Clear and directly to the point.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[BadHabit]

I'll get my popcorn and watch this thread descend into a cat fight. Rapture debate is the Christian version of Thunderdome.

 

[AlasBabylon]

Stephen583 said:

There are dozens of examples of Bible Scripture that explicitly state the Rapture comes at the return of Christ, and not one second before. Read 1 Thess. 4:16. It says the Rapture of the "dead and the living" does not occur, until the Lord himself "descends from the heavens" at the Second Coming. The Parable of the Tares says the tares will be gathered up FIRST and cast into the fire, and the angels will be the reapers at the end of the age, (Matthew 13:30). The Revelation gives the exact same chronology of events, the Wrath of God (Rev.14,15,16) proceeds the Second Coming (Rev.19) and the Resurrection of the Dead (Rev. 20:4-6). Nowhere in the Revelation is there ANY description of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

How can anyone who has read these Scriptures claim they do not directly contradict a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Doctrine ?!

From my point of view... the interesting thing is... until recently I never heard of the term "rapture" being used
for the resurrection of the dead and translation of the living that happens when Christ returns.

"Rapture" always referred to the nutty false doctrine that Christ would first come secretly before His second coming
to remove Christians so they would not go through the tribulation. That is nutty because God's tribulation is for the
benefit of God's people... to test them, purge away the dross and purify them in the fire. And the biggest irony is...
the worldly lukewarm end of the age Christians who think they will escape God's tribulation... are the very ones who
need tribulation the most.

Christ said the world will hate you because it hated Me. Millions of holy martyrs have withstood the trial of their faith...
suffering and dying for Christ. The end time lukewarm compromising Christians who want to be popular and loved by the
world and think they are exempt from God's discipline... should read Hebrews 12:4-8.

.

 

[Razare]

I agree about the multiple returns of Christ, once he returns in a cloud in the air, not touching foot immediately on Earth, and then he later touches foot on Earth. The first is the redemption of Abraham's stars of heaven prophesied by God who are the church, and the later is the redemption of the sand, who are the lineage of Israel (Jacob).

I personally interpret that there are scriptures that symbolically give you a timing for the rapture. Certainly not a day and an hour (that I have yet discovered), but a season or window of timing.

Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. ... Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. - Matthew 24:32-34

To learn a lesson from a fig tree, you would have to know what a fig tree is in Bible symbolism. It represents the people of Jacob, who are Israel. Ezekiel prophesies these branches coming forth to bear fruit in Ezekiel 36:

8 But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come. 9 For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown. 10 I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. - Ezekiel 36:8

The farthest out a Biblical generation might go is the lifetime given to men which is 120 years. And so something like 1967 + 120 years = 2087.

If we get 7 years past 2087, I imagine there will be a lot of people disappointed in their interpretation of scripture.

In my view, that's the range of timing, now until 2087, but then God's timing is always subject to the failures of men. If the church fails in its end-days ministry, then we have an issue, and how that issue is resolved, I do not know.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Biblewriter]

"Rapture" always referred to the nutty false doctrine that Christ would first come secretly before His second coming
to remove Christians so they would not go through the tribulation. That is nutty because God's tribulation is for the
benefit of God's people... to test them, purge away the dross and purify them in the fire. And the biggest irony is...
the worldly lukewarm end of the age Christians who think they will escape God's tribulation... are the very ones who
need tribulation the most.

The scriptures show that the purpose of Daniel's seventieth week (the period that people commonly call "the tribulation) is to bring Israel to repentance. And they clearly state that this program will be successful. They do not even so much as imply that its purpose is to purify the church.

This theory that the tribulation is intended to purify the church has its roots in serious bad doctrine. For our purification was completed in the blood that our perfect sacrifice, our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, shed on the cross. And any doctrine that casts even a shadow on the perfect completion of His sacrifice, attacks the very foundation of "the faith once delivered to the saints."

 

[Hazrus]

Biblewriter, perhaps I am slow... What do you define as "rapture"? Is it the Lord taking believers before some tribulation time, a la Left Behind?

Or do you mean that He will take His people away from Judgement?

 

[Biblewriter]

The rapture is a term for the event in which the Lord takes His people to Himself, to be with Him forever.

Some say this will take place before the beginning of Daniel's seventieth week. (The period generally called "the tribulation.") This position is called pre-trib.

Some say it will take place at the middle of Daniel's seventieth week. This position is called mid-trib.

Some say it will take place near the end of Daniel's seventieth week, (either 45 days or 75 days before the Lord returns in power and glory. I have run across both numbers for this position.) This position is called pre-wrath.

Others say it will take place at the time the Lord comes in power and glory. This position is called post-trib.

Adherents of each of these positions interpret various scriptures to prove their position.

Some say it will not happen. This position is rank unbelief, because it denies explicitly stated scripture.

 

[greenguzzi]

Any denial that the rapture will take place is a denial of explicitly stated scripture, and is therefore rank unbelief.

Well seeing as you haven't defined "rapture" then I guess it's hard to disagree because the statement is meaningless. However if you mean the popular "left behind" notion, then no - it's not scriptural.
As you probably know "rapture" simply means "to be caught up".
As for when; we know from 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that it will be when the "Lord Himself [descends] from heaven".

 

[Hazrus]

If I believe that we will be taken to the Lord on the Day of Judgement, is that a "rapture"? Here in Australia we don't use the term rapture much.

 

[Bob Crowley]

There's going to be a Second Coming, and that's it - end of show., universe wound up, with the Final Judgment taking place.

As for timing, Christ made it clear that no-one knows the hour, not even the Son ie. Himself.

No rapture, no window of timing, just once and for all, at a time only the Father knows.

As one Catholic writer put it - http://www.integratedcatholiclife.org/2012/09/deacon-bickerstaff-four-last-things-judgment/

The Universal Judgment At the end of time, when Christ returns, all the sins of each person will be revealed for all to know. Theologians call this the Universal Judgment. Some refer to this as the final or general judgment.

 

[Biblewriter]

There's going to be a Second Coming, and that's it - end of show., universe wound up, with the Final Judgment taking place.

As for timing, Christ made it clear that no-one knows the hour, not even the Son ie. Himself.

No rapture, no window of timing, just once and for all, at a time only the Father knows.

As one Catholic writer put it - http://www.integratedcatholiclife.org/2012/09/deacon-bickerstaff-four-last-things-judgment/

The Bible tells a very different story:


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:4-15

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Biblewriter]

There were many prophecies that foretold the first coming of Jesus. These prophecies included not only where He would be born, but even when He would come. But the vast bulk of the Biblical scholars of Jesus’ day totally missed most of these prophecies. They missed them because they concentrated only on passages that spoke of Him as the glorious conquering Messiah, such as, “Gird Your sword upon Your thigh, O Mighty One, With Your glory and Your majesty. And in Your majesty ride prosperously because of truth, humility, and righteousness; And Your right hand shall teach You awesome things. Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the King’s enemies; The peoples fall under You.” (Psalm 45:3-5) They completely neglected other passages that spoke of Him in a completely different light, like “He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.” (Isaiah 53:7-8)

They should have noticed the contrast between such passages. The Holy Spirit told us that the prophets who uttered them noticed it. “Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.” (1 Peter 1:10-11) But these ancient scholars loved prophecies about Israel’s future glory, so they concentrated on them, neglecting the equally important prophecies about how their deliverer would suffer. Now that the suffering is over, and the rest of the Holy Scriptures have been given to us, we realize that these prophecies spoke of the same Messiah, but at different times.

Even so, many scholars of our own day neglect similar differences in various unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming. Some of these prophecies speak of His coming as a wonderful thing, full of blessing. Others speak of it as a horrible thing, full of terror. Even as the ancient scholars missed the many differences between the prophecies about His suffering and those about His glory, many modern scholars miss many similar differences between prophecies about His coming in blessing for His own, and prophecies about His coming in judgment on the wicked. Even as the earlier prophecies spoke of the same Messiah, but at different times, these unfulfilled prophecies speak of the same coming Christ, but at different times.

Isaiah 13:9 describes “the day of the Lord” as “Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger.” Jeremiah 46:10 calls it “A day of vengeance, That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries.” Joel 2:11 says that “the day of the Lord is great and very terrible;” adding, “Who can endure it?” Malachi 3:2 expands this by saying “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderers’ soap.” And Amos 5:18-20 says “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord! For what good is the day of the Lord to you? It will be darkness, and not light. It will be as though a man fled from a lion, And a bear met him! Or as though he went into the house, Leaned his hand on the wall, And a serpent bit him! Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?” So we see that “the day of the Lord” is a “cruel” “day of vengeance,” a time so terrible that it can not be endured, that no one can stand when the Lord appears, and that there is “no brightness” in “the day of the Lord.” This is reinforced by Joel 2:1-2, where we read that “For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand: A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.”

This statement of “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord” (Amos 5:18) stands in stark contrast with the statement of 2 Timothy 4:8 that the Lord will give “the crown of righteousness” to all who “have loved His appearing.” One scripture very clearly states God’s displeasure with anyone desiring “the day of the Lord,” and another scripture just as clearly states his pleasure with those who “have loved His appearing.” This, in and by itself, should show any serious student of the scriptures that these scriptures are speaking of two different events.

The first question in Malachi 3:2, “who can endure the day of His coming?” is radically different from the exhortation in 1 John 2:28, where we read, “And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.” One scripture clearly shows that no one “can endure the day of His coming,” while another scripture just as clearly shows that it is possible to “have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.” Again, these scriptures cannot be speaking of the same future day.

The second question in Malachi 3:2, “who can stand when He appears?” is radically different from the exhortation in Luke 21:36 to “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” As we noticed before, one scripture clearly shows that no one “can stand when He appears,” while another tells us to “pray that you may be counted worthy... to stand before the Son of Man.” Are we to imagine that our God exhorted us to pray for something that could not happen? Or do we realize that these two scriptures refer to two different future times.

Again, we have noticed that Joel 2:2 says that “the day of the Lord” is “A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,” and Amos 5:20 says, “ Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?” These stand in stark contrast to the exhortation in Titus 2:13 that we should be “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.” One scripture very clearly teaches that the gloominess of “the day of the Lord” will be so great that there will be “no brightness in it.” While another scripture says his “glorious appearing” is our “blessed hope.” These scriptures cannot be describing the same event.

 

[Biblewriter]

But these contrasts are not the only differences between the unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming. There are also significant differences in various details contained in these prophecies. The best known of these is that Jesus said, “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.” (Matthew 25:13) He also said “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32) But in Daniel 12:9 we read, “Then I said, ‘My lord, what shall be the end of these things?’” In answer, the prophet was told in Daniel 12:11 that “from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.” Now these are diametrically opposed concepts. Even the Lord Jesus Himself (speaking as a man) did not know the day or the hour of His coming. But even as a man He already had the scripture which specifically stated that He would come “one thousand two hundred and ninety days” after “the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up.” Thus we see that these two scriptures speak of different events that take place at different times.
The coming of the Lord in blessing for His own is described in the following words: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)

Although 1 Thessalonians 4:16 plainly says that it is “the Lord Himself” who will come for us, Matthew 24:31 just as plainly says that “He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” In one case, “we” are “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and in the other “His elect.” are gathered by “His angels.”

To understand the significance of this contrast we need to look at Exodus 33, where we read in verses 1-4 that “the LORD said to Moses, ‘Depart and go up from here, you and the people whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt, to the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, “To your descendants I will give it.” And I will send My Angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanite and the Amorite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in your midst, lest I consume you on the way, for you are a stiff-necked people.’ And when the people heard this bad news, they mourned, and no one put on his ornaments.” But in verses 12-17 we read, “Then Moses said to the LORD, ‘See, You say to me, “Bring up this people.” But You have not let me know whom You will send with me. Yet You have said, “I know you by name, and you have also found grace in My sight.” Now therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now Your way, that I may know You and that I may find grace in Your sight. And consider that this nation is Your people.” And He said, ‘My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.’ Then he said to Him, ‘If Your Presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here. For how then will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight, except You go with us? So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all the people who are upon the face of the earth.’ So the LORD said to Moses, ‘I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.’”

Thus we see that the scriptures plainly teach us that there is a significant difference between the presence of the Lord Himself and that of only a mere angel. But one scripture about the future plainly teaches that “we” will be “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and another says “His elect.” are gathered by “His angels.” Again, these scriptures cannot be speaking of the same event.

Again, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 plainly states that when our Lord comes for us we “shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” But when he comes in judgment on the wicked “His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” (Zechariah 14:4) In the first case, He meets His own “in the air.” But in the second case we are expressly told that “His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” Meeting us “In the air” is significantly different from standing “on the Mount of Olives.”

Again, Revelation 1:7 says,“Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.” But 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 says, “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” There is no way that “every eye” could see something that will take place “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.”

 

[Biblewriter]

All these are indeed material differences between various unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming But there is one that overshadows all the rest of them. In the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-12) we read that “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” (Matthew 25:10-12) here we plainly see the righteous taken into the Lord’s presence while the wicked are left outside a door that remains closed in spite of their pleading. But that is not all that we see here. The word “afterward” in this parable indicates a delay between the time when “they that were ready went in with him” and the time when “other virgins came also.” This is significant because it indicates that the “other virgins” were not removed until after the time when “they that were ready went in with him.”

But in the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30) we read that at the time of harvest the owner of the field will say, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” (Matthew 13:30) The word “first” in this command clearly indicates that the wicked are gathered before the righteous. Now this order of events is exactly the opposite of the order indicated in Matthew 25. (And yes, the words “afterward” and “first” are in the Greek text of these parables.) The contrast between these orders of events clearly indicates that the two parables are speaking of two different events that take place at different times.

In the explanation of the parable in Matthew 13, (Matthew 13:37-43) Jesus said this meant that “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. ” (Matthew 13:41-43) He then added that “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:47-50)

This is again radically different from the scene presented in Matthew 25. In Matthew 13, the wicked are taken “from among the just.” In Matthew 25, the just are taken from among the wicked. In Matthew 13, the wicked are removed and cast into the fire. In Matthew 25, the wicked are left where they are, but are given no further chance to repent.

This fact that they are given no further chance to repent is stressed in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, where we read that “The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” The reason for this is distinctly stated. God will do this as a punishment “because they did not receive the love of the truth,” that is, because they did not wish to know the truth. This awful punishment is because, instead of receiving the truth, they “had pleasure in unrighteousness.” Nor is this only stated in the New Testament. We see it again in the last chapter of Isaiah, where we read, “Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations, So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight.” (Isaiah 66:3-4) So the scriptures clearly teach that there is a time coming in which those who had previously rejected the gospel will have no more chance to repent. This is in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:10 that “the door was shut” after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.” It is also in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:11-12 that “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” This parable clearly shows that there will be those that seek a relationship with the bridegroom after He has come. But at that time it will be too late. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 clearly states that at that time, those that had previously rejected God’s word will be turned over to believe “the lie.” And Isaiah 66:3-4 just as clearly states that at that time God “will choose their delusions.” The time being spoken of here is plainly the time we call the tribulation. But it takes place after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.”

 

[Biblewriter]

Again we read in John 14:2-3, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” But we also read in 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.”

In the first of these, our Lord says “I will come again, and receive you to myself.” In the second, we read of “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” In the first passage He comes to receive His own to Himself. In the second one He comes with them, for He comes “with all His saints.” If He is going to come for His own and He is also going to come with them, He has to come for them before He can come with them. This is a simple matter of the meaning of words. No other interpretation is possible. These two scriptures, in and by themselves, do not indicate how long the delay between these two events might be, but they clearly indicate that they occur in sequence. Many imagine that this sequence is simply that He meets us on the way down, and then continues on down to the mount of Olives to execute judgment on the wicked. But this interpretation does not fit the rest of the scriptures.

Looking again at John 14:2-3, we read, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
In this scripture, our Lord first refers to His Father’s house, saying “In my Father’s house are many mansions.” He then says that he is going “to prepare a place for you.” From this statement it is plain that the place to which He was going “to prepare a place for you” was His “Father’s house.” But He said He was going there “to prepare a place for you” He was going to His “Father’s house,” “to prepare a place for you.” And that is the place from which he “will come again, and receive you unto myself.” But what is the purpose of this coming? “That where I am, there ye may be also.” This scripture does not present a picture of coming, picking us up along the way, and taking us with Himself to another place. It presents a picture of coming to get us and taking us back to where he came from, that is, His “Father’s house.” That is where He has gone “to prepare a place” for us. That is where He is, and that is where he will take us, for the stated purpose of this coming is “that where I am, there you may be also.”

But the purpose of His coming “with all His saints” is entirely different, for we read in Jude 14-15, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” (Jude 14-15) The purpose of the first coming is to “receive you unto myself.” The purpose of the second coming is “to execute judgement on all.”

 

[Biblewriter]

We have seen that comparing John 14:2-3 and 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 makes it clear that there is a delay between these two events, but does not indicate how long that delay will be. Other scriptures give an indication of how long this will be. The most significant of these is “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” (Revelation 3:10) The Greek word translated from in this passage is ek (word number 1537 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary.) Strong defines this word as follows: “A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote)” Thayer defines it as “out of, from, by, away from.” Other Greek references give similar definitions. In addition to the NKJV version of the Bible, which we are using, we find the same rendering of this Greek word in the KJV, the ASV, the CEV, the ESV, the HCSB, the NASB, the NLT, the NRSV, the RSV, and the TEV versions of the Bible and the ISVNT version of the New Testament. Some pretend that in this passage, ek actually means through, in, or during, but in the face of such strong evidence, such a claim is hard to defend.

In addition, we need to take into account what we were promised to be kept from. The promise was, “I... will keep you from the hour of trial.” There is a coming “hour of trial.” But these who “have kept” our Lord’s “command to persevere”will be kept “from,” that is, out of, that “hour.” We are not promised that we will be kept out of the trial, but out of the “hour,” that is, the time, in which this trial will take place.

This “hour of trial” “shall come upon the whole world.” the Greek word translated whole here is holos (word number 3650 in Strong’s Greek dictionary.) Strong defines this word as follows: “A primary word; ‘whole; or ‘all’, that is, complete (in extent, amount, time or degree), especially (neuter) as noun or adverb.” Thayer defines it simply as “all, whole, completely.” There can be no question that in this passage, this Greek word means the entire world, all of it, not just part of it. This “hour of trial”, that is, this time of testing, “shall come upon the whole world.” But the Lord’s own are promised to be kept out of it. This shows us that the delay between the Lord’s coming for his own and his coming with them is at least as long as this “hour of trial,” for if it “shall come upon the whole world” but we are kept out of it, our removal from the world has to before that “hour of trial.”

Again, in the order of events in Revelation 19, we see the marriage of the lamb in verses 7-8, “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.” Then, after that, we see the Lord going forth out of heaven as the mighty conqueror, followed by the armies of heaven in verses 11-16 “Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.” This sequence of events clearly shows the church, the bride of Christ, already in heaven before the Lord comes in power and glory to judge the world. But it does not just show that. It clearly shows the armies proceeding out of heaven with the Lord “clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” But it had just told us, only six verses earlier, that “the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.” This is conclusive proof that the saints will already be in heaven before the Lord comes to judge the world.

Now many produce various arguments to prove that this conclusion is incorrect. But essentially every argument they produce is one that fails to take into account the marked differences between the scriptures about our Lord’s coming in vengeance to judge the world and his coming in blessing to receive His own to Himself. Many insist that there is no such distinction. But as we have seen, there are numerous such distinctions, and that in some cases they are very extreme. There is no logical conclusion except that these distinctions indicate that the unfulfilled prophecies about the future coming of Christ follow the precedent established in the Old Testament scriptures of showing, even though not stating, that there would be more than one such future coming.