rapture question

[Bible2]

Bible2 had quoted from Exodus 12:48-49.
---
A Brother In Christ replied in post #118:
so they became a aprostletyle ... 2nd class citzen
within the Jews

I do know this ...they were saved but not equals even
then

Now we are equal .. thus the Good news in the
ephesians

Under the Old Covenant, believing Gentiles who got
circumcised and kept the law weren't second class
citizens in Israel, but were equal to the Israelites
under the law, and were to be considered and loved
by the Israelites as if they had been born in Israel:

"One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the
stranger that sojourneth with you" (Numbers 15:16).

"The stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto
you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as
thyself" (Leviticus 19:34).

But none of this applied to the Gentiles who were
uncircumcised or didn't keep the Old Covenant law;
that's who Paul is referring to when he says:

"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past
Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision
by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh
made by hands; That at that time ye were without
Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise, having
no hope, and without God in the world" (Ephesians
2:11-12).

Now, under the New Covenant, believing Gentiles who
are uncircumcised and don't keep the Old Covenant law
are no longer separated from Israel, for the very
Old Covenant law that separated them as if by a wall
in Old Testament times was broken down by Christ:

"Now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off
are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our
peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down
the middle wall of partition between us; Having
abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of
commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in
himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And
that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by
the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came
and preached peace to you which were afar off, and
to them that were nigh. For through him we both have
access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore
ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but
fellowcitizens with the saints" (Ephesians 2:13-19).

Bible2 had said: [In Old Testament times,
circumcised] Gentiles could even pray at the temple
and have their prayers answered by God ...
2 Chronicles 6:32-33
---
A Brother In Christ replied in post #118:
they were not allowed inside the temple at all ...
Jews could go to the outer court ... priest could go
to the Holiess but one the High priest could go in
the presence of God once a year .... we can be in His
presence every moment heb 4:16

While circumcised Gentiles couldn't actually go
inside the temple, that wasn't a restriction placed
on them because they were Gentiles, but because they
weren't priests; that restriction was placed on all
Israelites who weren't priests. Circumcised Gentiles,
like the Jews who weren't priests, could go to the
temple and pray before it and have their sacrifices
offered by the priests, and have their prayers
answered by God:

"Is it not written, My house shall be called of all
nations the house of prayer?" (Mark 11:17).

"The sons of the stranger, that join themselves to
the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the
LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the
sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my
covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their
burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be
accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be
called an house of prayer for all people"
(Isaiah 56:6-7).

"Concerning a stranger, that is not of thy people
Israel, but cometh out of a far country for thy
name's sake; (For they shall hear of thy great name,
and of thy strong hand, and of thy stretched out
arm) when he shall come and pray toward this house;
Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do
according to all that the stranger calleth to thee
for: that all people of the earth may know thy name,
to fear thee, as do thy people Israel; and that they
may know that this house, which I have builded, is
called by thy name" (1 Kings 8:41-43).

Regarding your reference to Hebrews 4:16:

"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of
grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to
help in time of need" (Hebrews 4:16).

This is like what the Old Testament saints, whether
Jewish or Gentile, did when they came boldly to the
temple containing the mercy seat above which God's
presence was, where He met with Moses: "I will
commune with thee from above the mercy seat" (Exodus
25:22); "He heard the voice of one speaking unto him
from off the mercy seat" (Numbers 7:89); and where
the high priest would sprinkle blood once a year: "As
he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it
upon the mercy seat" (Leviticus 16:15). But no one
but Moses or the high priest could physically go into
the Holy of Holies and see the mercy seat with their
own eyes, even though they boldly approached it in
their hearts by coming to the temple, or by just
facing in the direction of the temple and thinking
about the temple and its mercy seat as they prayed
anywhere on the earth:

"If they bethink themselves in the land whither they
are carried captive, and turn and pray unto thee in
the land of their captivity, saying, We have sinned,
we have done amiss, and have dealt wickedly; If they
return to thee with all their heart and with all
their soul in the land of their captivity, whither
they have carried them captives, and pray toward
their land, which thou gavest unto their fathers,
and toward the city which thou hast chosen, and
toward the house which I have built for thy name:
Then hear thou from the heavens, even from thy
dwelling place, their prayer and their supplications,
and maintain their cause, and forgive thy people
which have sinned against thee" (2 Chronicles
6:37-39).

It's the same way with us today; we don't physically
go into the temple in heaven and see the throne of
grace with our own eyes; but no matter where we are
on the earth we can boldly approach it in our hearts
by thinking about it as we pray to God. And we still
need the mediation of a high priest to operate
between us and God, but not any old covenant high
priest operating in any temple on earth, but the new
covenant high priest, Jesus Christ Himself, operating
in the temple in heaven:

"Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that
is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God"
(Hebrews 4:14).

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God
and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5).

"He ever liveth to make intercession for them"
(Hebrews 7:25).

"We have such an high priest, who is set on the
right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the
heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the
true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not
man" (Hebrews 8:1-2).

"And having an high priest over the house of God;
Let us draw near" (Hebrews 10:21-22).

Bible2 had said: [In Old Testament times,
circumcised] Gentiles were in no way to think that
they were separated from Israel or the temple or its
Old Covenant sacrifices.
---
A Brother In Christ replied in post #118:
so when was the gospel told to them in their country

In Old Testament times, Gentiles heard the gospel of
Christ the same way Israel did, through prophecies in
the Old Testament scriptures, but, like Israel, the
Gentiles didn't understand it back then. Gentiles
nevertheless could come to God and the temple and the
Old Covenant sacrifices through what they had heard
in their countries about God and his amazing dealings
with Israel:

"A stranger, that is not of thy people Israel, but
cometh out of a far country for thy name's sake; (For
they shall hear of thy great name, and of thy strong
hand, and of thy stretched out arm)" (1 Kings
8:41-42).

Bible2 had quoted Philippians 3:20-21; 1 John 3:2.
---
A Brother In Christ replied in post #118:
this is promise to citizen of the heaven who are
either a Jew or Gentile but part of the New man ...
thee Christ.. gal 3:16

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.
He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of
one, And to thy seed, which is Christ ... And if ye
be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs
according to the promise" (Galatians 3:16,29).

This refers to the promises which were made to
Abraham and his seed in the Old Testament, which seed
was Christ and all those who were Christ's, which
included the Old Testament saints, no matter whether
they were Jews or Gentiles.

Bible2 had quoted Galatians 3:16,29.
---
A Brother In Christ replied in post #118:
out of context ... who are the letter written too!

If I send my bills to you will you pay them?

The context of Galatians 3:16,29 in no way says or
requires that the Old Testament saints, no matter
whether they were Jews or Gentiles, weren't the seed
of Abraham, just as the letter being written to the
Galatians in no way requires this, for the the Old
Testament saints, no matter whether they were Jews or
Gentiles, were the seed of Abraham; that's why they
got to inherit the land:

"And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy
seed will I give this land" (Genesis 12:7).

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Depart, and go up
hence, thou and the people which thou hast brought up
out of the land of Egypt, unto the land which I sware
unto Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, saying, Unto
thy seed will I give it" (Exodus 33:1).

"Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the
inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel,
and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for
ever?" (2 Chronicles 20:7).

"So shall ye divide this land unto you according to
the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that
ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto
you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you,
which shall beget children among you: and they shall
be unto you as born in the country among the children
of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among
the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that
in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye
give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD"
(Ezekiel 47:21-23).

"If ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and
heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:29).

So those in the church, no matter whether they are
Jews or Gentiles, are heirs of the land of Israel;
they could inherit the land during the millennial
reign of Christ.

 

[Bible2]

WailingWall had said:
... there is no pre trib rapture
---
FreeinChrist replied in post #119:
I disagree. Who do you think is on the thrones?
Rev 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to
sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame
and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Revelation 3:21 refers to the church figuratively
sitting on the singular throne of Christ during his
millennial reign on the earth:

"And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand
years" (Revelation 20:4).

"We shall reign on the earth" (Revelation 5:10).

"He that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the
end, to him will I give power over the nations: And
he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels
of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as
I received of my Father. And I will give him the
morning star. He that hath an ear, let him hear what
the Spirit saith unto the churches"
(Revelation 2:26-29).

When you asked "Who do you think is on the [plural]
thrones?", did you mean just the millennial thrones?

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of
them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God, and which had not
worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither
had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in
their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ
a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4).

Here the thrones could include those on which the
apostles will sit:

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you,
That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration
when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his
glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones,
judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matthew 19:28).

Others in the church, including those in the church
who will go through the tribulation, could sit on
various other thrones ruling the various Gentile
nations.

Or, when you asked "Who do you think is on the
[plural] thrones?", did you also mean to include the
24 thrones which circle God's throne in heaven?

"And round about the throne were four and twenty
seats [thronos]: and upon the seats I saw four and
twenty elders" (Revelation 4:4).

Those on the 24 thrones in heaven could be the
highest rank of angel, which could be called
"thrones":

"By him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in
heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,
whether they be thrones, or dominions, or
principalities, or powers" (Colossians 1:16).

Just as there are angelic "principalities and powers
in heavenly places" (Ephesians 3:10), so there could
be angelic "thrones" in heavenly places.

Nothing about thrones in the Bible requires a rapture
before the tribulation.

FreeinChrist said in post #119:
To whom is judgment given?
1Cr 6:2 Or do you not know that the saints will
judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are
you not competent {to} {constitute} the smallest law
courts? 1Cr 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge
angels? How much more matters of this life?

1 Corinthians 6:2-3 could refer to the saints,
including those who will go through the tribultion,
judging the world and angels during the millennium.
It doesn't require a rapture before the tribulation.

FreeinChrist said in post #119:
Daniel 12 has a reference to a resurrection to life
and a resurrection to death. (wake to life or
everlasting contempt). The "first resurrection" is a
term for a resurrection to life. Christ was the
firstfruits of that resurrection. Those resurrected
in [Revelation 20] verse 4 are only those that were
in the Tribulation, so the OT saints, and the church
prior to that period had already been resurrected.

Nothing requires that the OT saints aren't now in the
church, or that the NT saints in the tribulation won't
be in the church, or that those NT saints referred to
in Revelation 20:4 hadn't been resurrected at the
second coming with the rest of the NT, and the OT,
saints:

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all
be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ
the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at
his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:22-23).

The Bible nowhere teaches a resurrection of the
saints into immortality before the tribulation.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

titus 2:13 looking for the happy hope.... Rapture before GT
is different than
Matt 24:30 all will mourn during the GT



Verb form of apostasy... 10 examples in the bible that define it departure

luke 2:37,4:13,13:27
acts 12:10, 15:38,19:9, 22:29
2 cor 12:8
2 tim 2:19
heb 3:12
1 tim 4:1

Argue with yourself

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Nothing in Revelation 4 requires that any believers
have been raptured by that time, for the four beasts
and the 24 elders could be angelic beings who have
been worshipping God continually for ages and ages,
even before men had even been created, and just as
they were doing in Old Testament times:

"Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD" (Isaiah 6:3).
"Holy, holy, holy, Lord" (Revelation 4:8).

who are the 24 elders... NOT
Not angels ..... rev 7:11
not chrubs ......rev 4:7
not the 144,000 ... rev 14:1-3


let go to

rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of Gold on their heads.

rev 3:21 To him who overcomes[1 jn 5:4-5] I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.

Heb 4:9-10

rev 3:5 He who overcomes[1 jn 5:4-5] shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the book of life; But I will confess his name before My Father and before the angels.

1 thes 2:19 For what is are hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in our presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming

2 tim 4:8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all wholoved His appearing

james 1:12 Happy is the man who endures tempation; for when he has been approved, he will recieve the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

1 peter 5:4 and when the Chief Sheppard appears, you will recieve the crown of glory that does not fade away!

1 cor 9:25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.

Revelations 4 is promises fulfill to the church if you study scripture you will see it!

rev 5:8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb , each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are prayers from the saints.

Ezek 1:5-13, 10:10-22

rev 4:10

OT saints on earth

Rev 5:9 and they sand a new song, saying:

" You are worthy to take the scroll, and to
open the seals; For you were slain,
and have redeemed us to God the
Father by your [JC] blood. Out of
every tribe and tongue and people
and nations,​

heb 10:19 ... God never offered salvation to satan ​

tribe=Jews
Gentiles=nations​

rev 5:10 And have made us kings
and priests to our God; and we
shall reign over the earth."​

1 peter 2:9, 2 tim 2:10-12, rev 1:6​

1 cor 6:2-3, rev 2:26-27, eph 1:6-10

​

God is Good to us by telling his sons ... how it will be ​

 

[WailingWall]

Hi Bible2
Due to the fact im beginning to post with an edge of sarcasm due to frustration im leaving here for now. But, I have been amused by yet another rap t sure theory. Since darby invented the rapture theory back in the 1800s it sure has mutated since then. Theres even this guy on tv (jvi) who has your dogs and cats being raptured with ya. I kid you not. When i first started on this thread, someone told me that it really does no good to post scripture proving there is no rapture, because those who believe in the rapture must ignore scripture in order to hold on to their rapture. Boy was he right. And if they dont believe the scriptures, i guess theyll just remain in their own private idaho.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Revelation 3:21 refers to the church figuratively
sitting on the singular throne of Christ during his
millennial reign on the earth:

"And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand
years" (Revelation 20:4).

"We shall reign on the earth" (Revelation 5:10).

"He that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the
end, to him will I give power over the nations: And
he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels
of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as
I received of my Father. And I will give him the
morning star. He that hath an ear, let him hear what
the Spirit saith unto the churches"
(Revelation 2:26-29).

When you asked "Who do you think is on the [plural]
thrones?", did you mean just the millennial thrones?

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of
them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God, and which had not
worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither
had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in
their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ
a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4).

Here the thrones could include those on which the
apostles will sit:

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you,
That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration
when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his
glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones,
judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matthew 19:28).

Others in the church, including those in the church
who will go through the tribulation, could sit on
various other thrones ruling the various Gentile
nations.

Or, when you asked "Who do you think is on the
[plural] thrones?", did you also mean to include the
24 thrones which circle God's throne in heaven?

"And round about the throne were four and twenty
seats [thronos]: and upon the seats I saw four and
twenty elders" (Revelation 4:4).

Those on the 24 thrones in heaven could be the
highest rank of angel, which could be called
"thrones":

"By him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in
heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,
whether they be thrones, or dominions, or
principalities, or powers" (Colossians 1:16).

Just as there are angelic "principalities and powers
in heavenly places" (Ephesians 3:10), so there could
be angelic "thrones" in heavenly places.

Nothing about thrones in the Bible requires a rapture
before the tribulation.

Actually you are not dealing with what i posted and why I posted it.

I responded to a fellow who pointed to Rev. 20:4 and showed a resurrection there. But who is resurrected - those who did not take the mark of the beast or worship the beast and while they are being ressurected there are already those on the thrones.


As to the 24 elders, they represent the church.
King David didvided the priesthood into 24 orders with an elder over each one (I Chronicles 24, I believe). Then he met with those 24 elders as a way to meet with the entire priesthood.

and how are the 24 elders described? Look at their song, which is in the first person in 24 of the 25 oldest MSS:
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Angels aren't redeemed - angels who fell stay damned, there is no salvation plan for them. The 24 elders are redeemed from every nation and tongue and tribe and people - and are kings and priests.

Who does that describe? US
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Hi Bible2
Due to the fact im beginning to post with an edge of sarcasm due to frustration im leaving here for now. But, I have been amused by yet another rap t sure theory. Since darby invented the rapture theory back in the 1800s it sure has mutated since then. Theres even this guy on tv (jvi) who has your dogs and cats being raptured with ya. I kid you not. When i first started on this thread, someone told me that it really does no good to post scripture proving there is no rapture, because those who believe in the rapture must ignore scripture in order to hold on to their rapture. Boy was he right. And if they dont believe the scriptures, i guess theyll just remain in their own private idaho.

Interesting how some folks have to insult others to try and prove their view. It is sad.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Hi Bible2
Due to the fact im beginning to post with an edge of sarcasm due to frustration im leaving here for now. But, I have been amused by yet another rap t sure theory. Since darby invented the rapture theory back in the 1800s it sure has mutated since then. Theres even this guy on tv (jvi) who has your dogs and cats being raptured with ya. I kid you not. When i first started on this thread, someone told me that it really does no good to post scripture proving there is no rapture, because those who believe in the rapture must ignore scripture in order to hold on to their rapture. Boy was he right. And if they dont believe the scriptures, i guess theyll just remain in their own private idaho.

who are the 24 elders... NOT
Not angels ..... rev 7:11
not chrubs ......rev 4:7
not the 144,000 ... rev 14:1-3


let go to

rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of Gold on their heads.

rev 3:21 To him who overcomes[1 jn 5:4-5] I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.

Heb 4:9-10

rev 3:5 He who overcomes[1 jn 5:4-5] shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the book of life; But I will confess his name before My Father and before the angels.

1 thes 2:19 For what is are hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in our presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming

2 tim 4:8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all wholoved His appearing

james 1:12 Happy is the man who endures tempation; for when he has been approved, he will recieve the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

1 peter 5:4 and when the Chief Sheppard appears, you will recieve the crown of glory that does not fade away!

1 cor 9:25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.

Revelations 4 is promises fulfill to the church if you study scripture you will see it!

rev 5:8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb , each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are prayers from the saints.

Ezek 1:5-13, 10:10-22

rev 4:10

OT saints on earth

Rev 5:9 and they sand a new song, saying:

" You are worthy to take the scroll, and to
open the seals; For you were slain,
and have redeemed us to God the
Father by your [JC] blood. Out of
every tribe and tongue and people
and nations,​

heb 10:19 ... God never offered salvation to satan ​

tribe=Jews
Gentiles=nations​

rev 5:10 And have made us kings
and priests to our God; and we
shall reign over the earth."

1 peter 2:9, 2 tim 2:10-12, rev 1:6​

1 cor 6:2-3, rev 2:26-27, eph 1:6-10​

God is Good to us by telling his sons ... how it will be ​

titus 2:13 happy hope
matt 24:30 all mourning...

where is the happy hope in mourning ?

 

[Doctorex]

Personally I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture. The Bible is full of warnings for the saints about the final tribulation. Why would this be if those in Christ wouldn't be here to endure it anyway?

Read Rev 20:4-6.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This describes those in the first resurrection who were beheaded for their testimony and not worshipping the beast or his image. The first resurrection obviously takes place AFTER tribulation. Jesus says these are of the FIRST resurrection, and verse five clearly states that there will not be another resurrection until after the 1000 years reign of Christ. Now heres the clincher.... 1Thess 4:16-17 says the dead are taken first, so if the dead are taken before the living, why is there among the dead those who were killed during the tribulation?

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That last line brings me to another topic. So we shall ever be with the Lord, but where will the Lord and his kingdom be?

DANIEL 2:32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


This is the kingdom of God replacing the kingdoms of men on the Earth, and just as the book revelation I quoted above, Christ and his saints will be the rulers.

Like it or not people, the rapture is false, and we are going to face tribulation, it is all part of Gods plan of purification. Either way, I think the post-tirb/pre-trib argument will be stteled a lot sooner than most think. What would you say if I said the tribulation was to start in the later half of April, and that even next month we may have some birth-pangs leading up to it?

Check out a free book called "2008 - God's Final Witness" by a guy named Ron Weinland who predicts such events. I've tried to pick a part his work with scripture, but it stands up. http://www.the-end.com/2008GodsFinalWitness/

 

[WailingWall]

Interesting how some folks have to insult others to try and prove their view. It is sad.

Matthew 23:29-33
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, [30] And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. [31] Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. [32] Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. [33] Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Were the scribes insulted?

 

[Bible2]

A Brother In Christ said in post #123:
titus 2:13 looking for the happy hope.... Rapture
before GT is different than
Matt 24:30 all will mourn during the GT

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious
appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus
Christ" (Titus 2:13).

Here the blessed hope is not a rapture before the
tribulation, for the Bible nowhere refers to any
such thing; rather, the blessed hope is physical
eternal life through Jesus Christ at the resurrection:

"In hope of eternal life ...
that blessed hope ...
the hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7).

"Jesus Christ, which is our hope" (1 Timothy 1:1).

"We ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for
the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For
we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not
hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with
patience wait for it" (Romans 8:23-25).

"Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober,
and hope to the end for the grace that is to be
brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ"
(1 Peter 1:13).

"The glorious appearing" of Jesus Christ referred to
in Titus 2:13 is not a future appearing to the
church before the tribulation, for the Bible nowhere
refers to any such thing; rather, the glorious
appearing is after the tribulation, when the rapture
occurs:

"Immediately after the tribulation ... then shall
appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then
shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they
shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of
heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send
his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they
shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:29-31).

"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our
gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

Matthew 24:29-31 in no way means that the church
being gathered to Jesus will be mourning. "All the
tribes of the earth" is referring to the unsaved,
who will be punished by Jesus the same day that He
comes to the church:

"The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with
his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance
on them that know not God, and that obey not the
gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be
punished with everlasting destruction from the
presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his
power; When he shall come to be glorified in his
saints, and to be admired in all them that believe"
(2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

Even though the church will have to go through the
coming tribulation, this in no way robs it of hope:

"We have access by faith into this grace wherein we
stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And
not only so, but we glory in tribulations also:
knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And
patience, experience; and experience, hope"
(Romans 5:2-4).

"Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation"
(Romans 12:12).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery
trial which is to try you, as though some strange
thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye
are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his
glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with
exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

A Brother In Christ said in post #123:
Verb form of apostasy... 10 examples in the bible that
define it departure

luke 2:37,4:13,13:27
acts 12:10, 15:38,19:9, 22:29
2 cor 12:8
2 tim 2:19
heb 3:12
1 tim 4:1

Those verses use the Greek verb "aphistemi", which
can be used when referring either to a physical
departure from some location, or to a spiritual
departure from one's faith.

Most of those verses refer to acts of physically
departing from some location. Only the last two
verses refer to acts of apostasy, which is to
depart from one's faith:

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an
evil heart of unbelief, in departing [aphistemi]
from the living God" (Hebrews 3:12).

"The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter
times some shall depart [aphistemi] from the faith"
(1 Timothy 4:1).

The coming of Jesus and His gathering together of the
church cannot come until sometime after this endtime
apostasy occurs and the Antichrist commits the
abomination of desolation, for the coming of Jesus
must destroy the Antichrist:

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our
Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together
unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be
troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by
letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at
hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that
day shall not come, except there come a falling away
[apostasia] first, and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth
himself above all that is called God, or that is
worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple
of God, shewing himself that he is God ... And then
shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall
consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall
destroy with the brightness of his coming [parousia]"
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-4,8).

Here Paul uses the Greek noun "apostasia", which is
used in the Bible not to refer to people physically
departing from some location, but to people mentally
departing, forsaking, their former religion:

"They are informed of thee, that thou teachest all
the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake
[apostasia] Moses, saying that they ought not to
circumcise their children, neither to walk after
the customs" (Acts 21:21).

Many in the church will forsake Jesus during the
sufferings of the tribulation, for they will be
"offended" that He would let them suffer so:

"He that received the seed into stony places, the
same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy
receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but
dureth for a while: for when tribulation or
persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by
he is offended" (Matthew 13:20-21).

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and
shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations
for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended"
(Matthew 24:9-10).

"And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and
hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they
shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and
curse their king and their God, and look upward. And
they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble
and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be
driven to darkness" (Isaiah 8:21-22).

A Brother In Christ said in post #124:
who are the 24 elders... NOT
Not angels ..... rev 7:11
not chrubs ......rev 4:7
not the 144,000 ... rev 14:1-3

"And all the angels stood round about the throne, and
about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before
the throne on their faces, and worshipped God"
(Revelation 7:11).

This doesn't require that the 24 elders aren't angels,
for the "all" can mean all the angels besides the 24
elders, just as in Revelation 19:18 the "all men"
doesn't require that those on the white horses in
Revelation 19:14 aren't men, for the "all" can mean
all the men besides those on the white horses:

"And the armies which were in heaven followed him
upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and
clean" (Revelation 19:14).

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he
cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls
that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather
yourselves together unto the supper of the great
God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the
flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and
the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them,
and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both
small and great" (Revelation 19:17-18).

This in no way requires that those on the white
horses are going to be eaten with their horses.

Regarding your reference to Revelation 4:7:

"And the first beast was like a lion, and the second
beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as
a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle"
(Revelation 4:7).

The four beasts are different than the 24 elders
because the 24 elders aren't described as having
animal shapes.

Regarding your reference to Revelation 14:1-3:

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount
Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four
thousand, having his Father's name written in their
foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the
voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great
thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping
with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song
before the throne, and before the four beasts, and
the elders: and no man could learn that song but the
hundred and forty and four thousand, which were
redeemed from the earth".

This would indicate that the 144,000 do not include
the 24 elders.

A Brother In Christ said in post #124:
let go to

rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty four thrones,
and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting
clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of Gold
on their heads.

rev 3:21 To him who overcomes[1 jn 5:4-5] I will grant
to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and
sat down with my Father on His throne.

Heb 4:9-10

rev 3:5 He who overcomes[1 jn 5:4-5] shall be clothed
in white garments, and I will not blot out his name
from the book of life; But I will confess his name
before My Father and before the angels.

1 thes 2:19 For what is are hope, or joy, or crown
of rejoicing? Is it not even you in our presence of
our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming

2 tim 4:8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown
of righteousness which the Lord, the righteous
Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me
only but also to all wholoved His appearing

james 1:12 Happy is the man who endures tempation;
for when he has been approved, he will recieve the
crown of life which the Lord has promised to those
who love Him.

1 peter 5:4 and when the Chief Sheppard appears, you
will recieve the crown of glory that does not fade
away!

1 cor 9:25 And everyone who competes for the prize
is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain
a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.

Revelations 4 is promises fulfill to the church if
you study scripture you will see it!

Nothing in Revelation 4 requires that the 24 elders
are members of the church, or even humans; they could
instead be angels, for angels can be clothed in white
garments:

"Two angels in white" (John 20:12).

"Angels came out of the temple, having the seven
plagues, clothed in pure and white linen"
(Revelation 15:6).

Chief angels could also wear crowns, for chief angels
are referred to as "princes" (Daniel 10:13), and
princes can wear crowns.

Even the dragon Satan and some demonic locust
creatures wear crowns:

"And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and
behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and
ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads"
(Revelation 12:3).

"And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses
prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it
were crowns like gold" (Revelation 9:7).

So a reference to the wearing of crowns in no way
requires a reference to the church, or even to humans,
just as a reference to sitting on thrones in no way
requires a reference to the church, or even to
humans, for even Satan sits on a throne:

"I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even
where Satan's seat [thronos] is" (Revelation 2:13).

"Thrones" in the following verse could include
reference to a rank of unfallen angels:

"By him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in
heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,
whether they be thrones, or dominions, or
principalities, or powers" (Colossians 1:16).

Just as there are angelic "principalities and powers
in heavenly places" (Ephesians 3:10), so there could
be angelic "thrones" in heavenly places.

The highest rank of unfallen angels could be even be
called "thrones" because they sit on the 24 thrones
which surround God's throne in heaven:

"And round about the throne were four and twenty
seats [thronos]" (Revelation 4:4).

 

[Bible2]

A Brother In Christ said in post #124:
rev 5:8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four
living creatures and the twenty four elders fell
down before the Lamb , each having a harp, and
golden bowls full of incense, which are prayers
from the saints.

Ezek 1:5-13, 10:10-22

rev 4:10

OT saints on earth

Rev 5:9 and they sand a new song, saying:

" You are worthy to take the scroll, and to
open the seals; For you were slain,
and have redeemed us to God the
Father by your [JC] blood. Out of
every tribe and tongue and people
and nations,

heb 10:19 ... God never offered salvation to satan

tribe=Jews
Gentiles=nations

rev 5:10 And have made us kings
and priests to our God; and we
shall reign over the earth."

1 peter 2:9, 2 tim 2:10-12, rev 1:6

1 cor 6:2-3, rev 2:26-27, eph 1:6-10

God is Good to us by telling his sons ... how it will
be

Regarding your references to Revelation 5:8 and
Revelation 5:9 and Revelation 5:10:

"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and
four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb,
having every one of them harps, and golden vials full
of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they
sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the
book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast
slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out
of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and
nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and
priests: and we shall reign on the earth" (Revelation
5:8-10).

This doesn't require that the 24 elders are the
church, or even humans, for they could still be
angels offering up in incense and song the prayers of
the church, just as elsewhere we see an angel
offering up in incense the prayers of the church:

"And another angel came and stood at the altar,
having a golden censer; and there was given unto him
much incense, that he should offer it with the
prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was
before the throne. And the smoke of the incense,
which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended
up before God out of the angel's hand" (Revelation
8:3-4).

Regarding your reference to Ezekiel 1:5-13, 10:10-22,
that doesn't refer to the 24 elders, or even to the
four beasts, for the four beasts have six wings each,
and are the seraphims who continually worship God in
heaven:

"The seraphims: each one had six wings ... And one
cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is
the LORD" (Isaiah 6:2-3).

"And the four beasts had each of them six wings ...
saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord" (Revelation 4:8).

The creatures in Ezekiel 1:5-13, 10:10-22 have four
wings, and are the cherubims upon whom God travels
to the earth in his four-wheeled chariot:

"Every one had four wings" (Ezekiel 1:6).

"Behold the four wheels by the cherubims, one wheel
by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub"
(Ezekiel 10:2).

"The chariot of the cherubims" (1 Chronicles 28:18).

WailingWall said in post #125:
... darby invented the rapture theory back in the
1800s

Actually, while he wrongly taught that the rapture
would be before the tribulation, he didn't invent
the rapture itself, for it is the church's being
"caught up together", "gathered together" to meet
Jesus in the sky at His second coming, after the
tribulation:

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming
of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with
a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with
the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise
first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be
caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet
the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our
gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

"Immediately after the tribulation ... they shall see
the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory. And he shall send his angels
with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall
gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:29-31).

FreeinChrist said in post #126:
I responded to a fellow who pointed to Rev. 20:4 and
showed a resurrection there. But who is resurrected -
those who did not take the mark of the beast or
worship the beast and while they are being
ressurected there are already those on the thrones.

Revelation 20:4 doesn't require that the saints in
the tribulation are resurrected after those on the
thrones; "they lived" means simply that; it doesn't
mean that they were resurrected at that instant.

Revelation 20:4-6 refers to the resurrection of the
church at the second coming:

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all
be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ
the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at
his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:22-23).

Revelation 20:4 in no way requires that the saints in
the tribulation won't be in the church, or won't be
resurrected with the rest of the church at the second
coming, or won't be included among those sitting on
the thrones. It's specific reference to the saints in
the tribulation is just a subset of all those
resurrected at the second coming, a subset showing
the happy conclusion of all the tribulation
suffering of the church in prior chapters of that
same book. No scripture ever says that any part of
the church will be resurrected into immortality
before the tribulation.

FreeinChrist said in post #126:
As to the 24 elders, they represent the church.
King David didvided the priesthood into 24 orders
with an elder over each one (I Chronicles 24, I
believe). Then he met with those 24 elders as a way
to meet with the entire priesthood.

Nothing requires that the 24 elders represent the
church, or even Israel's Aaronic priesthood of the
Old Covenant. The 24 elders could be angels.

FreeinChrist said in post #126:
and how are the 24 elders described? Look at their
song, which is in the first person in 24 of the 25
oldest MSS:
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art
worthy to take the book, and to open the seals
thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us
to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and
tongue, and people, and nation; Rev 5:10 And hast
made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall
reign on the earth.

Angels aren't redeemed - angels who fell stay
damned, there is no salvation plan for them. The 24
elders are redeemed from every nation and tongue and
tribe and people - and are kings and priests.

Who does that describe? US
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in
Asia: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from him which
is, and which was, and which is to come; and from
the seven Spirits which are before his throne; Rev
1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful
witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and
the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that
loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own
blood, Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests
unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and
dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

What the four beasts and the 24 elders sing
definitely describes the church, but even their
singing in the first person doesn't require that the
four beasts and the 24 elders are themselves the
church, just as James Taylor singing the words of a
female millworker doesn't make him that female
millworker.

The 24 elders could be angels offering up with the
four beasts, in incense and song, the prayers of the
church, just as later we see another angel offering
up in incense the prayers of the church:

"The four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down
before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and
golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of
saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art
worthy to take the book, and to open the seals
thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to
God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue,
and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God
kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth"
(Revelation 5:8-10).

"And another angel came and stood at the altar,
having a golden censer; and there was given unto him
much incense, that he should offer it with the
prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was
before the throne. And the smoke of the incense,
which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended
up before God out of the angel's hand"
(Revelation 8:3-4).

Doctorex said in post #129:
Personally I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture.
The Bible is full of warnings for the saints about
the final tribulation. Why would this be if those
in Christ wouldn't be here to endure it anyway?

That's right. Revelation, from beginning to end, is
for the church, just as Matthew 24, Mark 13, and
Luke 21 is for the church:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto
him, to shew unto his servants things which must
shortly come to pass ... [wash my mouth]I Jesus have sent mine
angel to testify unto you these things in the
churches" (Revelation 1:1, 22:16).

"Take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all
things" (Mark 13:23).

The church is referred to throughout the tribulation
parts of Revelation and Matthew 24, Mark 13, and
Luke 21:

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and
shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations
for my name's sake" (Matthew 24:9).

"Ye therefore shall see the abomination of
desolation" (Matthew 24:15).

"Until their fellowservants also and their brethren,
that should be killed as they were, should be
fulfilled" (Revelation 6:11).

"These are they which came out of great tribulation"
(Revelation 7:14).

"Here is the patience and the faith of the saints"
(Revelation 13:10).

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they
that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of
Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto
me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the
Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit"
(Revelation 14:12-13).

"Them that had gotten the victory over the beast,
and over his image, and over his mark, and over the
number of his name" (Revelation 15:2).

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that
watcheth" (Revelation 16:15).

"Them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God, and which had not
worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither
had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in
their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ
a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4).

Doctorex said in post #129:
1Thess 4:16-17 ... So we shall ever be with the
Lord, but where will the Lord and his kingdom be?

On the earth:

"We shall reign on the earth" (Revelation 5:10).

"He that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the
end, to him will I give power over the nations: And
he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels
of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as
I received of my Father. And I will give him the
morning star. He that hath an ear, let him hear what
the Spirit saith unto the churches" (Revelation
2:26-29).

Doctorex said in post #129:
... the rapture is false, and we are going to face
tribulation

Rather, the rapture is true, and we are going to
face tribulation, for the rapture will be after the
tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27).

Doctorex said in post #129:
... it is all part of Gods plan of purification

"Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried"
(Daniel 12:10).

 

[Bible2]

Doctorex said in post #129:
What would you say if I said the tribulation was to
start in the later half of April, and that even next
month we may have some birth-pangs leading up to it?

We may not be that close to the tribulation, but we
could still be close:

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch
is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that
summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all
these things, know that it is near, even at the
doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall
not pass, till all these things be fulfilled"
(Matthew 24:32-34).

Here the fig tree could symbolize Israel:

"I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw
your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree"
(Hosea 9:10).

The rebudding of the fig tree could symbolize the
re-establishment of the state of Israel by UN
resolution in November, 1947.

Matthew 24:32-34 could mean that the generation that
saw the re-establishment of the state of Israel will
not pass away before the tribulation and second
coming have been fulfilled.

If a generation usually passes away after seventy
years:

"The days of our years are threescore years and ten"
(Psalms 90:10).

Then Matthew 24:32-34 could mean that the tribulation
and second coming will be fulfilled before 70 years
have passed since the re-establishment of the state
of Israel, that is, before 2017. So it's possible
that the second coming could occur in 2016. This
would mean that the last seven years before the
second coming could begin in 2009.

This may be confirmed elsewhere in the Bible:

"From the going forth of the commandment to restore
and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince
shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks"
(Daniel 9:25).

Here "the commandment" could refer to the 1947 UN
resolution which restored the state of Israel, and
the Hebrew word translated as "weeks" is derived
from a word which means "to be completed", so that
Daniel 9:25 could mean that from 1947 there will be
69 years "to be completed" until Christ's coming.
This again would mean that the last seven years
before His coming would begin in 2009.

That could be the year that the terrible war of
Revelation 6 will occur, for it begins the
tribulation. With its aftermath of famines and
epidemics, it will kill one-fourth of the world:

"And there went out another horse that was red: and
power was given to him that sat thereon to take
peace from the earth, and that they should kill one
another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the
third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo
a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of
balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the
midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for
a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny;
and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. And when
he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of
the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked,
and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on
him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power
was given unto them over the fourth part of the
earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with
death, and with the beasts of the earth" (Revelation
6:4-8).

This war could involve the use of nuclear weapons;
they could be the "great sword" of Revelation 6:4.
This would help to explain how one war could end up
killing one fourth of the world. But who could use
nuclear weapons in a war in 2009? Possibly Israel
in its defense, for the war of Revelation 6:4-8 could
be the same as the following war:

"The king of the north shall come, and cast up a
mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms
of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen
people, neither shall there be any strength to
withstand. But he that cometh against him shall do
according to his own will, and none shall stand
before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land,
which by his hand shall be consumed"
(Daniel 11:15-16).

Note that it says that Israel will be defeated,
occupied, and destroyed. But who could do that to
Israel? Possibly Iraq, not as it is now, but as it
will be in 2009, for the US could get sick of trying
to force "democracy" on Iraq and could assign an
Iraqi Baathist general to "temporarily" take control
of Iraq with a fully-trained Iraqi Army, so that the
exhausted US Army could finally come home from Iraq
without leaving chaos behind.

This Baathist general ruling Iraq could present
himself as very friendly to the US and Israel, and as
a great hater of Iran, so that the US could begin to
equip the Iraqi Army with massive amounts of the
latest and best military hardware with the intention
that it will be used in an Iraqi invasion of Iran.
Once the Iraqi Army has been fully equipped with
enough hardware to defeat Iran, but before the
US has found a suitable casus belli, something
terrible could suddenly happen in Israel: some Ultra-
Orthodox Jewish zealots could blow up the Dome of the
Rock "to prepare the Temple Mount for Messiah's
rebuilding of the Temple". The entire Muslim world
could be so enraged by this that the huge, Muslim,
Iraqi Army, equipped with enough hardware to overrun
huge Iran, could employ all its forces in a
blitzkrieg invasion of tiny Israel instead. At the
same time, the Syrian Army could send all of its
missiles and troops against Israel, and the Iranians
could send many large missiles against Israel, so
that Israel could be so overwhelmed that it could
resort to its "nuclear option" in its "defense
against all belligerent nations", dropping nuclear
bombs on Baghdad, Damascus, Tehran, and many other
large cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

Some may say, "No way, Israel would never do that".
Don't be so sure. If it thinks its very existence
is at stake, it very well could. Israel's current
military leadership has no problem attacking with
massively outsized retaliation in its defense. Look
what it did to southern Beirut and Lebanon in its
last war against Hezbollah: it reduced large areas to
nothing but rubble so that Hezbollah wouldn't even
think of sending its missiles into Israel again, for
Hezbollah saw that the price it had to pay at the
hands of Israel was just too great in comparison to
the relatively little harm that it was able to do to
Israel.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

argue with God ... I am done ... plain verse yet you argue


promises given to the church
promise fulfilled

and you do not want them ... sad

 

[A Brother In Christ]

So a reference to the wearing of crowns in no way
requires a reference to the church, or even to humans,
just as a reference to sitting on thrones in no way
requires a reference to the church, or even to
humans, for even Satan sits on a throne:

"I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even
where Satan's seat [thronos] is" (Revelation 2:13).

"Thrones" in the following verse could include
reference to a rank of unfallen angels:

please show verse that the evil angels worshiping .. does not happen

they do try to war with God twice

 

[zeke37]

UN-fallen......not fallen

 

[FreeinChrist]

Revelation 20:4 doesn't require that the saints in
the tribulation are resurrected after those on the
thrones; "they lived" means simply that; it doesn't
mean that they were resurrected at that instant.

Sorry but you donn't make sense here.
There were those on the thrones, then those who were in the Trib were resurrected, "made alive". Yeah, it requires that someone is resurrected before them.

Revelation 20:4-6 refers to the resurrection of the
church at the second coming:

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all
be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ
the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at
his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:22-23).

Revelation 20:4 in no way requires that the saints in
the tribulation won't be in the church, or won't be
resurrected with the rest of the church at the second
coming, or won't be included among those sitting on
the thrones. It's specific reference to the saints in
the tribulation is just a subset of all those
resurrected at the second coming, a subset showing
the happy conclusion of all the tribulation
suffering of the church in prior chapters of that
same book. No scripture ever says that any part of
the church will be resurrected into immortality
before the tribulation.



Nothing requires that the 24 elders represent the
church, or even Israel's Aaronic priesthood of the
Old Covenant. The 24 elders could be angels.

That the 24 elders represents the church is the best view I have seen. There is no support at all for them being angels and i find that idea rather ludicrous.

What the four beasts and the 24 elders sing
definitely describes the church, but even their
singing in the first person doesn't require that the
four beasts and the 24 elders are themselves the
church, just as James Taylor singing the words of a
female millworker doesn't make him that female
millworker.

Not buying that.

 

[Bible2]

A Brother In Christ said in post #134:
promises given to the church
promise fulfilled

and you do not want them ... sad

It is not what we want; it is what God wants. He
wants everyone to know that there won't be a rapture
before the tribulation; He never promised any such
thing. It won't happen, no matter how much some
people may want it to.

Some people want it to happen so much, they could
even lose their faith in God when it doesn't happen
and they find themselves in the tribulation:

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and
shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations
for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended"
(Matthew 24:9-10).

"The same is he that heareth the word, and anon with
joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself,
but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or
persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by
he is offended" (Matthew 13:20-21).

"And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and
hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they
shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and
curse their king and their God, and look upward. And
they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble
and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be
driven to darkness" (Isaiah 8:21-22).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery
trial which is to try you, as though some strange
thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye
are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his
glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with
exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

"Here is the patience and the faith of the saints"
(Revelation 13:10).

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they
that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of
Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).

"Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober,
and hope to the end for the grace that is to be
brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ"
(1 Peter 1:13).

"After the tribulation ... they shall see the Son
of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and
great glory. And he shall send his angels with a
great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather
together his elect" (Matthew 24:29-31).

"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our
gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

A Brother In Christ said in post #135:
please show verse that the evil angels worshiping ..
does not happen

they do try to war with God twice

It hasn't been said that the 24 elders are evil
angels, but that they could be unfallen angels
of a rank called "thrones":

"By him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in
heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,
whether they be thrones, or dominions, or
principalities, or powers" (Colossians 1:16).

"Principalities and powers in heavenly places"
(Ephesians 3:10).

Just as there are ranks of angels called
"principalities" and "powers" in heavenly places, so
there could be a rank of unfallen angels called
"thrones" in heavenly places, and they could be
called that because they sit on the 24 thrones
around God's throne in heaven:

"And round about the throne were four and twenty
seats [thronos]" (Revelation 4:4).

Regarding the fallen angels, they will be involved
in a future war in heaven during the tribulation:

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels
fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and
his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their
place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon
was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and
Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast
out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with
him" (Revelation 12:7-9).

FreeinChrist said in post #137:
There were those on the thrones, then those who were
in the Trib were resurrected, "made alive". Yeah, it
requires that someone is resurrected before them.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of
them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and
for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the
beast, neither his image, neither had received his
mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and
they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until
the thousand years were finished. This is the first
resurrection. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath
part in the first resurrection: on such the second
death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God
and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand
years" (Revelation 20:4-6).

This is referring to the resurrection of the church,
including those in the church who will go through the
tribulation, who will also be on the thrones, for
they also "reigned with Christ" (Revelation 20:4).

So the following verse includes those in the church
who who will suffer through the tribulation:

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him"
(2 Timothy 2:12).

Nothing in Revelation 20:4-6 requires that those in
the church who will go through the tribulation will
be resurrected after the rest of the church; the
Greek word translated as "they lived" in Revelation
20:4 means just that; it doesn't mean "they were made
alive at that moment". Compare its usage elsewhere:

"Had lived [zao] with an husband seven years"
(Luke 2:36).

"They lived [zao] and reigned with Christ a thousand
years" (Revelation 20:4).

And here the "they" is the same as the "they" on the
thrones at the beginning of the verse, of which the
rest of the verse describes a subset which relates
to the former descriptions in the same book of the
church suffering through the tribulation.

It is Revelation 20:5-6 which refers to the actual
act of resurrection, and it refers to the first
resurrection, which is the resurrection at the
second coming of the whole church, including those
in the church who will have gone through the
tribulation:

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all
be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ
the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at
his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:22-23).

No verse ever describes a resurrection of any part of
the church into immortality before the tribulation.

FreeinChrist said in post #137:
That the 24 elders represents the church is the best
view I have seen. There is no support at all for them
being angels and i find that idea rather ludicrous.

Nothing requires that the 24 elders are themselves
the church, though even as angels they and the four
beasts/seraphims could represent the church before
God during those specific times when they are
presenting the prayers of the church up to God in
incense and song:

"The four beasts and four and twenty elders fell
down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps,
and golden vials full of odours, which are the
prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying
..." (Revelation 5:8-9).

"And another angel came and stood at the altar,
having a golden censer; and there was given unto him
much incense, that he should offer it with the
prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was
before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which
came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up
before God out of the angel's hand" (Revelation 8:3-4).

There is nothing ludicrous about the 24 elders on the
thrones possibly being the highest rank of angels in
heaven, which rank could even be called "thrones"
because of the thrones on which they sit.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

you twist ... scripture

take it out of context ...

read other people mail .... will you pay my bills please

still have not answered... 1 john 4:20 vs luke 14:26

what are we to do love or hate!

 

[zeke37]

Sorry but you donn't make sense here.
There were those on the thrones, then those who were in the Trib were resurrected, "made alive". Yeah, it requires that someone is resurrected before them.




That the 24 elders represents the church is the best view I have seen. There is no support at all for them being angels and i find that idea rather ludicrous.

they are heavenly beings, so most likely they ARE angels....men become angels....

but as for them representing the church, they are mentioned in Rev4, and have crowns...and they cast them aside....

I see this as the same crowns that the dead in Christ and the elect have given to them at His return...

all believers are promised crowns..there are many crowns described; Glory, righteousness, life, imperishable, joy/rejoicing, and in Rev4-gold....!!!

so they represent to me, the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 disciples of Christ...

which symbolizes the 12 tribes(including the descendants of the scattered 10 northern tribes) and those righteous under Christ...

in His service
c