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Rapture question

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dan888

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Eph39, I understand the separation of Church and Israel, so it does make sense that God should finish and take away the Church, before He can continue with the last 7 year period with Israel, but does it necessarily have to be this way? I know I'm just throwing out hypotheticals, but can't God continue the program with Israel without taking away the Church? Why can't God deal with both at the same time?

So is God's clock on Israel really at a stop right now? What about the prophecy about Israel, the fig tree "bearing fruits" and becoming a nation in 1948? Is this a "side" prophecy that is not counted with the main prophecy of Daniel 9?
 
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eph3Nine

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dan888 said:
Eph39, I understand the separation of Church and Israel, so it does make sense that God should finish and take away the Church, before He can continue with the last 7 year period with Israel, but does it necessarily have to be this way?

Yes, Not only does it have to be this way, It WILL be this way. We dont just "guess" at what God tells us He WILL do...we are told to STUDY so that we can accurately SEE exactly what the chain of events will be. God is God, and we are His creation. We dont tell HIM how things will be, but we are to STUDY His WRITTEN revelation to mankind to find out how HIS STORY will unfold.


I know I'm just throwing out hypotheticals, but can't God continue the program with Israel without taking away the Church? Why can't God deal with both at the same time?

If you STUDY, you will find the ANSWER to that question! God doesnt deal in hypotheticals, but in FACTS. He has set out HIS PLAN this way and we can be sure of it because its IN HIS WORD. Without His Word, we would all be merely "guessing" and would not KNOW!

God is the ONLY One who can tell you the WHY....its there in scripture. The FACT is that He has chosen to deal with Israel FIRST....then He has chosen to INTERRUPT Israels program with the dispensation of GRACE that we are currently in today...and at a future time He WILL resume His promises to Israel, after WE, the church which is His body is raptured.

SCRIPTURE is where I get MY information...where do you get yours?

So is God's clock on Israel really at a stop right now? What about the prophecy about Israel, the fig tree "bearing fruits" and becoming a nation in 1948? Is this a "side" prophecy that is not counted with the main prophecy of Daniel 9?

Yes, Gods timeclock for Israel has STOPPED! We are no longer IN the prophetic program. We are in Gods MYSTERY program today. Arent you even the slightest bit interested to know or learn about it? How can you cooperate with God if you dont even know what program He is IN? He wants you to KNOW!

By the way, that is NOT factual about Israel becoming a nation in 1948. That has not yet occurred. With the timetable STOPPED, God is not dealing with Israel as a Nation in this present dispensation. He is putting together a BODY of both gentile and jew today...NO national preference....Israel today is "LO AMMI", which means NOT MY PEOPLE.
 
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dan888

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Well, thanks again, Eph39 for your exhaustive efforts in explaining your view on this. I surely do not come close when it comes to studying the Bible, and for that reason I give you hypotheticals for which I was hoping you'd throw back some scriptural references to negate my statements. I have no doubt in my mind that everyone here gets their information from the Bible (or at least they should), but understanding the truths written therein, is definitely a separate blessing that some have and others do not. Thank the Lord for the incredible and bold knowledge that you have and help those who lack this understanding.

Cheers!
 
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VonKarman

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Wow Eph:thumbsup:

I must applaud your delivery and concise explanations of the distinctive differnces in the rapture of the church and the second coming of the Lord.

Wonderful posts! Thank you!

Definitely TWO different occurences.(which I see some still do not accept and I attribute that mostly to lack of study and rightly dividing the Word, as you stated)

1. The rapture when Jesus comes FOR his church.(removing us from his wrath upon the Earth during The Great Tribulation period)

2. His Second Coming and millennial reign when he RETURNS WITH his church.

Again, great posts and scriptural support references Eph. It's a blessing to read your posts!

~VonKarman
 
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eph3Nine

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VonKarman said:
Wow Eph:thumbsup:

I must applaud your delivery and concise explanations of the distinctive differnces in the rapture of the church and the second coming of the Lord.

Wonderful posts! Thank you!

Definitely TWO different occurences.(which I see some still do not accept and I attribute that mostly to lack of study and rightly dividing the Word, as you stated)

1. The rapture when Jesus comes FOR his church.(removing us from his wrath upon the Earth during The Great Tribulation period)

2. His Second Coming and millennial reign when he RETURNS WITH his church.

Again, great posts and scriptural support references Eph. It's a blessing to read your posts!

~VonKarman

Thank you very much for your kind words. It is always a delight to share and have someone actually BELIEVE what God has said.

One point I would like to throw out and let you think about. When Christ comes BACK to the earth, WE, the Body of Christ will NOT be with Him. GASP....dont fall off your chair now...LOL LOL. OUR place of rule and reign is in the heavenlies where we shall ever be with the Lord. This commonly held belief is one that would come under the heading of "traditional church teaching" and NOT under biblical teaching. Israel reigns and rules the EARTH. We have all "spiritual blessings in heavenly places"....we will "rule over angels"...Israel was promised real estate.

See the difference? I have a wonderful book entitled "God had a SECRET" that is a great read and has all the important things about OUR program with accompanying biblical support that I GIVE AWAY! I would love to send it to you as I know you would enjoy it. It will bless yer socks off and give you some much needed information to continue your studies.

May God bless you as you learn more about being a steward of the MYSTERY TRUTHS entrusted to us in this dispensation of GRACE. Please PM me with your mailing addy, or send me an email at goinupru@yahoo.com and I will put your book in the mail today.

We also have LIVE bible studies on Tues/Thurs nites at 7 PM Central on www.paltalk.com.

Download is FREE, pick a nickname just like you did here, and then come to the RELIGION section, pick Christianity and from that list , go to the room called "Gods Will Made Clear" at 7 PM Central time. If you are on the west coast, that would be 5 Pm, if you are on the EAST Coast it would be 8 PM.

We are studying this very thing and I run the room. We have questions and answers afterwards....its a LIVE Bible Study with Pastor Trent Cole out of Dayton Ohio.

Would LOVE to see you there if you can make it. Huuugs

Grace and peace
 
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Dispy

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There is an excellent article by Tracy Plessinger as to God's eternal plan for the ages. The entire artilce can be found at: http://www.gracealive.us/misunderstood.html.

>SNIP<

God' Eternal Unchanging Plan

Scripture makes very clear that God has only ever had one plan. That plan has been in effect since before the world began and will be fulfilled only after time is no more, in the dispensation of the fulness of time.

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that connot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:1,2

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath pruposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Ephesians 1:9,10.


The heart of this plan is seen in the passage from Ephesians quoted absove. God's eternal purpose and plan is to glorify His son, Jesus Christ, to "gather together in one all things in Christ". This eternal purpose can also be seen in Paul's letter to the church at Philippi.

Wherefore God also had highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of thing in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth: And that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Chris is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11.

Clearly, God's eternal purpose is to have all creatures glorify the Son, Jesus Christ, Which in turns brings honor to the Father. It is also clear from two of the passages quoted above that this one eternal purpose of God is to be carried out in two different locations, on earth and in heaven.

There is however, an impediament to God's plan. There is one who desires to usurp the rightful position of Christ as the one that is glorified by heaven and earth. The being who desires to have the honor and glory that belong to Christ is Satan. In the book of Isaiah, we read of his selfish desire.

For thou [Lucifer] hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Isaiah 14:13,14.

It is very significant that Satan uses a specific title of God when he sets out on this course of rebellion. He refers to God as, "the most high". That title is a title that relates specifically to God's ownership of heaven and earth. This can be seen as we look at the first time that that title is used in Scripture.

And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:...And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, Genesis 14:19,22.

What we are read in scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, is an account of Satan's attempt to become the possessor of heaven and earth, to replace Jesus Christ as the ruler of the universe. We also learn of God's counterattack and that God's plan, in the end, will overcome Satan's plan. In the end, Jesus Christ will alone be glorified in heaven and earth.

Dispensational Bible study simply acknowledges the fact that Satan has attacked God's authority on two fronts, the heaven and the earth, and that God will repel that attack and be victorious on those same two fronts. The first person to rightly divide the Word of Truth was not some modern-day dispensationalist. It was God.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1

God presents His creative act as an act that produced a divided universe, a universe that consists of two parts, the heaven, and the earth. In order to fully understand God's plan we must understand how that plan will be carried out in both of these areas.

God Plan on the earth

As we continue in the first chapter of the book of Genesis, we immediately see where God's plan is focused initially.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon theface of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon theface of the waters. Genesis 1:2

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the foul of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 1:28

And God said, Let there be lingths in the firmanent of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for light in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. Genesis 1:14,15


It is clear that the creation described in Genesis 1 is focused exclusively on the earth. It is the earth that is said to be "without form, and void". It is the earth that man is told to "replenish" and "subdue", Even the light that God created in heaven were for the purpose of giving light "upon the earth."

After the flood, God gave similar instructions to Noah and his sons.

And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. Genesis 9:1

With the setting aside of Abram to begin the formation of the nation Israel we see that the focus was still on the earth.

The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them: and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. Isaiah 35:1

Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee, For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. and the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings ot the brightness of thy shining. Isaiah 60:1-3

Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold broken to peices together and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth....And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Daniel 2:35-44


Notice that Isaiah points to the wonderful utopian conditions on the renewed earth and how the Gentile nations will flow into that blessing. Daniel emphasizes the fact that the [/b]"God of heaven"[/b] will establish a kingdom that fill "the whole earth". These passages are typical of the message that the prophets brought to the nation Israel. They were continuing God's focus on reestablishing His aughority on the earthly part of His creation.

Christ was presented to Israel as the rightful heir to the earthly throne of David.

And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reigh over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Luke 1:30-33

Christ taught His disciples to pray for the kingdom to come to the earth.

Afther this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matthew 6:9,10

The apostles tied their message and its returning, triumphant Messiah to the fulfillment of the prophetic Scriptures.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ which before was preached unot you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the Mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:19-21.

All of the facts above show us that during the time frame covered from Genesis 1:2 to Acts 9, focus of God's message was on the earth.

God's Plan in the Heaven

In the 9th chapter of Acts we see a significant change begin to take place as Jesus Christ speaks from heaven to a man who would become the Apostle of the Gentiles.

And as he [Saul] journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick agains the pricks. Acts 9:3-5

Clearly, Paul had a calling that was heavenly in nature. The setting aside of Paul and the formation of the Body of Christ marks a change in God's focus from the earth to heaven. God's basic plan to glorify Christ has not changed at all. His purpose is still the same one that He conceived before the foundation of the world. With the ministry of Paul, He is now simply revealing the heavenly aspect of that plan. In the book of Ephesians, Paul makes quite clear that the focus of the Body of Christ is heavenly.

The Body of Christ is blessed in heavenly places.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Ephesians 1:3

The Body of Christ is seated in heavenly places.

And hath raised us up together, and made us sip together in heavenly place in Christ Jesus; Ephesians 2:6

The Body of Christ is ministering to beings in heavenly places.
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Ephesians 3:10

The Body of Christ has at it head a Christ who has ascended above and therefore rules over heavenly places.

He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:10

The Body of Chris is fighting a war with beings in heavenly places.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the drkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12

Paul is also careful to make sure that we understand that our eternal destiny is in the heavenlies, not on the earth.
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saour, the Lord Jesus Christ; Whom shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unot himself. Philippians 3:20,21

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the vocie of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: an so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. I Thessalonians 4:16-18


Notice that our comfort is not found in the return of Christ to establish an earthly kingdom, as it was for Israel. Our comfort is found in Christ catching us off this earth to reign with Him for all eternity in the heavenlies. Our eternal destiny and conversation is in heaven and not on the earth.

We should note one other important truth about all of this information about God purpose being fulfilled in heaven. It was all kept secret in the mind and heart of God until it was revealed to and through the Apostle Paul.

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made know to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans:25,26

Notice that Paul says that the information he is preaching was "kept secret since the world began". This is a marked contrast to Peter's preachings things "which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." (See Acts 3:21, quoted above) God's plans concerning the heavens were kept secret until revealed to and through the Apostle Paul.

These facts show us that the truth of God's plan being fulfilled in heaven, the truth under which we operate today, is found exclusively in the writings of the Apostle Paul to the Chruch, the Body of Christ. We must go to those writings to understand how God will fulfill His purpose in heaven, and how we should live based on our place in that heavenly plan.

The fulfillment of God's Plan.

We have already seen that in the book of Ephesians God reveals the fulfillment of His lplan in eternity future, both on the earth and in heaven, as all things are gathered "together in one...in Christ". As God closes out His revelation to man we see that He has in fact brought everthing full circle.

And I say a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1

God's one eternal plan will be fulfilled, both in heaven and on earth. Jesus Christ will be honored and glorified in all the universe.

The only way that we can truly understand the entirety of god's plan is to rightly divide the Word of Truth and realize that He is working to carry out this plan in two areas, the heaven and the earth.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!
 
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VonKarman

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eph3Nine said:
Thank you very much for your kind words. It is always a delight to share and have someone actually BELIEVE what God has said.

One point I would like to throw out and let you think about. When Christ comes BACK to the earth, WE, the Body of Christ will NOT be with Him. GASP....dont fall off your chair now...LOL LOL. OUR place of rule and reign is in the heavenlies where we shall ever be with the Lord. This commonly held belief is one that would come under the heading of "traditional church teaching" and NOT under biblical teaching. Israel reigns and rules the EARTH. We have all "spiritual blessings in heavenly places"....we will "rule over angels"...Israel was promised real estate.

See the difference? I have a wonderful book entitled "God had a SECRET" that is a great read and has all the important things about OUR program with accompanying biblical support that I GIVE AWAY! I would love to send it to you as I know you would enjoy it. It will bless yer socks off and give you some much needed information to continue your studies.

May God bless you as you learn more about being a steward of the MYSTERY TRUTHS entrusted to us in this dispensation of GRACE. Please PM me with your mailing addy, or send me an email at goinupru@yahoo.com and I will put your book in the mail today.

We also have LIVE bible studies on Tues/Thurs nites at 7 PM Central on www.paltalk.com.

Download is FREE, pick a nickname just like you did here, and then come to the RELIGION section, pick Christianity and from that list , go to the room called "Gods Will Made Clear" at 7 PM Central time. If you are on the west coast, that would be 5 Pm, if you are on the EAST Coast it would be 8 PM.

We are studying this very thing and I run the room. We have questions and answers afterwards....its a LIVE Bible Study with Pastor Trent Cole out of Dayton Ohio.

Would LOVE to see you there if you can make it. Huuugs

Grace and peace

Thanks a bunch.
I'll be there to join the study.

~VK
 
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ddub85

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@ Eph3nine

I don't believe the wrath of God has to do with the resumption. The tribulation has to do with the resumption, and wrath is the ending of man's rebellion towards God.
The wrath of God and the GREAT TRIBULATION ARE one in the same.
What scripture says so?
How do I know? Because when you rightly divide Gods Word as He tells us to do, it clearly shows that we are NOW, currently, IN the Mystery or parenthetic program that has STOPPED ISRAELS program midstream. When we are RAPTURED, the timeclock will again start ticking for the nation Israel who IS expecting MORE WRATH, or the time of Jacobs
Trouble (not the time of the Body of Christs trouble.)
You just referred to the Great Tribulation as the wrath of God. Do you have any scripture to substantiate that statement? Again, I say tribulation and wrath are two different things.
We ARE experiencing suffering and tribulation at PRESENT...as the church which is His body is promised it all over scripture. However, the GREAT TRIBULATION is said to contain things the world has NOT SEEN BEFORE or experienced...and since WE, the Body, are not appointed unto Wrath...and Israel , according to scripture still has seven years of it left to undergo according to her agreement with God...
Again you have mixed the Great Tribulation with the wrath of God. I don't see that in the Bible. Also, I don't see where Israel is to face the wrath of God. The Great Tribulation? Sure. Wrath of God? No.
...it stands to reason that when we are GONE< this Program that needs to be finished< WILL BE!
Who will go then? There will be saved Gentiles on earth with Israel. Will no Jews be raptured? Who will go? Who are the 'we'?

[quote}I disagree. God has promised us tribulation, and has promised us we won't experience His wrath. Tribulation (including the Great Tribulation) is what man does to man. Wrath is what God brings directly upon man. God will allow man to lay his hands on man, but will not lay His own hands on His children. That is the difference.[/quote]
The GREAT TRIBULATiON is Gods wrath upon Israel and is found in any nbr of places in the Word.
Could you list those scriptures please?
I dont see ANY support that this event is what man does to man, but it IS supported to be the culmination of Gods program with Israel, which was temporarily SET ASIDE to usher in a MYSTERY program having to do with the establishment of A BODY which God is NOW forming.
Israel's tribulation will result in the birth of a great nation, as promised previously (Isa 66). The wrath of God will result in utter destruction of those who oppose Him. Again, I see two different things.

Quote
I say the Great Tribulation, which isn't the wrath of God, must happen before God again resumes His dealings with Israel. We have not been exempted from tribulation, but from wrath. The Great Tribulation, although great, is still tribulation (man's, Satan's doings), and not wrath (from the hand of God).
God Bless!
There is NO scriptural support for your view. The GREAT TRIBULATION is not something promised to we the Body of Christ, and IS , in fact, Gods resumption of His plan with Israel. Anyone saved during that time will be saved according to the KINGDOM message and NOT the message we now have of GRACE.
While your scenario is interesting, it doesnt line up with the scriptures.
Grace and Peace
Again, the Great Tribulation results in a new birth;
Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut [the womb]? saith thy God.

Whereas the wrath of God results in destruction;

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The purpose of the Great Tribulation is the birth of a nation as prophesied. The purpose of the wrath of God is totally different.

God Bless!
 
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