Rapture question

[dan888]

Hello eveyone, I'm a newbie on this forum and this is my first post. It's regarding 2 Thes 2

"Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him, That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

I'm still confused about the rapture thing and was hoping someone might clear this up without going into too much detail about the subject.

I want to believe that we will be kept from the hour of tribulation (Rev 3:10), which from my understanding is that we will be kept (or Raptured) before the start of the 7 year period, but according to 2 Thes 2, it seems like we won't be raptured until "that man of sin be revealed" which won't be until 3 1/2 years into the tribulation, which is when the man of sin is suppose to be revealed.

Can someone be as simple and concise as possible? I know this topic can be really drawn out.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[eph3Nine]

Oh thats easy! The rapture is part of the MYSTERY revelation given ONLY to Paul for we , the Body of Christ. The GREAT TRIBULATION cannot even BEGIN until AFTER we have been raptured...as our program today is an interruption by God to the program He previously had with Israel. Israel has seven years left to her program with God...what she signed up for is found in Leviticus 26. All but five courses of curses have already taken place in history for Israel...ONE remains. AFTER we are raptured/part of the MYSTERY PROGRAM we are currently IN TODAY...the timeclock for Israel will AGAIN RESUME. YOU WONT BE HERE for the revealing of the man of sin...He is the antiChrist. You will be with YOUR Lord in the air, ever to be with the Lord.

Aint that good news??? Remember....the bible states that we the Body of Christ are not appointed unto WRATH...it is the Nation Israel that has seven more years, or ONE MORE COURSE of curses to endure before all her promises from God are yea and amen.

God has interrupted His KINGDOM program with the Nation Israel, and has initiated His SECRET PLAN, which was HID IN GOD until He revealed it to Paul.

I hope this helps. The book entitled "Satan and his plan of Evil" by Keith Blades is a great book that goes into this in detail and is a fascinating read. It can be ordered online by googling KEITH BLADES.

 

[dan888]

...but didn't it just say in 2 Thes 2 that our gathering/rapture won't come until AFTER the man of sin is revealed?

 

[NeoScribe]

I'm still new at the studies of Revelations, but i think this may be refering to the Mark of Christ that believers will recieve during the End of Days to distinguish themselves from non-believers.

 

[eph3Nine]

...but didn't it just say in 2 Thes 2 that our gathering/rapture won't come until AFTER the man of sin is revealed?

Context , context , context. Many verses say alot of things when taken standing ALONE...we aren't to study OUR Bibles that way, however, but comparing scripture WITH scripture we see the intent of the verse. Also by taking it in CONTEXT.

Lets look at the verses again:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

To understand these statements, we look at what Paul has been discussing: ie: CONTEXT!

Chapter One, verse 5 is Paul talking about the persecution and suffering of the Thessalonian believers that begins in verse 4 and ends with the word "us" in verse 7. Thats why the period is used there. There was no punctuation in the greek text, so the translator added the appropriate marks in order to break up the sentence into a more readable form.

In the middle of verse 7, Chapter 1, Paul begins a NEW subject (which amounts to a new paragraph) by mentioning the Second Coming of Christ with His mighty angels, ready to execute punishment on the unbelievers living on the earth AT THAT TIME. (verses 7-10).

The reason Paul mentions the Second Coming here is that this teaching was used as a warning to those who refused to believe the gospel that Paul preached. If the Rapture had taken place very soon after Paul had written 2 Thessalonians (and it can happen at any time), those who persecuted the believers would themselves be punished by God during the Tribulation Period, since the Tribulation Period begins AFTER the rapture. The Tribulation Period ENDS at the Second Coming of Christ.

Now, this condition, which prevailed THEN, has prevailed all during this Dispensation of Grace; and even NOW, the Rapture is much closer than it was during Pauls time. God is not going to wait forever. The RISEN Christ will come back for His Assembly, The Body of Christ. In the meantime, we can rightfully refer to the Tribulation Period and the Second Coming as a warning to the UNSAVED, when we preach the gospel to them.

NOW...back to the 2nd Chapter again to see how this fits together.

The DAY of CHRIST refers to the RAPTURE as set forth in verse 1. (also see Phil 1:6)

The DAY OF THE LORD is a very important OLD TESTAMENT theme of PROPHECY (Isaiah 2:12) that involves the NATION ISRAEL in the Tribulation Period and the Millenium.

Paul had taught them this truth during his stay in Thessalonica. After leaving them, they became confused. He had to tell them in his first letter to them (1 Thess. 5:2) that the day of the Lord would come as a thief in the night, that is, UN-Announced. They had gone thru many trials of suffering, and this contributed to their confusion because "suffering" will be a major characteristic of the Tribulation Period. They THOUGHT the Tribulation Period had begun.

But the RAPTURE of the Body of Christ MUST come first, and THEN the DAY of the LORD will come in. The man of sin will be revealed; he will set himself up as 'god' in Israel's temple (Matt. 24:15- the abomination of desolation- Dan. 9:27) ; and he will be destroyed at the Second Coming of Christ.

So, as a good teacher of God's Word, Paul gave some contrasts in this chapter between the Rapture and the Day of the Lord...two separate events! The Rapture is mentioned in verses 1 & 3 (departure), verse 7 (he be taken out of the way); and the Day of the Lord is mentioned in verses 3 (man of sin), 4 & 6 (his time), 8-12.

I hope this helps.

 

[debbee]

HI DAN888<
this topic brings out the worst in people this is the second time I wrote this. strange thing....my connection unconnected, I lost my post, then it says I'm not logged in though I was-twice. I use the KJV with the original Greek, the best.........


Our gathering unto him is the rapture, we go up to him in the air, Jesus doesn't come back to earth until his second coming........

2. That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled (false doctrine does this) neither by spirit( false messages and false interpretation) not by word (those who claim to have a word of the Lord) nor by letter as from one of us( pauls name was being forged to prophecticthings) as the day of Christ is at hand ( translated from Greek "the day of the Lord" which refers to events after the rapture....some were claiming in pauls day that the2 coming was about to take place)

3. Let no man decieve you by any means (don't listen to unsound teaching) for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first ( Greek says "for that day shall not come, except there come a departure first"
which is the rapture) and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition)

skip to verse 6...
and now you know what withholds (the church) that he might be revealed at his time ( the antichrist will be revealed or made known after the rapture)

7. For the mystery of iniquity does already work (false teachers and teaching) only He(the church) who now lets( who now hinders evil) will let ( continues to hinder)
until He (the church) be taken out of the way( the pronoun "He" confuses many, verse 4 and 6 the pronoun "he" refers to antichrist, verse 7 refers to the church)

8. and then(afterrapture) shall that wicked (antichrist) be revealed (proves the rapture takes place before thegreat tribulation) whom the Lord shall consume with the brightness of his mouth( translate "the breathe of his mouth Isa 11v4)and shall destroy with the brightnessof his coming (2 coming)

9. even him (antichrist) whose coming after the working of satan, (satan sponsorsantichrist) with all power, and signs and lying wonders(his rise to power will be very religious in the first half)

10. and with all decievable of unrighteouness in them who perish(all lying powers , lying signs and lying wonders is used to decieve the world.) because they recieved not the love of the truth that they might be saved. (they rejected the cross so God will send strong delusions to be "the lie", a specific lie. which is anything that leads one away from the cross...anything! its Jesus Christ and him crucified. his work on the cross defeated all powers and he did it for you...for me....for all who will believe and put their faith there in what he has done on the cross.

God Bless, DEB~

 

[eph3Nine]

I'm still new at the studies of Revelations, but i think this may be refering to the Mark of Christ that believers will recieve during the End of Days to distinguish themselves from non-believers.

Nope neo....if you are a believer you wont BE here during the Great Tribulation to receive any mark of the Beast. Revelation is written TO and ABOUT the nation Israel at a future time. All we who have trusted Christ in this age of GRACE will be GONE!

 

[WAB]

Hello eveyone, I'm a newbie on this forum and this is my first post. It's regarding 2 Thes 2

"Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him, That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

I'm still confused about the rapture thing and was hoping someone might clear this up without going into too much detail about the subject.

I want to believe that we will be kept from the hour of tribulation (Rev 3:10), which from my understanding is that we will be kept (or Raptured) before the start of the 7 year period, but according to 2 Thes 2, it seems like we won't be raptured until "that man of sin be revealed" which won't be until 3 1/2 years into the tribulation, which is when the man of sin is suppose to be revealed.

Can someone be as simple and concise as possible? I know this topic can be really drawn out.

Thanks,
Dan

Oh yes! And there have already been declarations w/out any Scriptural references to support said declarations.

Just a thought... have a look at the order of events as stated in 2 Thess.2:1... "...the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (#1)... and our gathering together unto Him..." (#2).

If the "gathering" (assembling together) is describing the Rapture, and "the coming" is the arrival of the Lord Jesus Christ on earth, would not the order be reversed?

Just a thought...

Shalom... WAB

 

[dan888]

Well, I'm sorry to bring up such a topic, but this is all news to me for the first time, since I have never been to church for 10 years now, so I'm missing out and doing some catching up.

Thank you for everyone's inputs thus far, but I will keep reading and digesting without passion or emotions, so please continue what you have to say if you do have anything to say and forgive me if I keep asking, even the most obvious questions.

So let me try to understand mrs. ephesian....you're saying that the day of Christ = the Rapture in 2Thes2:2, and "that day" in the next verse 3, refers to the 2nd Coming = the day of the Lord, so that these "days" in both verses 2 and 3 are not referring to the same day?

If so, my next obvious question would be how can we tell? I know you (ephesian lady) already tried to explain, but I guess I'm not seeing it. I mean I understand that the rapture and 2nd coming are separate events, I'm just not distinguishing verses 2 & 3 as separate. I shall re-read.

 

[Dennis_Hogg]

I think that Eph 3:9 was saying that "the Day of the Lord" is a specific phrase in the Bible that refers to a specific time yet future. Search for the entire phrase. My search reveals 30 occurrences Zeph 1:14-18 is a classic passage. So is Joel 2 (this is quoted by Peter in Acts 2). You will find that this is referrring to the time when God pours out his wrath on the earth. Somebody write a forged letter to the Thessalonians that taught them that the period of God's wrath had started. Paul tells them that this cannot start until Satan has set up his position as the Anti-Christ.

 

[eph3Nine]

Oh yes! And there have already been declarations w/out any Scriptural references to support said declarations.

I think, if I were you , that I would READ the said declarations without scripture again! There is plenty of scripture as well as an admonition to read scripture IN CONTEXT. So, please stop with the unnecessary "sniping" and if you have something to say that counters what has been shared, then show scripture to prove your point.

Just a thought... have a look at the order of events as stated in 2 Thess.2:1... "...the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (#1)... and our gathering together unto Him..." (#2).

If the "gathering" (assembling together) is describing the Rapture, and "the coming" is the arrival of the Lord Jesus Christ on earth, would not the order be reversed?

Just a thought...

Shalom... WAB

The issue still IS that scripture itself identifies what the two events ARE and to whom they refer. Try reading again where these things are found...the references ARE there, and maybe you will see it.

Paul is addressing those who have been told that Christ had already come back....and he was letting them know that this had not yet taken place. The RAPTURE of the Body of Christ must take place BEFORE Christ can come back to the EARTH to resume His plan and program with Israel.

STUDYING to show yourself approved unto GOD, a workman that needeth NOT to be ashameed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING the Word of truth IS indeed the answer to most of the seemingly perplexing questions asked here. Its NOT rocket science! It does, however, take study. God says so. It would be easy if we would all simply believe it and DO it, wouldnt ya think?

 

[WAB]

My point exactly... the Rapture must take place prior to (or at the same time?) the Lord's return to earth.

My own conviction is that in the light of 1 Thess. 4:13-18... "...I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep (died), lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep (have died) in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words." (Note that Paul includes himself as a potential "remainer" with other Believers).

My own conviction is that "the coming" and "our gathering together to Him" of 2 Thess.2:1... is one event.

Shalom... WAB

 

[eph3Nine]

My point exactly... the Rapture must take place prior to (or at the same time?) the Lord's return to earth.

If you take "the day of the Lord" and look it up, you will find that the majority of references TO it are all found in the OT. Thats because it is a PROPHETIC EVENT- that is to say - it was something ISRAEL was promised...a coming BACK to the EARTH.

Since her (Israel) program still has an additional seven years to run and has been INTERRUPTED with Gods MYSTERY plan, when God is finished gathering all those who will be members of His BODY (mystery truth, and NOT prophetic) there will take place an event found ONLY in the MYSTERY information contained in Pauls epistles/ie:the RAPTURE. NOTE: we are taken to meet OUR LORD IN THE AIR...not on the earth...where we shall ever be with the Lord.

The next step is, which has been promised to them by God Himself. For THIS to occur, the DAY OF THE LORD must take place, which IS nothing less than the RETURN TO EARTH.

They (Israel)are His EARTHLY people with earthly promises and an earthly inheritance. WE (the Body of Christ), on the OTHER hand, are His heavenly people with promises and a calling of a heavenly nature.

That is why these two events cannot and WILL NOT occur at the same time, and why they are NOT one event but TWO. God is NOT YET finished with His plan with the Nation Israel.

 

[ddub85]

My take is a little different. I believe the second coming of Christ will take place before the wrath of God, but after the Great Tribulation.

That being said, obviously I think the Great Tribulation and the wrath of God are two different things at two different times. The misunderstanding and confusion regarding these two things has created much confusion.

God Bless!

 

[eph3Nine]

My take is a little different. I believe the second coming of Christ will take place before the wrath of God, but after the Great Tribulation.

That being said, obviously I think the Great Tribulation and the wrath of God are two different things at two different times. The misunderstanding and confusion regarding these two things has created much confusion.

God Bless!

Interesting. Since the wrath of God has to DO with the resumption of Gods plan with Israel and her remaining ONE of FIVE courses of curses found in Lev. 26, why would these be TWO events? They are one in the same. Wrath=THE great Tribulation=Jacobs Time of Trouble.

We, who are His Body are told that "we are not appointed unto wrath", and this is why the RAPTURE is a very real hope for us. The RAPTURE must happen BEFORE God again resumes His dealings with Israel and completes their program of blessings and cursings that they signed UP for with Him.

 

[WAB]

If you take "the day of the Lord" and look it up, you will find that the majority of references TO it are all found in the OT. Thats because it is a PROPHETIC EVENT- that is to say - it was something ISRAEL was promised...a coming BACK to the EARTH.

Since her (Israel) program still has an additional seven years to run and has been INTERRUPTED with Gods MYSTERY plan, when God is finished gathering all those who will be members of His BODY (mystery truth, and NOT prophetic) there will take place an event found ONLY in the MYSTERY information contained in Pauls epistles/ie:the RAPTURE. NOTE: we are taken to meet OUR LORD IN THE AIR...not on the earth...where we shall ever be with the Lord.

The next step is, which has been promised to them by God Himself. For THIS to occur, the DAY OF THE LORD must take place, which IS nothing less than the RETURN TO EARTH.

They (Israel)are His EARTHLY people with earthly promises and an earthly inheritance. WE (the Body of Christ), on the OTHER hand, are His heavenly people with promises and a calling of a heavenly nature.

That is why these two events cannot and WILL NOT occur at the same time, and why they are NOT one event but TWO. God is NOT YET finished with His plan with the Nation Israel.

Boy oh boy... more twisting! You imply that anything found in the O.T. was/is applicable only to the Jews/nation of Israel. Does that include all of the 300 plus prophecies re the coming of Messiah/Christ?

Is every prophetic event a promise/prediction applicable only to Israel?

Yes... there are many references to the "day of the Lord" in the O.T. But... the reference given in the post you are so adamantly opposed to was written by Paul, and in 1Thess. 5:2 Paul mentions "...the day of the Lord..." and then a bit further on Paul says... "But you, brethren, are not in darkness so that this Day should overtake you as a thief." Do you think that because these two mentions of the "day of the Lord" are separated by one verse that they do not refer to the same day???

It is a really good thing that the Lord is patient with His children, is it not?

Shalom... WAB

 

[WarrenM]

Hello, my name is Warren. This is my first post on the website. I have a question that I have not been given a solid answer to.
Is there any other documentation that supports the idea that Revelation was written after 90A.D.,other than the statement concerning the identity of the anitchrist made by Iranaeus?
If not, then I have a hard time basing my belief from a Dispensationalist view solely on a single statement from an author who, by the way, has not been found to be very credible. Iranaeus also states in his writings that he believed Jesus to be between the age of 40 to 50 when he was crucified. There are several other issues with taking Iranaeus at his word.

 

[eph3Nine]

Boy oh boy... more twisting! You imply that anything found in the O.T. was/is applicable only to the Jews/nation of Israel. Does that include all of the 300 plus prophecies re the coming of Messiah/Christ?

My dear WAB. We gentiles in that time were "dogs", "strangers to the covenants", "aliens to the commonwealth of Israel", "without hope" and "without God" (Eph 2:11) Jesus Himself said that He came EXCLUSIVELY to the Lost sheep of the House of Israel in His earthly ministry...was He LYING?

Prophecy was God's promises to the Nation Israel...NOT to we gentiles. Do you BELIEVE THE WORD OF GOD?

The coming MESSIAH was a promise to Israel and she knew it well. She still continued in UNBELIEF until God set her ASIDE.

PROPHECY is for Israel and has to do with Gods plan to restore His reign and rule on the EARTH. Is it still TRUE. Most CERTAINLY. Does it apply to you by osmosis? Most certainly NOT.

Why?

Because YOU, as a member of the Body of Christ are under a DIFFERENT apostle (not Peter and the twelve but PAUL), a DIFFERENT message (not law but GRACE) and a different program (YOU are not an extension of Israel but a BRAND NEW CREATION...)

Is every prophetic event a promise/prediction applicable only to Israel?

In a Word.....Yes. Prophecy has to DO with Israel. The prophetic program has been temporarily SET ASIDE with the NATION, and will be resumed at a future time. We are CURRENTLY in Gods MYSTERY program...NOT the prophetic one. The MYSTERY has to do with all the information God revealed to PAUL that was heretofore HID IN GOD, and KEPT SECRET! It has to do with a NEW program, new information and a NEW CREATION which happens to BE none other than US...the BODY OF CHRIST.

See how much you MISS when you refuse to rightly divide?

Yes... there are many references to the "day of the Lord" in the O.T. But... the reference given in the post you are so adamantly opposed to was written by Paul, and in 1Thess. 5:2 Paul mentions "...the day of the Lord..." and then a bit further on Paul says... "But you, brethren, are not in darkness so that this Day should overtake you as a thief." Do you think that because these two mentions of the "day of the Lord" are separated by one verse that they do not refer to the same day???

It is a really good thing that the Lord is patient with His children, is it not?

Shalom... WAB

If you read the post having to do with this issue, you would SEE the explanation. Paul was comparing , if you LOOK AT THE CONTEXT. He didnt mention it to teach a program he wasnt commissioned to preach, but to show the DIFFERENCE between prophecy and mystery.

There WILL be two separate events. One is the coming of the Lord in the air for his BODY, the church of this present age. The other is the coming of the Lord to the earth to resume His program with Israel which is yet a future event, and which wont take place until AFTER we who are His church today are long gone!

And to answer your question...yes. It IS wonderful that the Lord is indeed patient with those who refuse to STUDY His Word in its entirety in order to understand why He found it necessary to have TWO programs.

Peter = circumcision/earthly program for the nation Israel/law

Paul = uncircumcision/heavenly program for we the Body of Christ/jew and gentile/GRACE

 

[ddub85]

@ Eph3nine

Interesting. Since the wrath of God has to DO with the resumption of Gods plan with Israel and her remaining ONE of FIVE courses of curses found in Lev. 26, why would these be TWO events?

I don't believe the wrath of God has to do with the resumption. The tribulation has to do with the resumption, and wrath is the ending of man's rebellion towards God.

They are one in the same. Wrath=THE great Tribulation=Jacobs Time of Trouble.

I disagree. God has promised us tribulation, and has promised us we won't experience His wrath. Tribulation (including the Great Tribulation) is what man does to man. Wrath is what God brings directly upon man. God will allow man to lay his hands on man, but will not lay His own hands on His children. That is the difference.

We, who are His Body are told that "we are not appointed unto wrath", and this is why the RAPTURE is a very real hope for us.

Agreed.

The RAPTURE must happen BEFORE God again resumes His dealings with Israel and completes their program of blessings and cursings that they signed UP for with Him

I say the Great Tribulation, which isn't the wrath of God, must happen before God again resumes His dealings with Israel. We have not been exempted from tribulation, but from wrath. The Great Tribulation, although great, is still tribulation (man's, Satan's doings), and not wrath (from the hand of God).

God Bless!

 

[eph3Nine]

@ Eph3nine


I don't believe the wrath of God has to do with the resumption. The tribulation has to do with the resumption, and wrath is the ending of man's rebellion towards God.

The wrath of God and the GREAT TRIBULATION ARE one in the same. How do I know? Because when you rightly divide Gods Word as He tells us to do, it clearly shows that we are NOW, currently, IN the Mystery or parenthetic program that has STOPPED ISRAELS program midstream. When we are RAPTURED, the timeclock will again start ticking for the nation Israel who IS expecting MORE WRATH, or the time of Jacobs
Trouble (not the time of the Body of Christs trouble.)

We ARE experiencing suffering and tribulation at PRESENT...as the church which is His body is promised it all over scripture. However, the GREAT TRIBULATION is said to contain things the world has NOT SEEN BEFORE or experienced...and since WE, the Body, are not appointed unto Wrath...and Israel , according to scripture still has seven years of it left to undergo according to her agreement with God...it stands to reason that when we are GONE< this Program that needs to be finished< WILL BE!


[quote}I disagree. God has promised us tribulation, and has promised us we won't experience His wrath. Tribulation (including the Great Tribulation) is what man does to man. Wrath is what God brings directly upon man. God will allow man to lay his hands on man, but will not lay His own hands on His children. That is the difference.[/quote]

The GREAT TRIBULATiON is Gods wrath upon Israel and is found in any nbr of places in the Word. I dont see ANY support that this event is what man does to man, but it IS supported to be the culmination of Gods program with Israel, which was temporarily SET ASIDE to usher in a MYSTERY program having to do with the establishment of A BODY which God is NOW forming.

I say the Great Tribulation, which isn't the wrath of God, must happen before God again resumes His dealings with Israel. We have not been exempted from tribulation, but from wrath. The Great Tribulation, although great, is still tribulation (man's, Satan's doings), and not wrath (from the hand of God).

God Bless!

There is NO scriptural support for your view. The GREAT TRIBULATION is not something promised to we the Body of Christ, and IS , in fact, Gods resumption of His plan with Israel. Anyone saved during that time will be saved according to the KINGDOM message and NOT the message we now have of GRACE.

While your scenario is interesting, it doesnt line up with the scriptures.

Grace and Peace