RAPTURE!! OR LEFT BEHIND????

[iamlamad]

You only take a portion of the passage and build a whole concept out of it:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is talking about the saved---not the lost. Where does it say that no one will know when this happens, that it is some sort of secret?
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

What is so secret about that? It doesn't say the Lord is going to whisper, He's going to shout, and blow a trump---nothing quiet about this. When He comes, He brings every angel with Him---all the dead who ever died in Christ will be resurrected. You think no one will notice??
Mat_25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat 24:30"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

What's so secret about this? He comes with EVERY angel--Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Nobody's home!!

You have not named the verse that says Jesus comes 7 years after His second coming. He takes the saved with Him at that coming---the living wicked are destroyed---it says the rest of the dead lived not again until after the 1000 years. Now---where does it say, 7 years after the 1000 years starts, He comes again? For who? He already has the saved---the wicked are dead until the 1000 years---who does He come for after 7 years?

Did I ever say it was secret? That part is myth. What it IS is SUDDEN, with no warning. It will probably be NOISY! A loud trumpet, and a loud shout. How can it be secret when suddenly perhaps half the world's population disappears? (I think all the kids of the world will go with the church.)
STOP! It does not say all the angels come in this passage! You are ad libbing!
OF COURSE it is for the saved: Paul tells us those who are IN CHRIST.

You think no one will notice?? OF COURSE the world will notice. Who ever said they wouldn't?

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, STOP! This is a different coming! You cannot force two comings into one. It won't work! Where do you find all the angels in 1 Thes.?

then shall he sit upon the throne WRONG coming! He does not sit on His throne until after the entire 70th week is finished: chapter 19. Paul's rapture is before the week begins. Did you not understand in chapter 5 Paul makes it very clear that we are out of here (raptured) BEFORE God's wrath? Where do we find His wrath beginning? At the 6th seal in Rev. 6. My friend, there will be OVER 7 years of TIME between chapter 6 and chapter 19. The verse that goes with the rapture is John 14: Remember that Jesus went to build us HOMES: places to call our OWN when we arrive in heaven? He comes FOR his saints (rapture) then takes His bride back to the homes he as prepared. There we will await His wrath poured out and then return WITH HIM after the trib is finished.

when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. Nobody's home!!
WRONG! Every one is "home" but God is about to begin judgment: He will silence everyone in heaven just before judgment begins with the trumpets.

You have not named the verse that says Jesus comes 7 years after His second coming. Revelation 19.

He takes the saved with Him at that coming---the living wicked are destroyed
No, He brings the saved WITH HIM at His Rev. 19 coming to Armageddon. This is also when the parable of the tares will take place and the sheep and goat judgment: AFTER the week and AFTER He descends on the white horse. Notice in Rev. 19 He comes to earth - to war. Notice in 1 Thes. He STOPS in the air and in the clouds. He does not touch down, but rather takes His bride to the Homes prepared. His next two comings will be over 7 years apart. All the events from Chapters 8 through 18 will take place between His next two comings.

it says the rest of the dead lived not again until after the 1000 years. That would be the wicked dead. All the righteous are included in the first and most honorable resurrection - including Jesus Himself.

Now---where does it say, 7 years after the 1000 years starts, He comes again? For who? It does not say that. You got that part really mixed up.

First, WHERE does the 1000 years begin? It will begin at the exact midpoint of the 70th week. That is when Satan is cast down and the kingdoms of the world are given back to their right owner: Jesus Christ. But before He comes as shown in Rev. 19, there will be 3.5 years of hell on earth. (The days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of) He is not coming "for" anyone but the Jews who the Antichrist Beast is trying to kill! He is going to save them from the Beast.

 

[iamlamad]

No. I disagree with your lame ideas

This is not true: you disagreed with every translation of 1 Thes. 4:17. You said as much.

 

[BABerean2]

Did I ever say it was secret? That part is myth. What it IS is SUDDEN, with no warning. It will probably be NOISY! A loud trumpet, and a loud shout. How can it be secret when suddenly perhaps half the world's population disappears? (I think all the kids of the world will go with the church.)
STOP! It does not say all the angels come in this passage! You are ad libbing!
OF COURSE it is for the saved: Paul tells us those who are IN CHRIST.

You think no one will notice?? OF COURSE the world will notice. Who ever said they wouldn't?

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, STOP! This is a different coming! You cannot force two comings into one. It won't work! Where do you find all the angels in 1 Thes.?

then shall he sit upon the throne WRONG coming! He does not sit on His throne until after the entire 70th week is finished: chapter 19. Paul's rapture is before the week begins. Did you not understand in chapter 5 Paul makes it very clear that we are out of here (raptured) BEFORE God's wrath? Where do we find His wrath beginning? At the 6th seal in Rev. 6. My friend, there will be OVER 7 years of TIME between chapter 6 and chapter 19. The verse that goes with the rapture is John 14: Remember that Jesus went to build us HOMES: places to call our OWN when we arrive in heaven? He comes FOR his saints (rapture) then takes His bride back to the homes he as prepared. There we will await His wrath poured out and then return WITH HIM after the trib is finished.

when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. Nobody's home!!
WRONG! Every one is "home" but God is about to begin judgment: He will silence everyone in heaven just before judgment begins with the trumpets.

You have not named the verse that says Jesus comes 7 years after His second coming. Revelation 19.

He takes the saved with Him at that coming---the living wicked are destroyed
No, He brings the saved WITH HIM at His Rev. 19 coming to Armageddon. This is also when the parable of the tares will take place and the sheep and goat judgment: AFTER the week and AFTER He descends on the white horse. Notice in Rev. 19 He comes to earth - to war. Notice in 1 Thes. He STOPS in the air and in the clouds. He does not touch down, but rather takes His bride to the Homes prepared. His next two comings will be over 7 years apart. All the events from Chapters 8 through 18 will take place between His next two comings.

it says the rest of the dead lived not again until after the 1000 years. That would be the wicked dead. All the righteous are included in the first and most honorable resurrection - including Jesus Himself.

Now---where does it say, 7 years after the 1000 years starts, He comes again? For who? It does not say that. You got that part really mixed up.

First, WHERE does the 1000 years begin? It will begin at the exact midpoint of the 70th week. That is when Satan is cast down and the kingdoms of the world are given back to their right owner: Jesus Christ. But before He comes as shown in Rev. 19, there will be 3.5 years of hell on earth. (The days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of) He is not coming "for" anyone but the Jews who the Antichrist Beast is trying to kill! He is going to save them from the Beast.

Where is the trip back to heaven in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4, or 5?

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

A good site that leads to a site which completely debunks the futurist Dispensationalism view of a FUTURE rapture

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!

Also see: Rapture refuted

An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY:
INCLUDING A NARRATIVE OF THE CALAMITIES WHICH BEFEL THE JEWS
So far as they tend to verify OUR LORD'S PREDICTIONS Relative to that event.

"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation, if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)

PREFACE
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derive
======================================
Also see: Rapture refuted
Rapture Refuted! Pre-tribulation Rapture and Premillennialism Refuted Home page

50 ways Pre-millennialism contradicts the Bible

Introduction:
1. See our main Rapture page here.

2. Rapture so clearly contradicts the Bible in so many ways, we are puzzled how any Christian can think any of it comes from the bible.
3. Rapture doctrine is widely believed today, but it did not exist before it "popped" into John Darby's head in 1830 AD. If you believe in the Rapture, you probably wrongly assumed it was a historic Bible doctrine, when in fact it was born in the era of the cults (1830-1880 AD). Rapture doctrine is one of the most recent "new doctrines" in the history of the Church. The only doctrine more recent is the invention of the sinner's prayer for salvation by Billy Sunday in 1930, which was made popular by Billy Graham in 1935.
4. Here are 50 ways that Rapture doctrine contradicts the Bible.
5. Christians reject the rapture and rely upon the pages of the Bible alone as a sole source of conduct and doctrine. . Find a church that exposes the Rapture as a heresy in your own home town.

A. False assumptions of Rapture and premillennialism.
B. The Kingdom is the church: The Bible Vs. Premillennialism:
C. 14 ways that Premillennialism contradicts the bible:
D. Top Ten Errors of Pre-tribulation Rapture and Premillennialism:

PREMILLENNIALISM is a false Doctrine not found in the Bible
Introduction:
1. Now, what is Premillennialism? No two groups teach exactly alike, but all have major points of agreement.
a. The kingdom of the Old Testament prophecies has not been established, and we now have the "church phase."
b. God's promises to Abraham to make his seed a great nation are not yet fulfilled
c. Christ came to set up his kingdom, but he was thwarted in this, so set up the church instead, intending to return later to set up his kingdom.
d. The Jews as a nation will be converted and restored to Palestine.
e. Christ will return to earth, establish his kingdom, and reign for 1,000 years on David's literal throne in Jerusalem. There are many other factors, but these are the core ideas that drive Premillennialism.

I. Premillennialism teaches that god has guaranteed to restore the Israelites to Canaan and that not until then will the kingdom of Old Testament prophecy be set up or established

II. Most premillennialists teach that Christ intended to set up his kingdom while on earth, but the Jews would not allow him to do so. Ergo he returned to the father, set up the church as a substitute, and when the Jews are ready, he will return and establish the original kingdom

III. Premillennialism teaches that the righteous dead will be raised when Christ returns, and that the unrighteous dead will be raised at the end of his reign, at least 1000 yrs later

IV. Premillennialism teaches that after the 2nd coming, Christ and his saints will reign over all the earth for 1000 yrs.

Conclusion:

These are not all, but just a few of the glaring contradictions between Premillennialism and the Bible. Let us not be misled by materialistic, Christ-dethroning and Scripture-denying theories and speculations of men. But let us serve him who is now King of kings, who is reigning over his kingdom, and preparing a place for his people. (John 14:1-3) By serving him now, we will be prepared for the judgment to come. "And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment" (Heb 9:27). There will be no second chance—this will happen once.
=======================
Rapture Refuted! Pre-tribulation Rapture and Premillennialism Refuted Home page

Introduction:

1. Rapture doctrine is widely believed today, but it did not exist before it "popped" into John Darby's head in 1830 AD. If you believe in the Rapture, you probably wrongly assumed it was a historic Bible doctrine, when in fact it was born in the era of the cults (1830-1880 AD).
2. Rapture doctrine is one of the most recent "new doctrines" in the history of the Church. The only doctrine more recent is the invention of the sinner's prayer for salvation by Billy Sunday in 1930, which was made popular by Billy Graham in 1935.
3. Rapture promoters usually claim to have inspiration, are prophets, apostles, "the Elijah", have special illumination from the Holy Spirit and that God has revealed new doctrines not previously known by anyone, including the apostle Paul himself. They believe in..
4. There are two types of false teachers who promote Rapture: "Date setters" like Camping whose DATE is not the rapture but their own self-extinction on the world religious stage... if they are honest. "Date Teasers" like Jack Van Impe are cowards who promote the end as being VERY VERY soon, but never specific, in order to keep the hundreds of millions of dollars flowing.
5. Christians reject the rapture and rely upon the pages of the Bible alone as a sole source of conduct and doctrine.
. Find a church that exposes the Rapture as a heresy in your own home town.

6. See also: What will happen at the End of The World?
7. See also: Will There Be A Rapture?
8. See also: Who is the Anti-Christ???
9. See also: All the dead will be raised at same moment, not 1000 apart.

 

[mmksparbud]

Did I ever say it was secret? That part is myth. What it IS is SUDDEN, with no warning. It will probably be NOISY! A loud trumpet, and a loud shout. How can it be secret when suddenly perhaps half the world's population disappears? (I think all the kids of the world will go with the church.)
STOP! It does not say all the angels come in this passage! You are ad libbing!
OF COURSE it is for the saved: Paul tells us those who are IN CHRIST.

You think no one will notice?? OF COURSE the world will notice. Who ever said they wouldn't?

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, STOP! This is a different coming! You cannot force two comings into one. It won't work! Where do you find all the angels in 1 Thes.?

then shall he sit upon the throne WRONG coming! He does not sit on His throne until after the entire 70th week is finished: chapter 19. Paul's rapture is before the week begins. Did you not understand in chapter 5 Paul makes it very clear that we are out of here (raptured) BEFORE God's wrath? Where do we find His wrath beginning? At the 6th seal in Rev. 6. My friend, there will be OVER 7 years of TIME between chapter 6 and chapter 19. The verse that goes with the rapture is John 14: Remember that Jesus went to build us HOMES: places to call our OWN when we arrive in heaven? He comes FOR his saints (rapture) then takes His bride back to the homes he as prepared. There we will await His wrath poured out and then return WITH HIM after the trib is finished.

when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. Nobody's home!!
WRONG! Every one is "home" but God is about to begin judgment: He will silence everyone in heaven just before judgment begins with the trumpets.

You have not named the verse that says Jesus comes 7 years after His second coming. Revelation 19.

He takes the saved with Him at that coming---the living wicked are destroyed
No, He brings the saved WITH HIM at His Rev. 19 coming to Armageddon. This is also when the parable of the tares will take place and the sheep and goat judgment: AFTER the week and AFTER He descends on the white horse. Notice in Rev. 19 He comes to earth - to war. Notice in 1 Thes. He STOPS in the air and in the clouds. He does not touch down, but rather takes His bride to the Homes prepared. His next two comings will be over 7 years apart. All the events from Chapters 8 through 18 will take place between His next two comings.

it says the rest of the dead lived not again until after the 1000 years. That would be the wicked dead. All the righteous are included in the first and most honorable resurrection - including Jesus Himself.

Now---where does it say, 7 years after the 1000 years starts, He comes again? For who? It does not say that. You got that part really mixed up.

First, WHERE does the 1000 years begin? It will begin at the exact midpoint of the 70th week. That is when Satan is cast down and the kingdoms of the world are given back to their right owner: Jesus Christ. But before He comes as shown in Rev. 19, there will be 3.5 years of hell on earth. (The days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of) He is not coming "for" anyone but the Jews who the Antichrist Beast is trying to kill! He is going to save them from the Beast.

Sorry---it has ben the accepted idea that the rapture would be secret by most who believe in this concept. It is what was portrayed in the Left Behind books and movies. It is obviously not a secret.
As for when does the 1000 year begin? It says when:

Rev_20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
It is at the 1st resurrection. You are free to believe otherwise----we will all find out soon enough.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

iamlamad said: ↑
Not according to any "theory" but according to the written word of God. 1 thes. 5, along with the great crowd too large to number in Rev. 7. Along with that, the knowledge that the 70th week (the 'trib) is marked by 7's: it begins with the 7th seal, and ends with the 7th trumpet. Also the knowledge that the raptured church will be the biggest by far crowd of all crowds in Revelation. Add to that the fact that a posttrib rapture is made impossible by other verses.
He came once, right? So his NEXT coming will be His second, right? If He comes FOR His saints the next coming, and they returns WITH His saints 7 years later, I could that coming (Armageddon) as His THIRD (3rd) coming.
I gave the verses, why deny them? Let me go back and look...

NONE of your verses aligns with 1 Thes. 4:17 about the rapture. I did not deny them, I ignored them. What do you do with the verses about us coming WITH HIM t the earth? Say for example the armies of heaven coming with Him, and He is coming with 10,000s of His saints? Not to mention Rev. 20 where John saw thrones and people ON those thrones. WE are there...or will be...and it is on earth.
So where does it say there is a 7 year tribulation during the 1000 years? What do you think Rev. chapters 8 through 16 are about? That is the 70th week. (The truth is, the change in Millenniums will be at the midpoint of the Week, so half of the "trib" will be in this 1000 years and the second half will be in the new Millennium. )

mmksparbud said: ↑
You only take a portion of the passage and build a whole concept out of it:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is talking about the saved---not the lost. Where does it say that no one will know when this happens, that it is some sort of secret?
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

What is so secret about that? It doesn't say the Lord is going to whisper, He's going to shout, and blow a trump---nothing quiet about this. When He comes, He brings every angel with Him---all the dead who ever died in Christ will be resurrected. You think no one will notice??
Mat_25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat 24:30"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

What's so secret about this? He comes with EVERY angel--Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Nobody's home!!

You have not named the verse that says Jesus comes 7 years after His second coming. He takes the saved with Him at that coming---the living wicked are destroyed---it says the rest of the dead lived not again until after the 1000 years. Now---where does it say, 7 years after the 1000 years starts, He comes again? For who? He already has the saved---the wicked are dead until the 1000 years---who does He come for after 7 years?

iamlamad said: ↑
Did I ever say it was secret? That part is myth. What it IS is SUDDEN, with no warning. It will probably be NOISY! A loud trumpet, and a loud shout. How can it be secret when suddenly perhaps half the world's population disappears? (I think all the kids of the world will go with the church.)

STOP! It does not say all the angels come in this passage! You are ad libbing!
OF COURSE it is for the saved: Paul tells us those who are IN CHRIST.

Sorry---it has ben the accepted idea that the rapture would be secret by most who believe in this concept. It is what was portrayed in the Left Behind books and movies. It is obviously not a secret.
As for when does the 1000 year begin? It says when:

Rev_20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
It is at the 1st resurrection. You are free to believe otherwise----we will all find out soon enough.

The SDAs appear to be in the post-mill camp.......
Which I agree with, as I am a Preterist post-trib , pre-wrath-70ad

https://www.quora.com/Do-Seventh-Da...ribulation-period-just-before-final-judgement


Michael Prewitt, armchair theologian
Answered May 3, 2015 · Author has 142 answers and 836.4k answer views
The SDA Church is squarely in the "post-tribulation" camp. Furthermore, it rarely uses the words "rapture" or "tribulation" in doctrinal presentations, due to likely confusion with the somewhat prevalent "secret rapture" and "pre-tribulation" doctrines. The pastors and evangelists of the SDA Church generally prefer the terms "Second Coming" and "Time of Trouble." The official stance is that the Second Coming will be a visible, worldwide event at the end of the Time of Trouble, which all believers at that time will remain on earth to experience.

===============================

John Roberts, LDS Church Mission
Updated Jun 3, 2018 · Author has 1.2k answers and 427.1k answer views

The pre-tribulation rapture is a myth, and the SDA, Latter-day Saints (Mormons) and other religions that teach latter-day fulfillment, reject it.

According to the scriptures, Jesus returns after the attack by Gog on the Jews (see Ezekiel 38–39, Zechariah 12–14, Revelation 11). Jesus descends from the heavens onto the Mount of Olives. The Jews, who flee into the valley made by the earthquake caused by the Lord’s coming. Zechariah writes:


If there is any pre-tribulation rapture, it’s not in scripture. Some have suggested that there must be a pre-trib rapture because otherwise God’s servants would be forced to receive the mark of the Beast. That’s deductive reasoning and sadly for them, it’s not anything found in the scriptures.

Jesus returns to the earth, destroys his enemies and ministers to the Jews. The saints appear with him, but the narrative doesn’t say anything about the saints accompanying him to the ground. And it certainly doesn’t say anything about a rapture three and a half years (or seven years) earlier.

The lack of a rapture before the return of Christ is never mentioned anywhere in the Bible. It is a human invention.
========================

Joshua King
Answered Jan 21, 2018 · Author has 2.4k answers and 179.2k answer views
No SDA’s do not believe in pre-tribulation rapture, neither do they believe there will be a seven-year tribulation. The Seven year tribulation is an interpretation based on Daniel 9:26–27, which people try to link it to Revelation 13:1–8. There are major issues with the supposed seven year tribulation. Among which people would know when Jesus would return, a contradiction of the words of Jesus himself.

1.2k views · View 6 Upvoters

Gregory Matthews, studied Biology & Religion (1963)
Answered Jan 2, 2018 · Author has 1.4k answers and 331k answer views
Seventh-day Adventists do not believe that the Bible teaches what is commonly called the Rapture and a 7-year period of tribulation.

SDAs do believe in a time of great trouble for Christians, not a 7-year period, in which God will sustain those who are Christians, that will occur prior to the 2nd Advent of Christ.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

...................
I held to a rapture theology for many years, and now my view is more that God can do whatever He decides in His own time but from what I see, I think it safer to prepare to go through a really difficult time than to think we may escape

Gotta be in that BOOK.........

Daniel 12:1"And in that time/season Michael shall stand-up, the great chief prince, the one standing over sons of thy people. And a time of distress/tribulation<06869>, which not occurred since to become of a nation until that time. And in that time, thy people escape<4422>,
everyone being found written in the Scroll. [Luke 21:23-36]

The word "TRIBULATION" does not occur in Luke's Gospel.

Has anyone noticed that?

What's Daniel say when translated from the Septuagint?

Fulfilled in 70ad

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching in every season, beseeching that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming, and to stand before the Son of the Man.

[Written pre 70ad]

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape<1628>.[Daniel 12:1]

 

[charsan]

This is not true: you disagreed with every translation of 1 Thes. 4:17. You said as much.

No, I disagree with your fantasy

 

[iamlamad]

No, I disagree with your fantasy

I have no fantasy: I believe just what 1 Thes. 4:17 tells us, those who are alive and in Christ are going to be snatched up to meet with those who were dead in Christ and raised - they TOGETHER we will fly up to meet Jesus in the clouds.

No one in their right mind can refute what this verse says. It is in black and white and provided by His blood.

 

[iamlamad]

The SDAs appear to be in the post-mill camp.......
Which I agree with, as I am a Preterist post-trib , pre-wrath-70ad

https://www.quora.com/Do-Seventh-Da...ribulation-period-just-before-final-judgement


Michael Prewitt, armchair theologian
Answered May 3, 2015 · Author has 142 answers and 836.4k answer views
The SDA Church is squarely in the "post-tribulation" camp. Furthermore, it rarely uses the words "rapture" or "tribulation" in doctrinal presentations, due to likely confusion with the somewhat prevalent "secret rapture" and "pre-tribulation" doctrines. The pastors and evangelists of the SDA Church generally prefer the terms "Second Coming" and "Time of Trouble." The official stance is that the Second Coming will be a visible, worldwide event at the end of the Time of Trouble, which all believers at that time will remain on earth to experience.

===============================

John Roberts, LDS Church Mission
Updated Jun 3, 2018 · Author has 1.2k answers and 427.1k answer views

The pre-tribulation rapture is a myth, and the SDA, Latter-day Saints (Mormons) and other religions that teach latter-day fulfillment, reject it.

According to the scriptures, Jesus returns after the attack by Gog on the Jews (see Ezekiel 38–39, Zechariah 12–14, Revelation 11). Jesus descends from the heavens onto the Mount of Olives. The Jews, who flee into the valley made by the earthquake caused by the Lord’s coming. Zechariah writes:


If there is any pre-tribulation rapture, it’s not in scripture. Some have suggested that there must be a pre-trib rapture because otherwise God’s servants would be forced to receive the mark of the Beast. That’s deductive reasoning and sadly for them, it’s not anything found in the scriptures.

Jesus returns to the earth, destroys his enemies and ministers to the Jews. The saints appear with him, but the narrative doesn’t say anything about the saints accompanying him to the ground. And it certainly doesn’t say anything about a rapture three and a half years (or seven years) earlier.

The lack of a rapture before the return of Christ is never mentioned anywhere in the Bible. It is a human invention.
========================

Joshua King
Answered Jan 21, 2018 · Author has 2.4k answers and 179.2k answer views
No SDA’s do not believe in pre-tribulation rapture, neither do they believe there will be a seven-year tribulation. The Seven year tribulation is an interpretation based on Daniel 9:26–27, which people try to link it to Revelation 13:1–8. There are major issues with the supposed seven year tribulation. Among which people would know when Jesus would return, a contradiction of the words of Jesus himself.

1.2k views · View 6 Upvoters

Gregory Matthews, studied Biology & Religion (1963)
Answered Jan 2, 2018 · Author has 1.4k answers and 331k answer views
Seventh-day Adventists do not believe that the Bible teaches what is commonly called the Rapture and a 7-year period of tribulation.

SDAs do believe in a time of great trouble for Christians, not a 7-year period, in which God will sustain those who are Christians, that will occur prior to the 2nd Advent of Christ.

So WHAT do you do with 1 thes. 4:17? Is it history? Is it future? Do you believe it?

 

[iamlamad]

Sorry---it has ben the accepted idea that the rapture would be secret by most who believe in this concept. It is what was portrayed in the Left Behind books and movies. It is obviously not a secret.
As for when does the 1000 year begin? It says when:

Rev_20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
It is at the 1st resurrection. You are free to believe otherwise----we will all find out soon enough.

Rev_20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
You think this verse tells us when the millennium change will come? Do you imagine that this resurrection happens right here in the time of this verse?

 

[mmksparbud]

Rev_20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
You think this verse tells us when the millennium change will come? Do you imagine that this resurrection happens right here in the time of this verse?

The first resurrection is at the return of Jesus. That starts the 1000 years.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The first resurrection is at the return of Jesus. That starts the 1000 years.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Descend..........

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

2597. katabaino from 2596 and the base of 939;
to descend (literally or figuratively):--come (get, go, step) down, fall (down).
2596. kata a primary particle;
(prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined):
939. basis from baino
(to walk); a pace ("base"), i.e. (by implication) the foot:--foot.

Verb - Future Indicative Middle - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 2597: To go down, come down, either from the sky or from higher land, descend. From kata and the base of basis; to descend.

1 Thess 4:16
That Himself, the Lord, in a calling-forth in Voice of Chief-Messenger and in trumpet of God, shall be descending/down-stepping<καταβήσεται 2597> from heaven, and the dead-ones/nekroi <3498> in Christ shall be resurrecting/standing-up/ana-sthsontai <450> first,

1 exact Greek match

Romans 10:7
or, 'Who shall descend/down-step<καταβήσεται 2597> to the Abyss,' that is, Christ out of the dead to be leading up<321>.

321. anago an-ag'-o from 303 and 71;
to lead up; by extension to bring out; specially, to sail away:--bring (again, forth, up again), depart, launch (forth), lead (up), loose, offer, sail, set forth, take up
====================================
The Abyss is an interesting study:
Please visit my "ABYSS" thread......

What about the Abyss in Revelation?

Here are all the verses in Revelation that mentions the "abyss". [2 other places mention the abyss].
What kind of chronological order should these verses be put in and what period of time elapses between events.

For example, in Revelation 11 during the 2 witnesses preaching the Gospel, the beast hasn't yet come out of the abyss so I would think this should be first in order?
Just trying to figure this out. Any thoughts on this?

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
G2597
κατάβα — 1x καταβαίνει — 2x καταβαίνειν — 1x καταβαινέτω — 1x καταβαῖνον — 7x καταβαίνοντα — 3x καταβαίνοντας — 1x καταβαίνοντες — 1x καταβαίνοντος — 1x καταβαινόντων — 2x καταβαίνουσα — 1x καταβαίνουσαν — 3x καταβαίνων — 2x καταβὰν — 1x καταβάντες — 2x Καταβάντι — 1xmκαταβὰς — 8x καταβάς — 3x καταβάτω — 4x καταβέβηκα — 2x καταβεβηκότες — 1x καταβῇ — 2x κατάβηθι — 4x καταβῆναι — 2x
καταβήσεται — 2x
κατέβαινεν — 3x κατέβη — 13x κατέβην — 1x κατέβησαν — 5x

STRONGS NT 2597: καταβαίνω
καταβαίνω; imperfect 3 person plural κατέβαινον; future καταβήσομαι; 2 aorist κατέβην, imperative κατάβηθι (Matthew 27:40; Luke 19:5; John 4:49; Acts 10:20) and κατάβα (Mark 15:30 (R G (where L T Tr WH participle καταβάς)), see ἀναβαίνω); perfect καταβέβηκα; (from Homer on); the Sept. for יָרַד; to go down, come down, descend;
1. of persons;
a. properly: absolutely, the place from which one has come down being evident from the context, καταβάς ἔστη, Luke 6:17 (cf. Luke 6:12); Luke 17:31 (followed here by an infinitive, so Matthew 24:17); Luke 19:5; John 5:7; Acts 20:10;

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

16. For the Lord Himself] “In His personal august presence” (Ellicott). Comp. 2 Thessalonians 2:16; 2 Thessalonians 3:16, for this kind of emphasis; also Ch. 1 Thessalonians 3:11, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, “God Himself:” in each case we feel the majesty with which God (or “the Lord”) rises above all human doings and desires.

with a shout] Strictly, word of command, or signal,—the shout with which the general gives the order to his troops, or the captain to his crew. Such “command” might be given either by voice,—his own or another’s; or through a trumpet: both are added here, to complete the Impressive picture,—With the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.

We must not look for literal exactness where things are depicted beyond the reach of sense. These three may form but one idea, that of “the voice of the Son of God,” by which the dead will be called forth (John 5:28), Christ’s “command” being expressed by an “archangel’s voice,” and that again constituting the “trumpet of God.” Christ predicted His return attended by angels (Matthew 24:31; Matthew 25:31; comp. 2 Thessalonians 1:7); and the Divine voice of the Book of Revelation is constantly uttered by an “angel,” or “mighty angel” (Revelation 5:2; Revelation 7:2; &c.). In the same Book voice and trumpet are identified, where St John describing the glorified Son of Man says, “I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet talking with me” (Revelation 1:10; Revelation 1:12; Revelation 4:1). This verse, like the above passages of the Apocalypse, echoes the words of Christ in Matthew 24:31 : “He shall send forth His angels with a trumpet of great voice.” In 1 Corinthians 15:52 the whole is described in one word: “The-trumpet-shall-sound, and the dead shall be raised.”

This is the military trumpet, like “word of command” above, by which the Lord of Hosts musters and marshals His array. Comp. ch. 1 Thessalonians 5:8, with its “breastplate” and “helmet;” see note. “As a Commander rouses his sleeping soldiers, so the Lord calls up His dead, and bids them shake off the fetters of the grave and rise anew to waking life” (Hofmann).

St Paul does not write “the Archangel,” as though pointing to some known Angelic Chief who is to blow this trumpet; his words are, with an archangel’s voice, indicating the majesty and power of the heavenly summons. This is the earliest example of the title archangel. In Judges 9 we read of “Michael the archangel”—an expression probably based on Daniel 12:1, “Michael the great prince” (LXX: “the great angel;” comp. Revelation 12:7, where “Michael and his angels” are arrayed against “the Dragon and his angels”). Of equal rank with Michael is Gabriel, the angel of comfort and good tidings in Daniel 8:16; Daniel 9:21, and Luke 1:19; Luke 1:26. The military style of this passage suits rather the character of Michael. Amongst the seven chief angels recognised at this time in Jewish teaching, Raphael stood nearest to the two that appear in the New Testament (Tob 12:15). St Paul probably ranged the Archangels amongst the Principalities (Greek Archai) to which he refers in Romans 8:38 (angels and principalities), Ephesians 1:21; Ephesians 3:10, Colossians 1:6; Colossians 2:10; Colossians 2:15. See the Article on Angels in Smith’s Dictionary of Christian Antiquities.

the Lord Himself, &c.… will descend from heaven. See note on ch. 1 Thessalonians 1:10. These words close the sentence, the accompaniments of the descent being first described, and then the descent itself, with solemn brevity and an effect of peculiar grandeur.

and the dead in Christ] This gives us the key to the Apostle’s meaning throughout. Being “in Christ,” having died as they lived in Him, nothing can part them from Him, “neither death nor life” (Romans 8:38). And when He returns in bodily presence, their bodies must rise to meet Him and do Him homage.

shall rise first] Not before the other dead, as though theirs were a select and separate resurrection (comp. John 5:28-29); the antithesis is plainly given in the next verse,—“first,” i.e. before the living saints: “we shall not take precedence of them, but rather they of us.”

 

[mmksparbud]

Rev_20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Abyss--abussos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a variation of G1037; depthless, that is, (specifically), (infernal) “abyss”: - deep, (bottomless) pit.

When Jesus comes for the saved, the earth is destroyed, left empty and desolate. The wicked are dead, the saved are with Jesus. The earth has a 1000 year Sabbath. 6 days labor, one day Sabbath; 6 years the land is productive, one year the land has a Sabbath; 6000 years, 1000 year Sabbath for the whole world.
Exo 23:10 And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
Exo 23:11 But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard.
Exo 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe_3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

This is the abyss--abussos--emptiness--that Satan and His angels will be bound to. They can go nowhere else.

 

[charsan]

they TOGETHER we will fly up to meet Jesus in the clouds.

This is added and part of the delusional false doctrine because it never says that. No I am not a duped individual who believes in a stupid idea of dispenstional rapture crap and I will not respond to anymore nonsense.

 

[BABerean2]

2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe_3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Put some salt in water and stir it up.
The salt will be "dissolved".
This happens to the earth in the passage below.
Peter was looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth, and I am looking for the same thing.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

.

 

[iamlamad]

The first resurrection is at the return of Jesus. That starts the 1000 years.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Don't be led astray by a poor English translation. We use the word first as in sequencing. This is not the intent of the Author. He is not saying that has never been a resurrection before this point in time in John's narrative. A better translation is the CHIEF of resurrections. Why? Because this resurrection is for ALL the righteous, including Jesus own resurrection.

Therefore, no one can point to this verse and say that the rapture of the church has to be here, because this would then be the second resurrection and not the first. It is first in priority and honor. It is for the righteous. The other resurrection is for the damned.

The truth is, Jesus was the firstfruits of THIS most honorable resurrection. The next wave will be the church caught up and changed. AFter that the 144,000. After that, the Old Testament Saints - each in their turn. All at different times, but all a part of this chief of resurrections.

Just because John mentions the thousand years does not mean it starts there. It only means at that time they are IN the new millennium.

The first resurrection is at the return of Jesus. NO. The first resurrection covers many resurrections over time: Jesus own being the firstfruits of this resurrection. This particular resurrection actually started almost 2000 years ago.

That starts the 1000 years. NO. You are mistaken.

Did you ever read what several old Jewish sages wrote - perhaps as long ago as Moses? They wrote that Adam got a 6000 year lease: so MAN would rule the world for the first 6000 years, then GOD would rule for the 7th thousand years.

Did you ever wonder why at the 7th trumpet the world is taken from Satan and given back to Jesus Christ - the real owner? Think about it! Satan usurped Adam's lease - but Adam's lease runs out - TERMINATES - at the end of the 6000 years. Suddenly Satan has no more legal hold to earth: the lease is gone! So earth is given back to Jesus Christ and Satan is cast down from the heavenlies. And the 7th millennium begins. WHERE? WHEN? At the 7th trumpet that sounds at the midpoint of the week.

 

[iamlamad]

This is added and part of the delusional false doctrine because it never says that. No I am not a duped individual who believes in a stupid idea of dispenstional rapture crap and I will not respond to anymore nonsense.

Here it is in Greek - the language it was written in:

1899 [e].........1473 [e]......3588 [e]........2198 [e]........3588 [e]
17 epeita........hēmeis........hoi................zōntes...........hoi
17 ἔπειτα.........ἡμεῖς..........οἱ..................ζῶντες...........οἱ
17 Then.........we..............the.............living..............-
17 Adv.......... PPro-N1P......Art-NMP.......V-PPA-NMP.....Art-NMP

4035 [e]..........260 [e]........4862 [e].......846 [e]...........726 [e]
perileipomenoi..hama...........syn..............autois.............harpagēsometha
περιλειπόμενοι..ἅμα..............σὺν..............αὐτοῖς.............ἁρπαγησόμεθα
remaining.......together.....with............them.............will be caught away
V-PPM/P-NMP....Adv.............Prep............PPro-DM3P......V-FIP-1P


I could have done the whole verse, but this will suffice. Now, what part of this Greek do you refuse to believe? What part of "will be caught away" can you not believe. If you cannot believe the written word of God, you are in serious trouble! How can you believe John 3:16? Maybe it is wrong. Why are these words so hard for you to believe?

 

[mmksparbud]

Don't be led astray by a poor English translation. We use the word first as in sequencing. This is not the intent of the Author. He is not saying that has never been a resurrection before this point in time in John's narrative. A better translation is the CHIEF of resurrections. Why? Because this resurrection is for ALL the righteous, including Jesus own resurrection.

Therefore, no one can point to this verse and say that the rapture of the church has to be here, because this would then be the second resurrection and not the first. It is first in priority and honor. It is for the righteous. The other resurrection is for the damned.

The truth is, Jesus was the firstfruits of THIS most honorable resurrection. The next wave will be the church caught up and changed. AFter that the 144,000. After that, the Old Testament Saints - each in their turn. All at different times, but all a part of this chief of resurrections.

Just because John mentions the thousand years does not mean it starts there. It only means at that time they are IN the new millennium.

The first resurrection is at the return of Jesus. NO. The first resurrection covers many resurrections over time: Jesus own being the firstfruits of this resurrection. This particular resurrection actually started almost 2000 years ago.

That starts the 1000 years. NO. You are mistaken.

Did you ever read what several old Jewish sages wrote - perhaps as long ago as Moses? They wrote that Adam got a 6000 year lease: so MAN would rule the world for the first 6000 years, then GOD would rule for the 7th thousand years.

Did you ever wonder why at the 7th trumpet the world is taken from Satan and given back to Jesus Christ - the real owner? Think about it! Satan usurped Adam's lease - but Adam's lease runs out - TERMINATES - at the end of the 6000 years. Suddenly Satan has no more legal hold to earth: the lease is gone! So earth is given back to Jesus Christ and Satan is cast down from the heavenlies. And the 7th millennium begins. WHERE? WHEN? At the 7th trumpet that sounds at the midpoint of the week.

Here it is in Greek - the language it was written in:

1899 [e].........1473 [e]......3588 [e]........2198 [e]........3588 [e]
17 epeita........hēmeis........hoi................zōntes...........hoi
17 ἔπειτα.........ἡμεῖς..........οἱ..................ζῶντες...........οἱ
17 Then.........we..............the.............living..............-
17 Adv.......... PPro-N1P......Art-NMP.......V-PPA-NMP.....Art-NMP

4035 [e]..........260 [e]........4862 [e].......846 [e]...........726 [e]
perileipomenoi..hama...........syn..............autois.............harpagēsometha
περιλειπόμενοι..ἅμα..............σὺν..............αὐτοῖς.............ἁρπαγησόμεθα
remaining.......together.....with............them.............will be caught away
V-PPM/P-NMP....Adv.............Prep............PPro-DM3P......V-FIP-1P


I could have done the whole verse, but this will suffice. Now, what part of this Greek do you refuse to believe? What part of "will be caught away" can you not believe. If you cannot believe the written word of God, you are in serious trouble! How can you believe John 3:16? Maybe it is wrong. Why are these words so hard for you to believe?

You are free to believe Donald Duck is the Messiah---won't change the facts. The 2nd coming of Jesus Christ will happen and the dead in Christ will rise first and then the living will rise up to meet them and Christ in the air.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

NOW, YOU CAN MESS AROUND WITH THIS ALL YOU WANT---IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL BE RAISED BY JESUS HIMSELF WITH A SHOUT AND THEN THE LIVING WILL GO UP TO MEET THEM. So far, that just plain has not happened.

I totally believe in the word of God---all of it---not just what I want to believe or what some pastor, or anyone else, has told me to believe. Either in Greek, Spanish or whatever language you want, Jesus comes again, the dead in Christ will be resurrected and then the living saints will all go up to the air---that starts the 1000 years. Believe whatever you want.

 

[charsan]

Here it is in Greek - the language it was written in:

1899 [e].........1473 [e]......3588 [e]........2198 [e]........3588 [e]
17 epeita........hēmeis........hoi................zōntes...........hoi
17 ἔπειτα.........ἡμεῖς..........οἱ..................ζῶντες...........οἱ
17 Then.........we..............the.............living..............-
17 Adv.......... PPro-N1P......Art-NMP.......V-PPA-NMP.....Art-NMP

4035 [e]..........260 [e]........4862 [e].......846 [e]...........726 [e]
perileipomenoi..hama...........syn..............autois.............harpagēsometha
περιλειπόμενοι..ἅμα..............σὺν..............αὐτοῖς.............ἁρπαγησόμεθα
remaining.......together.....with............them.............will be caught away
V-PPM/P-NMP....Adv.............Prep............PPro-DM3P......V-FIP-1P


I could have done the whole verse, but this will suffice. Now, what part of this Greek do you refuse to believe? What part of "will be caught away" can you not believe. If you cannot believe the written word of God, you are in serious trouble! How can you believe John 3:16? Maybe it is wrong. Why are these words so hard for you to believe?

I do not agree with your ridiculous devilish fantasies not the Bible. The devilish doctrines you believe were born in the 1800's and never existed in the early Church or the Early Church Father. Your ideas are heresy that was condemned along time ago by the Church called chiliasm. I agree with the verse but not your verynon Church flawed view of said verse. I will never ever agree with you for one I do not believe in Bible Alone or Sola Scriptura. I was last like you once grappling but God saved me from that devilish doctrine of which you buy into and many others. So stop worrying about me ad worry about you.