Rapture Before Wrath

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[TPeterY]

A new video is being produced which shows the true origin of the pretrib doctrine that many of us have been writing about for some time now.

Kirk Cameron, star of some of the "Left Behind" movies has now seen the truth and has come over to our side of the argument.

The trailer for the soon to be released video, is found in the link below.

Get ready for the sound of wailing and gnashing of teeth from the opposition.


Left Behind or Led Astray

Left Behind or Led Astray? Examining the Origins of the Secret Pre-Tribulation Rapture

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It also says below in big bold letters....

Pre-Order Your Copy Today!​

Click Here​

I would laugh my head off If Kirk Cameron said something like this in the future.

"Yeah I made this video to make some quick cash off those that poked fun at the "Left Behind" movie I made several years back. Now that they all bought into this new video and we sold millions of copies to them, I'll renounce my post-trib position and go back to pre-trib."


LOL

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[iamlamad]

It's common knowledge in the bible. If you didn't know that, what makes you think your theology is accurate and the truth?

Wow! Powerful truth here. Did you ever hear of the seven trumpet judgments?

 

[Bro in Christ]

question if we can be glorified in a twinkling of an eye at this very moment as 1 cor 15:51-53 state

how does matt 24 compute .... has to be pretrib to work

 

[BABerean2]

It also says below in big bold letters....

Pre-Order Your Copy Today!​

Click Here​

I would laugh my head off If Kirk Cameron said something like this in the future.

"Yeah I made this video to make some quick cash off those that poked fun at the "Left Behind" movie I made several years back. Now that they all bought into this new video and we sold millions of copies to them, I'll renounce my post-trib position and go back to pre-trib."


LOL

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We should all be laughing at the comment about making money from a doctrine. Especially after coming from a pretribber...

The shelves of church libraries and Christian homes are filled with "Left Behind" books and movies.

It is Tim LaHaye that should be laughing, all the way to the bank.

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[Bro in Christ]

Note that Matthew 24:30 refers only to unsaved people, who will be left on the ground, mourning at Jesus' 2nd coming,

matt 24:30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

not to saved people, who will be raptured (gathered together) into the sky (the 1st heaven) at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven (Mark 13:27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1)

mixing letter to jews under law vs grace believers

. Also, Matthew 24:30 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) referring only to unsaved Jews mourning, but to all unsaved people of all tribes (or kindreds) of the earth. For Matthew 24:30 means that everyone on the earth will see Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 1:7). The same Greek word translated as "tribes" in Matthew 24:30 is translated as "kindreds" in Revelation 1:7.

so what is it? seems you are talking from two sides of mouth ?

Note that the happy, or blessed, hope (Titus 2:13) is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, Jesus himself is the hope of believers (1 Timothy 1:1b), for he himself is eternal life (John 14:6), and only by believing in him can people have eternal life (John 3:36).

1 john 5:11-14 for us who believe ... part of the greater salvation offered

Law saints promise of Eternal life is explained in Daniel 12

very different promises

No Christians are hoping for the tribulation instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't hoping for birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).



Note that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

mixing letters to different believers with different promises

question... if in the body of Christ their is neither Jew or Gentile .... why is their a mention of saved jews at all

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18,19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus' New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37).

gal 5:18


But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there is no reason why any believer should ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after he had set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before he brought that promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

problem of mixing letters for presence tense salvation for both groups brings problems to why people state that bible is not true

But the BIBLE is true

 

[Bible2]

Bro in Christ said in post 669:

1 john 5:11-14 for us who believe ...

That's right.

But initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they are actually saved. And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, so a born-again person can't "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

Bro in Christ said in post 669:

Law saints promise of Eternal life is explained in Daniel 12

Daniel 12:1 will occur right after the future, tribulation events of Daniel 11:15-45, and will include the very last part of the tribulation, when the surviving Jews in Jerusalem (who could have been protected by the 2 witnesses during the preceding 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign: Revelation 11:3-13, Revelation 13:5-18) will be attacked immediately before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). This final attack will be the time of Jacob's trouble, which the Jews will be saved from (Jeremiah 30:7) at the 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:5).

Daniel 12:2 will occur at the church's resurrection at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For some in the church will lose their salvation at Jesus' 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Bro in Christ said in post 669:

question... if in the body of Christ their is neither Jew or Gentile .... why is their a mention of saved jews at all

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Note that in Galatians 3:28, Paul can't possibly mean that there are no believers who are Jews or Gentiles in any sense, because elsewhere he shows, for example, that believers remain either genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b). Similarly, Galatians 3:28 doesn't mean that there are no believers who are males or females in any sense, for clearly we are still males or females with regard to our genitals, and with regard to other matters (1 Timothy 2:11-12, 1 Corinthians 14:34-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-16, 1 Peter 3:7a).

So Galatians 3:28 can only mean that there is no distinction between believing Jews and Gentiles, or between believing males and females, with regard to them being "one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28b), in the sense of them being one body in Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6), without distinction with regard to their salvation (Romans 10:12; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 1 Peter 3:7b).

 

[Isaiah Jeremiah]

Wow! Powerful truth here. Did you ever hear of the seven trumpet judgments?

If you mean the book of Revelation, then yes.

 

[Interplanner]

B2 is pretty wordy so try this about the genders: if you believed circumcision was necessary to be saved, you're out of luck as a female...

 

[Danoh]

B2 is pretty wordy so try this about the genders: if you believed circumcision was necessary to be saved, you're out of luck as a female...

Oh, sure, like you actually read the end of Romans two based on Romans 1 and the balance of Romans 2. Come on, inter, you know you don't

 

[Rev20]

It's common knowledge in the bible. If you didn't know that, what makes you think your theology is accurate and the truth?

I believe the bible to be 100% accurate, and, of course, God is always right. Man, however, it typically wrong. For that reason the prophets, apostles, and children of God, generally, have been persecuted and/or murdered by the "spiritual elite" in societies. It would be no different today, except for restraining laws in reasonably civilized nations.

As for modern "interpretations" of the Old Testament, how would you interpret this verse if you did not have a New Testament to assist you:

"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones." -- Zec 13:7


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[shturt678s]

I believe the bible to be 100% accurate, and, of course, God is always right. Man, however, it typically wrong. For that reason the prophets, apostles, and children of God, generally, have been persecuted and/or murdered by the "spiritual elite" in societies. It would be no different today, except for restraining laws in reasonably civilized nations.

As for modern "interpretations" of the Old Testament, how would you interpret this verse if you did not have a New Testament to assist you:

"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones." -- Zec 13:7


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"I beleive the original bible (Autographs) to be 100% accurate."

Old Jack's opinion

 

[Bro in Christ]

That's right.

But initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they are actually saved. And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, so a born-again person can't "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

john 10:28-29
Phil 1:6
John 17:11

Daniel 12:1 will occur right after the future, tribulation events of Daniel 11:15-45, and will include the very last part of the tribulation, when the surviving Jews in Jerusalem (who could have been protected by the 2 witnesses during the preceding 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign: Revelation 11:3-13, Revelation 13:5-18) will be attacked immediately before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). This final attack will be the time of Jacob's trouble, which the Jews will be saved from (Jeremiah 30:7) at the 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:5).

Daniel 12:2 will occur at the church's resurrection at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For some in the church will lose their salvation at Jesus' 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).



Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Note that in Galatians 3:28, Paul can't possibly mean that there are no believers who are Jews or Gentiles in any sense, because elsewhere he shows, for example, that believers remain either genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b). Similarly, Galatians 3:28 doesn't mean that there are no believers who are males or females in any sense, for clearly we are still males or females with regard to our genitals, and with regard to other matters (1 Timothy 2:11-12, 1 Corinthians 14:34-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-16, 1 Peter 3:7a).

So Galatians 3:28 can only mean that there is no distinction between believing Jews and Gentiles, or between believing males and females, with regard to them being "one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28b), in the sense of them being one body in Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6), without distinction with regard to their salvation (Romans 10:12; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 1 Peter 3:7b).

Deal with verses ... Bible is always truth

 

[Isaiah Jeremiah]

I believe the bible to be 100% accurate, and, of course, God is always right. Man, however, it typically wrong. For that reason the prophets, apostles, and children of God, generally, have been persecuted and/or murdered by the "spiritual elite" in societies. It would be no different today, except for restraining laws in reasonably civilized nations.

As for modern "interpretations" of the Old Testament, how would you interpret this verse if you did not have a New Testament to assist you:

"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones." -- Zec 13:7


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Zech 13:7 is about Israel during the tribulation. Read Zech 13:7-9, this is not about the world.

This is like comparing apples to cheesecake, they're not the same subject.

 

[BABerean2]

Zech 13:7 is about Israel during the tribulation. Read Zech 13:7-9, this is not about the world.

This is like comparing apples to cheesecake, they're not the same subject.

Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.


What did Jesus say?

Mat_26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.


Mar_14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.


Christ is quoting Zech. 13:7 and He said it would happen that night.

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[Isaiah Jeremiah]

Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.


What did Jesus say?

Mat_26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.


Mar_14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.


Christ is quoting Zech. 13:7 and He said it would happen that night.

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And you don't know who the shepherd and sheeps are He was talking about.

What did Zechariah say?

Zechariah 13:8-9
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Who was Jesus talking about?

Matthew 26:31-32 KJV
31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.

Zech 13:8-9 and Matthew 26:31 are not the same. This is like comparing apples to cheesecake, they're not the same subject.

 

[TPeterY]

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[TPeterY]

Time for a toasties break.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdd8KAh-aEU


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