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Random mutations

CabVet

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I guess your idea of Culture is different than mine. Now they are suggesting that the ability to dance is genetic. Of course there are others that do not agree. For example:

"The success of 'Strictly Dance Fever' shows how far people are prepared to push themselves to succeed as dancers. But research from Israel suggests that some may have an advantage: they may be genetically better suited to dancing.
Richard Ebstein and colleagues studied 85 professional dancers and their parents, 91 athletes, and a control group of 'ordinary' people. They used questionnaires to test their personalities and looked at genetic variation around two genes known to affect social behaviour in animals: the serotonin transporter (SLC6A4) and the arginine vasopressin receptor 1a (AVPR1a).
The researchers found good correlations between dancers and personality measures such as the need for social contact and high spirituality, but also with variations around both the genes studied. Moreover, the personality traits also independently correlated with the genetic variation. The results, say the researchers, suggest that the genetic factors are promoting participation in dance, by influencing personality rather than body mechanics or coordination." Dancing gene | The Human Genome

Dancing is a cultural activity and a product of our culture, but the hypothesis above is not about the dancing activity, but about the ability to dance, which can be related to many heritable traits. This is very different from a cultural shift in society (like the change from hunting to farming that you mentioned).
 
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CabVet

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I could but the subject is to controversal to have a conversation about it on here. I still have a copy of the book: "Catching Fire: How Cooking Made Us Human by Richard W. Wrangham". But it turned out to be a lost cause trying to have a discussion about that book on here.

I meant to suggest readings about the theory of evolution, the very basics of it. The book you cite presents one hypothesis for human evolution, but does not discuss in detail the process of evolution. Something better to understand evolution would be: "Evolution: How we and all living things came to be" by Daniel Loxton.
 
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Zaius137

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Evolution does not originate from a random mutation. Random mutations produce variation within every population (black, white, asian people, etc). Evolution (or natural selection) eliminates variation that has a poor fitness and favors variation that has a good fitness.

Are all mutations under selection? Or is there some mutations that are silent?
 
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CabVet

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Are all mutations under selection? Or is there some mutations that are silent?

The building blocks of protein are amino-acids. Each amino-acid is coded by a three base combination. For example, the amino-acid glycine is coded by the combination of three Guanines (GGG). But most codes have some sort of redundancy to protect organisms against deleterious mutations. So, the third base of the codon (the three letter code) for glycine can change freely, and glycine will still be transcribed. Therefore, a mutation on the third position of a glycine codon would be silent (there would be no change in the amino-acid that it codes).

This is one level of redundancy, the other is that we have much more DNA than what we need to code all the genes that we express. So there are entire portions of our DNA that can change freely without (known) biological consequences.

The reason for all this redundancy is because most mutations are deleterious in a constant environment. But since every environment is dynamic, organisms cannot have a 100% fail safe genetic code, otherwise they would not have natural variation, and likely not survive any changes in the environment.
 
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Zaius137

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The building blocks of protein are amino-acids. Each amino-acid is coded by a three base combination. For example, the amino-acid glycine is coded by the combination of three Guanines (GGG). But most codes have some sort of redundancy to protect organisms against deleterious mutations. So, the third base of the codon (the three letter code) for glycine can change freely, and glycine will still be transcribed. Therefore, a mutation on the third position of a glycine codon would be silent (there would be no change in the amino-acid that it codes).

This is one level of redundancy, the other is that we have much more DNA than what we need to code all the genes that we express. So there are entire portions of our DNA that can change freely without (known) biological consequences.

The reason for all this redundancy is because most mutations are deleterious in a constant environment. But since every environment is dynamic, organisms cannot have a 100% fail safe genetic code, otherwise they would not have natural variation, and likely not survive any changes in the environment.

Are you aware of new evidence that those types of mutations you mention are being found deleterious to fitness?

Scientific American June 2009…

How Trivial DNA Changes Can Hurt Health

“Mysterious exceptions to the rule, in which silent changes seemed to be exerting a powerful effect on proteins, have revealed that such mutations can affect health through a variety of mechanisms.”

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-price-of-silent-mutations



Also according to the NCSE an organization that upholds evolution teaching in schools, natural selection is only a mechanism of evolution along with random mutation.

WHAT IS EVOLUTION?
In the biological sciences, evolution is a scientific theory that explains the emergence of new varieties of living things in the past and in the present; it is not a "theory of origins" about how life began. Evolution accounts for the striking patterns of similarities and differences among living things over time and across habitats through the action of biological processes such as natural selection, mutation, symbiosis, gene transfer, and genetic drift. Evolution has been subjected to scientific testing for over a century and has been (and continues to be) consistently confirmed by evidence from a wide range of fields.
So wouldn’t evolution be driven by random mutation?

So don’t you have this backward about the random mutations not driving evolution?

Your statement…

“Evolution does not originate from a random mutation.”
 
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rikerjoe

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The building blocks of protein are amino-acids. Each amino-acid is coded by a three base combination. For example, the amino-acid glycine is coded by the combination of three Guanines (GGG). But most codes have some sort of redundancy to protect organisms against deleterious mutations. So, the third base of the codon (the three letter code) for glycine can change freely, and glycine will still be transcribed. Therefore, a mutation on the third position of a glycine codon would be silent (there would be no change in the amino-acid that it codes).

This is one level of redundancy, the other is that we have much more DNA than what we need to code all the genes that we express. So there are entire portions of our DNA that can change freely without (known) biological consequences.

The reason for all this redundancy is because most mutations are deleterious in a constant environment. But since every environment is dynamic, organisms cannot have a 100% fail safe genetic code, otherwise they would not have natural variation, and likely not survive any changes in the environment.

Woah, complex answer to a simple question....

In short, yes, all mutations are under selection, BUT, if a mutation has no effect on the function it codes for, i.e is neutral, it will simply "slip through".
 
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CabVet

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Woah, complex answer to a simple question....

In short, yes, all mutations are under selection, BUT, if a mutation has no effect on the function it codes for, i.e is neutral, it will simply "slip through".

Sorry, I am trying to make this thread informative.
 
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CabVet

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So don’t you have this backward about the random mutations not driving evolution?

Your statement…

“Evolution does not originate from a random mutation.”

No, I don't have it backwards. To repeat an analogy that was already made, saying that random mutations drive evolution would be the same as saying that random rains drive the direction of rivers. Regardless of where the rain falls, rivers will always flow downstream. Regardless of where mutations land, deleterious mutations will be eliminated and advantageous ones will be fixed.
 
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OllieFranz

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Are all mutations under selection? Or is there some mutations that are silent?

The building blocks of protein are amino-acids. Each amino-acid is coded by a three base combination. For example, the amino-acid glycine is coded by the combination of three Guanines (GGG). But most codes have some sort of redundancy to protect organisms against deleterious mutations. So, the third base of the codon (the three letter code) for glycine can change freely, and glycine will still be transcribed. Therefore, a mutation on the third position of a glycine codon would be silent (there would be no change in the amino-acid that it codes).

This is one level of redundancy, the other is that we have much more DNA than what we need to code all the genes that we express. So there are entire portions of our DNA that can change freely without (known) biological consequences.

The reason for all this redundancy is because most mutations are deleterious in a constant environment. But since every environment is dynamic, organisms cannot have a 100% fail safe genetic code, otherwise they would not have natural variation, and likely not survive any changes in the environment.

A third, and more flexible, mechanism for minimizing the effect of mutations is the fact that we have two of each gene (with the exception of genes on a male's X and Y chromosomes). So if one gene mutates, there is still another one.

An organism's traits derive from the genes, and so new treats come from mutations in the genes, but evolution does not occur on the individual level, but on the "population" level. On that level, the prevailing factor in changes is the selection of traits for their "fit" to the environment, and the population's niche therein. At this level, traits that are detrimental are selected against and those which are beneficial are selected for.

Whether a trait is benficial or detrimental depends on the needs of the environment. If part of a population migrates to a different environment, beneficial traits might become detrimental, and vice versa. As generations pass, different needs result in different traits being encouraged or discouraged, and slowly, the two populations divurge a little more each generation.
 
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Zaius137

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No, I don't have it backwards. To repeat an analogy that was already made, saying that random mutations drive evolution would be the same as saying that random rains drive the direction of rivers. Regardless of where the rain falls, rivers will always flow downstream. Regardless of where mutations land, deleterious mutations will be eliminated and advantageous ones will be fixed.

Your answer implies some natural force like gravity driving random mutation. That would imply intent in a random process.

You see mutations do exact a cost to an organism which must be paid back in mortality. For example I just used this situation on another thread to show how ridiculous the numbers really are for the evolutionist.

A recent study has determined that deleterious mutations per generation for the evolution of a common ancestor of man and chimps is a U=4.2 for about 5 million years which leads to a necessary birth rate of 131 offspring per female for 5 million years just to maintain a level population.

You see I am not convinced that a system that relies on random chance can produce any new information in an organism. Such a gain in information would be a reduction in entropy. If such events ever did happen they would be extremely rare because of the low probability of the event. Direct observation has never shown real beneficial mutations to exist.
 
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CabVet

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Your answer implies some natural force like gravity driving random mutation. That would imply intent in a random process.


No, it does not. Gravity does not determine where the rain drops will fall, only which direction the river will flow. Likewise, natural selection does not determine where the mutations will fall, only that fitness will increase.

You see mutations do exact a cost to an organism which must be paid back in mortality. For example I just used this situation on another thread to show how ridiculous the numbers really are for the evolutionist.

A recent study has determined that deleterious mutations per generation for the evolution of a common ancestor of man and chimps is a U=4.2 for about 5 million years which leads to a necessary birth rate of 131 offspring per female for 5 million years just to maintain a level population.

Citation please.

You see I am not convinced that a system that relies on random chance can produce any new information in an organism. Such a gain in information would be a reduction in entropy. If such events ever did happen they would be extremely rare because of the low probability of the event. Direct observation has never shown real beneficial mutations to exist.

Can you comprehend how long 5 million years really is? Or 500 million?

So your claim is that selection cannot change things fast enough. Have you ever noticed how long it took for selection to produce numerous (and very different) dog breeds?
 
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Zaius137

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Sure…

Including coding and noncoding sites, we estimate that the genomic deleterious mutation rate U = 4.2. The mutational load predicted under a multiplicative model is therefore about 99% in hominids.

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/1/177.full
 
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CabVet

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Sorry but dog breeding is hybridization… You must refer to Mendel.

Still answering your other posts, but I hope you are talking about inbreeding here since dogs were not crossed with any other species to create breeds. And since when inbreeding does not occur in nature?
 
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CabVet

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Sure…

Including coding and noncoding sites, we estimate that the genomic deleterious mutation rate U = 4.2. The mutational load predicted under a multiplicative model is therefore about 99% in hominids.

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/1/177.full

Hmmm... I see that this point was explained to you, ad nauseam, here, less than a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7567545-67/

I suggest that you refer to that thread if you want to keep discussing this subject.
 
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Phred

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Your answer implies some natural force like gravity driving random mutation. That would imply intent in a random process.
Sigh...

320px-Biston.betularia.7200.jpg


That's a peppered moth. Over the last two hundred years they've been studied in detail. In a nutshell, here's what happened to them. "Originally, the vast majority of peppered moths had light colouration, which effectively camouflaged them against the light-coloured trees and lichens which they rested upon. However, because of widespread pollution during the Industrial Revolution in England, many of the lichens died out, and the trees that peppered moths rested on became blackened by soot, causing most of the light-coloured moths, or typica, to die off from predation. At the same time, the dark-coloured, or melanic, moths, carbonaria, flourished because of their ability to hide on the darkened trees." - Wikipedia

320px-Biston.betularia.f.carbonaria.7209.jpg


Yes, I know they're still moths. Yes I know creationists dispute this as they dispute everything. What they can't dispute are the facts. Light colored moths were the primary population and a mutation within the population of existed causing dark colored moths. Those dark moths were then selected because of a change in the environment which caused the light moths to be eaten. So the population of moths became primarily dark. Thus the dark moths passed on their genes and the light moths could not do so from the digestive tracts of birds.

The environment has since changed back as the pollution has been cleaned up. Lighter colored moths are reemerging again as the primary moth coloration.

This is simple and easy to understand. A circumstance caused one type of moth to be selected.

You see mutations do exact a cost to an organism which must be paid back in mortality. For example I just used this situation on another thread to show how ridiculous the numbers really are for the evolutionist.
Mutations come in all shapes and sizes. In the example above, the mutation just changes the color of the moth. The cost in mortality is paid by the lighter moths being eaten. Otherwise your "numbers" are just silly.

A recent study has determined that deleterious mutations per generation for the evolution of a common ancestor of man and chimps is a U=4.2 for about 5 million years which leads to a necessary birth rate of 131 offspring per female for 5 million years just to maintain a level population.
Except here we are.

You see I am not convinced that a system that relies on random chance can produce any new information in an organism. Such a gain in information would be a reduction in entropy. If such events ever did happen they would be extremely rare because of the low probability of the event. Direct observation has never shown real beneficial mutations to exist.
Oh if only there were some energy source outside of the closed ecosystem of the earth that could add energy to the system so that entropy wouldn't be a factor. Some large, round, bright, hot object...

As to beneficial mutations existing? Here's one in humans.

New Scientist said:
Genes matter when it comes to sport. At the 1964 Winter Olympics in Innsbruck, for example, Finnish sportsman Eero Mäntyranta won two gold medals in cross-country skiing. Though his training programme wasn't radically different from those of his teammates and rivals, Mäntyranta had a distinct advantage: he was born with a genetic mutation that loaded his blood with 25 to 50 per cent more red blood cells than the average man's. Since these cells shuttle oxygen from the lungs to the body tissues, Mäntyranta's muscles got more of the oxygen they needed for aerobic exercise, so he could ski faster for longer.

Mäntyranta got his extra red blood cells because of a mutation in the gene that produces the receptor for the hormone erythropoietin (epo). The kidneys normally churn out epo when oxygen levels in the body's tissues drop, as they do at high altitude, where the air is thin. Epo commands the body to manufacture new red cells, which raises the blood's capacity to carry oxygen. Once oxygen regains its normal level in the blood, the epo receptor should shut down epo production. But Mäntyranta's mutation turned off this crucial feedback, so his body kept making more red cells.

You have now been shown a beneficial mutation and should never again use the line, "Direct observation has never shown real beneficial mutations to exist." or you will be lying.
 
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Split Rock

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You see I am not convinced that a system that relies on random chance can produce any new information in an organism. Such a gain in information would be a reduction in entropy. If such events ever did happen they would be extremely rare because of the low probability of the event. Direct observation has never shown real beneficial mutations to exist.
1. Natural selection is not random, even if it relies on random mutations to produce the variation it acts on. Is 5 card draw poker based entirely on random chance? You get 5 cards at random, but then select which to keep and which to replace. This is how Natural Selection works.

2. There are plenty of examples of beneficial mutations. One is the evolution of resistance to glyphosate in weeds, which I have a thread in the archive on here: http://www.christianforums.com/t3309652/


Sorry but dog breeding is hybridization… You must refer to Mendel.[/FONT]
Wrong. Hybridization occurs between different species.
 
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