Raid on Polygamest Compound, How Do You View It?

[psalms 91]

My viewpoint is that they trampled the rights of a lot of people and removed forcibly over 400 children and caused untild suffering. They did not try to distinguish fact from fiction beforehand nor did they look for individual cases but rather removed a whole community. If child abuse was going on, which has yet to be shown, then it should have been handled in a manner consistant with law on an individual basis rather than uprooting an entire community. I am also concerned for what this means for the future of individual rights as this is just one state agency. If this is allowed to pass then the federal agencies can do even more than they already are now. I see an open p[olice state rather than a closed one as it is now.

 

[Criada]

It seems to me that this was a gross violation of people's rights.
It hasn't had a lot of press coverage over here, though, so I don't know all the details.
I'll come back when I've read up on it a little.

 

[ladyt28]

go to the news area - there's been quite a thread about this over there
http://christianforums.com/t7161964-polygamous-sect-children-ordered-to-stay-in-texas-custody.html

 

[Nadiine]

go to the news area - there's been quite a thread about this over there
http://christianforums.com/t7161964-polygamous-sect-children-ordered-to-stay-in-texas-custody.html

there's a thread on it in other areas too - I personally think this issue has 2 valid sides going on to be honest.

I see both sides and think it's a shame.

I have 1 thing to add tho, polygamy is ILLEGAL. If the current laws were properly enforced, this issue would have been kept to a containment level - this is the full blown result of the illegal activity which should of been dealt with much earlier on... same goes with it all thru Utah communities.

I also have this to say, is it a good environment for kids to be forced to grow up in cult communes where there's severe spiritual error going on? Brainwashed people or dysfunctional people?
I have to think those kids are just as bad off in those cult communities with what's forced on them as a "norm". I think of this in more than 1 way of "is it right to take the kids out"... what of their overall spiritual well being born into cults?

 

[psalms 91]

there's a thread on it in other areas too - I personally think this issue has 2 valid sides going on to be honest.

I see both sides and think it's a shame.

I have 1 thing to add tho, polygamy is ILLEGAL. If the current laws were properly enforced, this issue would have been kept to a containment level - this is the full blown result of the illegal activity which should of been dealt with much earlier on... same goes with it all thru Utah communities.

I also have this to say, is it a good environment for kids to be forced to grow up in cult communes where there's severe spiritual error going on? Brainwashed people or dysfunctional people?
I have to think those kids are just as bad off in those cult communities with what's forced on them as a "norm". I think of this in more than 1 way of "is it right to take the kids out"... what of their overall spiritual well being born into cults?

My only comment on this argum,ent is who do you want to regulate spiritual brainwashing? Right now it is the CWS caseworkers and courts, although that is not really what is being adjudcated. However, with this argument it would be. Personally I dont want the government involved in that although for persecution I am sure they will be. To me it is pure and simple if you believe in what this country was founded on, the individual rights that so many fought and died for that today seem as nothing. It is not just this but also talk of suspending the posse comitas act, wonder why they want top do that? lol. The evesdropping, microchipping, are there any individual rights left? Whatever happened to presumed innocent till proven guilty? Another question, in all of this has there been any reports of actual abuse rather than a ghost phone call that prompted over 400 children being scarred for life.

 

[Criada]

I can see a case for removing the older children, particularly the girls, but little ones need their family, cult or otherwise.
I don't know what the US childcare system is like, but certainly in Britain their spiritual wellbeing would not be considered there either!

 

[Nadiine]

My only comment on this argum,ent is who do you want to regulate spiritual brainwashing? Right now it is the CWS caseworkers and courts, although that is not really what is being adjudcated. However, with this argument it would be. Personally I dont want the government involved in that although for persecution I am sure they will be. To me it is pure and simple if you believe in what this country was founded on, the individual rights that so many fought and died for that today seem as nothing. It is not just this but also talk of suspending the posse comitas act, wonder why they want top do that? lol. The evesdropping, microchipping, are there any individual rights left? Whatever happened to presumed innocent till proven guilty? Another question, in all of this has there been any reports of actual abuse rather than a ghost phone call that prompted over 400 children being scarred for life.

Actually Bill, I'm not advocating regulating cults, JUST THE POLYGAMY within it.
It's illegal.

My comments are made as a Christian observing it all. Those kids may actually be better off SPIRITUALLY if they were removed from a cult compound.
What matters more? their eternity? or some emotional pain/turmoil in this life?
People suffer horribly every day; Christians included....

I'm not saying people need to regulate others religion, but spiritually speaking, it's to their benefit to NOT grow up in a cult.

 

[Nadiine]

I can see a case for removing the older children, particularly the girls, but little ones need their family, cult or otherwise.
I don't know what the US childcare system is like, but certainly in Britain their spiritual wellbeing would not be considered there either!

from the news I heard the other morning, another big issue is that the kids didn't even know who their real parents were. Birth records weren't kept & their last names changed as they swapped spouses & moved the kids with mom to another husband....

something like that. So kids have to be DNA tested to find out who their actual parents are.
Sorry but this is kinda SICK, don't you think? "gee, who's my real daddy"???

 

[psalms 91]

Actually Bill, I'm not advocating regulating cults, JUST THE POLYGAMY within it.
It's illegal.

My comments are made as a Christian observing it all. Those kids may actually be better off SPIRITUALLY if they were removed from a cult compound.
What matters more? their eternity? or some emotional pain/turmoil in this life?
People suffer horribly every day; Christians included....

I'm not saying people need to regulate others religion, but spiritually speaking, it's to their benefit to NOT grow up in a cult.

Ok lets look at polygymy, it is illegal here but it is biblical. I am not making a case for or against but it can be said that biblicvally it could be correct and in some societies it copuld be also. Secondly lets say I am the government and I agree with you that spiritual welfare is necessary and children should be removed, now that I have agreed and done that who is to say that I the government would not say that all cjhioldren must be raised, Baptist, or Catholic, or any other denom you care to insert. What about athiests? Druids, Muslims? See where this can lead and why it is a slippery slope? Above all we the people must stand for individual rights for all or none will have them

 

[Nadiine]

when I hear stories like this going regarding this situation, I DO have to ask where they might be better off for their futures.

We also know the documentary facts from Mormon women who got out of that lifestyle, most all of them tell horror stories of the young boys being banished from the house & put out on the streets, forced marriages, forced marriages of underage girls, molestation/rape/pedophilia is common.....

I think it's bad & dangerous for the kids in EITHER situation they're forced into. It's tragic to me either way.

 

[psalms 91]

from the news I heard the other morning, another big issue is that the kids didn't even know who their real parents were. Birth records weren't kept & their last names changed as they swapped spouses & moved the kids with mom to another husband....

something like that. So kids have to be DNA tested to find out who their actual parents are.
Sorry but this is kinda SICK, don't you think? "gee, who's my real daddy"???

Dont they have whole shows dedicated to that very issue? Seems to me that they dont remove the kids till they figure out who the father is. Remember that the least liked in society are often used to test what people will piut up with and set precedent for what will happen later to the masses.

 

[Nadiine]

Dont they have whole shows dedicated to that very issue? Seems to me that they dont remove the kids till they figure out who the father is. Remember that the least liked in society are often used to test what people will piut up with and set precedent for what will happen later to the masses.

I don't know if they have other instances of this....?

But they didn't have a phone call accusing them of rape in the other instances, do they?
They didn't just go in & raid without provocation for children's safety.....

 

[psalms 91]

I don't know if they have other instances of this....?

But they didn't have a phone call accusing them of rape in the other instances, do they?
They didn't just go in & raid without provocation for children's safety.....

And just where is this person? How much child abuse has been reported from the compound? Did they investigate the people individually to see if any might bbe guilty as their innocence is supposed to be presumed until proven otherwise in front of a jury? As I said wholesale and definitely trampled rights

 

[KarrieTex]

OK, I am going to chime in here as well as I did in other areas about this.

I am highly disappointed in my state. I don't believe they handled this correctly.

I also think there is a big issue of freedom of religion going on here.

I don't like seeing some of these children coming into the Houston area. Granted the environment they were in was horrid. However, when you are dealing with brainwashing from cults there needs to be an establisment of trust and the State is NOT doing that. How do they expect these children and mother's to come out of this when they rip their children away?

 

[Nadiine]

OK, I am going to chime in here as well as I did in other areas about this.

I am highly disappointed in my state. I don't believe they handled this correctly.

I also think there is a big issue of freedom of religion going on here.

I don't like seeing some of these children coming into the Houston area. Granted the environment they were in was horrid. However, when you are dealing with brainwashing from cults there needs to be an establisment of trust and the State is NOT doing that. How do they expect these children and mother's to come out of this when they rip their children away?

I don't know all the latest details in this. I have basically quit watching the news becuz I'm dissappointed in our media altogether. (in what they're failing to report, what they choose to report and the spin they report it in)

I have no doubt that this could of been handled better -- all I understood initially was that they recieved a phone call of a young girl being raped & they flew in to a cult compound to rescue kids.

I think I would want to see what comes from this & what information the kids give once AWAY from the parents for a little bit to see if there are actually incidents of pedophilia or other stuff like that.

Now that they DO have them, try to identify their parents thru DNA, get them registered properly and then release them.

It's a hard case - I think there are 2 valid sides (depending on the information the authorities were given to have acted as drastically as they had).
Hind sight is always 20/20.

 

[KarrieTex]

You are behind on this.

It was a 16 yr old WIFE that called it in. They now believe it was a woman, who has nothing to do with this compound, out of Col that called.

There was no reported abuse of children but one report of a 16 yr old wife who was being abused both physically and sexually by her husband.

Texas has known for a very long time of this place and about the practices of multiple marriages.

There is so much wrong with this whole thing that I have no clue how to even share it.

 

[Criada]

Ugh!
It's one of those situations where there just doesn't seem to be an answer that will work for those kids.
But.... God can do anything.. so am just praying that He will hold and comfort those concerned, and somehow bring some good out of a very bad situation.

 

[psalms 91]

I think what we all had better be concerned with is preserving civil rights for all, individual freedoms, right to privacy. Have you noticed it is goingh the way prayer in the schools went and each day we lose more and more.

 

[Nadiine]

Just an aside, on the radio news, they announced that 20 of the girls taken from there were pregnant and underage....
so either those 20 girls were with the younger guys (which I DOUBT), or adult men were already having sex with minors - which is statutory rape.

So..... again I'd offer that we should wait & find out some details.

Bill I'm concerned about our civil rights and those girls/kids have rights too & living in that commune, they can't 'escape' so easily to get help.

Again, I see 2 sides with this whole issue. This isn't going to be happening in normal situations - a cult commune should be paid closer attn. to becuz the kids ARE helpless there imho.

 

[KarrieTex]

Just an aside, on the radio news, they announced that 20 of the girls taken from there were pregnant and underage....
so either those 20 girls were with the younger guys (which I DOUBT), or adult men were already having sex with minors - which is statutory rape.

So..... again I'd offer that we should wait & find out some details.

Bill I'm concerned about our civil rights and those girls/kids have rights too & living in that commune, they can't 'escape' so easily to get help.

Again, I see 2 sides with this whole issue. This isn't going to be happening in normal situations - a cult commune should be paid closer attn. to becuz the kids ARE helpless there imho.

Except you need to be careful about what they mean by underage. I believe the majority of those girls are 17 and here in this state that's the legal age.