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Radioactive dating

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FrumiousBandersnatch

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What I found quite amusing that I explained to our resident D-K sufferer the Twin Paradox in terms of SR via Minkowski diagrams.
Radioactive dating

Obviously it went completely over his head but not to be outdone and in true D-K style he knows enough of the subject matter to claim Sean Carroll is an idiot.
I don't know what's going on with him - he happily follows SR until its implications conflict with what he thinks ought to be the case, then he jumps through hoops to avoid acknowledging them and arguing irrelevancies.

BTW here is Sean Carroll's (aka the idiot) CV.
I wonder how Justatruthseeker's CV compares?
I doubt we'll ever know.

Incidentally, his podcasts are very good (and they come with transcripts), and if you donate $1 (or more!) to his Patreon account, you get access to his AMA (Ask Me Anything) sessions, where he spends an hour or two answering questions from subscribers; well worth it.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Paper doesn’t make one wise, just shows they can answer the questions in the expected way.
You need to know more about him and his work before you can comment sensibly.

And the fact you couldn’t defend his absurdity about our motion through space, without comparing it to other objects, then refuse to do the same for time..... even if you can’t tell either is changing without comparing them to other objects.....

I noticed you studiously avoided that, I wonder why? Because you realize the hypocritical nature of your and his thought process????
No, because it's clear that I'd be wasting my time. The explanations are already posted. As Dr. Johnson said, "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding."
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I don't know what's going on with him - he happily follows SR until its implications conflict with what he thinks ought to be the case, then he jumps through hoops to avoid acknowledging them and arguing irrelevancies.


I doubt we'll ever know.

Incidentally, his podcasts are very good (and they come with transcripts), and if you donate $1 (or more!) to his Patreon account, you get access to his AMA (Ask Me Anything) sessions, where he spends an hour or two answering questions from subscribers; well worth it.
This shows all of your confusion as SR has to do with time being the same ONLY IN NON-INERTIAL FRAMES.

In case you haven’t figured it out we are discussing inertial frames, where time does not remain the same.....

You don’t get where I am coming from because you clearly don’t understand what the theories actually say....

Your compatriot even shows he understands time changes in the here and now for the twin, then wants to pretend it’s always been the same....

Your defenses are without any merit....
 
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Justatruthseeker

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You need to know more about him and his work before you can comment sensibly.

No, because it's clear that I'd be wasting my time. The explanations are already posted. As Dr. Johnson said, "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding."

Even in his explanation he clearly understands that speed is only in relation to other objects. Without comparing yourself to another object, you can’t tell you have changed velocity.

Then he wants to talk about time, but says time doesn’t change unless you compare it to another object, just like velocity, but doesn’t want to do so.

His responses are self conflicting and you can’t even admit it, because you have no answers but to avoid reality.
 
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dad

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BTW here is Sean Carroll's (aka the idiot) CV.
Speaking of amusing, a quote from your link.

"The most minimal approach to quantum theory is one where both spacetime and fields
are emergent from the kinematics and dynamics of a state vector in Hilbert Space
evolving under a given Hamiltonian, an approach we dubbed “Mad-Dog Everettianism"
[88]. The geometry of space can be defined by the entanglement of Hilbert-space factors
[76], and Einstein’s equation for gravity emerges from a requirement of entanglement
equilibrium [85].
I have argued that, while entropy increases in closed systems, natural measures of
“complexity” first increase and then decrease.."

This fishbowl philosopher doesn't realize the fishbowl is the closed system. The mad dog approach of trying to deduce great truths of the universe from fishbowl concepts is amusing.

Probably at that level of education and brain programming, a person would be unable almost to believe what the bible says abut how the stars will all vanish and go out one day, and that we will see it from earth. Sad.
 
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dad

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Even in his explanation he clearly understands that speed is only in relation to other objects. Without comparing yourself to another object, you can’t tell you have changed velocity.

Then he wants to talk about time, but says time doesn’t change unless you compare it to another object, just like velocity, but doesn’t want to do so.

His responses are self conflicting and you can’t even admit it, because you have no answers but to avoid reality.
You make the same mistake they do. You try to mold the universe into fishbowl theories and realities that you got from them, and add a twist of lemon.

Your position, then, is the GR and SR are correct, but that you think that the different frames of reference affect how radioactivity was on earth in the past?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Speaking of amusing, a quote from your link.

"The most minimal approach to quantum theory is one where both spacetime and fields
are emergent from the kinematics and dynamics of a state vector in Hilbert Space
evolving under a given Hamiltonian, an approach we dubbed “Mad-Dog Everettianism"
[88]. The geometry of space can be defined by the entanglement of Hilbert-space factors
[76], and Einstein’s equation for gravity emerges from a requirement of entanglement
equilibrium [85].
I have argued that, while entropy increases in closed systems, natural measures of
“complexity” first increase and then decrease.."

This fishbowl philosopher doesn't realize the fishbowl is the closed system. The mad dog approach of trying to deduce great truths of the universe from fishbowl concepts is amusing.

Probably at that level of education and brain programming, a person would be unable almost to believe what the bible says abut how the stars will all vanish and go out one day, and that we will see it from earth. Sad.
Except there will be a new heaven and earth, so we will see them again....
 
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Justatruthseeker

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You make the same mistake they do. You try to mold the universe into fishbowl theories and realities that you got from them, and add a twist of lemon.

Your position, then, is the GR and SR are correct, but that you think that the different frames of reference affect how radioactivity was on earth in the past?
They are correct.

They even tell you that the laws of physics are only the same in frames moving in relative motion to your own.

They actually support your own position that far away galaxies do not follow the same laws as ours does. Since those galaxies are not traveling in relative motion to our own, therefore the laws of physics would necessarily be different.

They support your fishbowl view, since only in small enough areas of observation can an object be considered as non-inertial.

GR and SR both clearly state this, but they simply don’t follow what the theories actually say.

SR says only in non-inertial frames is time constant. In other words in frames not accelerating. But we live in a universe that is accelerating... God stretched out the heavens.

As experiments show, time slows as velocity increases. So in the past when the velocity was less, radioactive decay rates would have been faster.

They don’t want to admit what their theory says because they don’t adjust for faster decay rates in the past, but use the same slower rate today to calculate the rate in the past. This gives them incorrect answers of age, since it hasn’t been constant, but decreasing.

It is like a decreasing flow of water through a pipe. If you saw the rate as it is now, and the amount of water in the pool, you would have to add more time to the length the water flowed because you didn’t account for an increased rate of flow in the past. If you use a constant flow rate instead of adjusting for an increasing flow rate in the past, your only option is to artificially increase the amount of time the water flowed to match the amount you see in the pool. All because you refuse to use a changing flow rate and use a constant rate.

The sad thing is they know time dilation is an experimental fact proven in the same Earth Centered Frame, then try to duck and dodge so they don’t have to admit to their error in time.

Their own theories don’t support their calculation of age, but they can’t ever admit this. Just like they’ll never actually admit to you that only in small enough areas can a frame be considered non-inertial so the same laws of physics can be applied.

They know the truth but will simply never admit it because doing so would destroy their belief system.
 
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SelfSim

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This shows all of your confusion as SR has to do with time being the same ONLY IN NON-INERTIAL FRAMES.

In case you haven’t figured it out we are discussing inertial frames, where time does not remain the same.....

You don’t get where I am coming from because you clearly don’t understand what the theories actually say....

Your compatriot even shows he understands time changes in the here and now for the twin, then wants to pretend it’s always been the same....

Your defenses are without any merit....
Your problem is that you just can't get that consistent time is a fundamental essential for making consistent sense in any situation (and accounts for why your explanations don't have any).

All of the experiments referenced are thought experiments and have been conceived in order to make sense of a hypothetical scenario. Now what does that tell you about the implied temporal frame of reference of the implied observer of these thought experiments?

I'll give you a hint: it takes a mind to conceive of a thought experiment and the notion of a consistent concept of time is the persistent, unchanging and necessary condition for any participant in a thought experiment to make sense of their particular situation.

Now I predict pirouettes and senseless contortions coming from you .. all over the place.
 
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sjastro

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Because it had no relation to reality and wasn’t worth discussing...
On the contrary your explanation of the paradox is so ridiculously wrong it shows my post went way over your head.

The twin accelerated away from the stationary frame (his clocks slow). They then remain at the slower rate until he reduces velocity to turn around. At this point they once again tick at their former rate. He then accelerated back towards his starting point and his clocks once again slow. As he reduces speed to land, his clocks begin to speed up to match the rate they ticked before he had left on his journey.
Totally wrong; the twin is not accelerating away or towards the stationary twin; acceleration only occurs during the turnaround period which is infinitesimally small.

If you actually understood the Minkowski spacetime diagrams, the world lines away from and towards the stationary twin are straight not curved indicating the moving twin is moving at a constant velocity, in this case 0.8c.


The descrepenxy in elapsed time exists because his clocks slowed and remained at that slower rate while at the increased speed.
Wrong again.
The discrepancy or asymmetry as I explained is due to the Doppler effect.

When the twin is moving away from the stationary twin the frequency of their signals is reduced (as wavelength increases), on the return journey the frequency of the signals is increased (as wavelength decreases).
This results in the stationary twin sending out 10 signals while the moving twin only six indicating the clock of the moving twin is running slower; all of which was explained in my post which you “supposedly” understood.

Now, since you understand that clocks slow with increases in velocity and speed up with decreases in velocity, what is your excuse for trying to pretend our clocks haven’t slowed from our increase in velocity????

All you all have is double talk to avoid what you know to be true.

You are not trying to calculate the decay rate in the present at this velocity, but the decay rate as it was at some point in our past.

And what makes your absurdity truly astounding is you even recognize that the twins clocks are changing in his present, (even admit it) then try to pretend they have always been the same.......
This is D-K effect at its finest; you are giving us a lecture blissfully unaware your target audience understands your comprehension of the subject matter is zero.

Your argument is refuted by a simple device used frequently by engineers; the humble accelerometer.
It works on Newton’s third law that every action has an equal and opposite reaction and can tell us whether a frame is accelerated or inertial.
Using your car analogy, if the car is stationary (yes it is stationary in the Earth’s frame of reference because it is not moving relative to the surface), or moving at a constant velocity, the accelerometer reads zero.
Plant your foot on the accelerator pedal and you are pushed back into your seat according to Newton’s third law.
This backward or proper acceleration is what an accelerometer measures.

In your stationary car the proper acceleration as a reaction force to the tangential acceleration is zero despite the Earth orbit or the solar system orbit around the galaxy.
The explanation is simple; the orbits are very nearly circular resulting in the tangential acceleration being negligibly small.

Here is some simple maths to illustrate the point for the Earth's orbit.
The Earth’s velocity at perihelion is 30,300 m/s, at aphelion 29,300 m/s.
Since the perihelion and aphelion are separated by six months = 1.5777 X 10⁷ seconds.
The tangential acceleration = 1000/1.5777 X 10⁷ = 0.000064 m/s².

So your idea that the earth is in an accelerated frame is totally bogus, the decay rates do not differ with time as velocity remains constant.
Even if the Earth was accelerating you still have the problem of defining an inertial frame in order for time dilation to occur.
 
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sjastro

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I don't know what's going on with him - he happily follows SR until its implications conflict with what he thinks ought to be the case, then he jumps through hoops to avoid acknowledging them and arguing irrelevancies.


I doubt we'll ever know.
This is par for the course.
He doesn't take in information for comprehension, he interprets it to fit his own world view which invariably leads to contradiction when subject to scrutiny.
His use of Wikipedia links is not based on the content but keywords is another example.

Incidentally, his podcasts are very good (and they come with transcripts), and if you donate $1 (or more!) to his Patreon account, you get access to his AMA (Ask Me Anything) sessions, where he spends an hour or two answering questions from subscribers; well worth it.
Thanks for that, I'll look into it.
 
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Michael

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This is par for the course.
He doesn't take in information for comprehension, he interprets it to fit his own world view which invariably leads to contradiction when subject to scrutiny.

Yet you don't seem to be able to see your own internal contradictions associated with the fact that dark energy defies the conservation laws of physics, or the fact that your near singularity thingy should have prevented "space expansion" from ever happening and the whole thing should have imploded instantly. You're hardly one to be lecturing him about internal inconsistencies IMO.
 
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Michael

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Dad is right about one thing. You folks do have a "fishbowl" concept of reality, and the CMB represents the sides of your fishbowl. Never mind the fact that the CMB is just another ordinary background created by the output of countless suns and ordinary scattering, just like the gamma ray background, or the x-ray background. Never mind the fact that Eddington predicted that background temperature very accurately based on ordinary scattering of starlight on the dust of the cosmos, *long* before the big bang theory become popular.
 
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dad

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I'll give you a hint: it takes a mind to conceive of a thought experiment and the notion of a consistent concept of time is the persistent, unchanging and necessary condition for any participant in a thought experiment to make sense of their particular situation..
The problem with what emanates from and in and around man's mind is that it is so limited. To do a thought experiment about how light moves or in what time in deep space is impossible. All you end up doing is trying to export your concepts and limited grasp of things.
 
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dad

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Dad is right about one thing. You folks do have a "fishbowl" concept of reality, and the CMB represents the sides of your fishbowl. Never mind the fact that the CMB is just another ordinary background created by the output of countless suns and ordinary scattering, just like the gamma ray background, or the x-ray background. Never mind the fact that Eddington predicted that background temperature very accurately based on ordinary scattering of starlight on the dust of the cosmos, *long* before the big bang theory become popular.
The creation remnant background radiation (otherwise called cosmic...by science of course) is outside the area where man or even his probes have been. Man's space crafts have been not even one light day away. Sp far, THAT is the limit of the fishbowl! The CMB light is seen here inside that area. Not outside. Even if we waited thousands of years the Voyager would still only be virtually on our veranda in terms of the universe.
 
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dad

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Totally wrong; the twin is not accelerating away or towards the stationary twin; acceleration only occurs during the turnaround period which is infinitesimally small..
Lurkers, try to remember here that there really are no twins! This is a fishbowl mind game thought experiment and exercise in fishbowl what iffing!
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Your problem is that you just can't get that consistent time is a fundamental essential for making consistent sense in any situation (and accounts for why your explanations don't have any).

All of the experiments referenced are thought experiments and have been conceived in order to make sense of a hypothetical scenario. Now what does that tell you about the implied temporal frame of reference of the implied observer of these thought experiments?

I'll give you a hint: it takes a mind to conceive of a thought experiment and the notion of a consistent concept of time is the persistent, unchanging and necessary condition for any participant in a thought experiment to make sense of their particular situation.

Now I predict pirouettes and senseless contortions coming from you .. all over the place.

I’m the only one that does make sense. Mine is the only one that accepts GPS satellites do not read the same duration ticks of time and the reason why they are adjusted to match earth clocks.

Time dilation isn’t a thought experiment. It is a proven fact from clock tests aboard airplanes calculated from the same Earth Centered Frame as were the clocks on earth. One of the tests supporting relativity and time dilation. And calculated all within the same frame....

What you fail to realize is the theory itself, hence the name “relativity”. Time is not consistent, it is only relative to your frame of reference. This is why you do not really understand why c remains c in every frame regardless of velocity. You think of this frame as an absolute frame and so the cause is beyond your comprehension.

This is why you fail to understand why a frame moving at a higher velocity would measure the same charge on an electron, despite that frame having a higher energy content than this frame.

In your mind you continue to think of this frame as an absolute frame, despite your professions in believing everything is relative. Every moment in time is of a different duration. You only call longer ticks of time seconds, as you once called shorter ticks of time seconds. You then think the second is an absolute measurement, when in fact it is a relative measurement, a variable, depending solely on the energy content of the frame under observation.

This is why you are confused and treat this frame as an absolute frame when it is not. You do not really understand why c remains c regardless of velocity because you think in absolutes, not as a relative measurement and result.
 
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sjastro

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Yet you don't seem to be able to see your own internal contradictions associated with the fact that dark energy defies the conservation laws of physics, or the fact that your near singularity thingy should have prevented "space expansion" from ever happening and the whole thing should have imploded instantly. You're hardly one to be lecturing him about internal inconsistencies IMO.
Evidently your one year suspension has affected your memory.
It was explained to you that space time is not a dynamic system that is conserved under a time translation hence dark energy is not conserved.
I suggest you search the appropriate threads.
 
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