Radioactive dating

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Brightmoon

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These days, yes, that holds true to a great extent. However there was no genetics we know in the different nature past. So anyone trying to trace it back is engaged in dreaming and endless and baseless what ifs. As for fossils, they represent a tiny tiny fraction of what life existed at the same time that they died and left remains. Probably in the former nature most life on earth and man also could not leave any such remains! At the same time a dino lived that became fossilized later after dying, man lived, crows lived, lions lived and etc etc etc. As for biochemical or chemical...anything....reactions depend on laws and forces...the nature that exists. You see only reactions in this present nature!




Radioactive dates are used to tell us when science thinks various fossils lived or were laid down etc. It dates stuff. Evo stuff.
. Fossils demonstrated that vertebrates ( for example) can change in wonderful but still limited ways . There are no evolved six legged vertebrates nor are there vertebrates with ventral spines . 4 limbs and dorsal spines are the basic vertebrate body plan BECAUSE there is a basic genetic/ developmental pattern that they all follow . Because it’s a basic pattern that comes from common ancestry. The age of the earth has little to do with that
 
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Brightmoon

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If we asked Darwin when his proverbial pond of first life form was what do you think he would have said?? They never even claimed the world was that old back then. The dates come from radioactive decay dating. Same even for ancient Egypt!
Darwin didn’t know how old the earth was . He started out believing in the 6000 year old nonsense but he’d learned enough geology to realize that the earth was much older than that . Darwin was the one to figure out how atolls form because he was a competent geologist as well as a zoologist
 
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Colter

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The authors of the Old Testament books didn't claim divine inspiration. The books were pseudo-biographical, spiritual instruction books written specifically for an Israelite audience. The Hebrew priest appropriated existing Mesopotamian lore in the construction of their own history, knowing nothing about the evolution of life or the age and origin of our earth and solar system.

The problem is that adherents of the false doctrine of the inspiration of ALL of the scripture are stuck trying to fit dating of the earth into the false doctrine of YEC.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I put this into these terms for simplicity: If (not saying it is so, but for the sake of perspective) a person (a consciousness, an atom, microbe, whatever) existed from the beginning, to modern day, say, for 15 billion years, it would "age" that 15 billion years. Yet, the beginning of those 15 billion, to use common terminology, was very fast years compared to the later, when compared to any one year within that expansion --for example when compared to the "size" or "rate" of 2018. No?
No. Everything that shares the same reference frame, regardless how it is moving, shares its proper time. For everything in this frame, time is (obviously) unvarying. For observers in other frames, the rate of time passing on Earth may be faster or slower relative to their own frame, according to their relative motion with respect to Earth.

To say that time runs faster or slower on Earth at some point in its history, you have to specify the frame relative to which Earth time is being measured.

... the average rate of 2018 is expanded considerably compared to year 6. Yet, from within that expansion, that person (consciousness, atom, whatever) sees no difference.
Time is what clocks measure. If a clock on Earth makes the same number of ticks for the duration of year 6 as it does for year 2018, the years last the same time. Observers moving relative to Earth may measure the duration of year 6 to be greater or less than the duration of year 2018.

If a massive rocket was used to accelerate the Earth through space, an external observer that did not accelerate would measure Earth's time to run more slowly than hers, and an observer on Earth would measure her clock to run slow relative to his; and if the Earth then turned around and returned to the unaccelerated observer, each would see the other's clock run fast on the return leg, but on Earth's return the unaccelerated observer would note that less time had elapsed overall on Earth (i.e. the twins paradox in reverse).

I see the same principle in the sci-fi stories about entering a black hole. They keep saying that as the space ship of whatever size approaches the event horizon of the black hole, the stresses would destroy the ship. I honestly do not see why. This is not a ship weathering a storm, but a ship becoming the black hole. I should think that the nose and the people inside the nose of the ship stretch (or compress, if you wish) with no awareness of distortion of size and shape, compared to the rear of the ship.
No; the stresses on a spaceship approaching a black hole are due to gravitational tidal forces, i.e. there is a significantly stronger gravitational force on the parts of a spaceship closest to the BH than the parts furthest away. This exerts a force tending to stretch the spaceship in the direction of the black hole. There is also a tidal compression force in addition to the stretching force. The combined effect results in what is whimsically called 'spaghettification'.

The effect of the event horizon on a spaceship crossing it depends on the size of the black hole. In General Relativity, spacetime at the event horizon is not special, and for very massive black holes such as those at the centre of galaxies, the gravitational gradient at the event horizon may be small enough that the spaceship can cross the event horizon without even noticing, and won't get spaghettified until closer to the singularity.
 
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GlabrousDory4

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Radioactivity is something that exists in the present world. We observe the rate at which various things decay. I have not seen any evidence yet that radioactivity even existed in the distant past on earth. Anyone have any? It seems like the idea in science is to assume we had a present nature along with all our laws and forces we have today, and then view isotopes and everything else accordingly.

Is there any proof or evidence independent of this belief at all?

As people would know if they are familiar with the issue, all methods of radioactive decay based dating basically rely on the same one belief and assumption. It seems like it it settled, so calling in for final arguments before the gavel goes down.




We have plenty of evidence of radioactivity in the distant past. It shows up in the form of damage to crystal structures (haloes in Zircons) as well as in J-type galena (the lead is largely radiogenic, we can tell by the isotopic nature of the lead in the galena).

The rate is assumed to be constant because right now there's little if any significant way to alter radioactive decay rates. I once saw a study that found neutrino flux could slightly modify a rare Si radioisotope's decay rate, but I haven't heard much since that study came out a few years back.

IF radioactive decay rates were astoundingly faster in the past, well there's a suite of problems that would show up elsewhere. The standard idea of a young earth but with really super fast radioactive decay rates that wound up with the signatures we see today would probably have cooked all life on earth if they really were decaying that fast.

I suppose if the goal is to simply raise questions in hopes of dismantling inconvenient science while still allowing yourself to enjoy the benefits of that science then this is a great place to start.

Put all the doubt and all the questions in "the distant past" and suddenly you can have EVERYTHING without limits? You don't like first order rate kinetics when they stand in the way of your young earth beliefs? No prob! Sure today you can still get radiation therapy if you get cancer and the doctors will be able to harness it because they understand first order rate kinetics, but in the "distant past" all bets were off.

Why not just invoke God's Magic? Seriously? Why bother trying to dismantle pretty standard science when the only reason you want to do so is so that you can explain God's actions in the Bible as literal? If that's the goal then just say "God Did It! Poof!" That seems the most parsimonious and you don't have to destroy science while you're at it.
 
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GlabrousDory4

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I am no authority on the subject, but it seems believed that the rate of decay is intrinsic to the material in question, not on other forces acting upon it.

That is why I too have my doubts. Many of the dates I have heard called forth are based on supposed time of formation. How, then can one know how old a rock is? Was it not sand (or whatever) first? How do we know we are not dating the sand?

I don't know. Maybe somebody else knows. I have never seen the question answered satisfactorily. Usually I just get screams of "ignorance" and "there is peer reviewed science" etc.

In intro geology classes when we teach people about radioactive dating we make sure to answer this question.

There are three types of rocks: igneous, sedimentary and metamorphic. Igneous rocks from from a MELT. Once formed the elements are all together and the clock starts.

IF, however, we are talking about a sedimentary rock which is made up of chunks of older rocks broken apart we CANNOT use that sort of radiometric dating. For the exact reason you hint at. If we dated the grains in a sandstone we'd only know when the grain itself was formed...NOT the sandstone formation itself. The grain of sand was probably formed initially as a quartz crystal in an igneous rock which was weathered out of the rock and transported to form a sandstone much, much later. Sometimes even then that sandstone was weathered and the grain became part of a different sandstone.

That's why it is necessary to know the type of rock.
 
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Mark Quayle

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The effect of the event horizon on a spaceship crossing it depends on the size of the black hole. In General Relativity, spacetime at the event horizon is not special, and for very massive black holes such as those at the centre of galaxies, the gravitational gradient at the event horizon may be small enough that the spaceship can cross the event horizon without even noticing, and won't get spaghettified until closer to the singularity.
Is spacetime special at the singularity? "In" the singularity? To me, the spaghettification makes no difference to the thing being stretched, and to the area around it, for that matter.

To put it another way, how do we know this whole universe is not inside a black hole? Or that any one part of it is or is not on a very small gradient leading to a black hole?
 
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Brightmoon

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Spaghettification is due to gravity “pulling” on one part of an object more than another part that’s a little further away . The gravity well at a black hole is so steep that this is possible . Other than that I’m not sure what you’re getting at Mark
 
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Mark Quayle

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In intro geology classes when we teach people about radioactive dating we make sure to answer this question.

There are three types of rocks: igneous, sedimentary and metamorphic. Igneous rocks from from a MELT. Once formed the elements are all together and the clock starts.

IF, however, we are talking about a sedimentary rock which is made up of chunks of older rocks broken apart we CANNOT use that sort of radiometric dating. For the exact reason you hint at. If we dated the grains in a sandstone we'd only know when the grain itself was formed...NOT the sandstone formation itself. The grain of sand was probably formed initially as a quartz crystal in an igneous rock which was weathered out of the rock and transported to form a sandstone much, much later. Sometimes even then that sandstone was weathered and the grain became part of a different sandstone.

That's why it is necessary to know the type of rock.
My puzzlement remains. Why does the radiometric clock begin ticking only when the igneous material coagulated and hardened? How do we know we are not measuring what it was as it melted, or before it melted --experience? Eg, when you check the hardened lava in a lava tube in Oregon, it is always much younger than the dirt outside the lava tube?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Spaghettification is due to gravity “pulling” on one part of an object more than another part that’s a little further away . The gravity well at a black hole is so steep that this is possible . Other than that I’m not sure what you’re getting at Mark
I don't mean to be argumentative, but if "reality" is stretched at the event horizon, as I have heard, then what is the difference between the effect of that sort of thing on that ship entering the event horizon and the (let's say, ship) existing 15 billion years ago and still floating about now?

You describe gravity increasing exponentially with position relative to the singularity --hello, event horizon. Does not relativity say that time and space also bend with gravity?

I'm not saying I understand. I'm just saying that I have not heard this explained away, except by those saying the black hole effect is different from the big bang expansion.
 
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Mark Quayle

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No. Everything that shares the same reference frame, regardless how it is moving, shares its proper time. For everything in this frame, time is (obviously) unvarying. For observers in other frames, the rate of time passing on Earth may be faster or slower relative to their own frame, according to their relative motion with respect to Earth.

To say that time runs faster or slower on Earth at some point in its history, you have to specify the frame relative to which Earth time is being measured.
Good. That is exactly what I was trying to say, believe it or not.
 
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Brightmoon

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I don't mean to be argumentative, but if "reality" is stretched at the event horizon, as I have heard, then what is the difference between the effect of that sort of thing on that ship entering the event horizon and the (let's say, ship) existing 15 billion years ago and still floating about now?

You describe gravity increasing exponentially with position relative to the singularity --hello, event horizon. Does not relativity say that time and space also bend with gravity?

I'm not saying I understand. I'm just saying that I have not heard this explained away, except by those saying the black hole effect is different from the big bang expansion.
. The effect we call gravity IS the bending of spacetime around ordinary matter. The more mass that ordinary matter has,the stronger the effect . So space and time don’t “bend with gravity”.
 
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dad

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. Fossils demonstrated that vertebrates ( for example) can change in wonderful but still limited ways . There are no evolved six legged vertebrates nor are there vertebrates with ventral spines . 4 limbs and dorsal spines are the basic vertebrate body plan BECAUSE there is a basic genetic/ developmental pattern that they all follow . Because it’s a basic pattern that comes from common ancestry. The age of the earth has little to do with that
There can be no basic plan derived from the fossil record if that record is a record of only a tiny percentage of the variety of life that lived at any given time. If most animals and fish and mankind could not leave any fossil remains then most life would NOT be represented in the fossils record. Therefore it is impossible to use that record to form any basis of what came from what.

The only question is what nature existed at the time fossils were laid down. If it was the present state or nature, then we would expect the fossil record to be representative of a cross section of life for the time the fossils was laid down. If nature was different, we would not. Science does NOT know what nature was like. That is your problem.
 
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dad

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In vertebrates even basic human anatomy can demonstrate a fish ancestor so your claim of we can’t demonstrate this with other fossil vertebrates as well is false
Not true, no fish ancestor is demonstrated anywhere but in your religious constructs. Whatever imaginary steps you take to get from fish to man can easily be dashed to pieces and blown to the wind.
 
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dad

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Darwin didn’t know how old the earth was . He started out believing in the 6000 year old nonsense but he’d learned enough geology to realize that the earth was much older than that . Darwin was the one to figure out how atolls form because he was a competent geologist as well as a zoologist
I don't think his bias allowed real competency. What he thought he learned was almost as silly as what he taught.
 
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dad

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We have plenty of evidence of radioactivity in the distant past. It shows up in the form of damage to crystal structures (haloes in Zircons) as well as in J-type galena (the lead is largely radiogenic, we can tell by the isotopic nature of the lead in the galena).
The 'damage' was caused long ago. You assume the damage had to be caused by reasons it would likely be caused in our nature. Just because the lead is now 'largely radiogenic' in this present nature does not mean it also was in a former different nature. Again you must first prove what the forces and laws and nature was like, BEFORE using it in your models.
The rate is assumed to be constant because right now there's little if any significant way to alter radioactive decay rates. I once saw a study that found neutrino flux could slightly modify a rare Si radioisotope's decay rate, but I haven't heard much since that study came out a few years back.
It does not matter in any way whatsoever if there is any way to alter aspects of THIS nature! If nature was different, then it would be the different nature that was altered! Not ours.
IF radioactive decay rates were astoundingly faster in the past, well there's a suite of problems that would show up elsewhere. The standard idea of a young earth but with really super fast radioactive decay rates that wound up with the signatures we see today would probably have cooked all life on earth if they really were decaying that fast.
I agree. But we are not tinkering around with our present nature as I just pointed out. The question remains (forget any changes IN radioactivity) - was anything radioactive at all that we can prove in the old world?
I suppose if the goal is to simply raise questions in hopes of dismantling inconvenient science while still allowing yourself to enjoy the benefits of that science then this is a great place to start.
There is not now and never will be a single benefit anywhere in the world or universe to origin fable mongering and religious tales. They are not science, never were part of science. To call them part of science is false. Wrong. Not true. Invalid. Actual science plays around in the fishbowl and the here and now.
Put all the doubt and all the questions in "the distant past" and suddenly you can have EVERYTHING without limits? You don't like first order rate kinetics when they stand in the way of your young earth beliefs? No prob! Sure today you can still get radiation therapy if you get cancer and the doctors will be able to harness it because they understand first order rate kinetics, but in the "distant past" all bets were off.
It was not doctors today that made men live 1000 years in the former nature. Unless there even was any radiation back then, they would not have been doing radiation therapy either. They do that now...if you notice. No application to the issue of what nature was like in the past.
Why not just invoke God's Magic? Seriously? Why bother trying to dismantle pretty standard science when the only reason you want to do so is so that you can explain God's actions in the Bible as literal? If that's the goal then just say "God Did It! Poof!" That seems the most parsimonious and you don't have to destroy science while you're at it.
Why does science claim God did not change thing or create when they have no clue or proof? God is not some bad word we can never invoke to get at what the past or future is like! In fact the reason science is lost and can never find the truth is because they leaned to their own 'wisdom' and beliefs.
 
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Brightmoon

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Pseudoscience beliefs can be fun but if you’re looking for an accurate description of Nature they really should be ignored by the scientific community until or unless they can be demonstrated to be an accurate description of nature . Young earth creationism has failed and will continue to fail because it’s not a good description of Nature
 
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