Racism and other forms of hatred. Silence is not an option.

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rusmeister

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He loses me when he speaks of "sexual orientation". Anyone speaking wisdom in the Church must understand that there is no such thing as a legitimate class of people, but that it is only a lie made up to pretend that passions constitute such a class. If you use the term in seriousness, it means you have bought into the lie, and have begun to see the fellow sinner's sin as a legitimate part of his identity. I have seen so many Orthodox people speak of a person "being gay", and talking about "sexual orientation" and step by step they begin to reject the Church's teaching on sexual passions. If we use the language of the world, we cannot help being deceived ourselves. I know he is talking about racism, but I am already demotivated to trust and search his words for truth.
 
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Phronema

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I enjoyed it, and it's a solid message. I agree with what he says, and we should absolutely love our brothers, and sisters as we would ourselves for a multitude of what I believe to be obvious reasons both in the mindset of the church, and out.

I'd also posit that marching in the street is understandable, and shows definitive action on the part of the individual, however many of these protests are turning violent, and I'd not be any part of that as it wholly goes against the very idea we'd be marching for.

Also, aside from doing what each of us can do to show love for our brothers and sisters I'm not so sure a protest will accomplish much to change the mind of someone who has racism ingrained in their mind, and is obviously spiritually sick. The problem may seem systemic, or societal to some, but it's an individual problem in that each racist individual lacks compassion, understanding, and love. That's not something we can instill in a spiritually sick person by protesting, and especially not with violence. Again a solid message, and I can appreciate it, and agree with it, but I think a person would be wise to understand exactly what it is that they're doing, and getting themselves into by physically protesting.
 
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rusmeister

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I don't think there is anything to protest: Floyd's killer is going to be tried and very likely punished. I am aware that some people make claims of "systemic racism", "white privilege", and other things very far from the Orthodox mindset. The chief thing to test for that (Does this fit our mindset?) is, "Whose sins am I focusing on here?" and it turns out to be the sins of others. The people talk about racism in the abstract minus concrete examples, and then apply that label and judgement to others on the basis of their skin color. The upshot is that the "SJW" lifts himself up and looks down on others over a sin that (as he imagines) besets them, and not him. He gets into a "holier-than-thou" frame of mind, something quite different from identifying a specific situation and saying that the action is wrong. It is racist, because it judges others on the basis of race, and very often it bears false witness by accusing people in the abstract, many of whom are really not guilty of the imagined, and often imaginary crime.

Abortion is a much greater evil than this, but we do nothing in real terms to stop that, either. If we have any real political power, that should be a greater priority of stopping a greater evil, but we don't. At most, we vote for "pro-life" candidates who later refuse to take real action to abolish abortion for political or personal reasons, and so the same-old same-old goes on, year after year. I don't think Orthodox Christians have any business whatsoever getting involved in even real and genuine peaceful protests - and often they ARE violent affairs manipulated by groups like Antifa and BLM, both of which should be designated terrorist organizations that support violence to achieve their ends and are enemies of what the Church teaches on human sexuality and the family, even setting the spiritual problems of "fighting racism" I mentioned above.

CS Lewis put well the problem of abstract love of distant people who are NOT our neighbor, those near us who we ARE commanded to concern ourselves with:
"Do what you will, there is going to be some benevolence, as well as some malice, in your patient’s soul. The great thing is to direct the malice to his immediate neighbours whom he meets every day and to thrust his benevolence out to the remote circumference, to people he does not know. The malice thus becomes wholly real and the benevolence largely imaginary. There is no good at all in inflaming his hatred of Germans if, at the same time, a promiscuous habit of charity is growing up between him and his mother, his employer, and the man he meets in the train. Think of your man as a series of concentric circles, his will being the innermost, his intellect coming next, and finally his fantasy. You can hardly hope, at once, to exclude from all circles everything that smells of the Enemy: but you must keep on shoving all the virtues outward ‘til they are finally located in the circle of fantasy, and all the desirable qualities inward into the Will. It is only in so far as they reach the Will and are there embodied in habits that the virtues are really fatal to us. (I don’t, of course, mean what the patient mistakes for his Will, the conscious fume and fret of resolutions and clenched teeth, but the real centre, what the Enemy calls the Heart.) All sorts of virtues painted in the fantasy or approved by the intellect or even, in some measure, loved and admired, will not keep a man from Our Father’s house: indeed that they may make him more amusing when he gets there."
"The Screwtape Letters"
 
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Jesus4Madrid

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I don't think there is anything to protest: Floyd's killer is going to be tried and very likely punished. I am aware that some people make claims of "systemic racism", "white privilege", and other things very far from the Orthodox mindset. The chief thing to test for that (Does this fit our mindset?) is, "Whose sins am I focusing on here?" and it turns out to be the sins of others. The people talk about racism in the abstract minus concrete examples, and then apply that label and judgement to others on the basis of their skin color. The upshot is that the "SJW" lifts himself up and looks down on others over a sin that (as he imagines) besets them, and not him. He gets into a "holier-than-thou" frame of mind, something quite different from identifying a specific situation and saying that the action is wrong. It is racist, because it judges others on the basis of race, and very often it bears false witness by accusing people in the abstract, many of whom are really not guilty of the imagined, and often imaginary crime.

Abortion is a much greater evil than this, but we do nothing in real terms to stop that, either. If we have any real political power, that should be a greater priority of stopping a greater evil, but we don't. At most, we vote for "pro-life" candidates who later refuse to take real action to abolish abortion for political or personal reasons, and so the same-old same-old goes on, year after year. I don't think Orthodox Christians have any business whatsoever getting involved in even real and genuine peaceful protests - and often they ARE violent affairs manipulated by groups like Antifa and BLM, both of which should be designated terrorist organizations that support violence to achieve their ends and are enemies of what the Church teaches on human sexuality and the family, even setting the spiritual problems of "fighting racism" I mentioned above.

CS Lewis put well the problem of abstract love of distant people who are NOT our neighbor, those near us who we ARE commanded to concern ourselves with:
"Do what you will, there is going to be some benevolence, as well as some malice, in your patient’s soul. The great thing is to direct the malice to his immediate neighbours whom he meets every day and to thrust his benevolence out to the remote circumference, to people he does not know. The malice thus becomes wholly real and the benevolence largely imaginary. There is no good at all in inflaming his hatred of Germans if, at the same time, a promiscuous habit of charity is growing up between him and his mother, his employer, and the man he meets in the train. Think of your man as a series of concentric circles, his will being the innermost, his intellect coming next, and finally his fantasy. You can hardly hope, at once, to exclude from all circles everything that smells of the Enemy: but you must keep on shoving all the virtues outward ‘til they are finally located in the circle of fantasy, and all the desirable qualities inward into the Will. It is only in so far as they reach the Will and are there embodied in habits that the virtues are really fatal to us. (I don’t, of course, mean what the patient mistakes for his Will, the conscious fume and fret of resolutions and clenched teeth, but the real centre, what the Enemy calls the Heart.) All sorts of virtues painted in the fantasy or approved by the intellect or even, in some measure, loved and admired, will not keep a man from Our Father’s house: indeed that they may make him more amusing when he gets there."
"The Screwtape Letters"
I agree with you on the abortion issue. No one wants to talk about it, but it results in millions of deaths around the world every year. My country pays for abortion from the public healthcare system, which I indirectly support through taxes. So there is a truly systematic evil in Europe, sponsored by the State, which is abortion and it is much clearer than some abstract idea of systematic racism.

Even in the US about half a billion of your tax dollars go to finance Planned Parenthood every year. That, my brothers and sisters, is truly evil.

And whilst I agree with you Rus that we would be wise to focus on our own sins, I do think we have an obligation as Orthodox Christians to speak out against evil, especially in unambiguous cases such as with abortion.
 
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rusmeister

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I agree with you on the abortion issue. No one wants to talk about it, but it results in millions of deaths around the world every year. My country pays for abortion from the public healthcare system, which I indirectly support through taxes. So there is a truly systematic evil in Europe, sponsored by the State, which is abortion and it is much clearer than some abstract idea of systematic racism.

Even in the US about half a billion of your tax dollars go to finance Planned Parenthood every year. That, my brothers and sisters, is truly evil.

And whilst I agree with you Rus that we would be wise to focus on our own sins, I do think we have an obligation as Orthodox Christians to speak out against evil, especially in unambiguous cases such as with abortion.
Yes, of course. I’m not saying we shouldn’t speak out against evil. I’m saying that complaining about Floyd’s murder as such is moot - prosecution is going forward; there is nothing to protest in that. The only legitimate basis to protest is a definite evil done by definite people that one can name that can be shown to have done proven injustice, and yet justice is not done. Here we have people “protesting” the vaguest things, like “systemic racism”, “white privilege”, and so on, which are the product of a mindset that is itself racist. They don’t want to demand specific justice for specific people; they want to virtue-signal and by default accuse the majority of us of “racism” for being who we are and what we can’t help. They then deny the majority the right to set the tone in their own country, which is an attempt to nullify democracy.
 
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gzt

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Also, aside from doing what each of us can do to show love for our brothers and sisters I'm not so sure a protest will accomplish much to change the mind of someone who has racism ingrained in their mind, and is obviously spiritually sick. The problem may seem systemic, or societal to some, but it's an individual problem in that each racist individual lacks compassion, understanding, and love. That's not something we can instill in a spiritually sick person by protesting, and especially not with violence. Again a solid message, and I can appreciate it, and agree with it, but I think a person would be wise to understand exactly what it is that they're doing, and getting themselves into by physically protesting.
There is systemic racism and there is one's own personal racism - while a protest is not aimed at the latter and not going to do much there, it is aimed at political change, redress of grievances, things of that nature. As Christians, we sometimes like to pretend that all that matters is our internal disposition, but then immediately see the problem the moment we perceive that the organization of a government system is somehow hostile to families or Christianity (whether it really is or not) and then avert our eyes when it's anything else.
 
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rusmeister

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There is systemic racism and there is one's own personal racism - while a protest is not aimed at the latter and not going to do much there, it is aimed at political change, redress of grievances, things of that nature. As Christians, we sometimes like to pretend that all that matters is our internal disposition, but then immediately see the problem the moment we perceive that the organization of a government system is somehow hostile to families or Christianity (whether it really is or not) and then avert our eyes when it's anything else.
No, there is no systemic racism. Racism is an individual thing. Anything else is blanket accusation of everybody (while the accuser implies that he himself is not guilty of it). It’s the Pharisee from the Publican and the Pharisee. And for most people, it’s a false accusation, making it false witness, to boot. Name the unjust event, and we can join you in grieving, praying, and even protesting if it continues to go unredressed. Refuse to name it, and be guilty of all that. We despise the injustices. But Floyd’s murderer faces prosecution and probably a lengthy prison sentence, if not the death penalty, to say nothing of loss of career, benefits, and everything else. Nothing left to protest there.


Do you support the BLM statement on their “What we believe” page? Is there anything there you don’t support?
What We Believe - Black Lives Matter

I’ll leave it to the collective here to decide whether intent to disrupt (ie, break up) the nuclear family structure is hostile to the family as we have always understood it (father-mother-child), or whether promoting perverted sexual passions is consistent with Orthodox Christian faith. Obviously it is hostile and inconsistent. You might as well say that looting doesn’t go against Christianity.
 
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AMM

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The chief thing to test for that (Does this fit our mindset?) is, "Whose sins am I focusing on here?" and it turns out to be the sins of others. The people talk about racism in the abstract minus concrete examples, and then apply that label and judgement to others on the basis of their skin color.
We must be seeing very different things here. Because that is what I am saying. I'm not seeing, "all white people are trash; let's focus on their sins"; I'm seeing, "here is a problem in our society, and this is something that each of us need to examine in ourselves."

Abortion is a much greater evil than this
Abortion is evil.

"For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law." So says Saint James, the Brother of our Lord.

Evil is evil. Sin is sin. Let's not minimize one sin by focusing on another.


CS Lewis put well the problem of abstract love of distant people who are NOT our neighbor, those near us who we ARE commanded to concern ourselves with
Agreed. In my personal case, my neighbors are these people who are near to me: my very close friends who are directly affected by these things. I am going to concern myself with loving them by crying out against these atrocities and injustices.

I’m saying that complaining about Floyd’s murder as such is moot - prosecution is going forward; there is nothing to protest in that.
Prosecution is only moving forward against 1 of the 4 officers.

They then deny the majority the right to set the tone in their own country, which is an attempt to nullify democracy.
Well, as you may know, since you are a teacher, we don't live in a democracy. Read the Federalist Papers and see how democracy is very explicitly rejected by the founders of our country.

Since when is a minority not allowed to express their opinion? Since when are they not allowed to form their own group and advocate for what they want? Since when is democracy our savior to begin with?
 
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AMM

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I’ll leave it to the collective here to decide whether intent to disrupt (ie, break up) the nuclear family structure is hostile to the family as we have always understood it (father-mother-child), or whether promoting perverted sexual passions is consistent with Orthodox Christian faith. Obviously it is hostile and inconsistent. You might as well say that looting doesn’t go against Christianity.
What is your point? No one here is saying that there are not "other forms of hatred" in our society - and that includes hostility towards the family. (Although I'd argue that the nuclear family is not actually inherently Orthodox to begin with.) No one is saying that we should promote any of the passions (including the passion of lust and fornication).

Stop changing the subject. African American men and women are being hurt emotionally, spiritually, and physically because of their skin color. Cry out against that. Don't say "yes that's sad, but..."
 
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Phronema

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There is systemic racism and there is one's own personal racism - while a protest is not aimed at the latter and not going to do much there, it is aimed at political change, redress of grievances, things of that nature. As Christians, we sometimes like to pretend that all that matters is our internal disposition, but then immediately see the problem the moment we perceive that the organization of a government system is somehow hostile to families or Christianity (whether it really is or not) and then avert our eyes when it's anything else.

I'd say then for systemic racism that's an issue to be lawfully changed by politicians. There's a right, and wrong way to go about doing it, and peaceful protests are the conventional way to make the politicians aware that an underlying issue exists.

I understand the rights to peacefully assemble, and exercise freedom of expression/speech are protected by the First Amendment, but when a peaceful protest turns violent I can't stand behind that act at all, and that's regardless of who's perpetrating the violence to include any extremists regardless of their political affiliation. Innocent people of every race, ethnicity, gender, creed, and religion then bears the brunt of that violence, and that's truly a shame. To me that sort of violence, and the violence carried out against George Floyd is abhorrent. All of it.
 
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gzt

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Okay, sure, but then you run into some questions: so does that mean with the first broken window or the first water bottle thrown by some random person in the crowd, the whole thing is discarded in your mind? Sure, there's some threshold to cross there. But police intentionally escalate that violence. I mean, yes, violence is not great. We also have to unfortunately consider the other side of that coin: the violence done by police to suppress the protest, which often and especially in these recent cases goes beyond what is morally or legally justifiable to attain whatever ends of public order they are promoting. What public good is served by rolling out flashbangs, rubber bullets, and teargas at the first hint of a pretext? In this case, it only underlines the point made by the protests.
 
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AMM

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Okay, sure, but then you run into some questions: so does that mean with the first broken window or the first water bottle thrown by some random person in the crowd, the whole thing is discarded in your mind? Sure, there's some threshold to cross there. But police intentionally escalate that violence. I mean, yes, violence is not great. We also have to unfortunately consider the other side of that coin: the violence done by police to suppress the protest, which often and especially in these recent cases goes beyond what is morally or legally justifiable to attain whatever ends of public order they are promoting. What public good is served by rolling out flashbangs, rubber bullets, and teargas at the first hint of a pretext? In this case, it only underlines the point made by the protests.
Exactly - you said it better than I could. I won't go so far as to say that the police are instigating all of the violence; I'm sure the protestors themselves are starting it some of the times. But it's not reasonable to assume that it is entirely their fault and the police are immune. The police response is excessive, and, as you said, demonstrates the issue at hand.
 
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Lukaris

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It always seems that violent opportunists who exploit a tragedy seize the moral high ground and leave an historic legacy as part of some perpetual, alleged “noble” cause. There is never any accountability for the fallout from these acts:

minority businesses destroyed - Google Search


italia marie kelly - Google Search

Meanwhile reasonable questions of incompetence towards certain political circles are not evident in most of the Pravda media complex. The denials by those who are suspected are easily believed:

klobuchar failed to prosecute - Google Search

Then, what of the long term affects of these “protests”? So called trustworthy politicians constantly reminded everyone to lock down, socially distance, etc. have little to say now:

US coronavirus: Cases surge in south and west as crowded protests spark worries - CNN

Later add here: some of, what I think, drives the delusions of the worldly “noble” bomb throwers:
V for Vendetta - Wikipedia

Add other junk like “The
Fight Club” & things like this probably sum up much of what should be considered a primitive, immature, totalitarian etc. mindset.
 
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Jesus4Madrid

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No, there is no systemic racism. Racism is an individual thing. Anything else is blanket accusation of everybody (while the accuser implies that he himself is not guilty of it). It’s the Pharisee from the Publican and the Pharisee. And for most people, it’s a false accusation, making it false witness, to boot. Name the unjust event, and we can join you in grieving, praying, and even protesting if it continues to go unredressed. Refuse to name it, and be guilty of all that. We despise the injustices. But Floyd’s murderer faces prosecution and probably a lengthy prison sentence, if not the death penalty, to say nothing of loss of career, benefits, and everything else. Nothing left to protest there.


Do you support the BLM statement on their “What we believe” page? Is there anything there you don’t support?
What We Believe - Black Lives Matter

I’ll leave it to the collective here to decide whether intent to disrupt (ie, break up) the nuclear family structure is hostile to the family as we have always understood it (father-mother-child), or whether promoting perverted sexual passions is consistent with Orthodox Christian faith. Obviously it is hostile and inconsistent. You might as well say that looting doesn’t go against Christianity.

Looting is stealing. It’s a sin. There is no justification for it.

The riots have revealed a lot of activity that is incompatible with the Kingdom of God, like stealing, racism, violence and hate. There are two ways, as the Didache reminds us. I don’t see the way of light in BLM, Antifa or any violent protest for that matter.
 
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Jesus4Madrid

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Exactly - you said it better than I could. I won't go so far as to say that the police are instigating all of the violence; I'm sure the protestors themselves are starting it some of the times. But it's not reasonable to assume that it is entirely their fault and the police are immune. The police response is excessive, and, as you said, demonstrates the issue at hand.

If the police in general are so bad, if what they did in Minneapolis merits widespread destruction, perhaps they should just disband and retreat from your big American cities. Let’s see how that works out. It would be like “The Purge” every day. But of course there wouldn’t be any excessive police violence, so perhaps all would be well.
 
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Jesus4Madrid

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Okay, sure, but then you run into some questions: so does that mean with the first broken window or the first water bottle thrown by some random person in the crowd, the whole thing is discarded in your mind? Sure, there's some threshold to cross there. But police intentionally escalate that violence. I mean, yes, violence is not great. We also have to unfortunately consider the other side of that coin: the violence done by police to suppress the protest, which often and especially in these recent cases goes beyond what is morally or legally justifiable to attain whatever ends of public order they are promoting. What public good is served by rolling out flashbangs, rubber bullets, and teargas at the first hint of a pretext? In this case, it only underlines the point made by the protests.
The Didache

1 There Are Two Ways
1:1 There are two ways, one of life and one of death! and there is a great difference between the two ways.
1:2 The way of life is this: First, you shall love God who made you. And second, love your neighbor as yourself, and do not do to another what you would not want done to you.
1:3 The meaning of these sayings is this: Bless those who curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for those who persecute you. For what reward is there for loving those who love you? Do not the heathens do the same? But you should love those who hate you, and then you shall have no enemies.
1:4 Abstain from fleshly and bodily lusts: If someone strikes your right cheek, turn the other also, and be perfect. If someone forces you to go one mile, go two. If someone takes your cloak, give also your coat. If someone takes from you what is yours, don't ask for it back. You really cannot.
 
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Phronema

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Okay, sure, but then you run into some questions: so does that mean with the first broken window or the first water bottle thrown by some random person in the crowd, the whole thing is discarded in your mind? Sure, there's some threshold to cross there. But police intentionally escalate that violence. I mean, yes, violence is not great. We also have to unfortunately consider the other side of that coin: the violence done by police to suppress the protest, which often and especially in these recent cases goes beyond what is morally or legally justifiable to attain whatever ends of public order they are promoting. What public good is served by rolling out flashbangs, rubber bullets, and teargas at the first hint of a pretext? In this case, it only underlines the point made by the protests.

You make good points, but I just can't fathom how stealing property brings justice for George Floyd.
 
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