Rabbis...

[TexasBluebonnet]

Going strictly by Law... everyone is going to hell.

It's always been about grace... seeking the mercy of the Law of God rather than the justice of the Law of Moses.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

1 Corinthians 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

Now, Blahoye Cobaka, I do not expect you toss out your Star of David for a scroll because I quoted these verses...

BUT...

If keeping the Law of Moses was means of going to heaven... why was faith necessary (Abram's sojourn Genesis 12, 15, 22)? And why were sacrifices necessary (Exodus / Leviticus)? And how could Isaiah declare?

Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Nah, he just needs a . He seems very tense.

 

[Blahoye Cobaka]

Going strictly by Law... everyone is going to hell.

Where is this found in the Law?

Now, Blahoye Cobaka, I do not expect you toss out your Star of David for a scroll because I quoted these verses...

Don't worry, I won't. I'm impressed that you took the time to spell out my username though.

If keeping the Law of Moses was means of going to heaven...

It's not. This is the basic reason for many Chrstians' misunderstanding about Judaism. The Law is not about heaven or hell.

 

[Blahoye Cobaka]

Nah, he just needs a . He seems very tense.

Moi? Nah, I'm actually bored as my little emoticon indicates. I stop by here when things are slow. It's also interesting to interact with Chrstians and hear their points of view. Some people really don't like my direct style, and I really don't like poseurs, so sometimes there's tension.

 

[TexasBluebonnet]

Moi? Nah, I'm actually bored as my little emoticon indicates. I stop by here when things are slow. It's also interesting to interact with Chrstians and hear their points of view. Some people really don't like my direct style, and I really don't like poseurs, so sometimes there's tension.

I understand, but have you heard the term "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" ? Not saying you're trying to convert anyone or anything, but there is something to that. People are more apt to listen to a POV when it's coming from a friendly disposition.

 

[Blahoye Cobaka]

I understand, but have you heard the term "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" ? Not saying you're trying to convert anyone or anything, but there is something to that.

No conversion attempts from me.

People are more apt to listen to a POV when it's coming from a friendly disposition.

Who fired the first shots in this thread? You must remember, anisavta doesn't like me overly much.

 

[anisavta]

No conversion attempts from me.



Who fired the first shots in this thread? You must remember, anisavta doesn't like me overly much.

I like you I really like you. After all you are a Jew from Israel. I like Israelis even though y'all can be really rude at times. I've had to fight my way in line to get a fruit shake.
You argue I argue. You don't like "Christians" and I don't like anti missionaries.
Ha some day we might share a sherut together and I'll pass you change with a nod of the head and a slight smile.

 

[TexasBluebonnet]

No conversion attempts from me.

I know. That would go against your religion.

 

[Blahoye Cobaka]

You don't like "Christians" and I don't like anti missionaries.

I have no beef with Chrstians, really. I do have problems with people who pretend to be Jews in order to try and legitimise Chrstianity to Jews, and missionaries who proselytise to Jews. Missionaries who reach out to Gentiles are just fine with me. As I've said many times, Chrstians can do some good.

For the record, if you call "anti missionary" one who defends Jews against missionary advances, you might as well label me one as well. It is a mitzvah.

Also, my hometown is known for rude people as well.

 

[Blahoye Cobaka]

I know. That would go against your religion.

Indeed

 

[TexasBluebonnet]

Indeed

 

[johnd]

It is true in one sense that Torah is only about life (this life). It was never meant to save anyone. Only to point out the need for salvation. King Solomon pointed out there is none who does not sin. I already quoted Isaiah who stated even our righteousnesses are as filthy rags to a holy God.

But, Tanakh does in fact refer to hell and the afterlife and judgment.

Job 19:23 “Oh, that my words were recorded, that they were written on a scroll,
24 that they were inscribed with an iron tool on lead, or engraved in rock forever!
25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!
28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him, since the root of the trouble lies in him,’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves; for wrath will bring punishment by the sword, and then you will know that there is judgment.”

Job 9:33 If only there were someone to arbitrate between us, to lay his hand upon us both,

Isaiah 66:23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD.
24 “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

Isaiah 65:17 “Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more.
20 “Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them, or plant and others eat. For as the days of a tree, so will be the days of my people; my chosen ones will long enjoy the works of their hands.
23 They will not toil in vain or bear children doomed to misfortune; for they will be a people blessed by the LORD, they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer; while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent’s food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,” says the LORD.

Like I said before, Christianity is merely the focus of what's in your own Bible, Blahoye Cobaka. It's your own scriptures you are refusing to believe, and buying into the commentaries of mere men.

 

[Blahoye Cobaka]

I'm going to be careful here. I've seen how the hammer comes down on Jews who protest too loudly.

It is true in one sense that Torah is only about life (this life). It was never meant to save anyone.

Ok. You said explicitly said:

Going strictly by Law... everyone is going to hell.

To defend this, you have already wandered outside its bounds.

Only to point out the need for salvation.

How?

King Solomon pointed out there is none who does not sin.

And?

I already quoted Isaiah who stated even our righteousnesses are as filthy rags to a holy God.

Read the quote in its context. He is not talking about the general human condition here, but a specific setting.

But, Tanakh does in fact refer to hell and the afterlife and judgment.

Job 19:23 “Oh, that my words were recorded, that they were written on a scroll,
24 that they were inscribed with an iron tool on lead, or engraved in rock forever!
25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!
28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him, since the root of the trouble lies in him,’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves; for wrath will bring punishment by the sword, and then you will know that there is judgment.”

I'm curious. What do you think this passage means?

Job 9:33 If only there were someone to arbitrate between us, to lay his hand upon us both,

If you think this refers to Jsus, I take it you do not believe in the trinity.

Isaiah 66:23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD.
24 “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

You realise that this is occurring in the physical realm, right? Corpses don't exist in the spiritual realm.

Isaiah 65:17 “Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more.
20 “Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them, or plant and others eat. For as the days of a tree, so will be the days of my people; my chosen ones will long enjoy the works of their hands.
23 They will not toil in vain or bear children doomed to misfortune; for they will be a people blessed by the LORD, they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer; while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent’s food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,” says the LORD.

How does this passage help your case? I don't understand.

Like I said before, Christianity is merely the focus of what's in your own Bible, Blahoye Cobaka. It's your own scriptures you are refusing to believe, and buying into the commentaries of mere men.

Negative, but thanks for the concern.

 

[TexasBluebonnet]

Shouldn't this be moved to the debate forum?

 

[Blahoye Cobaka]

Agreed. I am not sure how it wasn't moved there from page 1.

 

[TexasBluebonnet]

Agreed. I am not sure how it wasn't moved there from page 1.

Tell me about it.

 

[chava]

I would say just keep trying. I found a Conservative Shul near me that offers classes to all religions. It's technically their conversions class but you don't have to go for conversion. There were a few Christians and Messianics in the class. The Christians were generally there because they married a Jew. Just keep looking around there are generally Jewish community centers also.

 

[johnd]

The book of genesis alone contains a footprint of human history. Like the architectural plans of a house. You can't tell much about the way the house is going to shape up except in general terms... where the walls will go etc. So with Torah. You want to go strictly by Torah elevating it above the rest of inspired scripture. This limits the believer to the strict letter of that law... in which are prescribed numerous sacrifices which are not being carried out and have not been for nearly 2000 years.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, Blahoye Cobaka. You want to exclude the rest of the Tanakh's inspirational clarification of Torah that's fine. But you better come up with more than rabbinical commentary as to why you aren't bringing a blood sacrifice to the Levitical priests and / or are doing nothing about making it possible to do so.

 

[Blahoye Cobaka]

The book of genesis alone contains a footprint of human history. Like the architectural plans of a house. You can't tell much about the way the house is going to shape up except in general terms... where the walls will go etc. So with Torah. You want to go strictly by Torah elevating it above the rest of inspired scripture. This limits the believer to the strict letter of that law... in which are prescribed numerous sacrifices which are not being carried out and have not been for nearly 2000 years.

Your view of Judaism is pretty skewed.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, Blahoye Cobaka.

You're making some pretty bold statements when you have not yet remotely proven your case. If it's going to be like this, I'd request this be moved to MW where I can have a fair say.

You want to exclude the rest of the Tanakh's inspirational clarification of Torah that's fine.

Huh?

But you better come up with more than rabbinical commentary as to why you aren't bringing a blood sacrifice to the Levitical priests and / or are doing nothing about making it possible to do so.

How do you think Daniel got by?

 

[simchat_torah]

You don't like "Christians" and I don't like anti missionaries.

I'm curious... have you really met an antimissionary? Or do you consider all those who believe differently than you to be an antimissionary?

Your view of Judaism is pretty skewed.

And grass is green. I see you've met JohnD.

 

[simchat_torah]

Huh?

Don't worry Blahoye. Sentences like that are what's produced by people who know a few Hebrewisms, and toss them around like salad dressing in their conversations.