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visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
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Exodus 19:3-6
-I even used a Christian translation to avoid accusations from certain people that those evil Rabbis changed the words-
What do we have here?
God is speaking to Moses...
God tells Moses to say something to the people of Israel...
He tells Moses to remind them of God's great deeds...
Look at this:
Ok, so God has instructed Moses to tell the people of Israel that if they keep God's covenant, then they will be His possession...now, let's look at verse 6:
This verse qualifies what it means to be His possession...they are to be to God a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.
God has laid out the terms of His covenant...now, the response of Israel in verse 8:
Thus, the covenant between God and Israel is struck...no mention of worldwide adherence is mentioned.
It's a pretty straightforward set of verses. There's not a lot of room for hermeneutic gymnastics.
.... yeah.. and look what they are to teach the other nations as a holy nation...

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.

Numbers 15:16
One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

Numbers 15:29
Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
 
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simchat_torah

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What is their distinctiveness supposed to be... is it not to be the nation of priests teaching us all how to obey God's commandments.. and instead they create a fence and say the commandments are only for the Jews.. gentiles can go and do ... anywhere and anything else. Not the objective God had in mind.
While there is certainly only one Torah, there are different laws. Some apply to Jews and some to Gentiles. Some apply to men and some to women. Some laws apply to when living in the land, some laws apply to when living outside Israel.

etc etc etc.

Simply because Jews hold issue with Gentiles who copycat and try to do all of the mitzvot does not mean Jews don't want Gentiles to follow the code of righteousness. There certainly are still mitzvot that cover the Gentile. NO ONE follows every law. Men don't observe the laws of Niddah. Just the same, Gentiles should not pretend they are Jewish and try to take the burden of the Jewish laws unto themselves.

Each person has a special role to play. By pretending you're something else distorts G-d's plan.

Now if you want to talk about "fence" (aka: Halacha) I suggest a different thread. That is another subject entirely.
 
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ChavaK

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Yes, because it concerns me that the sabbath is to be broken by gentiles according to the Jews.

Which works out quite well for all concerned since Gentiles do not accept Oral Law
and there fore would have no need to observe shabbas as Jews do :)
 
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Eben Abram

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Which works out quite well for all concerned since Gentiles do not accept Oral Law
and there fore would have no need to observe shabbas as Jews do :)

Shalom Alecheim

I'll stick my neck out again for my people, lol, and get chomped on from bothe sides/

As far as Shabat, that is, was and for, We who are Jews.

Judeo-Christianity does teach that the sabbath is both a Spiritual attainment of a realization of the accomplishing work of the sacrifice of Christ, or I might say the Akeidah of Moshiach, a free-will offering of the Messiah of G-d.

As such, they seek to choose to say the day is as you treat each day, Holy Unto the Lord>

Some Sects of Christianity, not Judeo-christianity in its tradionally accepted nomenclature, teach that Shabat is for everyone that follows G-d and most noted of these is Seventh Day Adventist.

Some Christian Denominations advocate a quasi Shabbat replacement in using the Resurrection Day, a Sunday designation, and saying worship not sabbath rest, should be on Sunday.

Oral Traditions, have taken the Shabat, a rest, and made it inot something G-d never said and Rabbinic Tradition makes it like a Christian service.

The Sabbath was a day of rest, literally a day G-d rested from His labors and he Never said make it into a labor of not laboring in order to worship him.

In fact, he said, rest.

In some ways, that couch potatoe on Saturday watching Nascar is almost closer to what G-d intended than all the Good Intentions of those who say there are Observing shabat, by going to shul, rather than being a shul unot the Lord G-d alone and with personal family in the home and resting In Him to hear Him Speak.

It was all about being still not instilled with someone indoctrinating you.

But of course, on Saturday, we would rather hear Men speak than G-d.

SO,

Let the stones fly as everyone will disagree with me....,

LOL

Eben

If you really want a Shabbat, do nothing. Get Still and Be still alone with G-d and all alone ONE DAY A WEEK to Celebrate NO activity and NO Sound Bites, and NO computer, and NO Guitar and just try to

Meditate and Wait on the Lord, for one FULL DAY.

Let me if you can, In Alaska and in the desert and In Israel it was easy for me, now days, like the rest of you, who wants to hear G-d speak when it so much easier to go hear some man shoot off his mouth.

Meditation is lost on a generation that every imagination known to it is provided by technology.

Eben Abram
 
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Blahoye Cobaka

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.... yeah.. and look what they are to teach the other nations as a holy nation...

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.

Numbers 15:16
One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

Numbers 15:29
Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

All of these are intended for cases of Gentiles living in the land of Israel with the Jews. You're missing the point that Torah is a national law. Thus, if you are a Gentile (foreigner/stranger) living in the land and among the Jews, you are subject to the laws of the country.
 
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Thus said יהוה, "For three transgressions of Yehuḏah, and for four, I do not turn it back, because they have rejected the Torah of יהוה, and did not guard His laws. And their lies after which their fathers walked lead them astray. "But I shall send fire upon Yehuḏah, and it shall consume the palaces of Yerushalayim."
(Amo 2:4-5 The Scriptures 1998+)
Isn't it the same this day as in those days? Didn't Our Father who is the Father of all Creation whether Jew(really Israelite, a tribe thereof) or gentile(all the rest of humanity) that this Torah is for all, not just for one group of peoples? Didn't Our Father say to be a light to the nations? Doesn't He, Our Father want not one to perish, yet you, a Jew claims you are the only blest of the whole world of peoples, who say that it is ok to Lie to those not of the same blood? To say that we who aren't of the same blood must break Sabbath? Doesn't that make us to be more of the following of HaSat*n then of יהוה. Granted The Father spared Judah which in my studies includes Benjamin and probably some of the levites to keep His Torah, yet according to the above verses didn't. Isn't that why he put assunder the Temple? Why you yourselves can't even keep the Torah of Sacrifices any more? Is that why you have leaned upon your own understanding to cover over this truth by putting into effect more of your previous jewish traditions which are according to the Talmud?
Granted I like the truth more then a lie whether a Roman Catholic tells it or a Baptist who learned alot of Man's traditions from Man rather then from the truth bearers who were you, Judah, but you yourselves being mere men like me, have missed the mark in all the pride of being a chosen one of The Most High El.
See I got tired of all the hooplah in this world of lies from many differing beliefs. See they all want the truth but don't find it because others come along and teach their own traditions they themselves have learned from former blind guides. Granted men of the Roman empire seeked truth, but they too were lead astray by leaving those who held the Torah at a distance even to the point of replacing everything that was holy according to Torah, mind you, not according to the Oral one either. They took the Sabbath and replaced it with Sun worship which is called Sunday and killed many in the name of God. Well I have to say which God did they do this under? All other things resembling Judaism was replaced as well. Considering the facts that all those who were followers of what Y'shua taught were mainly Jews, after they all passed away and weren't ressurected as of yet(at least not in the knowledge of anyone) other then Y'shua who was proclaimed the First Fruit into The Kingdom of יהוה. The appointed master likened to Yosef who was appointed by Pharoah by the moving of The Father for he knows what is good for us all.
So who is the Rabbi we should follow? Ones who continue to hold on to Man's Traditions like all the churches and synagogues and shuls and Universities all teach. Aren't we all growing up in a Roman Empire with more technology at hand and getting more and more knowledgable to supposedly take things into our own hands with less reliance upon the one who Created us? Haven't those of the world, I am meaning those who oppose truth in The Father have been trying to kill those holding the Torah all these centuries? Yet the Father has spared you For his own purpose to continue holding His, Mind you, HIS Torah so we who are searching for Truth can compare those things taught on whether they are true or not? How special are the Jews who have carried this through storm and even unto death.
Granted also the Christians have feed the poor and brought to others lost in this world what they believe even to death what is truth to those in need, but they to have killed in the name of God, also forcing at times past those who opposed them to learn what they believe in.
Now their is an enemy growing even greater now adays that I'm sure you and yours have felt the wrath from and the world is as well now, so why not lay down your pride and self and look deeper within to find that He is there talking to you to teach others of the world His Truth and Not yours in your Oral Torah which Negates and adds to His Torah of Truth.
How many prophets have your kin killed because they didn't like what they heard because of Pride? I am talking of All Yisrael, not just Judah. For from what I read in Your Tanakh, everyone of them have been killed by their own peoples. I might be wrong on some of them but I can see and everyone in the world has seen with their own eyes what is written in Your Torah. I can say the same for those in Chrsitianity as well. How many people, lets say Indians in America have you Forced to learn your beliefs thinking they were savages that needed saving? Forcing them to learn english and wear clothing according to Your Tradtions of MAN?
First the Jew then the Gentile. See The Jew lost connection to The Father first, now those who claim to be Christian have also lost this connection, which I believe was lost at the gate just after those who were in the presense of the Spirit of The Father which I believe whole heartedly was in full in Y'shua.
See it wasn't just the Jews who were targets in this world, so are Christians as well or for that matter anyone who wants to do good for what they believe in.
So who is the True Teacher in this world now since you don't have Ruach HaKodesh presense in the Temple? Aren't we a temple? Can't we individually worship the One who created us? Can't He teach us Truth without the lies of Men's Traditions mixed in? Well it sure is hard since we all want to lean on another to learn from, which makes man's involvement hard to turn away since we all want to be part of a group.

Ruach HaKodesh open eyes that are blind and open ears that are sealed and loosen feet that are tied down,

Tag your insane brother who has been wandering in the wilderness searching for those who do Have the Truth instilled in them
 
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Also tell me this one who has Rabbi as a teacher, yes you to who call yours Father or you who puts someone above others saying they have Ruach HaKodesh, Have you tested that Spirit to see if it is trully the ONE who serves the Creator of all?
When the Temple was up, I see those who are called Jews had a way of knowing when The Spirit was amoungst them. Have you tasted of the Spirit these days? This goes for you others as well, have you tested the Spirit to know if you are trully in the presense of the Most High Spirit? How does one test for The Spirit? See I know you can ask for something whole heartedly and it can come to pass. And I am sure many of you have done the same and gotten an answer to a question you have of the Most High El. But for some reason at the same time I feel it is mostly for our own selfish desires we ask of HIM. Of course he wants us to be happy, but isn't it being happy with Him that he wants? Or rather His Happiness in Us when we are Right with HIM?
See I can have love and give to many people, but if it is for my own desires I do these things in love then how good is that love? To have a love for a brother whether he is of the same blood or of the same faith isnt' good enough, is it? Because that is a selfish love. Didn't Y'shua teach to love your enemies and leave room for Wrath from Our Father? Or is this teaching of The Father spoken through the lips of Y'shua for those who rather not listen to this Jew.
 
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Read my signature. Thus when all peoples come to finally hear the Truth, not according to any Traditions of Men, they will all be of the Nation of Elohim. See that Torah you speak of is not just yours, but for everyone who comes to know the one who Created them. Weren't you a Jew, which in reality a tribe of Israel, supposed to be a light to the world? And since your forefathers didn't keep this part of it and made up their own Torah, called the Oral Torah, they were supposedly replaced by gentiles? I don't believe that, but it sure seems to be since your forefathers taught contrary to Torah Of The Father and said your brother is blood relations or those who convert to your forefathers traditions.

All of these are intended for cases of Gentiles living in the land of Israel with the Jews. You're missing the point that Torah is a national law. Thus, if you are a Gentile (foreigner/stranger) living in the land and among the Jews, you are subject to the laws of the country.
 
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simchat_torah

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Yes, because it concerns me that the sabbath is to be broken by gentiles according to the Jews.
It would be greatly appreciated if you didn't put words in the mouths of the Jews. Please let us speak for ourselves, ok?

Thanks.
 
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And to all those who claim to be ordained to be a Father, priest, Pastor, etc., Who ordained you? Did Our Father in Heaven Ordain you or was it those who claim to be in charge of making someone a Teacher of Truth? A University set up by man to teach Men's Traditions?
Of course like the Israelites they wanted a King like all the other nations so they would fit in, well, doesn't that sound similar? Isn't a Priest, Father, etc. held higher then all those who are under them? Who put them under you? Did the Father in Heaven? Or was it again Man's Traditions of pride of a title the ones who appointed this?
What does your own bible say about this? I've seen quite a few of those who hold titles that can't even control their own children, and yet they have a title of power above a flock of believers who are like children who will do what ever you say because of your title. And then when you fall, isn't it a coincidence that many fall away from believing in G_D as you all call Him. And you who have those who call themselves Father and are forced to be single, is this according to Truth or isn't it Man's own understanding which is Tradition.
Granted there are many people in this world that want to do good, but if you yourself have learned only partial truths from blind guides how much more of a blind guide will you be as well?
We all know who are enemies of The Father, those who want to kill those who are opposed to thier belief system and they are growing in number every single day while we all sit around fumbling to hold our titles above others.
Aren't we all enemies of the Father if we are against each other instead of working together in testing the Spirits we hang out with on whether they are True Spirits of the Father or whether they are of HaSat*n?
Just think of me as the donkey under the prophet who was about to be killed and opened its mouth. I reckon I'm a Ass since I have lost my love for others who still hold to lies that are so obvious if you will just open your eyes to see with.
I'm not a prophet in my own eyes and I myself am not a saint or a teacher, I'm like that ass going about in the wilderness eating the foods of the fields. I rather eat my own crap then any more of most of the beliefs in this world and I am not talking about the obvious ones most in the Christian and Jewish circles know are false, I'm talking about those within these two circles of beliefs. I dont' see Islam as part of these two.
Granted I don't like to eat any foods that don't have a kosher symbol on it because I believe the Jews in that area and also the Sabbath they know of that also. But it gets me that all those in these circles have such pride in thier own beliefs that it dont' matter if it is man's traditions because they will believe anything put before them because someone with a title says so. Since there is such division in both circles it makes my head spin. How can one come to the truth in such a muck that has been twisted because of pride. All of this is on Pride. Just like HaSat*n's pride caused him to miss the mark, so shall pride cause many to fall away from even getting close to the Truth.
 
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ContraMundum

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I know of a couple of Rabbis who have had smicha etc. who converted to Christianity. They dropped the title "Rabbi" (though many people still call them by that out of respect for their learning) and did not then proceed to teach Christianity either. One is attending a proper Christian seminary as of now, and God willing he will become "Reverend" or "Father" someday. I know this guy personally. I once asked him why he didn't rush off to the local Messianic congregation and join their pastoral team, as many would expect. He said "I don't feel qualified" and also that he didn't want to get anything wrong when teaching Christianity. He is in my opinion very noble and has his head screwed on. He would rather get properly trained and be part of Christ's Church than receive accolades and attention from those who would revere his rabbinic background as qualifying him as an authority on the Gospel, when it clearly cannot be.

The same would go the other way, I would hazard. If a Christian pastor or priest joined the Rabbinic Jewish religion, he would not presume to be an expert on that religion.

I have no idea why some Jewish men think that they can be "Rabbis" to the Gentile Christians when it comes to theology before they have submitted themselves to examined and supervised training by the church body they choose. This lack of authority in the "Messianic movement" has caused a lot of trouble and increased confusion tenfold. Still, as I understand it, many Messianic groups are now adopting proper training for their pastors, which I commend (but recommend an orthodox instruction instead...but you all knew that already!) :)

Then you have the guys who are possibly not Jewish anyway but who set themselves up as teachers and experts, adopting the term "Rabbi" for themselves and gathering people around a novel religion of their own making. This is bad too. In fact, this is worse, even sinful.

Lastly, the term "Messianic". In Greek, an equivalent would be "Christian". I don't know what all the fuss on the terms is about.
 
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ContraMundum

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And to all those who claim to be ordained to be a Father, priest, Pastor, etc., Who ordained you? Did Our Father in Heaven Ordain you or was it those who claim to be in charge of making someone a Teacher of Truth? A University set up by man to teach Men's Traditions?

In orthodox, normative Christianity, the call to the presbytery is from God, tested by the Church (who also helps train the man called with the help of the Holy Spirit) and ratified by the church by ordination.

The Saviour Yeshua, founded the church, and thus gave it the mandate to exercise this authority of recognizing His call to the ministry among suitably qualified men. Just as the Father did so when He called Moishe and the elders of Israel to judge on such matters that concerned His people, so the NT church has such a call. The people of God continue in the ministry founded at the beginning.

Of course like the Israelites they wanted a King like all the other nations so they would fit in, well, doesn't that sound similar? Isn't a Priest, Father, etc. held higher then all those who are under them? Who put them under you? Did the Father in Heaven? Or was it again Man's Traditions of pride of a title the ones who appointed this?

Israel was a nation of priests, yet with a separate priesthood. Likewise, the Church. I could talk about this in a separate thread.
 
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Blahoye Cobaka

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Read my signature.

Your signature is poorly translated. If you're interested in why I think so, let me know. I don't want to waste my time on it if you're not.

Weren't you a Jew, which in reality a tribe of Israel, supposed to be a light to the world? And since your forefathers didn't keep this part of it and made up their own Torah, called the Oral Torah, they were supposedly replaced by gentiles? I don't believe that[...*i can't understand the rest*]

It sounds an awful lot like you do subscribe to this belief, which is fine; most Chrstians do. It's misguided, and based on a trained aversion to and misrepresentations of Judaism.

Apparently, even the writers of the gospels portray your messiah as seeing the validity of the Rabbinic tradition and Oral Torah (Matthew 23:2-5).
 
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ContraMundum

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Apparently, even the writers of the gospels portray your messiah as seeing the validity of the Rabbinic tradition and Oral Torah (Matthew 23:2-5).

Most Christian commentators understand that Jesus kept the oral Torah (of His time) to the extent that it did not violate the true meaning and purpose of the written Torah. Generally, the Christian position is that oral tradition is not necessarily from God- sometimes it compliments God's written revelation, but sometimes it doesn't, despite any claim to divine origin. I think it's this constant appeal to divine origin of the Oral Torah, which is neither verifiable or falsifiable, that most Christians object to, but only when it violates the clear teaching of the written tradition. This is why Christianity has a foundational premise of the primacy of the written, unmoveable texts above traditions which have a questionable origin. This appeal to the written in turn tests and proves all other claims.
 
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simchat_torah

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Lastly, the term "Messianic". In Greek, an equivalent would be "Christian". I don't know what all the fuss on the terms is about.
Some despise all things Greeek/Roman. They think that the Judaic terms are inherrently better because anything Greek/Roman MUST be influenced by paganism somehow... right?

*rolls eyes*
 
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