Summary of thread Argument by Muslim UK
In fairness to seekers of the truth I feel it necessary to summarise the discussion between myself and Muslim UK in order for each individual to review the core argument of both sides in order to make a more informed decision.
My thread statement is “Muhammad is False Prophet” My outline start with Surah 69:44-46
And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings, We would have seized him by the right hand; Then We would have cut (sever) from him the aorta.
I confirmed the interpretation of this surah with one of the greatest Muslim commentaries in the Islamic Tafsir Jalalayn:
Then We would have assuredly severed his life-artery the aorta of the heart a vein that connects with it and which if severed results in that person’s death.
From this it is clear that if Muhammad was a false prophet it would be certain then that Allah would ensure his death by cutting or severing his aorta. When we look at the Hadiths on Mohammad’s death what do we find – no less than four Hadith quoting Mohammad as saying his aorta has been cut or severed.
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith (Hadith 5.713)
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O 'Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my
aorta is being cut from that poison."
Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith (Hadith 2135)
Umm Mubashshir said to the Prophet (peace be upon him) during the sickness of which he died. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “And I do not think about my illness except that.
This is the time when it cut off my aorta.”
Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith (Hadith 2134)
So he (the Prophet) sent for the Jewess (and said to her): What motivated you to do the work you have done? She said: If you were a prophet, it would not harm you; but if you were a king, I should rid the people of you. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) then ordered regarding her and she was killed. He then said about the pain of which he died: I continued to feel pain from the morsel which I had eaten at Khaybar
. This is the time when it has cut off my aorta.
At-Tabari, Volume 8, p. 124—
The Messenger of God said during the illness from which he died—the mother of Bishr b. al-Bara had come in to visit him—“Umm Bishr, at this very moment
I feel my aorta being severed because of the food I ate with your son at Khaybar.”
Thus my conclusion or thread statement that Mohammad is a False Prophet and opened the discussion to hear the Islamic defence on this damming evidence. The following is the response I received from Muslim UK together with my rebuttals and comments.
Firstly we have full acceptance of Surah 69-44-46 as authentic and it forms part of the Islamic faith that was revealed to Mohammad in its entirety before Mohammad’s Death,
Muhammad pbuh died after completing his Mission. The Message of Islam was delivered 100% before the effects of poison from years previous finally took its toll. Every word in the Qur'an is authentic. It was revealed over a period of 23 years.
The translators of the Hadiths have got it wrong. I make note that Sahih Al-Bukhari and Abu-Dawood are considered on normal Islamic standards as the most authentic hadiths. However according to Muslim UK we do not understand Arabic, neither do the translators nor dose any of the online translation tools offer the correct Islamic perspective as Aorta actually means, suffocation.
He didn't die because GOD seized him by his right hand and severed his Aorta.
It's not even what the Arabic says :/
The Qur'an uses the word الوتين = Aorta (Al Watina)
The Hadith uses the word أَبْهَرِي = Breathlessness, shortness of breath, suffocation (Ab'hari)
I told you the word used is breathlessness, you used Google Translator and it said Aorta. This is wrong, plain and simple.
Ask Google translator to tell you what the following word means: بهر
It will give 1 meaning; Dazzle, however there are at least 9 meanings:
الموسوعة الشاملة - المعاني الكبير
Please do the homework and check for yourself, you will soon find out that no matter what translator one uses both the words quoted by Muslim UK mean Aorta. Yet as far as Muslim UK is concerned we are all wrong –
Please take note of the Islamic phrase “
Taqiyya”. Muslim scholars teach that Muslims that there are several forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, the best known being
taqiyya. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam. The following Surah’s support this :- 16:106, 9:3, 40:28 & 3:45.
Secondly note Muslim UK rebuttal – a single Arabic word has 9 meanings. Note not synonyms but meanings, which is 9 different implication.
Surah: 3:7 says the Quran is clear, and warns against those who wish to reinterpret the Quran for their own gain.
Note the contradiction as Muslim UK has just said above “
Every word in the Qur'an is authentic.” Yet suddenly each word in the Quran can have 9 different meanings?!!!!! – This logic is inconsistent and against the Quran teaching, but I leave it with you to make your own informed decision.
Qur'an 69:46
Surah Al-Haqqah [69:46] says:
ثُمَّ لَقَطَعۡنَا مِنۡهُ ٱلۡوَتِينَ (٤٦) = Aorta (Al Watina)
The Hadith found here
Hadith - Book of Military Expeditions led by the Prophet (pbuh) (Al-Maghaazi) - Sahih al-Bukhari - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)says:
وَقَالَ يُونُسُ عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، قَالَ عُرْوَةُ قَالَتْ عَائِشَةُ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ كَانَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ فِي مَرَضِهِ الَّذِي مَاتَ فِيهِ " يَا عَائِشَةُ مَا أَزَالُ أَجِدُ أَلَمَ الطَّعَامِ الَّذِي أَكَلْتُ بِخَيْبَرَ، فَهَذَا أَوَانُ وَجَدْتُ انْقِطَاعَ أَبْهَرِي مِنْ ذَلِكَ السَّمِّ " = Breathlessness, shortness of breath, suffocation (Ab'hari)
He felt breathlessness and did not die because his Aorta was ripped out. Lack of air vs lack instant death due to blood loss. Email the admins on the anti Islam website, and ask them to check the Arabic for you.
I love the above attempt to prove ones case, take the time and follow Muslim UK link and you will find the following :
Narrated `Aisha: The Prophet (ﷺ) in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O `Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."
Hadith - Book of Military Expeditions led by the Prophet (pbuh) (Al-Maghaazi) - Sahih al-Bukhari - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)
One must understand there are three ways Hadith are referenced,
· The author and reference number – in this case Sahih al-Bukhari 4428
· Reference to the book – in this case Book 64, Hadith 450
· USC-MSA web (English) reference – In this case Vol. 5, Book 59, Hadith 71
NOTE: All three of these reference point to the same Hadith.
Please note # 3 and refer to my opening statement and Hadith quoted in support of my premise that Mohammad is a false prophet.
Then take note that neither my reference nor Muslim UK reference refers to “Breathlessness, shortness of breath, suffocation (Ab'hari)” as Muslim UK believes is the case. For the discerning seeker of the truth I encourage you to follow the links of your Muslim friend and read or listen with deserment. I gaurentee you 99% of the time the reference will be false. Why do I say this well we westerners are lazy. We taught if there is a reference it has backing and thus truth. Do you have the time to check it out ----- well no we to bussy and in good faith we accept the writer has integrity. Yet we are seldom aware of “T
aqiyya” The Muslim requirement to advance the cause of Islam at all cost – this includes lying.
"And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings…….."
I know you don't understand Arabic, but assuming English is your mother tongue, please examine the word highlighted and underlined in RED
The next argument is the typical “IF” statement our Muslim friends use. Since the “IF” statement of the surah forms part of the original thread discussion and proof is offered supporting this I fail to understand how the “IF” suddenly becomes proof of the Islamic argument. One would think it would be wise to refute the proof not the statement. ---- So yes we agree the discussion is “IF” Mohammad were caught making false statements then his aorta would be cut.
Yes the Prophet pbuh was poisoned, and rather than die as his companion did, he lived on for years, much to the surprise of his hosts. Some accepted he was indeed a Prophet and reverted to Islam, others continued to oppose him. GOD tells us had Muhammad pbuh lied or spoken of his own accord, he would have had him seized and killed on the spot. This did not happen, the Prophet pbuh completed his mission over the following few years, then the effects of the poison took their toll.
Yes this argument from Muslim UK is possibly the only one has a shread of defence for the Islamic faith. he best of them all and gives credibility and hope for the Muslim cause. However the only factor is
Why don't you ask Google to explain how poison affects the body? Does one feel he is suffocating, or does it feel like his aorta is being severed.
Suddenly we have the appeal to seek Googles advice and that of science as an explanation to Mohammad’s death on the basis that science support suffocation as a common result of taking poison. So what does gooel say the effects of taking poison are:-
“If you or someone you know has swallowed or breathed in a poison, and you or they have serious signs or symptoms (nausea, vomiting, pain, trouble breathing, seizure, confusion, or abnormal skin color), you must either call an ambulance for transport to a hospital emergency department or call a poison control center”
There are eight symptoms for poison, one of which is trouble breathing! Reduce this to a percentage and you have 12.5% chance of trouble breathing. Is this the new method of evaluation of the Quran. I doubt it as a quick google search will prove the world to round not flat, sperm is made in the testicles and not in the back and the sun dose not set in a pool of mud.
My Aorta is cut is nothing more than a expression. He died from suffocation, which is what Science tells us happens when Poison affects the body.
Another argument Muslim UK offers is the “My Aorta is cut” is simply an expression. That’s great because that is exactly the argument, therefore Muslim UK accept that Mohammad is a false prophet! – Let me explain.
If “My Aorta is been cut” is only an expression used, this expression must be found both in the Quran and Hadith and such are interchangeable.
Muslim UK above says the Hadith should in fact read suffocation, thus “My Aorta been cut” is an expression of been suffocated.
Therefore we replace the expression “My Aorta been cut” with “suffocation” both in the Quran and the Hadith, we can then concluded Muhammad died of suffocation thus meeting the Quran standard of a false prophet.
CASE CLOSED. You see it is about consistency and the balancing of the scales of justice. If applying a standard for that standard to be effective it must be applied evenly and this is exactly what Muslim UK asks from us.
You need to be consistent. If you are going to use Hadiths that in your opinion come 300 years later, then why can't I do the same?
Muslim UK makes a second good point, in that we are certain Mohammad did live for a number of years after the incident of eating the poison.
You defy simple logic. According to you GOD promised to seize Muhammad and severe his Aorta IF he made things up.
What happens when you seize someone and server their Aorta >> They die within mins, if not on the spot. But no, GOD allowed the Prophet pbuh to survive several attempts on his life, protected him from the effects of poison for years, allowed him to Complete his blessed mission, offered him a long life on Earth to see Islam establish itself or return to his Lord.
Yes I agree if
someone cut my aorta I would have 2-3 minutes before one would bleed out and die. Yet we are not talking in human or scientific terms here. We are talking about Allah – the creator of all things seen and unseen, the one who wills whatever he wants and it is so. The all-powerful, all-knowing supreme authority of the Quran.
To limit Allah to our human or in this case Muslim UK human standards is simply elevating human knowledge and science above that of Allah abilities. In other words we know better than Allah and are better than Allah, which I understand is Shirk in Islamic terms – the unforgivable sin.
If we are truly are submitted to Islam in humility we should accept Allah’s ways as Allah knows best, and if he chooses allow Prophet Mohammad to complete his mission before passing his (Allah) righteous judgment so be it.
Yes I would too, except after eating the poison he felt nothing for years…………………… and bringing more and more people into the light
He came down with a fever which varied in intensity 3 days before his death. In that time he was able even able to perform prayers at the Mosque. If you view this as a long and painful death, then sure.
In desperation Muslim UK moves his argument to the extreme and suggests Mohammad had no effects from the poison until three days before his death. Then at best this was a mere fever which varied in intensity for only three days.
Firstly the earlier aggressive argument by Muslim UK that Mohammad died from suffocation is now out the window and is replaced by a fever. Well then we are to believe the Islamic believe in the transmission of the Hadith are then false. As all Hadiths in the matter clearly state the same thing, Mohammad said the effects from the poison severed his aorta. Dawood goes and quote Mohammad “I continued to feel pain from the morsel which I had eaten at Khaybar
. This is the time when it has cut off my aorta.”
No explanation is required here the reading is clear. I must state that I believe Mohammad was a master mind in what he accomplished, the recitation of the Quran by memory is excellent way of indoctrination and thus anyone learning this would have full understanding and knowledge of surah 69 especially Mohammad. In addition Mohammad had three years plus to consider his death after eating the poison – yet on his death bed he uses the same phrase that was revealed to him in surah 69 – my aorta is been cut –
Why would a man chose these words above all the alternative possibilities to describe his death?
In the death Muslim UK has the following to say in response to my post :-
In reading the Quran we (1) find Allah stating that if (3) Mohammad were to make false recitations he would be (2) punished by cutting his aorta. Four (4) strong authentic Hadith quote Mohammad as saying the effects of the poison have over a period of sometime (4) severed his aorta. Yes you understanding is this would result in a quick death, but Allah can will if he so desires a long and painful death fit for the punishment, which Allah confirms as to having his aorta severed.
Following your logic (1)a man warns if he's a liar (2)x will happen, towards the end of (3)his mission of strife and struggle (4)he says x is happening, and remember never to let go of my message because it's the truth. But wait he's a liar, so his initial premise can't be trusted, thus a contradiction in the logic!
Very logical argument indeed :/
Lets check this against my post and we see the Islamic manipulation and deception coming through:-
1:- Allah is suddenly reduced to a mere man.
2:- X = is accepted as per the Quran and Hadith as having ones aorta cut by the one true god Allah.
3:- The Surah refers to Mohammad and Mohammad only as the final prophet of Allah.
4:- Mohammad on his death bed confirms four times his Aorta is been severed.
Additions:- 5:- To make a case Muslim UK adds to premises 1) never to let go of my message because it's the truth. 2) But wait he's a liar,
Yes I agree this logic with the addition made by Muslim UK is a contradiction. Yet is this what I said?
Well no, and one thus can concluded that Surah 69:44-46 warns Mohammad not to be a false prophet, if he is he would die by having his aorta cut. The method by which Allah will achieve this judgment is not mentioned. However in the authentic Hadiths of Islam we read that Mohammad on his death bed said he had continually suffered from the poison received in Khaybar the effects which are cutting his aorta.
Conclusion is therefore Mohammad is a false prophet by Quranic standards.
