Quoting Calvin

Truthfrees said:

no

they are being punished but it can't pay for their own sins

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Then it would be wrong to say that Christ took the punishment for their sins.

Jennifer Rothnie said:

That's a great point. No one in hell can 'work off' their debt and be released - the judgment is eternal. It's a final sentence, the second death, irrevocable. Whether they committed a mere handful of sins or a trillion, they are under condemnation and can never pay it all off in Hell so as to be released as innocent freemen. There is no second chance for redemption in hell, whether the person is trying to redeem himself (by paying it all off himself) or wishing for someone to step in and redeem him by paying the penalty on his behalf.

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imo it appears that scripture indicates that the real sin is rejecting God, which expresses itself in rejecting Jesus, and causes people to hate God and anything good that comes from God.

hard to understand why anyone hates God other than Jesus said they refuse to come to Jesus because they have to come into the light - the light exposes their sin - and they love to sin

Hammster said:

Then it would be wrong to say that Christ took the punishment for their sins.

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He paid for their sins/took the punishment for their sins - but they hated God and rejected everything Jesus did - effectively taking their sins back upon themselves - as Jesus said they will die in their sins - because they refused the call and missed being one of the chosen

the free offer Jesus made was rejected rather than received

that's why John 3:16 says God sent His son so that who ever believes will not perish but have eternal life

they choose not to believe because they hate God and love darkness and want to keep sinning

Jesus death and resurrection and shed blood did everything that needed to be done - but they chose to not take it for themselves - so they leave it unclaimed - remain unregenerated/lost

Truthfrees said:

He paid for their sins/took the punishment for their sins - but they hated God and rejected everything Jesus did - effectively taking their sins back upon themselves - as Jesus said they will die in their sins - because they refused the call and missed being one of the chosen

the free offer Jesus made was rejected rather than received

that's why John 3:16 says God sent His son so that who ever believes will not perish but have eternal life

they choose not to believe because they hate God and love darkness and want to keep sinning

Jesus death and resurrection and shed blood did everything that needed to be done - but they chose to not take it for themselves - so they leave it unclaimed - remain unregenerated/lost

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Maybe I'm not asking it correctly.

Do you agree that hell is punishment for something? If so, what? If not, why is there hell?

Hammster said:

Maybe I'm not asking it correctly.

Do you agree that hell is punishment for something? If so, what? If not, why is there hell?

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hell is eternal separation from God - a choice God haters made before they rejected Jesus and His work on the cross

it for sure is their eternal home

is it a punishment for something?

i would need to find hell scriptures to say for sure what the punishment is for

i never thought about it enough to look for the scriptures detailing what hell is comprehensively about

for sure their sins are still on them because Jesus said that is what happens to people who reject Him

but they can never pay for their own sins - so that matter is a closed subject to them

Hebrews 9:27 says die once and then the judgement - so imo hell is judgement for probably rejecting God and Jesus payment for their sins - but this is only a guess - i'm open to better insight on this

Truthfrees said:

hell is eternal separation from God - a choice God haters made before they rejected Jesus and His work on the cross

it for sure is their eternal home

is it a punishment for something?

i would need to find hell scriptures to say for sure what the punishment is for

i never thought about it enough to look for the scriptures detailing what hell is comprehensively about

for sure their sins are still on them because Jesus said that is what happens to people who reject him

but they can never pay for their own sins - so that matter is a closed subject to them

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I don't mean pay for sins in such a way as they escape. I mean pay for sins in a way a murderer pays for a crime with a life sentence.

Hammster said:

I don't mean pay for sins in such a way as they escape. I mean pay for sins in a way a murderer pays for a crime with a life sentence.

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no - a person in hell can't pay for their own sins imo - unless you know of a scripture that says differently

i haven't studied the dynamics enough to give a better answer

only the blood and work of Jesus can pay for sins as a total solution

the blood of bulls and goats did something temporary - but the blood of Jesus did something final that went forward and backward in time to deal with all sin past present future

imo those in hell are there because they chose the devil and his company rather than God and His family

and the eternal home for God haters is hell - a reward/punishment that they chose with full knowledge - proving the depths of their free will wickedness

Truthfrees said:

no - a person in hell can't pay for their own sins imo - unless you know of a scripture that says differently

i haven't studied the dynamics enough to give a better answer

only the blood and work of Jesus can pay for sins as a final solution

the blood of bulls and goats did something temporary - but the blood of Jesus did something final that went forward and backward in time to deal with all sin past present future

imo those in hell are there because they chose the devil and his company rather than God and His family

and the final solution for God haters is hell - a reward/punishment that they chose with full knowledge - proving the depths of their free will wickedness

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They are punished for their sins though, correct?

Hammster said:

They are punished for their sins though, correct?

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i need a scripture to look at

what scripture are you using

Hammster said:

They are punished for their sins though, correct?

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without a scripture the best i can understand is there is no sin in heaven

so those who die in their sins because they refused the free gift of forgiveness of sins and reconciliation to God - because they hate God so much - have to live somewhere else - meaning hell

heaven is glorious beyond words - the dwelling place of the regenerated ones

hell is horrendous beyond words - the eternal home of the unregenerated

Hammster said:

I don't mean pay for sins in such a way as they escape. I mean pay for sins in a way a murderer pays for a crime with a life sentence.

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"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." II Thess 1:8-9

Scripture treats Gehenna as the punishment/sentence itself, which could be explained in English as 'paying for the crime.' (Mk 9:43-47, Matt 10:48, Matt 23:23, Lk 12:5, Matt 5:22, Jn 5:29.

Those who know God/obey the gospel are exempt from this penalty since they have life given by Christ and Christ's imputed righteousness. Jesus Himself never paid the penalty of eternal destruction or suffered the fires of Gehenna.

Rather, He experienced physical suffering for us all and physically died that we might live through Him.

Is 53 prophetically describes this:

"...He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.b
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied; (something no one condemned to hell will ever have)
by his knowledgef my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors..."

Jennifer Rothnie said:

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." II Thess 1:8-9

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awesome

perfect scripture

they are being punished because:

1. they do not know God

2. they do not obey the good news of God's Savior

they experience a penalty consisting of:

1. eternal destruction

2. separated from the glorious presence and might of our God

Truthfrees said:

without a scripture the best i can understand is there is no sin in heaven

so those who die in their sins because they refused the free gift of forgiveness of sins and reconciliation to God - because they hate God so much - have to live somewhere else - meaning hell

heaven is glorious beyond words - the dwelling place of the regenerated ones

hell is horrendous beyond words - the eternal home of the unregenerated

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It comes across as hell is just where people go because they don't love God age they have to go somewhere.

Jennifer Rothnie said:

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." II Thess 1:8-9

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Are they punished for sins that Christ atoned for?

Hammster said:

Are they punished for sins that Christ atoned for?

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Again, Christ is the atoning sacrifice for all sins (I John 2:2) but only makes atonement as the High priest applying the blood to the mercy seat (Heb 2:17) for those who receive the sacrifice in faith (rom 3:25) and become part of God's kingdom.

So while Christ died on behalf of the sins that unbelievers will be thrown into Gehenna for at the judgement, those sins will not be ones atoned for since those people never received the sacrifice by faith and are not in God's kingdom under Jesus the High priest.

Jennifer Rothnie said:

Again, Christ is the atoning sacrifice for all sins (I John 2:2) but only makes atonement as the High priest applying the blood to the mercy seat (Heb 2:17) for those who receive the sacrifice in faith (rom 3:25) and become part of God's kingdom.

So while Christ died on behalf of the sins that unbelievers will be thrown into Gehenna for at the judgement, those sins will not be ones atoned for since those people never received the sacrifice by faith and are not in God's kingdom under Jesus the High priest.

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So then it's accurate to say that they are punished for sins Christ didn't atone for.

Jennifer Rothnie said:

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." II Thess 1:8-9

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Truthfrees said:

awesome

perfect scripture

they are being punished because:

1. they do not know God

2. they do not obey the good news of God's Savior

they experience a penalty consisting of:

1. eternal destruction

2. separated from the glorious presence and might of our God

Click to expand...

Hammster said:

So then it's accurate to say that they are punished for sins Christ didn't atone for.

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because scripture doesn't say they are paying for sins Christ didn't atone for - we shouldn't say it that way either

scripture says they are in hell because they do not know God and they do not obey the gospel

scripture says Jesus died to pay for the sins of the whole world

if Jesus paid for their sins - they are paid - but because they reject Jesus and His payment - Jesus' payment does not get accounted to them - it's like an unclaimed payment - sitting there - waiting to be applied to their account

which is why scripture says they are in hell for not knowing God and rejecting the gospel

Truthfrees said:

because scripture doesn't say they are paying for sins Christ didn't atone for - we shouldn't say it that way either

scripture says they are in hell because they do not know God and they do not obey the gospel

that's what we should say - even if we don't know what that means

it's best to only say what scripture says - nothing more nothing less

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Not obeying the gospel is a sin. Is it one Christ died for?

Hammster said:

Not obeying the gospel is a sin. Is it one Christ died for?

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do you have a scripture for that

i need to see a scripture to decide if i agree or disagree with you

until then this is all i can say:

Truthfrees said:

scripture says Jesus died to pay for the sins of the whole world

if Jesus paid for their sins - they are paid - but because they reject Jesus and His payment - Jesus' payment does not get accounted to them - it's like an unclaimed payment - sitting there - waiting to be applied to their account

which is why scripture says they are in hell for not knowing God and rejecting the gospel

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their sins are paid for by Jesus but they reject that payment to their account - so His righteousness does not get credited to them by their own free will choice

Truthfrees said:

do you have a scripture for that

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I'm sorry, but I have to stop now. If you don't think disobeying God is a sin, and need scripture, then we are so far apart that I don't see how we can continue. We'll just keep talking past each other.