Quick question on evolution

[anyathesword]

Anya is a girl, pretty sure. And they're not that different from other nostrils, when you compare them with others.

At least you admit they are nostrils, though. The last time we talked about this, you wouldn't even do that much.

Well they are for breathing, sucking in and out air.

Yes I'm a girl..

 

[EternalDragon]

Anya is a girl, pretty sure. And they're not that different from other nostrils, when you compare them with others.

At least you admit they are nostrils, though. The last time we talked about this, you wouldn't even do that much.

She changed her image and I was in a hurry today so didn't notice. Sorry.

 

[anyathesword]

It is quite different.

There are air sacks. It is not attached to the trachea. There is a flap of skin at the top that can be opened and closed. They are positioned differently.

I mean how many genetic mutations would be needed just to change the blowhole? It really honestly doesn't seem probable or possible.

As I am aware genetic mutation is NOT beneficial most of the time.

So how the heck can a land animal change into a whale?

 

[anyathesword]

She changed her image and I was in a hurry today so didn't notice. Sorry.

It's ok, it's my cat..

 

[lasthero]

There are air sacks.

Here's a paper that discusses the air sacs and how they would develop from terrestrial mammals

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ar.20792/full

It is not attached to the trachea. There is a flap of skin at the top that can be opened and closed. They are positioned differently.

Obviously it's not the exact same thing, and no one's saying it is. But the overall structure is similar to that of a terrestrial mammal - there's nothing about it that it could not have derived from a basal ancestor.

 

[anyathesword]

Here's a paper that discusses the air sacs and how they would develop from terrestrial mammals.



Obviously it's not the exact same thing, and no one's saying it is. But the overall structure is similar to that of a terrestrial mammal - there's nothing about it that it could not have derived from a basal ancestor.

What about the location and the way they open and close?

But this is just one aspect.

We also have the eyes and the way the whales can sense direction in the water.

 

[lasthero]

I mean how many genetic mutations would be needed just to change the blowhole?

Don't know. Many, but there's no way to give an exact number.

It really honestly doesn't seem probable or possible.

Incredulity is not a valid argument.

So how the heck can a land animal change into a whale?

The evolution of whales

 

[Loudmouth]

I mean how many genetic mutations would be needed just to change the blowhole? It really honestly doesn't seem probable or possible.

I would love to see the math you used to determine the probability.

As I am aware genetic mutation is NOT beneficial most of the time.

False. The vast majority of mutations are neutral. Due to the amount of junk DNA in mammal genomes, only a small percentage of mutations occur in DNA that can affect fitness.

So how the heck can a land animal change into a whale?

Look at the fossils.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I mean how many genetic mutations would be needed just to change the blowhole? It really honestly doesn't seem probable or possible.

As I am aware genetic mutation is NOT beneficial most of the time.

So how the heck can a land animal change into a whale?

Some changes require many mutations, others don't, it varies. Just 1 change in 1 gene can make people have more than 5 functioning digits on their hands and/or feet.

 

[DogmaHunter]

How many changes and how much time would be needed for each change in a land animal to a whale?

I don't think such a question can be answered as it is too dependend upon circumstances. Try asking a molecular biologist if you really wish to have a detailed answer on this one. But an educated guess says that you are not really interested. You're just fishing for ammunition to make ignorant statements.

However, you might be surprised how little it takes sometimes to see big changes.
For example, in lab conditions it has been shown that a SINGLE mutation resulted in a mouse that had a brain twice as big as its peers.

It all depends on what parts are being modified and what its effect is.
DNA is very complex. It would be easy if a single gene was responsible for a single trait, but that's not the case. Most of the time, collections of genes result in specific things and these collections also overlap.
It's exactly the kind of chaotic mess we expect from a process like evolution btw.

I mean all changes that would be needed to make this animal be able to swim, breath in the water, grow in tremendous size, change physical features, etc.

Yes, it's probably a lot.
Then again, potentially milions of individuals every generation during millions of years. That makes up for a LOT of mutations.

Off course, if you insist on the unreasonable (not to say completely crazy ridiculous) notion that the earth is only 6000 years old...

And what kind of factors would cause this animal to turn into a whale?

It's called selective pressures in an ever-changing environment. Off course, such a concept is completely foreign to you if you never bothered to take an intellectually honest look at evolutionary biology.

And why is this not happening in any observed animals today? Animals living near water who changed to water animals?

Evolution happens every new generation. Some reproduce and spread their genes and some don't, while every newborn has their own share of genetic changes.

As for land animals moving to the sea... Hippo's seem like a good candidate in the process of exactly that. Does this mean that they will definatly end up like whales? No. Because we don't know what the future will bring for them. It will all depend on how their habitat changes through the ages and if they even survive these changes and if they do, if it means becoming even more dependend on water or less.

Off course, we don't live to observe millions of years. Perhaps think it through next time before asking questions that have, no doubt, been pointed out to you on MANY occasions that they are rooted in ignorance.

 

[anyathesword]

Don't know. Many, but there's no way to give an exact number.



Incredulity is not a valid argument.



The evolution of whales

Well skimming through your article, I see the changes are endless! But I did not find a good reason on HOW it changed and if it really was possible.

But you should know if you believe in this kind of stuff.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Well skimming through your article, I see the changes are endless! But I did not find a good reason on HOW it changed and if it really was possible.

But you should know if you believe in this kind of stuff.

You do realize that explaining the complete evolution of any creature would be a books worth of pages, right?

 

[anyathesword]

I would love to see the math you used to determine the probability.



False. The vast majority of mutations are neutral. Due to the amount of junk DNA in mammal genomes, only a small percentage of mutations occur in DNA that can affect fitness.



Look at the fossils.

Fossils are NOT a good indication of evolution! And there is a lot of false information on the whale evolution anyway...

 

[Loudmouth]

Well skimming through your article, I see the changes are endless! But I did not find a good reason on HOW it changed and if it really was possible.

Evolution occurs through mutations that are filtered through selection. We observe this happening in every single species.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

How many changes and how much time would be needed for each change in a land animal to a whale?

I mean all changes that would be needed to make this animal be able to swim, breath in the water, grow in tremendous size, change physical features, etc.

And what kind of factors would cause this animal to turn into a whale?


And why is this not happening in any observed animals today? Animals living near water who changed to water animals?

We do have a few modern examples of land-based turning into water-based-mammals living today, like seals and sea lions. Seals took to the before sea lions, and as such they have more aquatic adaptations. For example:

• Seals are slimmer and more aerodynamic that seal lions
• Seals, unlike sea lions, don't have external ears.
• Seals have smaller fore-fins than seal lions.
• Seals hind-fins are angled backwards, like a fish or a dolphin. They cannot walk and instead flop on their bellies. A Sea lion's hind-fins are angled forwards, and they can still walk on land (albeit somewhat awkwardly).
• Although both species have fur, seal's fur is much thinner and less dense than a sea lion's.

Other examples include the manatee and dugong - which, surprisingly, are more closely related to elephants than seals or sea lions. In fact in some ways their evolution is more similar to that of the whale: like whales, manatees and dugongs only have rudimentary hip-bones and have completely lost their hind legs. Also like whales (but unlike seals or sea lions), they are practically hairless.

Seals and sea lions vs. manatees and dugongs are also a nice example of covergent evolution.

 

[anyathesword]

You do realize that explaining the complete evolution of any creature would be a books worth of pages, right?

Of course, books of nonsense!

No, I think it's possible to say here how a land animal was able to walk, then swim, and change it's appearance completement!!!

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Well skimming through your article, I see the changes are endless! But I did not find a good reason on HOW it changed and if it really was possible.

To know that, you'd probably need to investigate genetics rather than fossils.

 

[Loudmouth]

Fossils are NOT a good indication of evolution!

Why?

And there is a lot of false information on the whale evolution anyway...

That false information is the lies that professional creationists publish on their websites, and have unsuspecting people like yourself repeat on forums and in talking to other people.

 

[Loudmouth]

Of course, books of nonsense!

What makes them nonsense?

No, I think it's possible to say here how a land animal was able to walk, then swim, and change it's appearance completement!!!

That is a logical fallacy known as an argument from incredulity.

Argument from incredulity - RationalWiki

Perhaps you want to try again, this time with evidence?

 

[DogmaHunter]

I mean how many genetic mutations would be needed just to change the blowhole? It really honestly doesn't seem probable or possible.

Argument from incredulity: "my evidence against evolution is that I don't understand it".

Does it seem "probable or possible" to you that time is relative? That it goes slower relative to the observer as peed goes up?

Or that particles can be in two places at the same time?

As I am aware genetic mutation is NOT beneficial most of the time.

True. MOST of the time, they are NEUTRAL.
This has multiple causes... It can be because the change was made in inactive DNA or because lots of genetic things are actually "synonymous". A gene changes but it still does the exact same thing as before.

Evolutionary mechanisms only needs some beneficial changes.
I have designed several genetic algoritms for use in optimisation systems. NEVER in a GA do you "control" the mutation. It's completely random. Most of the time, it will be harmfull to your solution. But they are discarded rather quickly in the selection process. The beneficial ones are selected and spread throughout the population a lot faster then you might think.

So how the heck can a land animal change into a whale?

Mutation + selection.

Really, it's not rocket science.