Questions regarding Adam

[Vance]

I originally wrote these down when I was in Jr. High School (private Christian School) and asked them to one of my teachers and my father, a minister. I found the answers they gave unconvincing:

If the entire earth was an “earthly paradise”, why did God need to create the Garden of Eden in particular?

Where was Adam before he was “placed” in the Garden (2:8, 2:15)?

If Adam, after the Fall was “banished from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken” (3:23, NIV), does this mean that he was banished to work the ground where he had been before being placed in the Garden?

How long was Adam, and then Eve, in the Garden before the Fall? (If physical death came to Man with the fall, then they were previously immortal and could have been there any length of time) Is there anything in the Scripture which provides information on this?

Why was there a Tree of Life in existence before the Fall if every living creature was already immortal? He was told he could eat of every tree other than the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and so he was allowed to eat of the Tree of Life. Is it possible that he was given freedom from physical death in that way, only to lose it again at the Fall?

Who was Cain afraid of if only Adam and Eve were left alive? Who is God referring to by “anyone” and “no one” in 4:15?

How was there a “land of Nod” if the only human inhabitants on the Earth were Adam, Eve and Cain?

Of course, the age-old “who did Cain marry”? [I found the "sisters" answer to be just a major cop-out]

What group of people lived in Cain’s city?

Why does 5:1 need to point out that what follows is *Adam’s* line in particular? What other lines is Adam’s being distinguished from?

 

[1denomination]

No disrespect intended Vance but do you belive anything the BIBLE says? Every post I've read of yours so far seems like it was written to disprove the bible, not uplift it. Mind you I've only read a few but just a thought I had.


Am I the only one who feels this way?

 

[United]

No disrespect intended Vance but do you belive anything the BIBLE says? Every post I've read of yours so far seems like it was written to disprove the bible, not uplift it. Mind you I've only read a few but just a thought I had.


Am I the only one who feels this way?

Hi 1denomination,

Welcome to the forum. I don't know what your background is, but I suspect it is not a liberal one. That's OK - I have more of a fundamental conservative background myself. Vance actually believes all of the bible (as far as I am aware), but does not read Genesis 1 & perhaps 2 literally. Most of his other belief's seem reasonably conservative to me. You will find many of the Theistic Evolutionists in the forum have similar beliefs on Genesis 1 & 2. They are generally as committed to christianity as you or I, but do have different outlooks on non critical areas of the bible (in particular Genesis).

Anyway, welcome to the forum & I hope we will see more of you.

 

[TwinCrier]

If the entire earth was an "earthly paradise", why did God need to create the Garden of Eden in particular?
I can't speak for God of course, but I presume Adam and Eve needed a place to live that would provide for all their needs.

Where was Adam before he was "placed" in the Garden (2:8, 2:15)? The bible doesn't say. Probably not to far from where the garden was.

If Adam, after the Fall was "banished from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken" (3:23, NIV), does this mean that he was banished to work the ground where he had been before being placed in the Garden?
It seems to be the case.

How long was Adam, and then Eve, in the Garden before the Fall? (If physical death came to Man with the fall, then they were previously immortal and could have been there any length of time) Is there anything in the Scripture which provides information on this? No. Since they had not yet had children, it seems to not have been too long at all.

Why was there a Tree of Life in existence before the Fall if every living creature was already immortal? He was told he could eat of every tree other than the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and so he was allowed to eat of the Tree of Life. Is it possible that he was given freedom from physical death in that way, only to lose it again at the Fall?
The existence of the tree of life has nothing to do with immortality. Though if you're implying that being cut off from the tree of Life lead to physical death, that is a possible interpretation.

Who was Cain afraid of if only Adam and Eve were left alive? Who is God referring to by "anyone" and "no one" in 4:15?
Cain and Abel were grown men at the time Cain murdered Abel and Adam and Eve most certainly had other children. It appears from Gen. 4 that Eve seemed to conceive everytime Adam knew her, which would be reasonable since they were to populate the world. Since Cain had children, Adam and Eve no doubt had daughters as well.

How was there a "land of Nod" if the only human inhabitants on the Earth were Adam, Eve and Cain? Who said that was so? Adam and Eve had more then 3 children. Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. 930 years is a long time to beget children.

Of course, the age-old "who did Cain marry"? [I found the "sisters" answer to be just a major cop-out]
OK, but who did he marry then? His cousin the Gorilla?

What group of people lived in Cain's city? His wife, and children.

Why does 5:1 need to point out that what follows is *Adam's* line in particular? What other lines is Adam's being distinguished from? It's only the line of offspring that leads to the birth of Christ. There is no need to list the descendents of the other hundred or so children.

I would like to say that while I'm sure none of my answers will satisfy you, I am thrilled that you are reading and questioning Genesis. I pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you in your current study of God's word.

 

[horuhe00]

Did Adam have a belly button?

 

[TwinCrier]

Scripture isn't clear on the issue.

 

[Vance]

"I would like to say that while I'm sure none of my answers will satisfy you, I am thrilled that you are reading and questioning Genesis. I pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you in your current study of God's word."

I think you missed the first part. These are questions I had when I was in Jr. High. I have since read and studied every verse and Scripture of the Bible hundreds of times over. One of my greatest joys is spending time in the Word of God. It is not as if I am just getting around to wondering about these issues.

As to your answers, some are fine with me. The implication of the first few questions is that the world outside the Garden was actually NOT an earthly paradise. He was specifically brought INTO the Garden from outside, and then sent back OUT into that same world, which seems to be pretty hard work. There is no indication that the world outside the Garden had the same qualities as the Garden itself. Actually, the very fact that a Garden was created provides a very strong indication that it did not have those qualities. So, what was it like? Maybe just like the investigators of God's natural world describe it? Maybe an earth billions of years old and full of the species that have developed via evolutionary processes?

As for Cain, I will be posting an analysis of that soon.

 

[Vance]

1denomination:

Actually I believe every bit of Scripture is true. Even if it is not meant to be read literally.

 

[Vance]

Any other thoughts?

 

[Gold Dragon]

Why was there a Tree of Life in existence before the Fall if every living creature was already immortal? He was told he could eat of every tree other than the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and so he was allowed to eat of the Tree of Life. Is it possible that he was given freedom from physical death in that way, only to lose it again at the Fall?
The existence of the tree of life has nothing to do with immortality. Though if you're implying that being cut off from the tree of Life lead to physical death, that is a possible interpretation.

So are you saying that it was possible for physical death to exist before the fall if one didn't eat from the tree of life?

KJV - Gen 3:22

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 

[Ben_Hur]

To further support the concept that Eden is a place separate from the Earth, we are told that it is being guarded to keep people out. Presumably, it still exists....somewhere.

Gen 3:24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

[Beowulf]

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


Adam was real. Note "is", not "was written" or "has been written" or "had been written" but "is written", present tense. Christ himself used this phase to rebuke Satan. Paul uses the same in like fashion to emphasis fact.

Likewise, Abraham was a real person.

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

"It is written": That which is written shall stand forever. Nothing man can do or believe will change what is written.

Some prefer to view Genesis as myth. I prefer to view evolution as myth. I prefer to believe that when I see the words "And God said..." that what He said is unconditional without restriction of time or the conclusions of the science of mere men.

 

[Vance]

And that is just it: what you prefer. You are prefering your own interpretation, and then claiming that this is the only interpretation which takes God at His Word.

When something says "it is written", this still does not explain exactly whether it was written literally or figuratively. People of the ancient world would definitely have referred to a figurative usage of Adam just the way Jesus and Paul did, so that text proves nothing other than they had read their Scripture.

But I don't see any analysis of the Scripture I discussed in the OP.

 

[Vance]

Still awaiting a substantive response from a YEC regarding the points raised in the OP.

 

[GodSaves]

I have yet to see any TE use the Bible to show evolution. I have only seen TE's use the Bible to disprove what is in the Bible. This is where there is not difference between TE's and atheists. You both use the same arguements against those who believe the Bible completely and those who are unwillingly to change it to fit anything of this world.

You are correct, you don't change the words to save yourself from receiving the plagues God promised those who do add or subtract any Words from the Bible. To get around this you try and change the meanings of the Words, or in how to read the Words. It is a very clever trick, much like the phrase in the Bible : "Did God really say that..."

TE's have come out and said creationism is a lie of Satan. I will say loudly evolution is the greatest lie of today from Satan himself. It causes God's people to question what God really said, just like in the Garden of Eden. It cause first to question creation, then Adam and Eve, then Abraham, then the Flood, then Moses, then the Old Testament, then Jesus Christ being conceived by the Holy Spirit, and it will continue to lead one until they have concluded the whole Bible is a myth only to teach one to live morally. It is evident that because of evolution many who are Christian question many things the Bible says. Those who do so laugh at those who do not question the Bible. They call those who don't unintelligent and fools. Well it is the fool who questions God and His Authority. The greatest of these fools is Satan himself.

 

[Vance]

And still no response to the questions raised in the OP.

 

[TwinCrier]

And still no response to the questions raised in the OP.

If the entire earth was an “earthly paradise”, why did God need to create the Garden of Eden in particular?

Earthly paradise simply because there is no sin or death. It seems clear that the Garden was to provide food and water, as God gives permission for them to eat of any tree, except that one.

Where was Adam before he was “placed” in the Garden (2:8, 2:15)?

Outside the garden. Sorry if that seems simplistic, but most of the best answers are. Let's not try to make this more difficult.

If Adam, after the Fall was “banished from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken” (3:23, NIV), does this mean that he was banished to work the ground where he had been before being placed in the Garden?

That seems a logical conclusion.

How long was Adam, and then Eve, in the Garden before the Fall? (If physical death came to Man with the fall, then they were previously immortal and could have been there any length of time) Is there anything in the Scripture which provides information on this?

Other than that this was before they had conceived any children, no, there is no time given. They were created as adults so it's not as if they had to grow or mature.

Why was there a Tree of Life in existence before the Fall if every living creature was already immortal? He was told he could eat of every tree other than the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and so he was allowed to eat of the Tree of Life. Is it possible that he was given freedom from physical death in that way, only to lose it again at the Fall?

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Since both trees were in the middle of the garden it may have been a multiple choice test. But in any case God did not permit Adam to eat of that tree after the transgression.

Who was Cain afraid of if only Adam and Eve were left alive? Who is God referring to by “anyone” and “no one” in 4:15?

Adam and Eve's other children. Who else would want to seek revenge for Abel’s death but his family.

How was there a “land of Nod” if the only human inhabitants on the Earth were Adam, Eve and Cain?

Why can't the land of Nod exist? This is just where Cain went. What name should it have been called? Sorry to answer with more questions, but I don't gather the relevance to how a land called Nod negates a literal Genesis.

Of course, the age-old “who did Cain marry”? [I found the "sisters" answer to be just a major cop-out]
Well, it sure wasn't brothers.


What group of people lived in Cain’s city? Cain, his wife and all their children.
Why does 5:1 need to point out that what follows is *Adam’s* line in particular? What other lines is Adam’s being distinguished from?

Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

It follows the line from Adam to Noah through Seth. It's not meant to distinguish from any other line. Every single generation is listed. I realize you may believe all those names are allegory, but I believe they are real individuals, or why else name them?

 

[herev]

GodSaves, you sound much more angry than you did when you first started posting here. Don't let this place get to you!

I have yet to see any TE use the Bible to show evolution.

and you rarely will. No self-respecting TE would do this in a normal situation. You have raised this comment for so long now, no one seems to notice it anymore. We TE's don't expect the Bible to speak to evolution, so why would we try to use it to show evolution? That, in itself, would go against one of the basest tennents of TE--that the Bible doesn't speak to HOW, but only the WHO and the WHY.

I have only seen TE's use the Bible to disprove what is in the Bible.

And I've never seen this--not once.

This is where there is not difference between TE's and atheists. You both use the same arguements against those who believe the Bible completely and those who are unwillingly to change it to fit anything of this world.

not nice, GS, not nice at all--basically, you are continuing to say things you know we do not believe. We do believe the Bible completely, just as you do. And for the most part, TE's are not interested in using anything against your beliefs--it's none of our business and we know it--we merely want creationists to quit treating us as less than (like comparing us to athiest).

You are correct, you don't change the words to save yourself from receiving the plagues God promised those who do add or subtract any Words from the Bible. To get around this you try and change the meanings of the Words, or in how to read the Words. It is a very clever trick, much like the phrase in the Bible : "Did God really say that..."

I assume you are referring to these words from Revelation 22:

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

problem is, the Bible is NOT a book, it is a collection of books. To take this quote from ONE BOOK and try to apply it to ALL OF THE BOOKS in the Bible is a poor showing of exegesis, hermeneutics, and Biblical interpetation.

TE's have come out and said creationism is a lie of Satan.

and that's not a nice statement, even if they belileve it, it could be worded better. It does sound more like something creationists say to us, though.

I will say loudly evolution is the greatest lie of today from Satan himself.

yea, like that!

It causes God's people to question what God really said, just like in the Garden of Eden.

Questioning is not the problem, the problem lies in whether one is willing to listen to the answers. God is big enough to handle the questions. He finally answered Job when he questioned Him repeatedly--and he was vague and said things like who are you to question. But Job was questioning God's motives, not his reasoning, his actions, or anything else. God did not punish Job for asking questions, either. Job was willing to listen to God when he answered, and accept the answers without question.

It cause first to question creation, then Adam and Eve, then Abraham, then the Flood, then Moses, then the Old Testament, then Jesus Christ being conceived by the Holy Spirit, and it will continue to lead one until they have concluded the whole Bible is a myth only to teach one to live morally.

:o The slippery slope argument is getting old, as well. The number of times you say it doesn't make it so.

I actually have (and continue to) studied the Bible from cover to cover. I actually have (and continue to) use such tools as literary criticism, historical criticism, source criticism, etc. to do such study--and I still believe in the Bible, still believe in Jesus as my lord and savior, still beleive in the Nicene Creed, etc. I AM a living example (one of many) that disproves your slippery slope argument.

It is evident that because of evolution many who are Christian question many things the Bible says.

You continue to blame evolution for this, yet there is no causal relationship here. There may be a corollary relationship, but no causal relationship.

Those who do so laugh at those who do not question the Bible.

Where to start with this sentence...
1) TE's do not question the Bible in the way you are suggesting--we accept is just as much as you do, we just interpret it differently.
2) Those that laugh are wrong. Might I suggest that many of them laugh at the "scientific" arguments, or logical shortcomings of their arguments in trying to condemn those who accept that God is big enough to have used evolution and still be God.
3) Most TE's respect your faith in creationism and your willingness to hold to it in spite of such strong evidence against it. What aggravates TE's is that most creationists are convinced that they have a direct line to God and a "higher" thought, faith, etc

They call those who don't unintelligent and fools.

Again, not good to call fellow Christians such names

Well it is the fool who questions God and His Authority.

Again, God can handle the questions, he merely wants us to listen to the answers with an open heart and an open mind
and I know of not one single TE anywhere who questions God's authority

The greatest of these fools is Satan himself.

Yup

 

[TwinCrier]

Questioning is not the problem, the problem lies in whether one is willing to listen to the answers. God is big enough to handle the questions. He finally answered Job when he questioned Him repeatedly--and he was vague and said things like who are you to question. But Job was questioning God's motives, not his reasoning, his actions, or anything else. God did not punish Job for asking questions, either. Job was willing to listen to God when he answered, and accept the answers without question.

Whoa, hold the phone! I thought we had concluded that Job, like Adam, was not an actual living human, but the subject of a parable. Trust me, if God ever answers me that evolution in any way, shape or form is valid, I will convert to the faith of evolution on the spot.

 

[TwinCrier]

I have yet to see any TE use the Bible to show evolution.

Don't you get it, you don't prove evolution with the bible, it's done with reason, science and knowledge. Then the bible can be accepted in the context in which it matches the interpretation of evidence.