Questions regarding Adam

[GodSaves]

Herev did you happen to read this verse as well?

Proverbs 30:6
Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

So herev, you are saying that all TE's believe the Bible? What about the account of the flood and how big is was, do they believe the Bible when it says this:

Genesis 7:19
They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered.


How about Jonah, do all TE's believe the Bible and when Christ talked of Jonah? Do all TE's believe Jonah was a real person? Christ talked about Jonah several times.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Matthew 12:39
He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.

Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.

Matthew 16:17
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Jesus being conceived by the Holy SPirit has been argued. Do all TE's believe the Bible when it says this:

Matthew 1:20
But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 1:18
This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.

Do all TE's believe Abraham was a real man. There is one here that argues he wasn't real. There hundreds of verses that pertain to Abraham, yet one doesn't accept he was real.


So tell me, why would Christ lead one to believe that these things are not true. All of these teachings had their origins in Christ. Christ moved people to write these accounts. These accounts are written in narrative and historical form, they are not poems. So why would Christ lead one to not believe Him? Christ wouldn't, it is Satan who suggests that you should question God's Words.

Fact is your faith in evolution leads you to question your faith in God. That is wonderful that you say you believe like me that Christ is God. Satan and his demons also believe that as well. Doesn't mean they are going to be saved. Satan even knows that all of the Bible is true, but that is not going to save him. Satan's job is to question God and to get as many people to question God as well. The slippery slope arguement tires you because your feet are already wet. You have already started down the road of questioning God. If you stop where you are at, that would be great. But there are many others who continue because they know that the world teaches something different then what is in the Bible.

Yours and others liberal use of the Bible doesn't anger me. It saddens me. You are allowing Satan to poison your mind, and you call it higher intelligence. The Bible says wisdom comes from God not man. Wisdom can be found in the Bible. Wisdom comes from letting go and letting God. Stop trying to pursue your own intelligence and allow God teach you His wisdom.

 

[Didaskomenos]

I have yet to see any TE use the Bible to show evolution. I have only seen TE's use the Bible to disprove what is in the Bible. This is where there is not difference between TE's and atheists. You both use the same arguements against those who believe the Bible completely and those who are unwillingly to change it to fit anything of this world.

The biggest reason I hesitate to call myself a theistic evolutionist is that I don't know science particularly well. I understand the process and consequences of natural selection, much as creationists who believe in "micro-evolution" do. But as you've apparently noticed, the vast majority of my posts are about the literary interpretation of Genesis 1-2. Let me put it this way: based on literary analysis, comparing the genre and imagery to contemporary literature, and the undeniable fact that the Bible, while inspired, is not dictation but literature, I am convinced that Genesis not only does not give a historical account of our origins, but was never intended to. So then, who do I ask if I want to know about our origins? Well, duh - the people who study such things for a living. Not those who set out to create science that agrees with a bad literary analysis.

You are correct, you don't change the words to save yourself from receiving the plagues God promised those who do add or subtract any Words from the Bible. To get around this you try and change the meanings of the Words, or in how to read the Words. It is a very clever trick, much like the phrase in the Bible : "Did God really say that..."

Ok, this is tangential, but you do realize that Revelation was referring to itself, not the as yet uncompiled 66 books of the Bible, don't you? Yeah, that's why it says "the words of the prophecy of this book," and "this book of prophecy."

TE's have come out and said creationism is a lie of Satan. I will say loudly evolution is the greatest lie of today from Satan himself. It causes God's people to question what God really said, just like in the Garden of Eden . . . It is evident that because of evolution many who are Christian question many things the Bible says. Those who do so laugh at those who do not question the Bible. They call those who don't unintelligent and fools. Well it is the fool who questions God and His Authority. The greatest of these fools is Satan himself.

Just because scoffers use the truth to belittle your faulty interpretations doesn't mean that the truth isn't true. And yes, interpreting the Bible in a literary/generic framework does require that you take the Bible not as some bland and transparent document, but as a dynamic tool, requiring thought and reason as well as prayer for intepretation. So I do question things said about what the Bible says, until I know for sure that it's the Bible really saying it - and not just Bob Jones, lucaspa, or GodSaves. That said, I challenge you to mention any doctrinal beliefs I hold outside bibliology that conflict with a mainstream evangelical theological belief.

It's as though God sent a primitive race a lazer gun. They promptly decided it was a divine aid, and extrapolated that because its source was supernatural, it was unnatural, even though the scientific principles that governed the functioning of the lazer gun were quite natural. The Bible was from God, but can and should be analyzed so that we know how to understand it.

Matthew 16:17
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

*nudge* uh, GodSaves, this was Peter's father's name...

 

[rmwilliamsll]

id this as 1-

I have yet to see any TE use the Bible to show evolution. I have only seen TE's use the Bible to disprove what is in the Bible. This is where there is not difference between TE's and atheists. You both use the same arguements against those who believe the Bible completely and those who are unwillingly to change it to fit anything of this world.

i am unsure of what to call this, generic/genetic fallacy?
interestingly i saw the same thing in another context

id this as 2-

If you were a Kerry supporter.. ask yourself.. did you pray to God that Kerry would win?

I've been praying every night and every day for months that God would give George W. Bush the strength, courage, wisdom, resolve, and peace he needed to win this race. I've prayed for all of his campaign workers, volunteers, and supporters.

Kerry supporters: Have you prayed for John Kerry?

Oh, that's right.. I forgot. Liberal Democrats are by and large godless heathens. Good riddance.

both are an interesting argument. Basically they say that the only proper way to do:
1-science is with the Bible.
2-politics is with prayer.

furthermore, that anyone who separates these fields:
1-theology from the biological sciences
2-politics from prayer
is wrong headed and the implication is that person is not a True Christian and/or is seriously deficient in their religion/science/politics


I would rather say that
addressed to 1- :The Scriptures inform and build the world view and metaphysics that a particular scientists uses in order to participate in science. That the science outlined in the Scriptures is in fact, the science of that historical period and is not applicable to modern science, for we now know that the world is not flat, that the sun does not revolve around the earth, that the universe is incredibly big and old.

addressed to 2-:we have clear commands in Scripture to pray for our leaders, it is nice you pray for Bush to win. i would prefer to pray for wisdom for whomever wins, and for me to understand God's wisdom in ruling the world as He sees fit. i suppose i am a little awkward at telling God who He should put in power.


but i am still at a loss to label this serious logical error seen above. does anyone know the name?

.....

 

[theFijian]

I have yet to see any TE use the Bible to show evolution.

And I've yet to see anybody use the Bible to show quantum mechanics!

 

[herev]

Whoa, hold the phone! I thought we had concluded that Job, like Adam, was not an actual living human, but the subject of a parable. Trust me, if God ever answers me that evolution in any way, shape or form is valid, I will convert to the faith of evolution on the spot.

1. First, I've never said Job wasn't real
2. Even if he wasn't the theological truths of Job can be quoted or alluded to for understanding God and our relationiship to Him
3. There is no "faith" of evolution

But, I agree, when God tells me that the creation account is literal, I'm convinced

 

[herev]

Herev did you happen to read this verse as well?

Proverbs 30:6
Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

Yes, but that was not the quote you used. However, in proverbs, we find no conflict with TE. It is not in adding to the scriptures that we find understanding. It is through interpretation, which you do as much as I.

So herev, you are saying that all TE's believe the Bible? What about the account of the flood and how big is was, do they believe the Bible when it says this:

no--nor do all creationists believe the flood was global, would you like to meet some--I'll be meeting with some in just a couple of hours.
I've not said that ALL TE's believe anything. My point was that you suggest all TE's believe such and such or don't believe such and such. It's not so.

How about Jonah, do all TE's believe the Bible and when Christ talked of Jonah? Do all TE's believe Jonah was a real person? Christ talked about Jonah several times.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Matthew 12:39
He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.

Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.

no, but I used to serve as youth counselor with a woman who KNEW (her words) that Jonah was not to be interpreted as literal--and she STILL is a creationist.

Jesus being conceived by the Holy SPirit has been argued. Do all TE's believe the Bible when it says this:

Matthew 1:20
But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 1:18
This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.

see above--believe in these things is not related to evolution. However, the interpretation of Matthew can be influenced by the same mindset as used to interpret evolution. You continue to assume that this is a result of belief in eovlution rather than a correllary relationship.

Do all TE's believe Abraham was a real man. There is one here that argues he wasn't real. There hundreds of verses that pertain to Abraham, yet one doesn't accept he was real.

It's probably more than one, but that still is not a causal relationship.

So tell me, why would Christ lead one to believe that these things are not true. All of these teachings had their origins in Christ. Christ moved people to write these accounts.

Again, the problem is that your assumption rests in the notion that you have a monopoly on truth or even relationship with Christ with these types of comments.

These accounts are written in narrative and historical form, they are not poems.

Yeah, well, most scholars I know would disagree with this comment.

So why would Christ lead one to not believe Him? Christ wouldn't, it is Satan who suggests that you should question God's Words.

Christ would not lead one to not believe Him. I do believe Him, and I believe every word He said. You continue to use insulting comments like this despite being offended when others use such words about creationists. Its simply not nice GS.

Fact is your faith in evolution leads you to question your faith in God.

as I have just told you this is not so, then to state this is a fact is either calling me a liar or proving you don't know what a fact is. Which is it?

That is wonderful that you say you believe like me that Christ is God. Satan and his demons also believe that as well. Doesn't mean they are going to be saved.

Questioning my salvation again? My salvation is not (nor yours) based on a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 and 2. My salvation is based on a saving belief in Jesus as my LOrd and Savior.

Satan even knows that all of the Bible is true, but that is not going to save him.

Believing the Bible to be true is not an issue here, since you have been told repeatedly we do believe the Bible is true. Do you not tire of circles?

Satan's job is to question God and to get as many people to question God as well.

No, Questioning God leads many to salvation. It is a normal part of the salvific experience. Satan comes to steal, kill, and destroy. He is the deceiver, yes, but you have yet to convince me that the deception lies only on one part of the fence.

The slippery slope arguement tires you because your feet are already wet. You have already started down the road of questioning God.

I have always questioned God, he's always answered. It's a great relationship we have. And as long as my feet are wet, they are not bogged down in dried mud, so I am free to move and learn, open minded, and not assuming I know everything. you should try pouring some water on that dried cement around your feet.

If you stop where you are at, that would be great. But there are many others who continue because they know that the world teaches something different then what is in the Bible.

Thanks for your approval of my faith--it wasn't asked for, it isn't necessary, but thanks all the same.
But as to many others, why do you insist that evolution is the FIRST step for them? You continue to put causal relationships where they don't belong.

Yours and others liberal use of the Bible doesn't anger me. It saddens me. You are allowing Satan to poison your mind, and you call it higher intelligence. The Bible says wisdom comes from God not man. Wisdom can be found in the Bible. Wisdom comes from letting go and letting God. Stop trying to pursue your own intelligence and allow God teach you His wisdom.

The worst and most blatant of your insults comes at the end. Really, you must one day take off your judgment hat. It was made to fit Christ and looks woefully pitiful on your head. Once again, you do not know me well enough to make these accusations. YOu could ask, or better yet, you could just accept what I have said here. God is not my co-pilot, he's my pilot. I follow His will for my life 100%. I have given up nearly everything material to follow Him--have you? I have devoted my life to full time service to His ministry. I have spent most of my life studying His words and will, his History and His being. I have done so with prayer and with humility. I have done so while always seeking the guidance of the HOly Spirit. Your continued judgmental attitude towards my salvation, my faith, and my beliefs are not welcome. God will judge me in due time. Until then, why not choose to fellowship with those who are different than you, rather than judge them. With less condescension and condemnation, you might even pursuade others to listen to what you have to say. God is my teacher. The Holy Spirit is his vehicle. You are neither.
Good day.

 

[TwinCrier]

Vance, since you were complaining because no one addressed your questions I addressed each point. http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=10303801#post10303801I'm sure you'll disagree, but I can't draw conclusions for you, I can only tell you what seems obvious to me from the bible.

Now you can dismiss it all and tell me I'm ignorant or misinterpreting scripture. Go on, I know you want to.

 

[Micaiah]

I originally wrote these down when I was in Jr. High School (private Christian School) and asked them to one of my teachers and my father, a minister. I found the answers they gave unconvincing:

I've heard you refer to your father more than once now. There seems to be some antagonism toward his beliefs. Be careful not to allow emotions felt toward your father cloud your appraisal of the teaching of Scripture.

If the entire earth was an “earthly paradise”, why did God need to create the Garden of Eden in particular?

Where was Adam before he was “placed” in the Garden (2:8, 2:15)?

If Adam, after the Fall was “banished from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken” (3:23, NIV), does this mean that he was banished to work the ground where he had been before being placed in the Garden?

How long was Adam, and then Eve, in the Garden before the Fall? (If physical death came to Man with the fall, then they were previously immortal and could have been there any length of time) Is there anything in the Scripture which provides information on this?

Why was there a Tree of Life in existence before the Fall if every living creature was already immortal? He was told he could eat of every tree other than the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and so he was allowed to eat of the Tree of Life. Is it possible that he was given freedom from physical death in that way, only to lose it again at the Fall?

Who was Cain afraid of if only Adam and Eve were left alive? Who is God referring to by “anyone” and “no one” in 4:15?

How was there a “land of Nod” if the only human inhabitants on the Earth were Adam, Eve and Cain?

Of course, the age-old “who did Cain marry”? [I found the "sisters" answer to be just a major cop-out]

What group of people lived in Cain’s city?

Why does 5:1 need to point out that what follows is *Adam’s* line in particular? What other lines is Adam’s being distinguished from?

Refer to the responses by TwinCrier above. I think they resolve most of your queries. I'd agree with one of the previous OP's. Your questions sound like those posted by a rebellious teenager out to prove a point and try to find fault with the plain teaching of Scripture.

 

[Vance]

Well, there is no conflict with my father since he completely believes as I do now. And back then, I wrote those questions out of curiosity, not rebellion. I honestly expected there to be clear answers from my teachers and my father, being a minister with a college degree in Biblical Studies. True, I was a bit shocked by the nature of their responses, with led me to begin to read these passages less literally than those at the school and church I attended. I still assumed evolution was wrong and the earth must be young, but it was obvious to me that Genesis 1 and 2 could not be read literally.

 

[Vance]

If the entire earth was an “earthly paradise”, why did God need to create the Garden of Eden in particular?

Earthly paradise simply because there is no sin or death. It seems clear that the Garden was to provide food and water, as God gives permission for them to eat of any tree, except that one.

First, where in Genesis does the Scripture say that there was no death in the earth at that time?

Second, was there not food and water in the rest of the world? The question is still not answered, why did God need to create the Garden if the entire world was an earthly paradise? What major characteristics did the Garden have that the "outside" world not have?

Could it not have been that the world outside was just as we find from the evidence of God's Creation, the natural world? The Garden, therefore, whether literal or figurative, was the special place created in which Man was placed (again, either literally or figuratively) to have the opportunity to commune with God directly and in which Man, having free will, could choose eternal life or "the knowledge of good and evil", obedience or disobedience.

Where was Adam before he was “placed” in the Garden (2:8, 2:15)?

Outside the garden. Sorry if that seems simplistic, but most of the best answers are. Let's not try to make this more difficult.

Right, he was outside the Garden. Exactly where he would be if the race of Man had evolved down to that point.

If Adam, after the Fall was “banished from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken” (3:23, NIV), does this mean that he was banished to work the ground where he had been before being placed in the Garden?

That seems a logical conclusion.

Again, he is being sent BACK out where he was before.

Why was there a Tree of Life in existence before the Fall if every living creature was already immortal? He was told he could eat of every tree other than the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and so he was allowed to eat of the Tree of Life. Is it possible that he was given freedom from physical death in that way, only to lose it again at the Fall?

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Since both trees were in the middle of the garden it may have been a multiple choice test. But in any case God did not permit Adam to eat of that tree after the transgression.

Right, but this did not answer the question. Why would someone who already HAD eternal life need a tree to give it to him. It does not make much sense that this tree was only useful if you had already eaten of the other tree and were condemned, since we see that this meant immediate banishment. I don't think God would created the Tree of Life for nothing, so it had to have a reason for being. If it's purpose was to grant eternal life, then this would only be effective for someone who did not already have eternal life. Thus, Adam must have been mortal at the time he was placed in the Garden.

The Cain issues are addressed in another thread.

 

[horuhe00]

No one's given me a good answer yet!

Did Adam have a belly button???

 

[Ben_Hur]

No one's given me a good answer yet!

Did Adam have a belly button???

Probably.