Questions on the extent of God’s sovereignty.

[Hammster]

That is not what I said,
God is allowing mature adults to have their own autonomous free will thoughts, which they will be held accountable for having,, but God may not allow them to act out their personal desires.

But you said He could intervene, right? “Yes, God can prevent man from doing any ‘action.’”

 

[Hammster]

Well, I suggest one think all doctrinal ideas on this topic are likely incomplete and also usually partly right and partly wrong. That will radically change how one discusses those doctrines/ideas, in that then I don't see someone as being entirely wrong or entirely right when they state a doctrinal idea (but they can be entirely wrong about thinking their doctrine is exhaustively descriptive of all the aspects of the topic).

I’ll agree with Sproul when he said he thought he was 80% right about his theology. He just didn’t know where he was wrong.

So, I guess we will keep General Theology open.

 

[bling]

But you said He could intervene, right? “Yes, God can prevent man from doing any ‘action.’”

Yes, but thoughts are not actions and God has allowed mature adults to have some limited autonomous free will thoughts, so man can obtain Godly type Love of their own free will.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, but thoughts are not actions and God has allowed mature adults to have some limited autonomous free will thoughts, so man can obtain Godly type Love of their own free will.

Nobody has argued that thoughts are actions, so your point here isn’t relevant.

 

[bling]

Nobody has argued that thoughts are actions, so your point here isn’t relevant.

Your OP asked only about "actions", so I answered it about God controlling all people's actions, but you cannot apply God controls all our actions to God controlling all of our thoughts, so do you see how man can still have some autonomous free will over his thoughts?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

That blows your theory then.

I think you misunderstood the idea I was putting forth.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

That blows your theory then.

I think you misunderstood the idea I was putting forth.

 

[Hammster]

Your OP asked only about "actions", so I answered it about God controlling all people's actions, but you cannot apply God controls all our actions to God controlling all of our thoughts, so do you see how man can still have some autonomous free will over his thoughts?

Not really. If God can intervene then even when He doesn’t it is still Him being in control. Whatever happens still has a purpose.

 

[Hammster]

I think you misunderstood the idea I was putting forth.

You’ll have to explain it more clearly, then. Right now, I’m going off what you posted.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

You’ll have to explain it more clearly, then. Right now, I’m going off what you posted.

What I previously posted:
"Of course He can intervene, but looking at the world around us, it is evident He does not..."
I am not sure how much clearer to make that. I would entertain questions...

 

[Hammster]

What I previously posted:
"Of course He can intervene, but looking at the world around us, it is evident He does not..."
I am not sure how much clearer to make that. I would entertain questions...

And I asked:

Can God choose to stop the rock from falling on your head?

You said

Absolutely.

I also will assume that you’d agree that God could cause a rock to fall on your head. Or God could have not created the rock at all.

So regardless of how you look at it, God controls all things. Your view, as understood, is dangerously close to deism.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Hard to tell when your first post was in line with open theism.

Well, when dealing with a strawman, you either set it on fire or dance around it and laugh.

I guess in this case though, I could just keep walking.

God bless.

 

[bling]

Not really. If God can intervene then even when He doesn’t it is still Him being in control. Whatever happens still has a purpose.

You say: "If God can intervene and doesn't He is still in control", but if He is not intervening, then why is God He not allowing the human to control his thoughts. The human decided and can be held accountable for those thoughts God did not control. God allowed Eve to lust, covet and selfishly desire that which she should not have and God allowed Eve to act upon those desires, so was God controlling Eve?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

And I asked:

You said

I also will assume that you’d agree that God could cause a rock to fall on your head. Or God could have not created the rock at all.

So regardless of how you look at it, God controls all things. Your view, as understood, is dangerously close to deism.

Thanks for the discussion. I think you are intentionally not trying to understand, or you do understand and just don't want to admit to it.
Either way, I have some things to do.

 

[Mark Quayle]

“First Cause” does not mean there was just one singular “first cause” like one big bang, that everything now is the result of, but God is constantly causing.

How not? If one cause is under logical necessity of the other's causes, it is by definition, not first cause.

There is no cosmic law out there keeping God from providing mature adult humans with very limited ability (limited autonomous free will ability) to be the first cause of a thought they have in their mind, even if God prevents them from acting on that thought.

God is certainly power enough, knowledgeable enough and Loving enough, to provide mature adult humans with this ability, so they can become Loving like God out their own free will choice.

Then logic is no cosmic law. But it is not that logic doesn't allow God to do anything, since logic proceeds FROM God, but rather that God has no need to deal with empty, self-contradictory, speculations. For example, no matter how knowledgeable or loving, God has no need to answer to anyone's self-contradictory notions. It is not that he can't, but that it is bogus nonsense to even consider that anything or anyone but God has absolute autonomy, no matter how narrow ("limited") its scope.

 

[Bob Crowley]

Care to answer at least one of the questions in the OP?

Does God know every action man might freely choose? If so, can He let man do that action if it suits His purpose? Also, can He intervene to prevent man from performing that action?

The short answer is "I don't know". I'm not in a position to psychoanalyse God.

To go on at a bit more detail the first thing that we need to know is whether God is going to be interested in all our choices. Is He interested in what I decide to have for breakfast tomorrow? He may foresee me sitting down to eat a bowl of muesli, bran and banana (I can even foresee myself sitting down to do so even though the decision is almost foreordained as it is what my wife and I did today).

I suppose if He saw I was going to sit down to a plate of bacon and eggs, and then slap a ton of butter on my toast, and use it to wipe up the bacon fat in the frying pan He might try to draw my attention to the health aspect - maybe draw my gaze to an advertisement in a local rag about the benefits of eating less fat. But then He might not either. Would He care?

One incident I use refers to the Battle of Midway. Up till then the Japanese Navy had careened all over the Pacific with hardly a backward step. Only six months before they had attacked Pearl Harbour. But they made two mistakes - they didn't send a second wave to look for the US carriers and they didn't bomb the fuel tanks. The US navy would have been forced back to San Diego had they done that.

Did God use "force majeure" or subtle sleight of hand to get the Japanese commanders to overlook this fact? Like I said I don't know.

Secondly at Midway itself, the first wave of bombers which hit the Japanese carriers were almost out of fuel, but they were guided by a Japanese destroyer playing catch up to the main fleet after it had been diverted to attack an American submarine. It only became visible through a break in the clouds.

Battle of Midway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Air Group Commander C. Wade McClusky, Jr. decided to continue the search, and by good fortune spotted the wake of the Japanese destroyer Arashi, steaming at full speed to rejoin Nagumo's carriers after having unsuccessfully depth-charged U.S. submarine Nautilus, which had unsuccessfully attacked the battleship Kirishima.[113] Some bombers were lost from fuel exhaustion before the attack commenced.[114]

Did God -

1. Creat the break in the clouds?
2. Get Air Group Commander Wade McClusky to decide to follow the destroyer or did he do that himself?
3. Did God use the earlier US torpedo bombers to distract the Japanese admiral event though they were themselves all shot down and nearly all the pilots lost?

Personally I think God was involved. I think as far as He was concerned the Japanese fleet had gone far enough, and it was time to change the entire course of the Pacific War. So he made a destroyer visible to an American pilot and distracted the Japanese admiral enough that they were busy refuelling when the US bombers struck.

The entire US and Japanese defence staff had free will. Yet God only had to confirm the thinking of one man - Wade McClusky - to change the course of the whole war.

Which brings me back to the short answer - "I don't know", and I'm not going to rattle off a bunch of conflicting Bible verses to make my point.

 

[Hammster]

You say: "If God can intervene and doesn't He is still in control", but if He is not intervening, then why is God He not allowing the human to control his thoughts. The human decided and can be held accountable for those thoughts God did not control. God allowed Eve to lust, covet and selfishly desire that which she should not have and God allowed Eve to act upon those desires, so was God controlling Eve?

Oh my. Yes, God controlled that situation. God made the law. God made Satan. God allowed Satan in the Garden. God didn’t intervene. Why? Because the cross was the center point of His plan. It was the purpose for the creation.

 

[Hammster]

Thanks for the discussion. I think you are intentionally not trying to understand, or you do understand and just don't want to admit to it.
Either way, I have some things to do.

I understand. I just don’t think you’ve thought this through.

 

[Hammster]

The short answer is "I don't know". I'm not in a position to psychoanalyse God.

To go on at a bit more detail the first thing that we need to know is whether God is going to be interested in all our choices. Is He interested in what I decide to have for breakfast tomorrow? He may foresee me sitting down to eat a bowl of muesli, bran and banana (I can even foresee myself sitting down to do so even though the decision is almost foreordained as it is what my wife and I did today).

I suppose if He saw I was going to sit down to a plate of bacon and eggs, and then slap a ton of butter on my toast, and use it to wipe up the bacon fat in the frying pan He might try to draw my attention to the health aspect - maybe draw my gaze to an advertisement in a local rag about the benefits of eating less fat. But then He might not either. Would He care?

One incident I use refers to the Battle of Midway. Up till then the Japanese Navy had careened all over the Pacific with hardly a backward step. Only six months before they had attacked Pearl Harbour. But they made two mistakes - they didn't send a second wave to look for the US carriers and they didn't bomb the fuel tanks. The US navy would have been forced back to San Diego had they done that.

Did God use "force majeure" or subtle sleight of hand to get the Japanese commanders to overlook this fact? Like I said I don't know.

Secondly at Midway itself, the first wave of bombers which hit the Japanese carriers were almost out of fuel, but they were guided by a Japanese destroyer playing catch up to the main fleet after it had been diverted to attack an American submarine. It only became visible through a break in the clouds.

Battle of Midway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Did God -

1. Creat the break in the clouds?
2. Get Air Group Commander Wade McClusky to decide to follow the destroyer or did he do that himself?
3. Did God use the earlier US torpedo bombers to distract the Japanese admiral event though they were themselves all shot down and nearly all the pilots lost?

Personally I think God was involved. I think as far as He was concerned the Japanese fleet had gone far enough, and it was time to change the entire course of the Pacific War. So he made a destroyer visible to an American pilot and distracted the Japanese admiral enough that they were busy refuelling when the US bombers struck.

The entire US and Japanese defence staff had free will. Yet God only had to confirm the thinking of one man - Wade McClusky - to change the course of the whole war.

Which brings me back to the short answer - "I don't know", and I'm not going to rattle off a bunch of conflicting Bible verses to make my point.

Thankfully, I do know because scripture tells us.

 

[Servus]

What I previously posted:
"Of course He can intervene, but looking at the world around us, it is evident He does not..."
I am not sure how much clearer to make that. I would entertain questions...

The thing with God intervening is, there's no way for us to know when he does so, because whatever he prevented from happening never happened.