Questions on some things in the book The Great Divorce

[Dorothea]

Hi, all,

I finished The Great Divorce days ago, but met last night with the ladies to discuss the book. I had a few questions for which I asked the one other gal who had finished the book already like I did to see what she thought, and then I told her I was coming here to ask because I know some folks know C.S. Lewis quite well (Rusmeister!), and so, here are some questions I had:

1. What are or who are the "Solid People?" - my friend at the ladies group believes these are the people permanently in heaven. What's your take?

2. What's the difference between the Spirits and Ghosts? We're thinking the Spirits are in heaven because they seem to be guiding and telling the ghosts things.

3. Are the Ghosts people visiting from earth or from hell?

4. Where exactly is the author/narrator? It sounded like hell at first and then somewhat closer to heaven. Friend believes he's in heaven.

5. What is the meaning of the man with the horse? The mouse turns into a horse? I know it's good because he rides off toward the mountains (which seems to be towards heaven)? My friend says she believes the man worked out his sins/passions and that is why the mouse turned to a horse. I did notice things would grow larger if the person overcame their sins.

6. What does the very end mean with the siren? Or is that just representing regular life?

7. Is the tiny man with the creepy thespian on the leash - the thespian a representation of his passions?

8. The tiny man with the thespian becomes so small he disappears (I think this happened with someone else)...does this mean he didn't overcome his passions/sins or wouldn't accept heaven?

9. Are the "Bright People" the same as the Spirits or the Solid People? Is there a difference between all three or are they the same?


I think that's it for now. Thanks, all!

 

[Mary of Bethany]

1. What are or who are the "Solid People?" - my friend at the ladies group believes these are the people permanently in heaven. What's your take? Yes, those who have "chosen" Heaven.

2. What's the difference between the Spirits and Ghosts? We're thinking the Spirits are in heaven because they seem to be guiding and telling the ghosts things. The ghosts are those who are just off the bus, and haven't decided to stay.

3. Are the Ghosts people visiting from earth or from hell? Hell - they have died and are awaiting the final judgement.

4. Where exactly is the author/narrator? It sounded like hell at first and then somewhat closer to heaven. Friend believes he's in heaven.
He is one of the ghosts who chose to take the bus trip to Heaven. He started out in Hell, like the other ghosts.

5. What is the meaning of the man with the horse? The mouse turns into a horse? I know it's good because he rides off toward the mountains (which seems to be towards heaven)? My friend says she believes the man worked out his sins/passions and that is why the mouse turned to a horse. I did notice things would grow larger if the person overcame their sins. I don't remember that character exactly, but your friend is right about what was happening.

6. What does the very end mean with the siren? Or is that just representing regular life? Yes, it wakes him from his dream, back to his real life

7. Is the tiny man with the creepy thespian on the leash - the thespian a representation of his passions? IIRC, it's symbolic of his passions, and his false "face" that he has always shown everyone, until it actually takes him over.

8. The tiny man with the thespian becomes so small he disappears (I think this happened with someone else)...does this mean he didn't overcome his passions/sins or wouldn't accept heaven? Yes, see above.

9. Are the "Bright People" the same as the Spirits or the Solid People? Is there a difference between all three or are they the same? The Bright People are the Saints, the Solid People. If you remember, those who have chosen Heaven move ever toward the mountains, ie, towards God. So everyone there is still journeying toward God.

Just fyi - "Hell" in this book isn't the Hell of the final judgement. It's really more like Hades. Just before the Narrator is woken up by the siren, he sees the Sun coming up, meaning that the Day of the Kingdom has finally dawned, for those in Heaven, and for those in Hades.


Mary

 

[MKJ]

Hi, all,

I finished The Great Divorce days ago, but met last night with the ladies to discuss the book. I had a few questions for which I asked the one other gal who had finished the book already like I did to see what she thought, and then I told her I was coming here to ask because I know some folks know C.S. Lewis quite well (Rusmeister!), and so, here are some questions I had:

1. What are or who are the "Solid People?" - my friend at the ladies group believes these are the people permanently in heaven. What's your take?

Yup. The longer you are in Heaven, the more solid - the more real and more completely yourself - you become.

2. What's the difference between the Spirits and Ghosts? We're thinking the Spirits are in heaven because they seem to be guiding and telling the ghosts things.

The ghosts are the disembodied souls of people. The spirits are angels.

3. Are the Ghosts people visiting from earth or from hell?

Not from Earth. They are people who are already dead, so you could say they are from Hell or Purgatory. There is some indication in the text that they are the same - for those who stay in Heaven, it was purgatory, and for those who never stay, it is Hell.

Also, there is the idea that we will look back on our lives on Earth in a similar fashion - if we end up in Heaven we will look back to see our whole life as part of that in some sense, and the same for Hell.

4. Where exactly is the author/narrator? It sounded like hell at first and then somewhat closer to heaven. Friend believes he's in heaven.

When do you mean? He is, IIRC, with the crowd though the whole story, but he is not really part of the crowd. He is a kind of outside observer, someone who you might say is having a sort of vision.

5. What is the meaning of the man with the horse? The mouse turns into a horse? I know it's good because he rides off toward the mountains (which seems to be towards heaven)? My friend says she believes the man worked out his sins/passions and that is why the mouse turned to a horse. I did notice things would grow larger if the person overcame their sins.

I thought it was a lizard? Yes, the implication was that the creature was a sort of besetting sin that he was a slave to somehow. One thing to notice is that it was not actually killed when he gave it up - it was transformed into something good and strong and full of energy. The sin was a perversion of something good. Another interesting thing to notice is that presumably this man did not manage to give up this sin in life.

6. What does the very end mean with the siren? Or is that just representing regular life?

I think that was where he was called back into regular life? But I am not remembering this clearly - it seems to indicate the narrator has been having a dream or vision of some kind. There are indications too that this vision, while perhaps a true vision, is not one that is meant to be taken literally, and that it is not clear that it represents time in the normal way we think about it.

7. Is the tiny man with the creepy thespian on the leash - the thespian a representation of his passions?

No, I would not say so. The thespian is the face that he presents to the world, a kind of persona that he has created, so that it is impossible for others to really interact with the true person. Perhaps it was originally a protective mechanism or something like that. Most people do this to some degree, but this man has presumably taken it rather far.

8. The tiny man with the thespian becomes so small he disappears (I think this happened with someone else)...does this mean he didn't overcome his passions/sins or wouldn't accept heaven?

It means that he adopted this fake persona, which was not a whole person at all, to the degree that his real self simply wasted away to nothing. He was, in a sense, no longer a real man, and certainly not someone who could exist in Heaven. There was nothing left to become more solid.

9. Are the "Bright People" the same as the Spirits or the Solid People? Is there a difference between all three or are they the same?

I am afraid I don't remember this.

I think that's it for now. Thanks, all![/quote]

 

[Dorothea]

Thank you so much, Mary and MKJ! My friend and I absolutely LOVED this book, and really, there's so much to say about it, but those were my main questions, and your answers brought me even more clarity and it gave me edification seeing what all that meant. How fantastic!

Also, I am still curious about the little guy with the fake persona. Wow. That one really was disturbing to me when I read it. I noticed the woman who was talking with him was called a Saint and that when she smiled, the author said something like how could anyone deny or reject anything she had to say? (paraphrasing). She tried to help her....I'm thinking that was her husband? .... to come out of that shell of the fake person. It was actually quite moving and kinda sad when he didn't listen and got swallowed up by that.

Also, I noticed that the other ghosts' stories, many of them, they rejected what the Spirits told them and invited them to see. And you would just read their dialogue (sometimes it got to just them talking on and on), trying to justify themselves and rejecting what was being said...you knew what their sins were without Lewis having to spell it out for you. That was brilliant, imo. Also, I could see myself identifying with these folks to a certain degree.

Now that you all have said they are in the place of kinda like a taste of hell before the final judgment, it makes so much sense! Also, this ties right into our Orthodox understanding of choosing heaven or hell.

We were just blown away by this book. My friend had never read Lewis before, and neither had I except LWW and TMN from the Narnia series, and she said, "What is wrong with me?! Why haven't I ever read him before?!" LOL It was 100 times better than even I thought it was going to be!

I'm only sad the book ended, I was enjoying it so much!

 

[Dorothea]

Oh, I just thought about this while reading Met. Savas' sharing of a poem on animals that he likes....

The Saint woman in it that angels were singing when she appeared and people and especially animals were following her. All these dogs and cats and such. I know it's not a true story, but I like to think of my pets in heaven, but I do know there will be animals there, and some we probably never saw on earth, so I love reading stuff like that.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I'm glad you love it. I can read that book over and over again and never tire of it. Lewis shows how our "little", subtle, sins can become so deadly to us. Whether it's intellectual pride (like the bishop) or holding on to hurts, or unhealthy love of our children, or control, or, or, or! They all can keep us from Heaven!

Lord have mercy!

Mary

 

[Dorothea]

I'm glad you love it. I can read that book over and over again and never tire of it. Lewis shows how our "little", subtle, sins can become so deadly to us. Whether it's intellectual pride (like the bishop) or holding on to hurts, or unhealthy love of our children, or control, or, or, or! They all can keep us from Heaven!

Lord have mercy!

Mary

I know! He's very insightful...what's the word for someone who can really read into people?

 

[MKJ]

Thank you so much, Mary and MKJ! My friend and I absolutely LOVED this book, and really, there's so much to say about it, but those were my main questions, and your answers brought me even more clarity and it gave me edification seeing what all that meant. How fantastic!

Also, I am still curious about the little guy with the fake persona. Wow. That one really was disturbing to me when I read it. I noticed the woman who was talking with him was called a Saint and that when she smiled, the author said something like how could anyone deny or reject anything she had to say? (paraphrasing). She tried to help her....I'm thinking that was her husband? .... to come out of that shell of the fake person. It was actually quite moving and kinda sad when he didn't listen and got swallowed up by that.

Also, I noticed that the other ghosts' stories, many of them, they rejected what the Spirits told them and invited them to see. And you would just read their dialogue (sometimes it got to just them talking on and on), trying to justify themselves and rejecting what was being said...you knew what their sins were without Lewis having to spell it out for you. That was brilliant, imo. Also, I could see myself identifying with these folks to a certain degree.

Now that you all have said they are in the place of kinda like a taste of hell before the final judgment, it makes so much sense! Also, this ties right into our Orthodox understanding of choosing heaven or hell.

We were just blown away by this book. My friend had never read Lewis before, and neither had I except LWW and TMN from the Narnia series, and she said, "What is wrong with me?! Why haven't I ever read him before?!" LOL It was 100 times better than even I thought it was going to be!

I'm only sad the book ended, I was enjoying it so much!

I'm glad you enjoyed it as well.

I agree with what you said about him being so insightful about how sin affects us. He says in an introduction to Screwtape (I think?) that someone once asked him if were was an expert in that area of theology, and he said that no, his expertise was from the personal experience side of things.

If you enjoyed it so much, I think you will like Screwtape almost as much.

 

[Dorothea]

I'm glad you enjoyed it as well.

I agree with what you said about him being so insightful about how sin affects us. He says in an introduction to Screwtape (I think?) that someone once asked him if were was an expert in that area of theology, and he said that no, his expertise was from the personal experience side of things.

If you enjoyed it so much, I think you will like Screwtape almost as much.

I plan to read all the books in that book I got of him, but next on the list for us ladies is The Problem of Pain. Maybe Screwtape Letters after that.

 

[rusmeister]

Looks like the questions got answered before I got here!

Yes, the dwarf with the Tragedian is a "drama queen" who never lived honestly in his life and always put on an act, a mask (the Tragedian).

The Problem of Pain is a little more academic, but still at the level of the general public.

Glad you liked it. I feel on most sides - including, sometimes, even Orthodox folk, that I am cuckoo for my enthusiasm for what Lewis and Chesterton (and to a lesser extent, Belloc) have to say, and so feel very alone in my appreciation and admiration. It's rare and pleasant to see others get the tremendous gift that Lewis was for our time.

Lewis led me back to faith. His greatness seems limited mostly by the fact that you can "run out of" Lewis to read in a couple of years. My discovery that Chesterton was even greater came later, as well as the discovery that he is much harder to "run out of". But it is gratifying you get Lewis. At least someone else knows I'm not crazy.

 

[Dorothea]

Looks like the questions got answered before I got here!

Yes, the dwarf with the Tragedian is a "drama queen" who never lived honestly in his life and always put on an act, a mask (the Tragedian).

The Problem of Pain is a little more academic, but still at the level of the general public.

Glad you liked it. I feel on most sides - including, sometimes, even Orthodox folk, that I am cuckoo for my enthusiasm for what Lewis and Chesterton (and to a lesser extent, Belloc) have to say, and so feel very alone in my appreciation and admiration. It's rare and pleasant to see others get the tremendous gift that Lewis was for our time.

Lewis led me back to faith. His greatness seems limited mostly by the fact that you can "run out of" Lewis to read in a couple of years. My discovery that Chesterton was even greater came later, as well as the discovery that he is much harder to "run out of". But it is gratifying you get Lewis. At least someone else knows I'm not crazy.

That's wonderful that he brought you back to faith.

Yes, I very much like his work and will be reading all his books I have in the book I bought (plus others I don't have, I'm sure).

I forgot one other question that my friend brought up Tuesday night and I wasn't sure of either.

What was the meaning toward the end where MacDonald took the narrator to some place that had a chess table and spirits all around watching the pawns?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thank you so much, Mary and MKJ! My friend and I absolutely LOVED this book, and really, there's so much to say about it, but those were my main questions, and your answers brought me even more clarity and it gave me edification seeing what all that meant. How fantastic!

Also, I am still curious about the little guy with the fake persona. Wow. That one really was disturbing to me when I read it. I noticed the woman who was talking with him was called a Saint and that when she smiled, the author said something like how could anyone deny or reject anything she had to say? (paraphrasing). She tried to help her....I'm thinking that was her husband? .... to come out of that shell of the fake person. It was actually quite moving and kinda sad when he didn't listen and got swallowed up by that.

Also, I noticed that the other ghosts' stories, many of them, they rejected what the Spirits told them and invited them to see. And you would just read their dialogue (sometimes it got to just them talking on and on), trying to justify themselves and rejecting what was being said...you knew what their sins were without Lewis having to spell it out for you. That was brilliant, imo. Also, I could see myself identifying with these folks to a certain degree.

Now that you all have said they are in the place of kinda like a taste of hell before the final judgment, it makes so much sense! Also, this ties right into our Orthodox understanding of choosing heaven or hell.

We were just blown away by this book. My friend had never read Lewis before, and neither had I except LWW and TMN from the Narnia series, and she said, "What is wrong with me?! Why haven't I ever read him before?!" LOL It was 100 times better than even I thought it was going to be!

Interesting on what you noted with spirits, as I've long been of the mindset that ghosts are quite real.

 

[Dorothea]

Interesting on what you noted with spirits, as I've long been of the mindset that ghosts are quite real.

I'm not getting what you're saying, G.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Interesting on what you noted with spirits, as I've long been of the mindset that ghosts are quite real.

G,

in this book, the "ghosts" are people who have come up to Heaven from Hell/Hades and are so near to "nothing" compared to the Heavenly citizens that they are seen as ghosts.

Lewis's point is that Heaven is the most "real", solid, substantial place in creation, while all else is just a pale nothing. When the people first get off the bus that takes them there, they can't even walk on the grass because the grass is so solid, so much more "real" that it hurts them. Those who stay gradually become more solid themselves.

Lewis also makes the point that Hell/Hades is like an atom compared to the vastness of Heaven. So even though it seemed to those on the bus that they were in a vast place, the bus ends up coming up through a tiny crack in the ground of Heaven. Hell itself is close to nothing, unless you're in it.

So in this book the ghosts aren't like the disembodied spirits that some say can roam the earth after death, but rather are all who are not (yet) of the Heavenly realm.

Mary

 

[MKJ]

That's wonderful that he brought you back to faith.

Yes, I very much like his work and will be reading all his books I have in the book I bought (plus others I don't have, I'm sure).

I forgot one other question that my friend brought up Tuesday night and I wasn't sure of either.

What was the meaning toward the end where MacDonald took the narrator to some place that had a chess table and spirits all around watching the pawns?

The game is another allegory for the vision the narrator just had. The question he asked was to what extent was what happened in his vision determined by what had happened in the lives of the people while they were alive, and to what extent was it a new set of choices.

The book seems to leave the question unanswered.

 

[Dorothea]

G,

in this book, the "ghosts" are people who have come up to Heaven from Hell/Hades and are so near to "nothing" compared to the Heavenly citizens that they are seen as ghosts.

Lewis's point is that Heaven is the most "real", solid, substantial place in creation, while all else is just a pale nothing. When the people first get off the bus that takes them there, they can't even walk on the grass because the grass is so solid, so much more "real" that it hurts them. Those who stay gradually become more solid themselves.

Lewis also makes the point that Hell/Hades is like an atom compared to the vastness of Heaven. So even though it seemed to those on the bus that they were in a vast place, the bus ends up coming up through a tiny crack in the ground of Heaven. Hell itself is close to nothing, unless you're in it.

So in this book the ghosts aren't like the disembodied spirits that some say can roam the earth after death, but rather are all who are not (yet) of the Heavenly realm.

Mary

Yeah, that little crack representing Hades was quite remarkable when I read it.

 

[Dorothea]

The game is another allegory for the vision the narrator just had. The question he asked was to what extent was what happened in his vision determined by what had happened in the lives of the people while they were alive, and to what extent was it a new set of choices.

The book seems to leave the question unanswered.

Hmmm, still not totally understanding what you're saying. I must be in a fog.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I'm not getting what you're saying, G.

Dorothea, for clarification, one can go here, here, here, here, here, here, here , here and here, where Thekla and I were involved in a rather detailed discussion on the subject of Christians on Earth and In Heaven (
You were there for the earlier conversation we had, as I recall ) - on the idea pertaining to how those who've departed are present/aware and that the Lord (if he so allows ) can let others come back to share things - a notable example being Saul talking to Samuel the Prophet...and Christ talking with Moses/Elijah. As shared elsewhere, even those who've been condemned by the Lord to Hades/Hell could come back to warn others of a upcoming fate (similar to what occurred with Ebenezer Scrooge in "A Christmas Carol")...and having no glory, they are like ghosts. The Saints, however, are always glorious...and as Christ arose in a physical and glorified body of a SPIRITUAL nature, it'd not make sense for the Saints to be in glory and not be solid as Christ is solid (I Corinthians 15).

Hope that clarifies...

G,

in this book, the "ghosts" are people who have come up to Heaven from Hell/Hades and are so near to "nothing" compared to the Heavenly citizens that they are seen as ghosts.

Lewis's point is that Heaven is the most "real", solid, substantial place in creation, while all else is just a pale nothing. When the people first get off the bus that takes them there, they can't even walk on the grass because the grass is so solid, so much more "real" that it hurts them. Those who stay gradually become more solid themselves.

Lewis also makes the point that Hell/Hades is like an atom compared to the vastness of Heaven. So even though it seemed to those on the bus that they were in a vast place, the bus ends up coming up through a tiny crack in the ground of Heaven. Hell itself is close to nothing, unless you're in it.

So in this book the ghosts aren't like the disembodied spirits that some say can roam the earth after death, but rather are all who are not (yet) of the Heavenly realm.

Mary

Hey Mary

I got all that the first time I read Lewis - although thanks for sharing. I never advocated that ghosts are just disembodied spirits roaming around - as all are in process and anything seen as it concerns "ghosts" are passing through to the next stage and not fully in the Heavenly realm.

 

[MKJ]

Hmmm, still not totally understanding what you're saying. I must be in a fog.

Well, I wasn't as clear as I might have been - its a confusing bit of the story I think.

I think to understand it we need to remember that the story is not meant to be a sort of scientific description of how people actually go to Heaven and are judged (or how they judge themselves which is what seems to be happening here.)

It is an allegory, really talking about the nature of the soul - a lot like the Divine Comedy. In the allegory we see the people struggling with their human issues, making choices and judgements, all supposedly in the afterlife.

In the image with the game board, the ghosts are watching the whole drama unfold before them, as if someone or something else is controlling the choices, judgements, and outcomes. The ghosts themselves seem to be passive observers and the outcome seems to be set.

So what is it that is determining the outcomes of their judgement? The suggestion is that the drama we see in the vision is in some way a recapitulation of the way they lived their lives. The choices they made in life are in some sense determining what they are choosing in death. It is in this life that we are living out that drama, and we do not know whether we will have any opportunities to spiritually grow in a way that would lead to different choices after this life.

 

[MKJ]

G,

in this book, the "ghosts" are people who have come up to Heaven from Hell/Hades and are so near to "nothing" compared to the Heavenly citizens that they are seen as ghosts.

Lewis's point is that Heaven is the most "real", solid, substantial place in creation, while all else is just a pale nothing. When the people first get off the bus that takes them there, they can't even walk on the grass because the grass is so solid, so much more "real" that it hurts them. Those who stay gradually become more solid themselves.

Lewis also makes the point that Hell/Hades is like an atom compared to the vastness of Heaven. So even though it seemed to those on the bus that they were in a vast place, the bus ends up coming up through a tiny crack in the ground of Heaven. Hell itself is close to nothing, unless you're in it.

So in this book the ghosts aren't like the disembodied spirits that some say can roam the earth after death, but rather are all who are not (yet) of the Heavenly realm.

Mary

This is very similar to what you see too in The Last Battle in the Narnia books, when Aslan says that all the "real" worlds are actually sorts of pale instantiations of real places - Narnia is still recognizable as Narnia, but much more real and solid than the Narnia the inhabitants new before.