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Questions on Revelation

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FirstStrikeForce

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Here is what I do not know for sure about the Book of Revelation. It is not everything, but it covers the primary things I am interested in hearing from others.

Sometimes it is helpful to actually hear some possible explanation out there which we have never heard before from a human being... then we can better believe God on the interpretation.

I should note, I have studied. I have prayed. I have yet to receive an answer on many of these items. I am sure that I will. Even soon. But, I will be open about the many things I do not know at this time.

I do not know how long it is until Revelation begins. I do consider the start of the opening of the Seven Seals to be the first part of Revelation here. I also consider the whole of Revelation to be what is called the "Day of the Lord".

I do not know if the opening of the Seven Seals has even begun yet.

I do not know the timeline of the Seven Seals. I do not know how long this period of time would be: would it be three years or so, would it be a hundred years. I do not know.

I do not know what the "great tribulation" is. I do not know if this is future or past or present from where it is presented in Revelation.

This same chapter, chapter seven, speaks of the 144,000 being sealed. It does seem to state that only 144,000 are sealed at that time. The next part of that chapter then speaks of the "great tribulation". So, it would seem that the great tribulation happens before this sealing -- and only this 144,000 are left.

But, I do not know this for sure.

I do not know where the Lord would get people from all of the twelve tribes of Israel. Only Judah is left. We can surmise that survivors of the other tribes may be here or there. But, they are not calling themselves Jews. And, they have intermarried for milleniums of generations.

I do know that we are all brought into Israel through Jesus Christ. So, likely that figures there.

I do think it is highly likely that some of these disasters spoken of in Revelation may be literal. We know today that when a volcano erupts or a meteor hits or even with a severe earthquake which can happen with a fault line breaking and volcanos erupting -- we know that these events, if severe enough, can put dust over the entire world, making the moon red and darkening the day and night.

I do know that Israel will stand against the Anti-Christ's kingdom.

I do know that spiritual Israel and physical Israel will be reunited.

I do know that there will be and may already be a great "falling away".

This brings me back to Chapter Seven of Revelation. With the juxtaposition of the sealing of the 144,000 and the showing of the survivors of the "Great Tribulation" it would seem to mean that a great falling away and the "great tribulation" had happened before that time -- but, I am not sure.

What is especially odd about this chapter, however, is that the anti-christ's kingdom is really not even set up, yet.

We know there are many anti-christs in the world. We have seen their surfacing. Many nations in the world are ruled by tyrants who have their people under totalitarian control. We know that that is anti-Christ behavior. We also know that Christians are getting slaughtered and have been slaughtered in great masses in these types of countries.

Yet, if the whole world of Christians is going to get slaughtered en masse like this, as it states that they will be: why is this not explicitly spoken of in Revelation beforehand? Why is it not until the three woes that we really see evidence of a global scale attack by these powers?

It may be possible that only the 144,000 are sealed, but the rest are set to death: glorification through death.

But, I am not sure, yet.

After all, Revelation does say to come out of Babylon. Revelation does speak of resistance against the Beast's kingdom. Revelation does also speak of a mass beheading of Christians by the Beast.

Yet, is this mass beheading and calls to stand fast only for the 144,000? Because if it is, it would seem there would be very few people left in Israel at all to stand against the forces of the Beast, when they attack at Armageddon.

Those are my main unknowns left about Revelation. I do believe Revelation happens in a linear progression. I know there are prologues and a few timelines which are stated, which I hold to. I wish I could say I entirely rule out everything else, but I do not.

As for Babylon, the Two Witnesses, the war in Heaven and such, on such matters I have no questions. Feel free to ask me, if you wish.

I do not mind pre-tribulational rapturists attempting to answer these questions, however please answer them. I would love for that doctrine to be true because it would mean we could have so much less sheer carnage, it appears. But, I simply have never seen anyone who espouses that viewpoint explain the very verses on the "great tribulation" itself. So, I have not accepted that doctrine.
 

FirstStrikeForce

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justified said:
What is the genre of Revelation? What kind of book is it? Before you interpret it, you need to decide that.

What?

Anyway, I can't interpret anything: I can hear out interpretations and consider possibilities, but ultimately it is God who explains such a thing as I noted right off in my post.

God has explained many things to me, but there are some matters here which I have been kept in mystery on.

Often, God uses people to speak through to me and to all of us. Ultimately, however it is His testimony alone which matters.
 
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justified

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What?

Anyway, I can't interpret anything: I can hear out interpretations and consider possibilities, but ultimately it is God who explains such a thing as I noted right off in my post.

God has explained many things to me, but there are some matters here which I have been kept in mystery on.

Often, God uses people to speak through to me and to all of us. Ultimately, however it is His testimony alone which matters.

Do you know what the word genre means? Why did you ignore the question? use dictionary.com
 
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interpreter

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FirstStrikeForce said:
I do not know how long it is until Revelation begins. I do consider the start of the opening of the Seven Seals to be the first part of Revelation here. I also consider the whole of Revelation to be what is called the "Day of the Lord".

I do not know if the opening of the Seven Seals has even begun yet.
John tells us that the things in the Revelation would start unfolding "with speed" (see Rev. 1:1,3). That means the opening of the first seal and the coming of the first horseman occured not long after John received the Revelation.

IMO, the first horseman is the coming of the first Christian conqueror, who was St. Constantine, in 312AD. He rode a white horse and conquered with a bow (see Rev. 6:1-2), and basically conquered all the known world on behalf of Jesus and the Church after seeing the "sign of the Son of Man in the clouds" (fulfilling Matthew 24:30). The opening of the first seal cannot signify a future event because conquerors no longer use a bow.

That is the historicist view of the Revelation (as opposed to the "futurist" view which says that everything is still in the future). Historicists can (and do) differ a bit on what is still future, but agree that the Revelation has been unfolding for many centuries.

I hope that helps,

Barry
 
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FirstStrikeForce

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vinsight4u said:
Hi,

The seals of Revelation

Begin back at Deuteronomy for your study clues.

KJV
Deuteronomy 32:20
"And he said, I will hide my face frrom them. I will see what their end [shall be]: for they [are] a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith."

God is speaking of Israel and how He will hide His face from them.

When will this prophecy happen?
Well, notice that by the end of the 6th seal -The One on the throne is showing His face and the wicked run to hide from Him.

So before the 6th seal -God will hide His face from Israel - as in turn away from blessing them big time as a nation.

v. 21
"They have moved me to jealousy with [that which is] not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with [those which are] not a people: I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation."


This brings us a bit more for this prophecy - When God hides His face from Israel -He will at that time be using a foolish nation to come against them.

So think of Revelation and the seals - as the time that God needs a nation -a people that hadn't been a people -thus the kingdom will have to begin and that nation will come against the land of Israel.

v 29
"O that they wre wise, [that] they understood this, [that] they would consider their latter end!"

Now we know this prophecy won't come to be -until the latter end.

v 34
[Is] not this laid up in store with me, [and] sealed up among my treasures?"

This prophecy is to be not something that happens within a few years. but it has been put off -as in laid up in store. It awaits the days of the latter end. Then it will be unsealed.

The nation that is to come against Israel.

At that time -verses 21-26 will take place. God will use that foolish nation to scatter Israel.
He will use the sword...beasts...hunger....

See a siimilarity to the same punishments found in the 4th seal?

The 4th seal is where the man of sin from Iraq will rule.
The 5th seal is the future great tribulation under that man of sin time.
1260 days/6th trumpet
By the end of the 6th seal/7th trumpet - Jesus has forgiven Israel and returned to free her from the wicked Iraqi ruler.
Here is the timing also for the resurrection of the just and the rapture of the church.

at that last trump
for the trumpet shall sound
1 Cor.15:51-54

Then to understand more as to the prophecy sealed up -we go to places in the bible such as:
Zechariah chapters 1, 5, 6
Isaiah 11:2
Proverbs 4:5-9
Proverbs 8:11-15
and more...

We are at the third seal of Revelation.

Thanks, vinsight4u, I will look into these and get back to you.
 
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FirstStrikeForce

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justified said:
Do you know what the word genre means? Why did you ignore the question? use dictionary.com

"A type or class".

The genre's for modern works: fiction, non-fiction, further romance, history, technical, and so forth I really do not see applying to the Bible.

If I were to give a genre to Revelation, it would be, of course, a prophetic book, but really Revelation is in a class for itself.

Some would call it "apocalyptic literature" though "Revelation" means "Apocalypse" and is really the definition of the entire class of apocalyptic literature.

Hence, I did not understand what you were trying to get at.
 
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FirstStrikeForce

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justified said:
Why would I change the way I discuss issues with Christians or vice versa? There was nothing unkind about what I typed.

I take no offense, though I appreciate that poster's concern.

I have replied to your question, regardless, explaining why I am confused at your question, largely.
 
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FirstStrikeForce

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interpreter said:
John tells us that the things in the Revelation would start unfolding "with speed" (see Rev. 1:1,3). That means the opening of the first seal and the coming of the first horseman occured not long after John received the Revelation.

IMO, the first horseman is the coming of the first Christian conqueror, who was St. Constantine, in 312AD. He rode a white horse and conquered with a bow (see Rev. 6:1-2), and basically conquered all the known world on behalf of Jesus and the Church after seeing the "sign of the Son of Man in the clouds" (fulfilling Matthew 24:30). The opening of the first seal cannot signify a future event because conquerors no longer use a bow.

That is the historicist view of the Revelation (as opposed to the "futurist" view which says that everything is still in the future). Historicists can (and do) differ a bit on what is still future, but agree that the Revelation has been unfolding for many centuries.

I hope that helps,

Barry

Thanks, Barry.

As for "with speed" the NIV version states:

"3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

The KJV version:

"3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. "

I could easily enough take this to the Greek, but I think you are stating this as a proof that these things happened during or shortly thereafter John's time.

I am familiar with the various views out there, though I thought it wise to come to people in my seeking and see what people have to say face to face rather then always simply relying on words on a page.

So, how do you address the core questions: who are the 144,000 and why are only they sealed, and when is the "great tribulation", from a historicist's viewpoint?
 
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justified

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"A type or class".

The genre's for modern works: fiction, non-fiction, further romance, history, technical, and so forth I really do not see applying to the Bible.

If I were to give a genre to Revelation, it would be, of course, a prophetic book, but really Revelation is in a class for itself.

Some would call it "apocalyptic literature" though "Revelation" means "Apocalypse" and is really the definition of the entire class of apocalyptic literature.

Hence, I did not understand what you were trying to get at.

Actually, it's more correct to say that "Revelation" means "Apocalypse." The title of the book is "Apokalyptos Iwannhn" in Greek, "Apocalypse of John." The book does have prophetic elements, but there is a serious difference between an Apocalypse (a genre of literature) and a prophecy (another genre). So which is it, and how do you tell?
 
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FirstStrikeForce

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justified said:
Actually, it's more correct to say that "Revelation" means "Apocalypse." The title of the book is "Apokalyptos Iwannhn" in Greek, "Apocalypse of John." The book does have prophetic elements, but there is a serious difference between an Apocalypse (a genre of literature) and a prophecy (another genre). So which is it, and how do you tell?

You mean it is more correct to say "Apocalypse" means "Revelation"...

I think classifications are fine, however they are limited. If I had to classify Revelation using the two classes "Apoclyptic" and "prophecy" I would not have it either or: I would classify it as "Apocalyptic Prophecy".
 
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FirstStrikeForce

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FirstStrikeForce said:
Thanks, vinsight4u, I will look into these and get back to you.

Okay, having looked at this, I do have issue with speaking of Israel being scattered. We know well that Israel has been scattered over the last Diaspora or Dispersion for this past some odd two millenium.

If you have that in there someplace, then that would be different.
 
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justified

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I think classifications are fine, however they are limited. If I had to classify Revelation using the two classes "Apoclyptic" and "prophecy" I would not have it either or: I would classify it as "Apocalyptic Prophecy".
That's nice, but you didn't give any info. WHY. What makes one and what makes the other.
 
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FirstStrikeForce

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justified said:
That's nice, but you didn't give any info. WHY. What makes one and what makes the other.

I thought that was self-evident...

It is apoclyptic and prophecy -- all Scripture is of the Spirit of Prophecy, however.

What are you getting at please.
 
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