Questions on Revelation

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[justified]

I thought that was self-evident...

It is apoclyptic and prophecy -- all Scripture is of the Spirit of Prophecy, however.

What are you getting at please.

It's not self-evident. Defend it. What i'm getting at is that you can't defend the book as a primarily prophetic book: what has Revelation to do with Amos or Micah? Those are prophetic books in terms of Genre, but Revelation is an Apocalypse by genre, like Daniel, parts of Isaiah, and like some extra-canonincal books such as I,II Enoch.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[interpreter]

Thanks, Barry.

As for "with speed" the NIV version states:

"3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

The KJV version:

"3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. "

I could easily enough take this to the Greek, but I think you are stating this as a proof that these things happened during or shortly thereafter John's time.

Correct. 312 AD is shortly after John's time. "With speed" is from verse 1 (and verse 3 says much the same thing).

So, how do you address the core questions: who are the 144,000 and why are only they sealed, and when is the "great tribulation", from a historicist's viewpoint?

The 144,000 who are sealed are clearly 144,000 virgin Jews who are protected from the great tribulation.

IMO, the great tribulation is WW II which lasted exactly 3 1/2 years after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor (making it truly a world war). Hitler's "Third Reich" (or Third Reign of Rome) is the third six of the 6-6-6 trilogy.

The 144,000 virgin Jews are the 144,000 young, unmarried men who escaped Hitler and his gas chambers, and made it to the Holy Land. In 1948, when Israel daclared itself a nation and defeated its Arab neighbors, a total of 144,000 young unmarried Jewish men were in the Holy Land and theoretically available for the Israeli army. 100,000 joined the new army, and 44,000 were orthodox Jews who refused to fight on religious grounds, becoming "concientious objectors."

Barry

 

[justified]

The 144,000 who are sealed are clearly 144,000 virgin Jews who are protected from the great tribulation.

No where is there anything to suggest "virgin." Please don't abuse God's Word with your lies.

 

[ross3421]

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No where is there anything to suggest "virgin." Please don't abuse God's Word with your lies.

The 144,000 who are sealed are clearly 144,000 virgin Jews who are protected from the great tribulation.

Justified,

You are correct, they are called virgins not because they have not been with a woman but because they have not committed fornication with the beast and received his Mark.

Also, they are probably a mixture of both male and female.

Mark.

 

[ForeverEndeavor]

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No where is there anything to suggest "virgin." Please don't abuse God's Word with your lies.

I would likewise advise you to be careful when you say someone is lying without being sure.

 

[justified]

I would likewise advise you to be careful when you say someone is lying without being sure.

Lies are not always intended as such.

 

[interpreter]

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No where is there anything to suggest "virgin." Please don't abuse God's Word with your lies.

Revelation 14:4 says about the 144,000:
These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins...

 

[interpreter]

Justified,

You are correct, they are called virgins not because they have not been with a woman but because they have not committed fornication with the beast and received his Mark.

The verse in question only says the 144,000 have not defiled themselves with a woman. See Rev.14:4

Also, they are probably a mixture of both male and female.

Wrong. They are said to be virgins who have not defiled themselves with a female. No mention is made of women who have not defiled themseves with a man. I'm sure there were some but they are not included in the 144,000 figure.

 

[justified]

The verse in question only says the 144,000 have not defiled themselves with a woman. See Rev.14:4

Careful how you word it. The Text reads οι μετα γυναικων ουκ εμολυνθησαν -- the passive "they have not been defiled with/by women"

The next phrase is the key one: παρθενοι γαρ εισιν. The root παρθενος is an unknown word as far as its origins. In every other of its 14 NT occurences, the word refers to only to women. Yet, there are examples (which I am not able to find now b/c it's sunday and libraries in england are closed) of people designates as παρθενοι having had intercourse. This is incontroversiable evidence that the word does not always mean "virgin."

Finally, παρθενος when applied to men, means properly "pure" -- that is, not having had sex with prostitutes.

Your misunderstanding of the text is due to a lack of knowledge of Greek and a lack of familiarity with ancient cultures which viewed "purity" differently for the sexes. There are lots of reasons for that, but it's a topic for a different thread.

 

[ross3421]

Wrong. They are said to be virgins who have not defiled themselves with a female. No mention is made of women who have not defiled themseves with a man. I'm sure there were some but they are not included in the 144,000 figure.

The remnant of Israel = 144,000 = sons and daughters

Eze 14:21For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?Eze 14:22Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.




Fornication (defiled) in the context of which we speak and in the context of Revelation is dealing with the harlot Babylon as it was in times past. When the inhabinants worshipped thier idols ect...

Re 14:8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Re 17:2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Re 17:4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Re 18:3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

The woman (harlot) is a city in which the king of the earth committed fornication by her riches. Now how were they to gain the riches? By receiving the Mark.

The 144,000 did not commit fornication with her and thus are virgins. It has nothing to do with sleeping or not sleeping with a woman. God forbid.


Mark.











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