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Questions on Intercession of the Saints

David Lamb

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The angels in Heaven interceded many times in the Old Testament. In Psalm 103 the angels are addressed. The saints in Heaven are not mentioned in the Old Testament. Those in Heaven do intercede for us, and the angels were joined by the saints in New Testament times.

“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd of Hermas 3:5:4 [circa 80-160 A.D. 80]).

“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Origen, Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).
Where do we find angels interceding in the Old Testament? Certainly not in Psalm 103. That says:

“Bless the LORD, you His angels, Who excel in strength, who do His word, Heeding the voice of His word.” (Ps 103:20 NKJV)

The word translated "bless" doesn't mean "intercede".

We also read in Psalms:

“2 Praise Him, all His angels; Praise Him, all His hosts! 3 Praise Him, sun and moon; Praise Him, all you stars of light!” (Ps 148:2-3 NKJV)

If that is the psalmist praying to angels, then he is also praying to the sun, moon and stars!

The Shepherd of Hermas is an apocryphal book.
 
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ozso

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Yes, when people ask for prayers on these forums I never think "Why don't they just go straight to God?" Our Creed, the Apostles Creed, speaks of the "communion of saints," so it is very natural to ask for prayers from them as it is asking people here on earth. From your words I think there might be a little misunderstanding in regard to Sacred Tradition. Our beliefs as Catholics come from both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, we believe Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture to be the Word of God. In fact, Sacred Scripture sprang forth from the Living Sacred Tradition passed down from Jesus. Sacred Tradition was first, so we would never say Sacred Tradition comes from Sacred Scripture. We can say that various Catholic traditions, liturgical traditions, etc. may come from either Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture or both. Finally, we realize God hears all of our prayers, but too we realize how powerful the prayers of the saints are and thus often ask the saints to pray for us.
There are Sacred Traditions that don't really have any scriptural backing, so one shouldn't attempt to back them up with scripture. I think there should be honesty involved regarding this by saying 'this is something the church started doing in the 4th century (or whatever century it started in) and while it is derived from certain passages in scripture, it's not really found in scripture'.
 
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Valletta

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Where do we find angels interceding in the Old Testament?

Genesis 19:1-25 RSVCE

[a]The two angels came to Sodom in the evening; and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and bowed himself with his face to the earth, 2 and said, “My lords, turn aside, I pray you, to your servant’s house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise up early and go on your way.” They said, “No; we will spend the night in the street.” 3 But he urged them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. 4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house; 5 and they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.” 6 Lot went out of the door to the men, shut the door after him, 7 and said, “I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. 8 Behold, I have two daughters who have not known man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof.” 9 But they said, “Stand back!” And they said, “This fellow came to sojourn, and he would play the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them.” Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and drew near to break the door. 10 But the men put forth their hands and brought Lot into the house to them, and shut the door. 11 And they struck with blindness the men who were at the door of the house, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves groping for the door. 12 Then the men said to Lot, “Have you any one else here? Sons-in-law, sons, daughters, or any one you have in the city, bring them out of the place; 13 for we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the Lord, and the Lord has sent us to destroy it.” 14 So Lot went out and said to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, “Up, get out of this place; for the Lord is about to destroy the city.” But he seemed to his sons-in-law to be jesting. 15 When morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.” 16 But he lingered; so the men seized him and his wife and his two daughters by the hand, the Lord being merciful to him, and they brought him forth and set him outside the city. 17 And when they had brought them forth, they[b] said, “Flee for your life; do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley; flee to the hills, lest you be consumed.” 18 And Lot said to them, “Oh, no, my lords; 19 behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life; but I cannot flee to the hills, lest the disaster overtake me, and I die. 20 Behold, yonder city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one. Let me escape there—is it not a little one?—and my life will be saved!” 21 He said to him, “Behold, I grant you this favor also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken. 22 Make haste, escape there; for I can do nothing till you arrive there.” Therefore the name of the city was called Zo′ar.[c] 23 The sun had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zo′ar. 24 Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomor′rah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; 25 and he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.

Genesis 48:16 RSVCE
the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads;
and in them let my name be perpetuated, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac;
and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.”

 
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Valletta

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There are Sacred Traditions that don't really have any scriptural backing, so one shouldn't attempt to back them up with scripture. I think there should be honesty involved regarding this by saying 'this is something the church started doing in the 4th century (or whatever century it started in) and while it is derived from certain passages in scripture, it's not really found in scripture'.
I strive for truth and honesty, I am glad you do too. "Sacred Tradition," like "Sacred Scripture," is in the singular form. Here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says, and note the difference between Sacred Tradition and tradition as explained in 83:
II. The Relationship Between Tradition and Sacred Scripture
One common source. . .

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"and [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44

Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions

83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus' teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. the first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.

Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church's Magisterium.

Finally, don't confuse when a practice became more popular with the beginnings of that practice. I quoted the The Shepherd of Hermas, which may date back as far as the first century. It was considered Holy Scripture by many early Christians, but it did not make the final canon of the Bible established by the Catholic Church in the late 300s. Nevertheless it is of historical value.
 
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ozso

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I strive for truth and honesty, I am glad you do too. "Sacred Tradition," like "Sacred Scripture," is in the singular form. Here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says, and note the difference between Sacred Tradition and tradition as explained in 83:
II. The Relationship Between Tradition and Sacred Scripture
One common source. . .

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"and [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44

Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions

83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus' teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. the first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.

Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church's Magisterium.

Finally, don't confuse when a practice became more popular with the beginnings of that practice. I quoted the The Shepherd of Hermas, which may date back as far as the first century. It was considered Holy Scripture by many early Christians, but it did not make the final canon of the Bible established by the Catholic Church in the late 300s. Nevertheless it is of historical value.
How does any of that justify applying inapplicable scripture to tradition?
 
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Valletta

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How does any of that justify applying inapplicable scripture to tradition?
It was apparent that your terminology was incorrect, I tried to straighten it out so that we could communicate clearly. As to mere traditions, clearly there are Protestant traditions and Catholic traditions that are not stated in Sacred Scripture.
 
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ozso

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It was apparent that your terminology was incorrect, I tried to straighten it out so that we could communicate clearly. As to mere traditions, clearly there are Protestant traditions and Catholic traditions that are not stated in Sacred Scripture.

It's not being said there can't be tradition outside of scripture.
The issue is applying inapplicable scripture to tradition.
 
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Deblee

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I don't mind revering saints from both the Latin and Eastern rites. Revere as in respecting and acknowledging their deeds. I'm also quite fond of remembering saints with feasts as a form of celebration. It adds to the continuity of believers from the times of Jesus' ministry to today.

Just I don't invoke any saints as intercession for prayers. In the matters of prayer I'm more inline with Protestantism that our Lord Jesus as the only intermediary we would need. Since Jesus has restored our relationship with the Father, I don't really see the need for any intermediary besides our Saviour.

I'm not against others doing so as I'm not strict in denominational differences since I believe all redeemed by our Lord belongs to the same family - God's. It is fine having siblings doing things their own ways so long it is in focus to the Lord.

I only wanted to get some clarification regarding some aspects of saint intercession by the Catholics/Apostolic churches.

I'm a Lutheran but rather consider myself a non-denominational Christian. So I don't hold any denominational teachings strictly. But there is one aspect of praying to the saints for intercession that baffles me. I know Catholics say that asking the saints for intercession is similar to requesting a friend to pray for you. Saints are alive in paradise and can hear requests from earth therefore it is acceptable to request for intercession.

Here are a few things I just can't comprehend and hope that someone here can better clarify.

1. We know for certain people who are saints like the disciples therefore invoking them are pretty much "safe" in prayers, but how sure are you when you invoke later, less well known and regional saints in prayer? Wouldn't it be presumptive about their afterlife status. I don't want to sound mean but how sure that these saints are even in paradise?

2. If we work on the basis that everyone in paradise is alive and in communion, why not just invoke relatives or friends who had passed away to intercede since they know us better? Or must intercession be only permissible by saints not regular believers? If only saints can intercede then wouldn't asking an earthly family member or friend to pray invalid?
I was attending a Baptist church that was infiltrated with tares, and the regular members refused to discern them. One of them was the new pastor, whom everyone loved. I learned that a certain group of people, along with the pastor, had instituted a deliverance ministry, which was based on a couple of YouTube videos! And the people in the group were the new ones I was very leery about.

At the same time, I was feeling the call of God to learn about the Catholic church, and so I looked up exorcists on YouTube and what I found impressed me greatly. I have had more experience with the demonic realm than most American Christians, enough to know you don't just jump in casting out demons after watching videos on YouTube. But Father Chad Rippberger is very sensible about the subject.

So, I stopped going to the Baptist church--didn't want to be in the vicinity when demons were getting cast out of people!--and started taking classes at the local Catholic church. Very interesting. I had a lot of questions, some of them similar to the ones you posed. I am very drawn to the Catholic church, but the question of Mary is one of the main obstacles preventing me from converting. (The main one is the question of the Eucharist, but that is not the topic here.)

I began to read the early church fathers' writings, because I realized that I was actually drawn to the Apostolic church, which is still taught by the Catholic church, though much other stuff has been layered over it through the centuries.

So far, I have not found any mention of Mary in those early writings. If I have overlooked anything, I hope someone will point it out to me. It seems to me, that if Mary was really the mother of God, the mother of the church and so on, someone would have noticed it before 400AD. Especially her contemporaries, like John the Apostle, or Barnabas, for instance. No mention of her doing signs and wonders like the Apostles.

Likewise, I see no mention of the early Church fathers asking deceased saints to intercede for them. Did Clement pray for Steven or Paul to intercede? Did Peter or John pray to Steven? Did Paul? He watched Steven being stoned, so I'm sure he had a pretty good idea that Steven was in heaven!

As far as I can tell so far, the practice of asking Mary or the saints to intercede came along later. I'm trying to keep an open mind. If someone can prove me wrong, I'll accept it.
 
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Valletta

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I was attending a Baptist church that was infiltrated with tares, and the regular members refused to discern them. One of them was the new pastor, whom everyone loved. I learned that a certain group of people, along with the pastor, had instituted a deliverance ministry, which was based on a couple of YouTube videos! And the people in the group were the new ones I was very leery about.

At the same time, I was feeling the call of God to learn about the Catholic church, and so I looked up exorcists on YouTube and what I found impressed me greatly. I have had more experience with the demonic realm than most American Christians, enough to know you don't just jump in casting out demons after watching videos on YouTube. But Father Chad Rippberger is very sensible about the subject.

So, I stopped going to the Baptist church--didn't want to be in the vicinity when demons were getting cast out of people!--and started taking classes at the local Catholic church. Very interesting. I had a lot of questions, some of them similar to the ones you posed. I am very drawn to the Catholic church, but the question of Mary is one of the main obstacles preventing me from converting. (The main one is the question of the Eucharist, but that is not the topic here.)

I began to read the early church fathers' writings, because I realized that I was actually drawn to the Apostolic church, which is still taught by the Catholic church, though much other stuff has been layered over it through the centuries.

So far, I have not found any mention of Mary in those early writings. If I have overlooked anything, I hope someone will point it out to me. It seems to me, that if Mary was really the mother of God, the mother of the church and so on, someone would have noticed it before 400AD. Especially her contemporaries, like John the Apostle, or Barnabas, for instance. No mention of her doing signs and wonders like the Apostles.

Likewise, I see no mention of the early Church fathers asking deceased saints to intercede for them. Did Clement pray for Steven or Paul to intercede? Did Peter or John pray to Steven? Did Paul? He watched Steven being stoned, so I'm sure he had a pretty good idea that Steven was in heaven!

As far as I can tell so far, the practice of asking Mary or the saints to intercede came along later. I'm trying to keep an open mind. If someone can prove me wrong, I'll accept it.
Let me start by saying that the Catholics believe that over time we can and do overall come to a deeper understanding of the deposit of faith that was passed down from Jesus, through the Apostles, and ended with the death of the last Apostle. Also various devotions at time become more popular and sometimes are eventually replaced with others. First, Elizabeth recognized Mary as the mother of God.

Luke 1: 43 43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? RSVCE

Of course Jesus is and was in the early centuries the focus of our faith. Now as per Isaiah, the queen mother in the Davidic kingdom, starting with Solomon, made requests and behalf of others to the king. Heaven was not open up to the saints at that time, but we do see the angels being addressed in prayer Psalm 103. Jews prayed Psalms. Mary's importance in salvation history, as the New Eve, was recognized in this quotation by Justyn Martyr:

“[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).

Saint Irenaeus said: In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to your word.” But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam but being nevertheless as yet a virgin … having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, became the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. . . . And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.” (Against Heresies, III.22.4)

Those are some starters for you. We believe the angels and saints intercede in prayer for us, you see the prayers of the saints spoken of in Revelation.
 
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IceJad

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I was attending a Baptist church that was infiltrated with tares, and the regular members refused to discern them. One of them was the new pastor, whom everyone loved. I learned that a certain group of people, along with the pastor, had instituted a deliverance ministry, which was based on a couple of YouTube videos! And the people in the group were the new ones I was very leery about.

At the same time, I was feeling the call of God to learn about the Catholic church, and so I looked up exorcists on YouTube and what I found impressed me greatly. I have had more experience with the demonic realm than most American Christians, enough to know you don't just jump in casting out demons after watching videos on YouTube. But Father Chad Rippberger is very sensible about the subject.

So, I stopped going to the Baptist church--didn't want to be in the vicinity when demons were getting cast out of people!--and started taking classes at the local Catholic church. Very interesting. I had a lot of questions, some of them similar to the ones you posed. I am very drawn to the Catholic church, but the question of Mary is one of the main obstacles preventing me from converting. (The main one is the question of the Eucharist, but that is not the topic here.)

I began to read the early church fathers' writings, because I realized that I was actually drawn to the Apostolic church, which is still taught by the Catholic church, though much other stuff has been layered over it through the centuries.

So far, I have not found any mention of Mary in those early writings. If I have overlooked anything, I hope someone will point it out to me. It seems to me, that if Mary was really the mother of God, the mother of the church and so on, someone would have noticed it before 400AD. Especially her contemporaries, like John the Apostle, or Barnabas, for instance. No mention of her doing signs and wonders like the Apostles.

Likewise, I see no mention of the early Church fathers asking deceased saints to intercede for them. Did Clement pray for Steven or Paul to intercede? Did Peter or John pray to Steven? Did Paul? He watched Steven being stoned, so I'm sure he had a pretty good idea that Steven was in heaven!

As far as I can tell so far, the practice of asking Mary or the saints to intercede came along later. I'm trying to keep an open mind. If someone can prove me wrong, I'll accept it.

I have the same issue regarding Mary as you do. While the bible did say Mary is the mother of Jesus, it is to my understanding only an earthly role that is not carried over after death. For Jesus said Himself that after death our earthly bonds are not the same. We become like the angels in heaven.

Matthew 22:25-30

25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27 Finally, the woman died. 28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”

29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Of course some Catholics believe that Mary never died and was taken to heaven alive like Elijah. Some say she died but was resurrected then carried to heaven. Which I would contest that both as it was not recorded by the apostles such as John Zebedee (since he was entrusted to look after her by Jesus). Because in the entire biblical history not many individuals got carried to heaven in their earthly bodies. Therefore it would be important event to be recorded down.

To me she is just a saint like all believers are. I personally don't mind people invoking Mary in prayers but I don't find it to be theologically sound given that Jesus has said He is the way, the truth and the life. No one goes to God the Father except through Him.

John 14:5-6

5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
 
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Deblee

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Actually the Bible says Mary is the "mother of Our Lord." "Our Lord" is a reference to God. Why do you think Mary quit being the Mother of God once she left this earth?
"Our Lord" refers to Jesus Christ. Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ as He existed in this physical realm in His incarnated body. She is not the mother of God the Father or of the Holy Spirit, or even of Jesus Christ as He existed in His spiritual state before He was incarnated.

A parent, by definition, must exist prior to his or her child. Mary did not pre-exist God, therefore she cannot be the mother of God.
 
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jas3

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"Our Lord" refers to Jesus Christ. Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ as He existed in this physical realm in His incarnated body. She is not the mother of God the Father or of the Holy Spirit, or even of Jesus Christ as He existed in His spiritual state before He was incarnated.
There is only one Jesus Christ, not two. Either she's His mother or not, and the Bible says she is.
 
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prodromos

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A parent, by definition, must exist prior to his or her child.
No, it is not by definition, it is just what normally happens in almost every other instance of conception, the person conceived is newly created by God at that moment. In the case of Christ's incarnation, He already existed before He was conceived in Mary's womb, but Mary still carried Him in her womb and nurtured Him at her breast, the same as any mother does with her child.

Some people seem to have this idea that a mother (and father), create their child, and so the "creator" by necessity must exist before their "creation". However, no child is created by their parents, that role is God's alone, and He does so using flesh from each of a child's parents, in His Son's case, using flesh from Mary alone.
 
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Deblee

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No, it is not by definition, it is just what normally happens in almost every other instance of conception, the person conceived is newly created by God at that moment. In the case of Christ's incarnation, He already existed before He was conceived in Mary's womb, but Mary still carried Him in her womb and nurtured Him at her breast, the same as any mother does with her child.

Some people seem to have this idea that a mother (and father), create their child, and so the "creator" by necessity must exist before their "creation". However, no child is created by their parents, that role is God's alone, and He does so using flesh from each of a child's parents, in His Son's case, using flesh from Mary alone.
Are you saying that Jesus Christ did not exist until Mary gave birth to him? Who was His mother before Mary came along? Answer: no one, because God does not have a mother. He has existed forever.

She only contributed her DNA to His physical body, and that's why she is called His mother.
 
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Deblee

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I have the same issue regarding Mary as you do. While the bible did say Mary is the mother of Jesus, it is to my understanding only an earthly role that is not carried over after death. For Jesus said Himself that after death our earthly bonds are not the same. We become like the angels in heaven.



Of course some Catholics believe that Mary never died and was taken to heaven alive like Elijah. Some say she died but was resurrected then carried to heaven. Which I would contest that both as it was not recorded by the apostles such as John Zebedee (since he was entrusted to look after her by Jesus). Because in the entire biblical history not many individuals got carried to heaven in their earthly bodies. Therefore I would be important event to be recorded down.

To me she is just a saint like all believers are. I personally don't mind people invoking Mary in prayers but I don't find it to be theologically sound given that Jesus has said He is the way, the truth and the life. No one goes to God the Father except through Him.
No one goes to the Father except through Jesus Christ.

You can argue all day about whether this or that saint is actually in heaven, or whether Mary is the mother of God or not, but all of that becomes irrelevant IF you believe the above words spoken to us by Jesus Christ Himself.

If He was telling the truth, you are wasting your time going to anyone else as an intercessor between yourself and God.

IceJad, I believe you have put your finger on the crux of the matter, so to speak. Thank you.
 
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Deblee

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No one goes to the Father except through Jesus Christ.

You can argue all day about whether this or that saint is actually in heaven, or whether Mary is the mother of God or not, but all of that becomes irrelevant IF you believe the above words spoken to us by Jesus Christ Himself.

If He was telling the truth, you are wasting your time going to anyone else as an intercessor between yourself and God.

IceJad, I believe you have put your finger on the crux of the matter, so to speak. Thank you.
It has never been my intention to convince anyone else that they are wrong in their beliefs. It's practically impossible to do that anyway. I am on a spiritual journey, seeking for the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but. Right now I'm seeking truth in the Catholic Church, and there is a lot to be found there. But there are also untruths, just as there are in Protestant churches. In order to sift the wheat from the chaff, I have to ask pointed questions, trying to learn from people why they believe what they believe.

I was not raised in church. I was raised an atheist. I was not saved in church. I was saved in a building that had once been a seminary, where I was working, in the middle of the night, where the presence of the Holy Spirit was very strong. It was just a Bible, God the Father, and me. He sent a scripture to my heart like an arrow and gave me to understand that He wanted me to follow His Son, Jesus Christ. So I said yes.

I have always prayed directly to my Father, in the name of Jesus Christ. He answers my prayers and cares for me as if I were His own daughter, lol! I don't really understand why anyone would want to go to someone other than Daddy with their troubles, but I have a pretty open mind.

I've been struggling with this whole issue of petitioning Mary and the saints instead of just asking our Dad for help, for about a year, but I think I can finally lay it to rest.

I'm well aware that I go through Jesus to get to my Father, and that's because Jesus, and only Jesus, hung on the cross and paid for my sins.

Bless the Lord, O my soul, and all that is within me, Bless His holy name! No one gets to our Father but through Him. Simple.
 
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Valletta

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Are you saying that Jesus Christ did not exist until Mary gave birth to him? Who was His mother before Mary came along? Answer: no one, because God does not have a mother. He has existed forever.

She only contributed her DNA to His physical body, and that's why she is called His mother.
Prodomos never said that. Remember also that God is above time. I think you should read the post by prodomos again. The early Christians understood Mary was the mother of God. The logic is simple: Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God. Thus Mary is the mother of God.
 
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Deblee

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Prodomos never said that. Remember also that God is above time. I think you should read the post by prodomos again. The early Christians understood Mary was the mother of God. The logic is simple: Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God. Thus Mary is the mother of God.
Valletta said: The early Christians understood Mary was the mother of God.

Depends which "early Christians" you are talking about. It was the Council of Nicea around 400 AD who decided on that. If that were the generally held belief before that time, the Council would have been unnecessary.

From the time of Jesus until 400 years later Mary was known as the mother of Jesus, period. If you can point me to documentary evidence to the contrary from that time period, I will surely read it and consider it carefully and respectfully.
 
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Deblee

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Valletta said: The early Christians understood Mary was the mother of God.

Depends which "early Christians" you are talking about. It was the Council of Nicea around 400 AD who decided on that. If that were the generally held belief before that time, the Council would have been unnecessary.

From the time of Jesus until 400 years later Mary was known as the mother of Jesus, period. If you can point me to documentary evidence to the contrary from that time period, I will surely read it and consider it carefully and respectfully.
Valletta said: Jesus is God.

This is true, but it is not true to say God is Jesus. In other words, God is also other things besides Jesus. The nature of the Trinity is impossible for humans to grasp completely.

You could say that

Jesus = God, but you cannot say that

God = Jesus, because

God = Jesus + the Father + the Holy Spirit.

To the human mind, this is an impossible equation, yet we know it to be true because He told us so. I believe that the very human drive to understand something we can never understand leads to wrongful conclusions.

Mary can be the mother of Jesus, but she cannot be the mother of God because God = Jesus + the Father + the Holy Spirit. And Mary is not the mother of the Father ( which is ludicrous), or of the Holy Spirit.

Now if you choose to believe something else, that is your right. But this is where I stand, and also the fact that Jesus is the only way to God -- because He said so, and because He alone paid the price for my sins and therefore He sanctfies me by taking my sins upon Himself so that I can be pure enough to approach the throne of my Father.

This is the rock I stand on.
 
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