Questions on Intercession of the Saints

[Valletta]

That's a good explanation of how it works. But it begs the question why no one ever asked anything of Moses for example. Why the only person throughout all of scripture who was appealed to in prayer is God. (Psalm 103:20 is not David asking the angels for anything). I think maybe people started appealing to others in heaven for intercession because they became afraid of approaching God directly.

Heaven was not opened up until Jesus died and was resurrected.

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. RSVCE

We are told that the prayer of a righteous man has great power. All in Heaven are righteous.

 

[ozso]

Heaven was not opened up until Jesus died and was resurrected.

How can that be the case when 2 Maccabees 15 is cited as scriptural evidence of communicating with the saints in heaven?

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. RSVCE

We are told that the prayer of a righteous man has great power. All in Heaven are righteous.

That's talking about an equal exchange between one another. Therefore if it includes the saints in heaven, it means that they confess their sins to us and we pray for them so they may be healed and vice versa.

 

[Valletta]

How can that be the case when 2 Maccabees 15 is cited as scriptural evidence of communicating with the saints in heaven?

That's talking about an equal exchange between one another. Therefore if it includes the saints in heaven, it means that they confess their sins to us and we pray for them so they may be healed and vice versa.

The angels (minus those that had been cast out) were in Heaven. Heaven was not opened up to Moses, for example, until the death and resurrection of Jesus. Prayer is not about "equal exchange." God tells us to pray for one another, that there is power in such prayer. Catholics believe those in Heaven are alive, not dead, and we ask them to pray for us. It is an avenue God gives us, and I, and many others, need all the help we can get. Those who have not sinned, such as newborns or angels in Heaven, don't have sins to confess to anyone.

 

[ozso]

Heaven was not opened up to Moses, for example, until the death and resurrection of Jesus. Prayer is not about "equal exchange." God tells us to pray for one another, that there is power in such prayer. Catholics believe those in Heaven are alive, not dead, and we ask them to pray for us. It is an avenue God gives us, and I, and many others, need all the help we can get.

You're not listening or you're deflecting.

2 Maccabees 15 is cited as scriptural evidence of praying to saints in haven and them interceeding for us.

In 2 Maccabees 15, Jeremiah up in heaven reaches down and gives a gold sword to Judas down on the earth.

2 Maccabees 15 takes place before the birth of Jesus.

Pray for one another clearly means pray for each other. To confess sins to each other and to pray for each other that each other might be healed.

That's the very clear and obvious context of James 5:16.

 

[Valletta]

You're not listening or you're deflecting.

2 Maccabees 15 is cited as scriptural evidence of praying to saints in haven and them interceeding for us.

In 2 Maccabees 15, Jeremiah up in heaven reaches down and gives a gold sword to Judas down on the earth.

2 Maccabees 15 takes place before the birth of Jesus.

Pray for one another clearly means pray for each other. To confess sins to each other and to pray for each other that each other might be healed.

That's the very clear and obvious context of James 5:16.

I cited James and Psalm 103, not 2 Maccabees.

 

[ozso]

I cited James and Psalm 103, not 2 Maccabees.

2 Maccabees 15 was cited in this thread and has been cited in other threads discussing praying to the saints in heaven by Catholics as scriptural citation of incession with saints in heaven.

The belief that saints could intercede for the living after death wasn't new in Christianity, either, as we see in 2 Maccabees 15.

 

[concretecamper]

Once saved always saved.

The Church has never taught this

Or how about, Francis Appoints Homosexualists to Shape Doctrine?

This isn't changing teaching.

I ask again, what new material has the Church come up with that is in conflict with what the Apostles and Church Fathers taught ?

 

[ozso]

The Church has never taught this

The Catholic church hasn't, but it's an example of a teaching that was added on centuries later.

This isn't changing teaching.

I ask again, what new material has the Church come up with that is in conflict with what the Apostles and Church Fathers taught ?

I didn't say material in conflict with. I said new material centuries after they died. Such as a lot of what's contained in Mariology and praying to saints in heaven.

 

[concretecamper]

The Catholic church hasn't, but it's an example of a teaching that was added on centuries later.

I didn't say material in conflict with. I said new material centuries after they died. Such as a lot of what's contained in Mariology and praying to saints in heaven.

I ask again, please give us all an example of something that was added later that is in conflict of what the Apostles or Church Fathers believed.

 

[ozso]

I ask again, please give us all an example of something that was added later that is in conflict of what the Apostles or Church Fathers believed.

You're asking a question about something I didn't say. If you ask it 100 more times, the answer is still going to be "I did not say that". If you're playing games and trying to rope me into something, it's not going to work.

 

[Valletta]

2 Maccabees 15 was cited in this thread and has been cited in other threads discussing praying to the saints in heaven by Catholics as scriptural citation of incession with saints in heaven.

It appears to be a vision of Jeremiah interceding. Or do you disagree?

 

[ozso]

It appears to be a vision of Jeremiah interceding. Or do you disagree?

In the passage it's described as a vision a sort of dream. Regardless of that 2 Maccabees 15 has been used numerous times, usually by Catholics, as proof text for praying to saints in heaven. Despite the fact that the interaction between that Judas and the spirit of Jerimiah in heaven occurred in "a dream a sort of vision".

 

[concretecamper]

Which is why the Church for the first few centuries did not add onto those instructions. Centuries after the Apostles, the Apostolic Fathers and earliest church fathers died, others started coming up with brand new material.

@Ceallaigh I responded to this.

 

[ozso]

@Ceallaigh I responded to this.

Thank you.

 

[DragonFox91]

Sometimes I feel Protestants over-corrected on this issue. I don’t think it really would be different than talking to someone here on earth. & the ‘it’s necromancy’ thing isn't right b/c they're not dead.

My problem w/ praying to the passed saints is it can be very difficult to know who’s truly saved & who’s not. Maybe you guys have a way of knowing for sure? If they were not, it makes no sense to pray to them. It'’d make sense to pray to them if you did know. Like praying to the apostles makes sense. Although I don’t b/c I can go right to the Father thru Christ. You pray to determine his will & give him glory, not beg a saint to do something for you. & if you pray to him, the saints there hear you.

 

[concretecamper]

Sometimes I feel Protestants over-corrected on this issue. I don’t think it really would be different than talking to someone here on earth. & the ‘it’s necromancy’ thing isn't right b/c they're not dead.

My problem w/ praying to the passed saints is it can be very difficult to know who’s truly saved & who’s not. Maybe you guys have a way of knowing for sure? If they were not, it makes no sense to pray to them. It'’d make sense to pray to them if you did know. Like praying to the apostles makes sense. Although I don’t b/c I can go right to the Father thru Christ. You pray to determine his will & give him glory, not beg a saint to do something for you. & if you pray to him, the saints there hear you.

Following this line of reasoning, are you going to ask people here on Earth not to bother to pray for you and your needs/intentions?

 

[Valletta]

In the passage it's described as a vision a sort of dream. Regardless of that 2 Maccabees 15 has been used numerous times, usually by Catholics, as proof text for praying to saints in heaven. Despite the fact that the interaction between that Judas and the spirit of Jerimiah in heaven occurred in "a dream a sort of vision".

Instructions concerning Prayer​

2 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:1–4 RSVCE

Catholics are not Bible-only, but when speaking with those who are may point out specific Bible passages that are supportive. We are to pray for one another, we know those in Heaven are alive, we know from the Bible the prayer of a righteous man is powerful, so it should be no surprise we continue the practice of asking those in Heaven to pray for us.

 

[Valletta]

Sometimes I feel Protestants over-corrected on this issue. I don’t think it really would be different than talking to someone here on earth. & the ‘it’s necromancy’ thing isn't right b/c they're not dead.

My problem w/ praying to the passed saints is it can be very difficult to know who’s truly saved & who’s not. Maybe you guys have a way of knowing for sure? If they were not, it makes no sense to pray to them. It'’d make sense to pray to them if you did know. Like praying to the apostles makes sense. Although I don’t b/c I can go right to the Father thru Christ. You pray to determine his will & give him glory, not beg a saint to do something for you. & if you pray to him, the saints there hear you.

If someone has been canonized as a saint then they are a saint. Also: "61 The patriarchs, prophets and certain other Old Testament figures have been and always will be honored as saints in all the Church's liturgical traditions."
Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 61
Likewise those in purgatory can pray for you, although the Bible does tell us the prayers of a righteous man have great power, and those in Heaven are for sure righteous. There are different kinds of prayers, while all are for God's glory, prayers for intercession are quite acceptable. Of course God hears all prayers and also lets the saints hear our prayers.

 

[ozso]

Instructions concerning Prayer​

2 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:1–4 RSVCE

Catholics are not Bible-only, but when speaking with those who are may point out specific Bible passages that are supportive. We are to pray for one another, we know those in Heaven are alive, we know from the Bible the prayer of a righteous man is powerful, so it should be no surprise we continue the practice of asking those in Heaven to pray for us.

I've read that apologetic many times before. You might as well be talking to another Catholic at this point because I'm so familiar with it now. Praying to the sprits of saints is not at all biblical. I know all the proof texts and they don't endorse it unless one wants to see what's not there. The only time there was actual intercession with the spirit of a saint in scripture, is when Saul get a witch to summon the spirit of Samuel through occult practices in 1 Samuel 28.

 

[Valletta]

I've read that apologetic many times before. You might as well be talking to another Catholic at this point because I'm so familiar with it now. Praying to the sprits of saints is not at all biblical. I know all the proof texts and they don't endorse it unless one wants to see what's not there. The only time there was actual intercession with the spirit of a saint in scripture, is when Saul get a witch to summon the spirit of Samuel through occult practices in 1 Samuel 28.

You don't ask a spirit to pray for you, you ask your friends or neighbors or the saints in Heaven. Remember that God is the God of the living. You could say the Bible alone does not "prove" the intercession of saints any more than it does the existence of the Holy Trinity. No one is forcing you to ask your friends or the saints to pray for you. It is another avenue given to us by God, but I would encourage those who believe to take advantage of it. Saint Augustine did:
'So then, as we celebrate with our festive gatherings the birthday of this great man, the Lord's forerunner, the blessed John, let us ask for the help of his prayers."

E02433: Augustine of Hippo preaches in Latin a sermon on the feast of the birthday (natale) of *John the Baptist (S00020), condemning sacrilegious customs, still kept on his day, mostly by young people. Sermon 293B, preached probably in AD 401 in Car

Augustine of Hippo, Sermon 293B[In natale sancti Iohanni'On the birthday of St John']1. Natalem hodie magni hominis celebramus. Nemo, inquit scriptura, surrexit maior inter mulierum natos. Hoc de illo dixit uirginis natus: hoc testimonium perhibuit testi suo: hanc sententiam protulit iudex de...

portal.sds.ox.ac.uk

401 A.D.