Questions on God's wrath and the Fall

[KevinT]

How do you define "success"? How do you understand eternal conscious torment - if it is forever, how does it teach people to succeed? What happens for those who die young and do not have an opportunity to "succeed"?

I would describe success as remaining alive, living and thriving. This depend on ever learning from God, for all life comes from Him.

Eternal conscious torment is a horrible doctrine in my opinion, and not consistent with a loving God. As others have pointed out, the Bible has statements that are ambivalent. Different people people come to different conclusions. But I personally do not see how eternal conscious torment can be compatible with the God I see described in the Bible.

Regarding those who die young, I don’t think anyone has a definitive answer. It would certainly be as easy for God to resurrect infants as well as it is to resurrect adults when Christ returns to this earth. Jesus clearly demonstrated that he has the power over life and death and I trust He will do the right thing.

Best wishes
Kevin

 

[eleos1954]

So what you are saying is our will is stronger than Gods will? I don’t give man that much credit I believe Gods will is stronger than any man and God has all of eternity to get his will done.

No ... what I'm saying is God created mankind with free agency ... It's about Love, you can't have true love unless one has the choice to love or not to love .... love can not be forced ... it demands choice. His will is that we CHOOSE Him ... but He will not or does not force that choice.

What you are saying evidentially is that we are a bunch of robots and no God didn't predetermine our choices ... He knows what our choices will be but does not determine our choices.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

No ... what I'm saying is God created mankind with free agency ... It's about Love, you can't have true love unless one has the choice to love or not to love .... love can not be forced ... it demands choice. His will is that we CHOOSE Him ... but He will not or does not force that choice.

What you are saying evidentially is that we are a bunch of robots and no God didn't predetermine our choices ... He knows what our choices will be but does not determine our choices.

Yes we have free will to chose and God does not violate that. This is a good word picture of how God works. If I were to play a game or thousands of games of chess against the grand master of chess, I will have total free will of how I move my pieces but he will win every time. Why because he can force me to do what he wants done even though I have 100% free will choice I won’t win . God is like this he created us to follow and love him out of free will and God knows how to make it so all humans will as scripture says “ Every knee will bow and every tongue will gladly, joyfully accept him as Lord “ Jesus leaves the 99 till the lost sheep is found, Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for no man can change that. This is what Paul called the mystery of Christ he has redeemed all of his creation, a few see it now (the church) most don’t see it till the lake of fire , but all will see and Gods will is that none parish and he will get what he desires.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Again, universal reconciliation as promoted by the previous poster is a false teaching entirely.

It is forbidden on many forum threads.

So what you’re telling me is that you know Greek better than the early church fathers who were native Greek speakers from birth. One of the main founders of the Nicene creed taught Christian Universal Redemption and so did many early church fathers . You do not have history on your side. I understand how hard it is to go against tradition, I had a hard time with this also but I studied what the early church taught and have come to believe that it’s true.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Thus you reveal and confirm the already suspected the source of your unbelief and serious false teaching and errors.
If you repent God may allow you to learn the truth.
Get back to Scripture, and remember God says in His Word that He curses those who put their trust in man.

So you believe that those in the early church, some were the original disciples of the first disciples were wrong when they wrote about Jesus being the savior of the world not a potential savior? Or do you believe that Jesus failed when he said “ I did not come to judge the world but to save it”. I believe Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

The rebellion and apostasy of whoever you have trusted does not bode well for you nor for them.
Whoever brings a false gospel (including universal r) is to be put out.
Jesus is totally clear on this.
Others who claim to be .... officials accepted by Jesus , often fail to be honest or clear - the veil has not been removed and they cannot lead the blind anywhere good, they both fall in the pit.
As written:
Galatians 1:8-9, the Apostle Paul warns against preaching a different gospel, stating:

“But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!”

When I read scripture the Gospel is that Jesus is the savior of the world, God says his will ( and he only has one not two) is that none parish. That is the gospel. Rom 11:32For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all , that is the gospel. So I would say that maybe you are believing in another gospel not me.

 

[tdidymas]

I appreciate the continued discussion on this post. It is helpful to see the different approaches people of different Christian backgrounds take to these questions.


How do you envisage basing our definitions on the definition in Scripture? How would we define love for example based solely on Scripture?

By observing the context in which the word 'love' is used. The God-kind of love, 'agape' in Greek, means to do good to others regardless of what they do, so in some sense it is unconditional. It has nothing to do with feelings, but rather any feelings, emotion, or idea that opposes it has to be overcome in oneself, in order to obey the command (for example, to love one's enemy). If we see the context in which this command to love others is used, can we not see how Jesus and the apostles are using it? One clear description of it is found in 1 Cor. 13. It's not exhaustive, but it includes "is" something, "is not" something, "does" something, and "does not" something else.

How do you define "success"? How do you understand eternal conscious torment - if it is forever, how does it teach people to succeed? What happens for those who die young and do not have an opportunity to "succeed"?

The Bible only makes general statements of fact on these matters, and does not give us answers for every possible application. It tells us that if we trust in God and do what He says, we will prosper (concerning success). Concerning eternal judgment, we only have statements like, "where the worm does not die," "outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth," "the smoke of their torment will go up forever," and such as that. We just know for sure that God considers sin a grave matter, so that the death of Jesus to heal us from it is a "great salvation."

 

[Jeff Saunders]

He has mercy on whom He chooses, and He hardens the heart of whom He chooses.
Some are resurrected to LIFE with Jesus,
Some are resurrected to JUDGMENT/ condemnation, AS WRITTEN .....
He is One Perfect Creator, and has stated He is a consuming fire (not a refining fire for the condemned).
Everyone was commetted to disobedience,
everyone was /is/ given a chance to receive mercy. If they refuse, they perish.

Why do you feel the need to add to scripture? No place in Rom 11:32 does it add “ everyone was/is/ given a chance to receive mercy “ it says plainly that “ he might have mercy on them all “ Jeremiah 9:7 “ Therefore the Lord who rules over all says, I will purify them in the fires of affliction and test them, The wickedness of my dear people has left me no choice what else can I do.” Or this one Isa 48:10 Refined, purified in the furnace of misery. Or Amal 3:2 “But who can endure the day of his coming and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiners fire and like fullers soap” does that mean that they will have an eternal bath? There are more that talk about the refining fires of God it’s not hard to find.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Stay as you are, don't change, as you wish.
God Willing, learn by His Will to seek truth, cast out demons, heal the sick, and stop trusting errors in darkness.

I gave you scripture that says God is like a refiners fire nad fullers soap and other verses can you please tell me what you think they mean? Will you deal with scripture or are you not sure what is meant and that is why you won’t deal with scripture. Throw scripture at me I don’t mind discussing why I believe as I do . Can you do the same?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Stay as you are, don't change, as you wish.
God Willing, learn by His Will to seek truth, cast out demons, heal the sick, and stop trusting errors in darkness.

Look I know how hard it is to break with tradition but if you are going to engage with someone about scripture why not use scripture to back your argument? I know what most people in the western tradition of Christianity believe, I was raised in it, went to Bible college and have been in Christian ministry for most of my adult life and I have been studying scripture for over 50 years, I know the arguments that you give I used to give them also. But I heard someone speak about Christian Universal Redemption and set out to prove them wrong, but the more I read and studied the more and more I saw that this is true and many in the early church taught this for the first about 300 years of the church. Gregory of Nyssa one of the Authors of the Nicene creed taught this and he was considered the father of the fathers , so be careful what you condemn until you do your research and study.

 

[eleos1954]

Yes we have free will to chose and God does not violate that. This is a good word picture of how God works. If I were to play a game or thousands of games of chess against the grand master of chess, I will have total free will of how I move my pieces but he will win every time. Why because he can force me to do what he wants done even though I have 100% free will choice I won’t win . God is like this he created us to follow and love him out of free will and God knows how to make it so all humans will as scripture says “ Every knee will bow and every tongue will gladly, joyfully accept him as Lord “ Jesus leaves the 99 till the lost sheep is found, Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for no man can change that. This is what Paul called the mystery of Christ he has redeemed all of his creation, a few see it now (the church) most don’t see it till the lake of fire , but all will see and Gods will is that none parish and he will get what he desires.

Why because he can force me to do what he wants done even though I have 100% free will choice I won’t win .

No God don't force anyone ... if that's the case then nobody has free will.

Not everyone will receive eternal life and the Bible is very clear about that.

God never violates our free will ever.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

No God don't force anyone ... if that's the case then nobody has free will.

Not everyone will receive eternal life and the Bible is very clear about that.

God never violates our free will ever.

Did you not understand the word picture? Did I say anyone didn’t have free will? Why is it so hard to understand that God is our creator and he created us to only be truly human when we are in fellowship with him that’s what we were created for . So if God is infinite and all powerful and all knowing why could he not create creatures that would eventually find him and see him as he is and all will fall down and worship without force that’s what we were made to do. Unless you don’t believe that God knew what he was doing or started something he was not powerful enough to complete. I will give another word picture let’s see if you understand this one / there are two doors behind one is a lion that will tear apart anything that opens the door , behind the other is a beautiful maiden that will be your soul mate . Each door is identical and sound proof so there is no way to guess what’s behind each door. There are two men who are given the free will choice to pick either door totally free will pick. One has no idea which door to pick the other has found out that the door on his left is the lion , they both can choose either door but who has the freest will? I would say the one who knows what door to pick. We have free will but we can only exercise it if we understand what we have free will to choose. Most people don’t have true free will because they don’t even understand the choices. Or another word picture God made a fish and he gives that fish free will to choose any environment to live in and it will choose water every time because it was created for water just like we are created to worship and be in a loving relationship with God. As far as scripture being clear on not everyone having life that never ends have you read these verses and take them at face value? 1Tim 2:3-6 / John 4:42 / Rom 11:32 / 1Cor 15:21-28 / 2Cor 5:19 / 2Cor 5:14 / John 11:47 / Rom 5:18 / 1John 2:2 / 1Tim 4:9-11 / PhiL 2:10-11 /Acts 3:21-25 / Col 1:19-22 / John 12:32 / 2 Pet 3:9 there are others but try reading them as written with out adding to or making things up like two wills of God as if he is conflicted with himself.