Questions of conversion from Catholic to Orthodox

[Rising_Suns]

Orthodox dogma does not attempt to explain how the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ;

Neither does Catholic doctrine.



...as DJ H said, it is merely terminology.

 

[Rising_Suns]

their really are virtual none between orthodox and catholics--

This may be true, but you will find that our Orthodox brethren here generally do not see it this way. They basically view the Catholic Church as heretical, and see us a heretics, so you will not see much open discussion about this here. They are right and we are wrong, and that's pretty much the end of the discussion. I have tried to find common ground, but in my feable attempts I get discouraged. There have been a couple times when I was felt genuinly pulled to the Orthodox Church, but something always happens that closes the door on on my curisousity.

 

[JasonS]

What I think is the biggest difference between Catholics and Orthodox today are philosophical differences. The Orthodox are geared more towards ascetism and mysticism while Catholics are geared more towards rationalism. Both appeal to different mindsets. Some people prefer a more mystical experience in their worship while others like a more rational approach to holy living. I think that's why Pope John Paul II correctly states that Catholics and Orthodox are like "two lungs" belonging to the same body.

On their own I doubt Catholics and Orthodox would be able to appeal to everyone everywhere. But united the Church would be an incredibly powerful force for good on the planet. Too bad that's not likely to happen any time soon but one day.....who knows. God works in mysterious ways.

That's my over simplified take on things.

 

[Rising_Suns]

What I think is the biggest difference between Catholics and Orthodox today are philosophical differences. The Orthodox are geared more towards ascetism and mysticism while Catholics are geared more towards rationalism. Both appeal to different mindsets. Some people prefer a more mystical experience in their worship while others like a more rational approach to holy living. I think that's why Pope John Paul II correctly states that Catholics and Orthodox are like "two lungs" belonging to the same body.

On their own I doubt Catholics and Orthodox would be able to appeal to everyone everywhere. But united the Church would be an incredibly powerful force for good on the planet. Too bad that's not likely to happen any time soon but one day.....who knows. God works in mysterious ways.

That's my over simplified take on things.

yes, that's a very interesting point you have, and I would tend to agree with you on that. Perhaps our strengths could be synergistic if we just work together on winning souls, but I doubt the Orthodox Church wants anything to do with the Catholic Church.

 

[MariaRegina]

yes, that's a very interesting point you have, and I would tend to agree with you on that. Perhaps our strengths could be synergistic if we just work together on winning souls, but I doubt the Orthodox Church wants anything to do with the Catholic Church.

Dear Davide:

Did you know that almost all Greek Orthodox Priests (and a lot of Antiochian also) will deliberately tell Catholics to return to the Catholic Church and not convert?

In Russia, there is a concerted effort by the Catholics (especially the SSPX) to convert the Orthodox to Catholicism.

Where is that wall banging smilie when I need him.

Yours in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[Rising_Suns]

Did you know that almost all Greek Orthodox Priests (and a lot of Antiochian also) will deliberately tell Catholics to return to the Catholic Church and not convert?

hi elizabeth,
May I ask why is this so? If the Orthodox believe that their is the one true Church, and that the differences between RRC and EO are great, why would they not want Catholic converts?

In Russia, there is a concerted effort by the Catholics (especially the SSPX) to convert the Orthodox to Catholicism.

Yes, I've seen where this conversion has gone in other threads, and I do not want to participate in it here. Lets just concede that both our Church's have sought to evangelize each other (the RCC doesn't view the EO Church as heretics though, but they view us that way)

also, I don't believe the SSPX is in union with Rome.

 

[MariaRegina]

hi elizabeth,
May I ask why is this so? If the Orthodox believe that their is the one true Church, and that the differences between RRC and EO are great, why would they not want Catholic converts?


Yes, I've seen where this conversion has gone in other threads, and I do not want to participate in it here. Lets just concede that both our Church's have sought to evangelize each other

also, I don't believe the SSPX is in union with Rome.

Dear Davide:

I don't know if you have notice this, but when several Catholics were considering becoming Orthodox I dissuaded them and encouraged them to go Byzantine Catholic.

One reason is that Catholics have this strong attachment to the Pope of Rome. I've known many Catholics who have tried to convert to Orthodoxy -- and in the process they end up converting Orthodox to Catholicism before they ultimately returned to the Catholic church because they feel guilty about denying the Pope. It's just a pope thing I guess.

I was allowed to convert to Orthodox because I could no longer accept Papal Supremacy and Infallibility. That was one of the deciding factors. The second (and more important) fact was that I was willing to fast and repent.

Therefore, it seems that an Orthodox is more likely to go Catholic than the other way around. The life is not as hard for Catholics - you guys only fast on 2 days of the year. If you don't earn an A and miss heaven, you believe that you can always make purgatory with a B, C, or D. (I'm being silly here to make a point). We Orthodox don't believe in Purgatory, so we have to try to be the best we can on earth and faithfully follow Christ. Time on earth is for repentance.

BTW, try telling the Russian ORthodox that the SSPX isn't in union with Rome. The SSPX believes that it is and the outcome is the same. It causes hard feelings.

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth

 

[Lotar]

Neither does Catholic doctrine.



...as DJ H said, it is merely terminology.

Chapter IV of Session 13 of the Council of Trent, makes Transubstantiation dogma.

 

[JasonS]

hi elizabeth,
May I ask why is this so? If the Orthodox believe that their is the one true Church, and that the differences between RRC and EO are great, why would they not want Catholic converts?

Yes, I've seen where this conversion has gone in other threads, and I do not want to participate in it here. Lets just concede that both our Church's have sought to evangelize each other (the RCC doesn't view the EO Church as heretics though, but they view us that way)

also, I don't believe the SSPX is in union with Rome.

I think its because the Greek state has a law against prosyletism which applies to everyone. Outside Greece however, its a different story. There are loose canons on both sides. For example the Orthodox set up a bishop in Vienna which has been Catholic for a thousands years. According to one priest, the number of orthodox in vienna you could fit in a phone booth. Or the Greek Church in Sicily sending out pamphlets urging people to return to their byzantine heritage. Like I said, loose canons on both sides.

 

[MariaRegina]

I think its because the Greek state has a law against prosyletism which applies to everyone. Outside Greece however, its a different story. There are loose canons on both sides. For example the Orthodox set up a bishop in Vienna which has been Catholic for a thousands years. According to one priest, the number of orthodox in vienna you could fit in a phone booth. Or the Greek Church in Sicily sending out pamphlets urging people to return to their byzantine heritage. Like I said, loose canons on both sides.

What is wrong with a Greek Church asking their former parishioners to return home? There are a lot of Italian-Greeks who converted to Catholicism over the centuries.

 

[JasonS]

Chapter IV of Session 13 of the Council of Trent, makes Transubstantiation dogma.

It's not as simple as that. This is from the newadvent website:

The Council of Trent (Sess. XIII, cap. iv; can. ii) not only accepted as an inheritance of faith the truth contained in the idea, but authoritatively confirmed the "aptitude of the term" to express most strikingly the legitimately developed doctrinal concept.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm#3

So they merely stated that Transubstantiation was an acceptable term to describe the mystery of the eucharist. Mostly in response to protestant attacks on it. Again, this has to do with the western mindset's need to rationalize and explain everything. The East remain prefer to say its a mystery thats beyond trying to explain so there's no use in trying. But both believe in the real presence.

Interestingly the catechism of the Catholic Church presents it back in its more mystical form:

1357 We carry out this command of the Lord by celebrating the memorial of his sacrifice. In so doing, we offer to the Father what he has himself given us: the gifts of his creation, bread and wine which, by the power of the Holy Spirit and by the words of Christ, have become the body and blood of Christ. Christ is thus really and mysteriously made present.

1358 We must therefore consider the Eucharist as:

- thanksgiving and praise to the Father;
- the sacrificial memorial of Christ and his Body;
- the presence of Christ by the power of his word and of his Spirit.

 

[JasonS]

What is wrong with a Greek Church asking their former parishioners to return home? There are a lot of Italian-Greeks who converted to Catholicism over the centuries.

Well Catholics could say the same thing about Orthodox Christians in Greece. Alot of Latins were forced to convert there too. Or anywhere else for that matter.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Chapter IV of Session 13 of the Council of Trent, makes Transubstantiation dogma.

yes but "transubstantiation" is merely a term to describe the same mystery that the Orthodox Church believes. The difference is only that we use that term than they don't. terminology.

If you don't earn an A and miss heaven, you believe that you can always make purgatory with a B, C, or D. (I'm being silly here to make a point). We Orthodox don't believe in Purgatory, so we have to try to be the best we can on earth and faithfully follow Christ. Time on earth is for repentance.

How would this not apply to the Orthodox Church? You don't use the term "purgatory", but you can believe in a state of purification after death. it's the same thing. Again, terminology.

I would also be carefull in saying that our Church makes it easier to get to heaven; that is almost putting us in the same boat with Prtoestants. I would like to remind you that as JasonS has pointed out, the Catholic Church takes a very thourough and rationale approach in its teachings to make sure it covers all the possible angles and issues within modern society (contraception for instance); there is much that we are required to adhere to, especially for those living within society.

 

[MariaRegina]

Well Catholics could say the same thing about Orthodox Christians in Greece. Alot of Latins were forced to convert there too. Or anywhere else for that matter.

A few centuries ago a whole monastery of Dominican monks converted willingly to Orthodoxy in Greece. It was their choice.

A whole convent of nuns in Rome recently went Orthodox and again it was their choice. Archbishop Sypridon received them. They saw the faith pure and simple being lived in Orthodoxy. The Divine Liturgy is so majestic. This is what drew me to Orthodox too.

 

[MariaRegina]

yes but "transubstantiation" is merely a term to describe the same mystery that the Orthodox Church believes. The difference is only that we use that term than they don't.

How would this not apply to the Orthodox Church? You don't use the term "purgatory", but you can believe in a state of purification after death. it's the same thing.

I would also be carefull in saying that our Church makes it easier to get to heaven; that is almost putting us in the same boat with Protestants. I would like to remind you that as JasonS has pointed out, the Catholic takes a very thourough and rationale approach in its teachings to make sure it covers all the possible angles and issues within modern society (contraception for instance); there is much that we are required to adhere to, especially for those living within society.

The Orthodox believe that the afterlife remains a mystery. However the blessed do go from glory to glory. How can one not become more in love with Christ beholding Him face to face.

 

[MariaRegina]

To all:

I was only allowed to convert to Orthodoxy because I repented. That is the key.

Furthermore, I pray daily for all that they may be saved.

 

[Lotar]

It's not as simple as that. This is from the newadvent website:

The Council of Trent (Sess. XIII, cap. iv; can. ii) not only accepted as an inheritance of faith the truth contained in the idea, but authoritatively confirmed the "aptitude of the term" to express most strikingly the legitimately developed doctrinal concept.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm#3

So they merely stated that Transubstantiation was an acceptable term to describe the mystery of the eucharist. Mostly in response to protestant attacks on it. Again, this has to do with the western mindset's need to rationalize and explain everything. The East remain prefer to say its a mystery thats beyond trying to explain so there's no use in trying. But both believe in the real presence.

Interestingly the catechism of the Catholic Church presents it back in its more mystical form:

1357 We carry out this command of the Lord by celebrating the memorial of his sacrifice. In so doing, we offer to the Father what he has himself given us: the gifts of his creation, bread and wine which, by the power of the Holy Spirit and by the words of Christ, have become the body and blood of Christ. Christ is thus really and mysteriously made present.

1358 We must therefore consider the Eucharist as:

- thanksgiving and praise to the Father;
- the sacrificial memorial of Christ and his Body;
- the presence of Christ by the power of his word and of his Spirit.

No, they clearly defined the process of transubstantiation, right down to using the metaphysical language. For example, "...and this sacred synod now declares this anew-that through the consecration of the bread and wine a conversion is made of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ..." etc.

I know the willingness here to brush over differences, but the council affirmed Aquinas' view of transubstantiation, and doesn't say it is just an acceptable term, but that "This conversion has been fitly and properly called transubstantiation by the holy Catholic Church," etc.

But, it is worth noting that it seems that the Orthodox disagree with the dogma, not the definition itself.

 

[Matrona]

Yes, I've seen where this conversion has gone in other threads, and I do not want to participate in it here. Lets just concede that both our Church's have sought to evangelize each other (the RCC doesn't view the EO Church as heretics though, but they view us that way)

If the Eastern Orthodox Church is not heretical, according to the RCC...

...then why is the RCC evangelizing members of the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Is the RCC is doing it because it secretly believes that the Orthodox are heretics? I can understand that--but what I can't understand about that case is why the RCC wouldn't just out and out call us heretics.

Why does the RCC push us away with one arm... and drag us closer with the other?

 

[Rising_Suns]

It's so sad that you have to bring in ad hominum arguments -- the same one that geocajun and nyj have used. Now where is that head banging smilie

elizabeth,
I am not seeking arguments with you or anyone else here, and I would hope that you can show me the respect I have shown you all these years. I simply get discouraged when I seek unity but find closed doors in front of me. I am glad that you have repented and have found your home in the Orthodox Church, and I accept you as my sister in Christ. The Orthodox Church is a good Church and I have found there to be many devote Christians within it just I have found many devote Christians within the Catholic Church. I guess it's just so discouraging to see these walls between us and memebers from both sides of the fence have difficulty in finding that common ground to work together for the greater good which is strenthening the body of Christ.

 

[Suzannah]

[mod hat on]


Our Father,
Who art in Heaven,
hallowed be thy name,
thy Kingdom come!
Thy will be done,
on Earth as it heaven,
And give us our daily bread,
And forgive us our Debts
as we forgive our Debtors,
And lead us not into
Temptation,
but deliver us from the Evil One!

For thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory,
both now and ever unto the ages of ages!
Amen.

[/mod hat off]