JW Questions I have for a Jehovah's Witness about Prophecy and the WTS materials.

[The7thColporteur]

... None of those verses say that the Jew observed the sabbath prior to the wilderness (not directly),...

I quoted Exodus 5, also:

Exodus 5:1 KJB - And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.

Exodus 5:2 KJB - And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.

Exodus 5:3 KJB - And they said, The God of the Hebrews hath met with us: let us go, we pray thee, three days' journey into the desert, and sacrifice unto the LORD our God; lest he fall upon us with pestilence, or with the sword.

Exodus 5:4 KJB - And the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens.

[The KJB word "let", means to hinder, to cause something to cease, release from, etc., and Moses did not command the people on his own authority, but by God's authority, to see would people obey God's command, or man's command.]
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Exodus 5:5 KJB - And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest from their burdens.

[The word "rest"; H7673 in Exodus 5:5, is "והשׁבתם", "w'hish'BaTem", is the very same word used in Genesis 2:2, "rest", "וישׁבת", "waYish'Bot" and Genesis 2:3, "rest", "שׁבת", "shävat", and is directly tied to the 7th day, as seen in Genesis 1:1-3, and again the "the same day", in Exodus 5:6 KJB God had spoken to Moses, and Moses was to be a Sabbath reformer to those who had forgotten God's law in their bondage. Thus is why God says, Exodus 16:28 KJB - And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?]
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Exodus 5:6 KJB - And Pharaoh commanded the same day the taskmasters of the people, and their officers, saying,

Exodus 5:7 KJB - Ye shall no more give the people straw to make brick, as heretofore: let them go and gather straw for themselves.

Exodus 5:8 KJB - And the tale of the bricks, which they did make heretofore, ye shall lay upon them; ye shall not diminish ought thereof: for they be idle; therefore they cry, saying, Let us go and sacrifice to our God.

Exodus 5:9 KJB - Let there more work be laid upon the men, that they may labour therein; and let them not regard vain words.

[Pharaoh, just called God's commandments, and the commandment to "rest", "vain words". What do you call them? God said, "sabbath", and Pharaoh, as the devil, says, 'Get back to work, no rest, no sabbath. No rest in God's rest in creation and redemption, more 'works'!']
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Exodus 5:10 KJB - And the taskmasters of the people went out, and their officers, and they spake to the people, saying, Thus saith Pharaoh, I will not give you straw.

Exodus 5:11 KJB - Go ye, get you straw where ye can find it: yet not ought of your work shall be diminished.
​

Moses wasn't a Jew, neither Aaron, nor Miriam, nor Zipporah, nor the 'mixed multitude', etc.

God, in Exodus is directly called the "God of the Hebrews" [Exodus 5:3 KJB].

Moses was Hebrew [Exodus 2:7,11 KJB], so also the midwives [Exodus 1:15 KJB], as well as others [Exodus 1:16,19; Deuteornomy 15:12 KJB].

Abraham was also Hebrew [Genesis 14:13 KJB], as was Joseph [Genesis 39:14 KJB]. The word Hebrew, comes from "Eber" [Genesis 10:21,24,25, 11:14-17; Numbers 24:24; 1 Chronicles 1:18-19,25 KJB], who is of the line of "Shem" [Genesis 10:21 KJB], of "Noah", etc., etc. unto "Adam".

But ye are not Abraham's seed, as Jesus saith:

John 8:39 KJB - They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
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You would keep all of God's commandments [John 14:15; Exodus 20:6; Exodus 20:8-11; Revelation 12:17, 14:12, 22:14 KJB], but since you do not, you do show whose child you are [Ephesians 2:2, 5:6; Colossians 3:6 KJB].

Galatians 3:29 KJB - And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.​

There is not a single scripture that says "Jewish sabbath", or "sabbath of the Jews". It is a myth.

It is always, the Holy "seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God". And moreso, since Jesus is God, and so also man [the second/last Adam], even the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, it is the Sabbath of Jesus, the Jew, for the "son of man [Jesus] is LORD also of the Sabbath" [Mark 2:28 KJB], thus all who are His children [Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; Hebrews 2:9-13; Isaiah 8:8-20; Isaiah 56:1,8; John 10:16; Isaiah 56:2-7 KJB], and of the New Creation, will keep His Sabbath even in eternity, even in the New Heavens and New Earth:

Isaiah 66:23 KJB - And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.​

One of us is presently deceived, but it is not I. I have scripture [KJB], you have not so very good excuses before God, for if you cannot even answer me, how will you stand before God, even Jesus Christ?

Romans 14:10 KJB - But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:10 KJB - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
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What's more important to you, your WTS, your wife, or Truth, even Jesus Christ? Choose. Choose wisely. Choose eternally. I have set before you Eternal Life and Eternal Death, for the wages of sin [1 John 3:4 KJB] is the second death [Romans 6:23 KJB]

 

[Duvduv]

Isn't the Book of Revelation the source material for the failed apocalyptic prophecies and predictions of the Latter Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses and assorted Adventist sects?? And how do the adherents of these groups grapple with all these failed predictions since the mid-1840s? I have seen videos and it surprised me that anyone would continued affiliating with the Watch Tower Society of JW or the First Presidency of the LDS-Utah given the poor records of Russell, Rutherford, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and their successors. Do adherents have comments about all this?

 

[The7thColporteur]

Isn't the Book of Revelation the source material for the failed apocalyptic prophecies and predictions of the Latter Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses and assorted Adventist sects?? ...

Hello Duvduv. This thread is more specifically for questions that I have for WTS/Jehovah's Witnesses, but I will answer your question. Would you like me to begin a new thread for us to consider these things together more?

The book of Revelation is the culmination of all books of scripture, OT & NT.

It is not the only book in regards prophecy that is utilized by the Seventh-day Adventist movement. We utilize every book beginning from Genesis [which has the entire history of the world in just Chapters 1 & 2].

The books of Daniel and Revelation are most intimately related, though as stated Revelation contains material from every book of scripture in one way or another.

I could show you things from prophecy in Ezekiel, Matthew, Jeremiah, Mark, Leviticus, Hebrews, Genesis, Luke, Joshua, John, etc, etc.

Not only prophecy, but also typology, and sanctuary, etc.

... And how do the adherents of these groups grapple with all these failed predictions since the mid-1840s? ...

[In very brief] The WTS/JW sprung from the bible students of which Charles Taze Russell led out with, which sprung from the wider advent movement, which sprung from the earlier 'Millerite' movement. They generally relegated the understanding of those past persons to the trash heap, and recalculated dates based upon various time prophecies within Daniel, and also have some made up ones, such as the 2520, which doesn't actually exist in Daniel 4. And have continued to set new times since the original failure.

The LDS and branches thereof, were a movement started by Joseph Smith, and others, based in the Jesuit front of free-masonry. Joseph Smith was a Mason of the Nauvoo lodge. He attempted to form his own state, print his own currency, etc. His method of interpretation came about by other means, not to be detailed here, and didn't really have much to do with millerite/adventist movement then going on, though such momentum was utilized by Smith. Smith died by gunfire. The LDS have various ways that they attempt to reconcile Smiths practices and beliefs with scripture. Again, not to be detailed here.

The Seventh-day Adventist embrace the past history [as we are historicist], as it was all foretold in Daniel and Revelation, and in typology, that there would be a Great Disappointment, and a failure of understanding, a falling away of those that were insincere, or moved from abject fear, though the time element of the prophecies was exactly correct [though there were a few minor corrections that needed to be adjusted in the early millerite/advent movement]. Through further prayer and study, the mistakes in understanding of the event prophesied to take place at the time were found and realized.

...I have seen videos and it surprised me that anyone would continued affiliating with the Watch Tower Society of JW or the First Presidency of the LDS-Utah given the poor records of Russell, Rutherford, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and their successors.

I would agree with you in general, about the system of the WTS or system of the LDS, and even specific persons such as C.T. Russell and J. Smith, and a few others based upon their practices and lives, not to mention specific things theologically speaking.

However, if you consider the lives of such persons as William Miller, James Springer White and Ellen G. White and Joseph Bates among others, you will see the contrast in their lives compared to those of the others. Then if you have questions about theology we can look together in another thread. Just let me know how you would like the thread to be set up, and we can begin there.

... Do adherents have comments about all this?

I would rather not get into the details of the other belief systems too much with one not of those systems, but if you would like to speak about the millerite/advent movement or the Seventh-day Adventist movement specifically, I would be glad to discuss that with you, along with prophecy and the fulfillment thereof from the OT, NT, in another thread.

Here is a helpful resource tool for you to consider also - www.PEARLTREES.com/AWHN

 

[Duvduv]

Thank you. If you think it should go into a different thread, that is fine too. I was curious because of all the failed prophecies from all sorts of "Adventist/restorationist" groups over the past 200 years. If such prophecies emerge from respected founders of the movement, how do adherents continue belonging to the group?!