• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured JW Questions I have for a Jehovah's Witness about Prophecy and the WTS materials.

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by The7thColporteur, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +237
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    Questions I have for a Jehovah's Witness about Prophecy and the WTS materials.

    This thread was began in the hopes of receiving some answers from a Jehovah's Witness about the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, as well as specific materials published by the WTS, at JW [dot org] beginning with, and not limited to, The NWT, New World Translation, the KIT, Kingdom Interlinear Translation, "What does the Bible really teach?", "Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy" and "Jesus—The Way, the Truth, the Life".

    I am looking for officially cited [linked where possible] sources with quotation in response.

    I have asked Ratiocination to participate. Other, Jehovah's Witnesses may also participate if they so desire, but I will generally not be engaging with those which are non-Jehovah's Witnesses, as it is not my present concern, but there are always exceptions to be made.

    Here is my first question: [which may be longer or shorter, simple or more detailed as continued in further questions]

    In the WTS book, "Jesus—The Way, the Truth, the Life" [1], Chapter 1, it says:

    “... It is about the year 3 B.C.E. ...”'
    First, I disagree with the year "3" [prophetically [KJB] speaking, as per Daniel 8:13,14,26, 9:24-27; Ezra 6:14, 7:8-28; Luke 3:1 KJB, etc] in this statement, but is not my present concern at the moment.

    My question at the moment, concerns the suffix used by the WTS material, "B.C.E."


    Why does the WTS book use this modern humanistic [secular] [Before Common Era] suffix, instead of the well known and used suffix, B.C. [Before Christ] and A.D. [Anno Domini, Year of our LORD], which gives glory to God?, and what is/are the reason/s officially given for this change [remember to please cite sources where possible, thank you]. As a for instance, in Babylon, the 4 Hebrews, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah, had names, desginations which glorified the God [JEHOVAH Elohiym] of Heaven, but when taken captive, they had their names outwardly changed to Belteshazzar, Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, glorifying another.

    Sub-question, Are Jehovah's Witnesses bound to use BCE and CE only, or are members free to make their own choice and use what designation they will?
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    961
    +24
    Jehovahs Witness
    Private
    Hey The7thColporteur,

    Thanks for the invite... There's a few reasons why we do this, and no, we are free to speak how we wish in this regard. I would personally use the suffix C.E and B.C.E personally because it means what it says, whereas B.C. means before Christ. I'll explain just one...

    The messiah or Christ, didn't appear officially until his baptism in the Jordan by John in 29C.E, therefore to say 5 B.C. is not 5 years before Christ, it's more like 34 years before Christ.

    I'm sure you may disagree on the dates above, but if what I'm saying is correct (or even almost correct) then it would bring a certain amount of dishonour to Christ to mis-speak about his arrival, in answer to your other point.

    The year 3 B.C.E. is an estimation based mainly on working back from the Messiah's arrival (at baptism) to when King Herod of Judea was reigning. The "arrival" of the Messiah is based on the Daniel 70 weeks prophecy (we may disagree on the start date, we say 455 B.C.E.?). I'm not sure how your cited texts relate to this, maybe you could elaborate?

    Regards
     
  3. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    961
    +24
    Jehovahs Witness
    Private
    I'm sorry, I wrote the above reply on my laptop, I need to be at my other computer to give references, I'll try and fill in as we go along..

    Not sure where you live but I'm on London time so I may be delayed if you reply this evening [today]...
     
  4. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +237
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    You're wlecome.

    Good to know that.

    I do disagree with the WTS dates, but again, that is another question down the road.

    I understand such reasoning [but the B.C./A.D. really was supposed to point to before, at and after the 'incarnation' of Jesus, though I know it is four years off, but they didn't know better], but what then does it mean "Before & Common Era"? What is the "common" about? Jesus Christ is resurrected from the dead and ascended and finishing the work of the great high priest in Heaven. and all the nations still had their various clocks/calendars, etc. My main concern was and still is of a turning away from the glorification of God [Before Christ, Anno Domini, Year of our LORD], to a secularized system [Before Common Era, and Common Era]. I am glad that Jehovah's Witnesses do have the choice. It was one of the things I wanted to be sure [please document when you can, and just update your original posts with those links].

    Quick side question that goes with this. Do you know when the WTS began using this system and disseminating it throughout, ie what was their first overall change to it [please document with the official source where able] and did they give the reason that you just gave? Please keep the answer to this separate from the other questions if you will please.

    I am not sure how the B.C./A.D. [even being off by four years] would bring "dishonour to Christ" in any way, rather than a secularized system, as atheists, and the like use.

    I understand the estimation, based in WTS chronology, but if you do not mind I will ask about this later, as to keep this separate from this question. Just as a statement, the Seventh-day Adventist understands the chronology of the beginning of the 70 Weeks [the first portion of the 2,300 of Daniel 8:13,14,26, etc] at 457 BC, 7th Year of Artaxerxes I Longimanus/Machrocheir tying into Daniel 9:25; Ezra 6:14, etc KJB. I do not intend to demosntrate this now, but will save it for a later question.

    Moving to next question. I will post each question separately to keep them from overlapping, and to avoid as much misunderstanding between us as possible.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  5. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +237
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    Question 002:

    On my whiteboard I have behind me, I have laid out the WTS chronology from their source materials that I have available to me, but I am missing some key placeholding information.

    According to WTS materials [will need citations for these please], when was the beginning of Creation of this world in Genesis 1:1 [a rough estimate would be fine if available, for instance the Bishop Ussher's Chronology gives a general idea for most people [about 4004 BC, so some 6,000 years ago], I am not looking to argue this point, just need to have it officially documented]?

    I had asked this to a younger Jehovah's Witness, and they had replied with:

    "... from Adam's creation until the great flood, there were 1,656 years ..." - [1]
    ... to which I followed up with the question that this statement engendered, namely:

    Is the WTS saying that the beginning of the Creation of Genesis 1:1 in the 1st day was merely 1,656 years before the flood, or is it merely saying that from the 6th Day, in which Adam was created, were 1,656 years? I ask for the clarification from an official source please, because I have heard that WTS theology/chronology teaches that each day in Genesis itself was not ever a 24 hour literal day with evening and morning but are instead a thousand years each [or longer], which would add volumes of time before the 6th day [and even mess up the 7th day that followed it], in which Adam was made, back unto the first day, roughly making the beginning of Creation some 12,000 years ago [or more] according to the WTS, rather than some 6,000 years ago as KJB chronology.

    It was at this point that the younger person never came back, and without explanation. [I am simply relating experience, and would still like an answer.]

    I would think, if this is true, that they do such a thing, that the WTS may be misapplying the 2 Peter 3:8; Psalms 90:4 KJB texts overwriting the literal/natural before the spiritual/prophetical, which would be in contradiction to the rule set down in 1 Corinthians 15:46 KJB. If such is the case, I would like to share with you about 2 Peter 3:8; Psalms 90:4 KJB in their proper uses.

    Thank you for your consideration and reply.
     
  6. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    961
    +24
    Jehovahs Witness
    Private
    Wait!
    Do I get a follow up to your follow up before we move onto the next question! You've stated some things which need to be addressed...
    1) Was Jesus born as the Christ?
    2) Does BC mean before Christ, or before Jesus? You seemed to have slipped in a different meaning.
    3) Is it truly your position that misleading the public as to the appearance of the Messiah by around 30 years (not 4 as you say), is in some way less of a lie than simply using a commonly understood dating system accepted the world over?

    And do you have the Watchtower CD ROM available? I can give you references to materials, but whether they are available online is not within my power, nor my concern. If you don't have the CD ROM then I think it's available online at a few anti-JW websites like avoidjw.org etc. Hope this helps.

    Regards
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
  7. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +237
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    I see, you did not answer my other questions [see OP specifics]. Disappointed already.

    I never agreed to any such thing. Here is the OP, where it is clearly stated:

    "... Questions I have for a Jehovah's Witness about Prophecy and the WTS materials.

    This thread was began in the hopes of receiving some answers from a Jehovah's Witness about the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, as well as specific materials published by the WTS, at JW [dot org] beginning with, and not limited to, The NWT, New World Translation, the KIT, Kingdom Interlinear Translation, "What does the Bible really teach?", "Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy" and "Jesus—The Way, the Truth, the Life".

    I am looking for officially cited [linked where possible] sources with quotation in response. ..."

    Pretty clear intention. If you are participating you agreed to abide by the OP, and since I made the OP, I know the intention thereof. This was not a debate thread at all. This was a thread specifically designed to get information from a Jehovah's Witness. Thus the format is I ask, the Jehovah's Witness answers. Whether I answer anything is my prerogative, and not part of the original OP operations.

    I asked further clarifying questions which you did not address:

    "... what then does it mean "Before & Common Era"? What is the "common" about? ..."

    "... Quick side question that goes with this. Do you know when the WTS began using this system and disseminating it throughout, ie what was their first overall change to it [please document with the official source where able] and did they give the reason that you just gave? Please keep the answer to this separate from the other questions if you will please. ..."

    Please re-read the OP. I get to ask the questions of Jehovah's Witnesses, it was never agreed that I answer questions in this thread. :)

    However, not to be uncharitable in this instance,

    Matthew 1:16 KJB - And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.​

    Matthew 1:18 KJB - Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

    Matthew 2:4 KJB - And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

    Luke 2:11 KJB - For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
    You see at Jesus' baptism [water and Holy Spirit], in AD 27, he obtained the title "Christ" in a new fashion, even as He is the "son of God", again, in a new fashion at the incarnation, and resurrection. Jesus has always been the Anointed of the Father from Eternity.

    Hebrews 1:9 KJB - Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    Psalms 45:7 KJB - Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    Psalms 2:2 KJB - The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

    The "thy fellows" of Hebrews 1:9 KJB, are firstly, the created angelic beings in Heaven [Hebrews 1:7 KJB], secondarily created mankind.​

    If you really understood Luke 2:11 KJB, you would recognize the Anointed JEHOVAH. [Remember I get to ask questions, since you are trying to prove to me that Jehovah's Wintesses are not afraid to answer questions as those in my past experience have. If you want to debate JEHOVAH Jesus you may attempt to help Heman, here, but I wouldn't advise it, its a "lost" cause [double entendre]] -

    Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god
    Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god
    Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god
    Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god
    Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god
    Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god
    Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god
    Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god
    Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god
    Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god
    Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god
    Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god
    Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god
    Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god
    Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god
    Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

    Therefore, again, the B.C./A.D. dating is based upon Jesus' birth, not His baptism in the Jordan. That the dates are off by four years is no real consequence, but what is important is whom all of time is calculated by [by those who love God and glorify God in all things], Jesus Christ the Lord. The secularize WTS is as the Babylonian names, which detract from the glory of Jesus, even God, and simply say before "common" [which means what exactly?] and "common" era's. By so saying, the WTS seem to imply that the before "common" was better than the "common" that followed it, which is a derogatory slap at Jesus.

    The WTS used to use "B.C./A.D.", for instance:

    "... In this chapter we present the Bible evidence which indicates that six thousand years from the creation of Adam were complete with A.D. 1872; and hence that, since 1872 A.D., we are chronologicaly entered upon the seventh thousand Millennium -- the forepart of which, the "Day of the Lord," the "day of trouble," is to witness the breaking into pieces of the kingdoms of this world and ..." - Millennial Dawn., Volume 2, "The Time is at Hand", page 33 [section: Study II, Bible Chronology]

    "... "battle of the great day of God Almighty" (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced. ..." - Millennial Dawn., Volume 2, page 101

    "... The beginning of the earthly phase of the Kingdom in the end of A.D. 1914 will, we understand, consist wholly of the resurrected holy ones of olden time, -- from John the Baptizer back to Abel;--"Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the holy prophets. ..." - Studies in the Scriptures, Volume 4, "The Day of Vengenace", page 625

    "... In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in AD 1914; and that that date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures, it will prove: --

    Firstly, That at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, ―"Thy Kingdom come," will have obtained full, universal control, and that it will then be ―et up," or firmly established, in the earth.

    Secondly, It will prove that he whose right it is thus to take the dominion will then he present as earth's new Ruler; and not only so, but it will also prove that he will be present for a considerable period before that date; because the overthrow of these Gentile governments is directly caused by his smashing them to pieces as a potter's vessel (Psalm 2:9; Revelat ion 2:27), and establishing in their stead his own righteous government.

    Thirdly, It will prove that some time before the end of AD 1914 the last member of the divinely recognized Church of Christ, the ―"royal priesthood," ―"the body of Christ," will be glorified with the Head; because every member is to reign with Christ, being a joint-heir with him of the Kingdom, and it cannot be fully "set up" without every member.

    Fourthly, It will prove that from that time forward Jerusalem shall no longer be trodden down of the Gentiles, but shall arise from the dust of divine disfavor, to honor; because the ―Times of the Gentiles" will be fulfilled or completed.

    Fifthly, It will prove that by that-date or sooner, Israel's blindness will begin to be turned away; because their ―"blindness in part" was to continue only ―"until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), or, in other words, until the full number from among the Gentiles, who are to be members of the body or bride of Christ, would be fully selected.

    Sixthly, It will prove that the great ―"time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation", will reach its culmination in a world-wide reign of anarchy. ..." - Millennial Dawn., Volume 2, "The Time is at Hand", page 76-78
    "In fact, in the book, "The Finished Mystery", (Volume 7), page 60, a list of dates from Adam to the Dominion being restored to Mankind in 2914 A.D. was said to be confirmed by the pyramid prophecies. These dates included 1874 for the Second Advent of the Lord, and 1878 for the Resurrection of the Saints: ..." - Our Friends the Jehovah's Witnesses, by E. B. Price, page 12 [reciting "The Finished Mystery"]:

    "... Date Foreshown---Event---Pastor Russel's Works---Sections of Pyramid Passages
    "... Fall---4127 B.C. ---Fall of Adam---Z 04-343---25-30-58
    "... [page break]
    "... Fall---1874 A.D. ---Second Advent of the Lord---B 173-247---16-32-50
    "... Spring---1878 A.D. ---Favor to Jews and sleeping saints ---C 233---17-28
    "... Fall---1914---A.D. ---End of Times of the Gentiles---B73---19-48
    "... Fall---2875 A.D. ---Restitution complete.---Z 04-344---37
    "... Fall---2914 A.D. ---Dominion restored to mankind---Z 04-343---58 ..." - "The Finished Mystery", (Volume 7), page 60
    Poor Jehovah's Witnesses were duped by Judge Rutherford and the Beth-Sarim, and the resurrection hype; utterly destroying the faith of "Millions", rather than a fulfillment of the promised [again and again] "Millions will never die". But beyond that, notice the continued use of the "A.D.", in WTS sources, which are supposed to be without error, as they teach that they are the "discreet slave" [they sure are "slaves" [no free will], where as Seventh-day Adventists are free servants of love].

    More significant than even the use of "B.C./A.D." is what was said then and buried/changed now.

    I could cite numerous more examples of the WTS itself using the dating system "B.C./A.D.", so to attempt to attack my [their] position on its use is fruitless, unless of course you want to now disagree with the WTS? [rhetorical]

    What is the "Before Common" and "Common" eras delineated by, in the WTS chronology? They cannot even say Jesus' birth, baptism or anything, except the same argument be used for the B.C./A.D. method, which negates your whole point of using "BCE/CE" in the first place, according to the reason you gave me for using them.

    The point. B.C. [Before Christ] and A.D. [Anno Domini, Year of our Lord] glorifies God, by designating time in relation to God manifest in the flesh. BCE and CE do not do this, and deprive glory from the very author of the world. However, I cannot stop anyone from using it, just question why they would say "Belteshazzar" rather than "Daniel".

    It means, in general use, before Jesus Christ's incarnation [we know it is off by four years, no big deal, humans err, and people generally know these things], as was stated to you, and even shown from your own WTS materials. Again, do you want to continue in this way and attack the WTS written uses?

    Not at all. See my previous scripture citations.

    The 4 years is the difference between actual birth and the calendation, not Jesus' baptism in the Jordan. You assumed the baptism in the Jordan part, not I, and then you ran with it. Jesus' was always the anointed from eternity.

    No, I do not, but it sure would be useful. Can I get one from a local Kingdom Hall if I ask them? If so, I may ask them to bring one on by as they brought my other requested materials.

    I am interested in all specific references, and as many as can be located online would be helpful, and if not found therein, the plain text references in lieu of the first will work just fine.

    avoidjw.org didn't actually have the zipfile, as the page was no longer available, and neither did the Wayback Machine, but I seemed to have located it elsewhere on Internet Archive [2015 ver.] Will have to see what's in it first, or if it even works.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
  8. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    961
    +24
    Jehovahs Witness
    Private
    Sorry buddy, if I don't get to ask questions too, then the deal if off. Unless of course you would like to pay me for my time? What else do I get out of this discussion but a load of wasted time otherwise?

    Maybe get down off your high horse and converse with me, I’m not that scary really, but I will question you throughout, and I’ll take your refusal to reply as evidence you have no rebuttal!

    As far as I’m aware it’s to do with an era of common men. I read somewhere once it was also called the “vulgar” age also. I do not know when the org started using this system. I think the system came about in the 1700's but can't be sure. I'm not defending a secular dating system because it might offend your emotions.

    Anyway, this is quite besides the point. JW’s didn’t invent this system, the same as we didn't invent the days of the week or the months. We don't use the BC/AD system because we end up in the same position as you currently and explaining away the bible for the sake of a moot point.

    This thread may become quite lonely real soon if you don’t want to converse with me. I really have no need to be here, and could just spend my time in the "God a god thread", that would be funny. All I was hoping for was an interchange of ideas.

    None of these verses say Jesus was born as the Annointed Christ! This is your mis-reading of the text (a common thing evidently judging by the "God or a god" thread with HeMan.

    At the time of writing he was obviously Christ. Therefore, if I ask when Queen Elizabeth II was born, I will get the answer 21st April 1926. But she wasn’t Queen at birth, right? Same thing in these verses above. Your trying desperately to strain a meaning out of the scriptures that simply isn’t there, all for the purpose of making a rather pointless point about JW’s using BCE/CE bringing some kind of dishonour to Christ!

    You really need to address the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel here. Particularly Daniel 9:25. As I'm sure you know this doesn't put the arrival of the Messiah (Christ/Anointed) at 4BCE but rather 29CE (or 27CE by your math). So don't try and overwhelm the readers of this thread by pasting in reams of unnecessary information, just stick to the Bible and explain why the Bible disagrees with you? Explain why 26CE is infact "before Christ" according to Daniel 9?

    What on earth are you talking about here? Show me some scriptural evidence that Jesus “obtained the title “Christ”” in a new fashion? You’re just making stuff up now.

    I’m sorry I just can’t take you seriously… Where is this little gem taught in scripture, specifically obtaining a new “Christ” designation at birth?

    So far we have...
    1) Jesus is the Messiah before coming to earth.

    2) Jesus is a new kind of Messiah after birth. Hence we must use BC/AD designations otherwise we are being disrespectful in some way. These designations are not found ANYWHERE in scripture, but are simply your own reasonings on the matter.

    3) Jesus is a different kind of Messiah yet again at his baptism. According to Daniel 9:25. This has to be true because, heavens forbid, it might mean that your insistence on BC/AD designations being used is unfounded. Conclusions first, many new meanings of Messiahs second, LOL.

    4) This is just a little side issue really, but I thought it was quite funny to point out to you… Jesus could have died age 1 day old and satisfied his role as a perfect lamb to save us from our sin (if he was already Messiah), fact. So really Herod could/should have succeeded in his attempt to kill Jesus because it would have saved a lot of papyrus writing the NT, persecution of Christians, this conversation, etc. First things first though, must maintain my conclusion first, run with conclusion throughout, and clear up the carnage of biblical proportions along the way!!!

    Can you explain the exact differences between all of these "Messiahs"? Think long and hard as to whether these explanations are really necessary, or just a result of your poor ideas in conflict with the scriptures?!

    B.C. is wrong, get over it, you admit it yourself.

    I've read your replies there and to be frank we have the same slip sliding going on there too, with misunderstood wording and phrases, and pre-conceived conclusions dominating thought. Once you had suggested this thread I thought this might be a trove of new information for me, but so far your attempting to avoid debate... Strange indeed!!!

    Wrong, we didn’t invent the system. This is a moot point.
    Your argument here seems to imply BC/AD is a scriptural designation, or at least a correct Hebrew thing! You imply that using BCE/CE is Babylonian (aka secular) and the Hebrew is better (aka Christian)! What is your evidence for this? Really the conclusion you should be reaching is that neither system should be used and we should simply count in the reigns of kings still. That is the biblical system as laid out in the scriptures, so which is it?

    More wasted time…

    Humans do indeed err, hence the reason for the switch to the BCE/CE method. The old system is simply wrong scripturally, which is the only kind of wrong we care about, not YOUR opinions. Sorry pal.

    And we do not say that the writings of the organization are infallible. In fact we often point out the opposite in our writings. The Finished Mystery was a good resource for it’s time but is obviously wrong in numerous places. It really is no use to point this out. It just goes to show the real intention of this thread, which is to point out the failings of other individuals in order to boost your superiority complex. I did say this would happen, and I've been proven right in about 3 posts!

    Still wrong! I read Daniel, then "ran with it". You're the one making up all these different Messiahs, and there's no need scripturally. Your point was moot at the beginning, and still is.

    Sounds good. They won't give you one at the KH because they are meant for baptised brothers and sisters. So you’ll have to find one online.

    Listen, I'm all good with posting references, but you need to reward my time with intellectual discourse in return. I do think this thread can be fruitful, but you have to understand that sometimes faith (as we define it, in terms of evidence) is often arrived at by studying your “opponents” positions as well. It’s called inference to the best explanation.

    I don’t think the BC/AD designations are the best ways to refer to the stream of time, because they require a lot of unnecessary explanations, like your now multiple definitions of the term “Christ/Messiah”. It’s this type of reasoning that rings the alarm bells for me, “we say this, but we mean this” kind of explanations are not very convincing to me, and may as well be done away with for a more robust explanation. Especially when you insist on these false reasonings as absolute truth.

    Regards
     
  9. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +237
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    Goodbye, you proved my point, re-read the OP. Jehovah's Witnesses always want to bend the rules to their favour, and when it can't be done they walk.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  10. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +237
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    Question 003:

    The WTS teach that Jesus died on a 'torture stake' [see "What Does the Bible Really Teach?", page 52 or [1]] rather than crucified on a "cross". On what textual, historical, prophetical, typological, medical grounds does the WTS substantiate its claims? [please be specific, cite official sources]

    Side Note:

    If any Jehovah's Witnesses, choose not to be associated with such T or t symbol as the Cross, then this is their choice, but they should know that by simply assaulting this symbol [the Cross], they have left untouched many others which exist in the Watch Tower and Tract Society materials [Divine Plan of the Ages, New Creation, etc] and buildings, like the Winged Sun-disk of Thebes, Pyramids, the W-Fingered Hand, Keys, etc.

    More than this, the very "torture stake" is also seen within paganism, and “phallic”, under the Pole, May-pole, the Stella, Needle, Pyramid, Spike, Yule-Log, Obelisk and so on. Perhaps they have a “beam” in their eye on this, while they are attempting to remove the cross splinter [those who wrongly wear such things] in others.

    Yet, none of that would matter so much to us, since even an idol is "nothing" as Paul says, but rather what ought to interest us, is what are the Doctrines that are taught, and are they in harmony with Scripture/Christ Jesus, and that is what is important to us.

    If we, who believe Jesus died upon the "cross" are called "fools" for so believing, then let us be "fools" after this manner alone:

    1 Corinthians 1:18 KJB - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:27 KJB - But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
    And prayerfully and hopefully, all may see the love of God that He has for you, and so also I, and desire you to have the Truth, even as it is written.

    If people say, "What does it matter?"

    Jesus said:

    John 17:17 KJB - Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    John 17:19 KJB - And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
    For Error cannot ever sanctify.

    Jesus Himself, also went about correcting error and misunderstanding, and I follow after Him.

    Matthew 22:29 KJB - Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

    Mark 12:24 KJB - And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

    Mark 12:27 KJB - "... ye therefore do greatly err."
    etc.

    Jesus is very concerned about right answers, in the right attitude, spirit:

    Luke 7:43 KJB - Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

    Luke 10:26-28 KJB - [26] He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? [27] And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. [28] And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

    Luke 20:21 KJB - And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person of any, but teachest the way of God truly:

    2 Timothy 2:15 KJB - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    Michael the archangel [X5] - Appendix 5 – The Cross throughout the Bible and in the Sanctuary - [Link] & [Link]

    Jesus said,

    John 5:39 KJB - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    Psalms 40:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

    Hebrews 10:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

    Luke 24:27 KJB - And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    John 1:45 KJB - Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

    Acts 28:23 KJB - And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

    Acts 3:18 KJB - But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.​

    The Tree of Life:

    The Scriptures declare that though there was the “tree of life” in the Garden of Eden on earth [Genesis 2:9, 3:22,24], but later also seen in Heaven [Ezekiel 47:12; Revelation 2:7, 22:2,14], we can know that though it is a real tree, it but points to the True Tree – Jesus Christ.

    Earth:

    Genesis 2:9 KJB - And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

    Genesis 3:22 KJB - And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    Genesis 3:24 KJB - So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.​

    Heaven, and after:

    Ezekiel 47:12 KJB And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

    Revelation 2:7 KJB - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    Revelation 22:2 KJB - In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    Revelation 22:14 KJB - Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.​

    The Seed is Christ:

    Galatians 3:16 KJB - Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.​

    Planted in the soil of the Heart, that it may grow up into a tree after its kind, bearing much fruit to all:

    Matthew 13:19 KJB - When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.​

    Where was the Tree of Life planted? In the Garden, even the Heart of man, which God created to be a Garden... where God was to walk, as the Garden outwardly, so the one inwardly [see also Song of Songs [Solomon, etc]] ...

    Genesis 2:10 KJB - And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

    John 4:14 KJB - But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.​

    [Just as there were 4 in Eden, the number 4 being of menaing 'universal', springing up from within, from Christ, going out unto all the earth from us... bringing life to others in His name.]

    Proverbs 11:25 KJB - The liberal soul shall be made fat: and he that watereth shall be watered also himself.

    Isaiah 58:11 KJB - And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.

    Jeremiah 31:12 KJB - Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.​

    When Man, whom was made of earth/dust, sinned, and tares had been sewn into the earthen heart by Satan and allowed to grow, that afterward outwardly that Tares, thorns and thistles grew.

    And as the sin of mankind increases, the whole creation groans and travails, and the other creatures become more diseased and sick? See Hosea 4 and Romans 8:22, etc.

    Do we not know that Adam/thus all Mankind in Him was created from the earth, made of the very dust, and placed in a created Garden, given unto Him and He told to “dress” and “keep” it? Mankind was given free will, and He must, by the power of God, Keep that which was entrusted to him by God. Keep out the Tares, that are sewn by Satan, and do not let the seeds of envy, jealousy, pride, etc., develop, but let them never take root! And should anything take root, only the fire of God's Holy Spirit can purge them to their very root...

    Genesis 2:15 KJB - And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.​

    We must of necessity only allow the True Seed, which is Christ to be planted into the Heart, and by watering, be watered, and allow it to Grow up into that Tree of Life in the Heart, planted by the rivers of water flowing from within, even as from the very Garden of Eden, which sprang upwards, flowing into 4 Heads, 4 being the universal direction, a living witness, and refreshing of Christ Jesus unto all peoples that we come into contact with:

    John 4:14 KJB - But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.​

    Yes, Christ Jesus in you, the Hope of Glory, even that we may grow up into Him, in all things, for the “seed” produces after His Kind:

    Ephesians 4:15 KJB - But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

    Genesis 1:11 KJB -And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

    Genesis 1:12 KJB - And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    Luke 11:2 KJB - And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.​

    O Man/Woman, know you not, that you are earthen vessels? A Physical Kingdom of Power and Glory to come, a Spiritual Kingdom of Grace already Here...

    The True Tree of Life, is Jesus Christ:

    John 1:4 KJB - In him was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4

    John 6:57 KJB - As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. [See Genesis 3:22, “... take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.”]

    John 14:6 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

    Romans 6:23 KJB - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    2 Timothy 1:1 KJB - Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

    Matthew 7:17 KJB - Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    Matthew 7:18 KJB - A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    Luke 6:43 KJB - For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    Luke 6:44 KJB - For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

    Luke 23:31 KJB - For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

    Acts 5:30 KJB - The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

    Acts 10:39 KJB - And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

    Acts 13:29 KJB - And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

    Galatians 3:13 KJB - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    1 Peter 2:24 KJB - Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.​

    upload_2018-4-9_1-13-0.png



    What is the Fruit of the Tree of Life?

    Song of Songs [Solomon] KJB - As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste.

    Genesis 1:11 KJB - And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.​

    [1] The Fruit of Righteousness:

    James 3:18 KJB - And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

    Hebrews 12:11 KJB - Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

    Amos 6:12 KJB - Shall horses run upon the rock? will one plow there with oxen? for ye have turned judgment into gall, and the fruit of righteousness into hemlock:

    Philippians 1:11 KJB - Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.​

    [2] The Fruit of Thanksgiving:

    Hebrews 13:15 KJB - By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.​

    [3] The Fruit of Holiness:

    Romans 6:22 KJB - But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.​

    [4-10] The Fruit of the Spirit which is Love [For God is love], which is Christ Jesus, the First Fruits - Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Gentleness, Goodness, Faith:

    Galatians 5:22 KJB - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

    Ephesians 5:9 KJB - (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

    1 Corinthians 15:23 KJB - But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

    [11] The Fruit of Wisdom, which is pure, peaceable, gentle, easy to be intreated, full of mercy, without partiality and hypocrisy:

    James 3:11 KJB - But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.​

    [12] The Fruits meet for Repentance:

    Matthew 3:8 KJB - Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:​

    What are the Leaves of the Tree of Life?

    Since Christ Jesus is the True Tree of Life, the Living Word, the words which He speaks, being the written Word, are then the "leaves" [Jeremiah 36:23], even those "leaves" of Healing Medicine, which bring all nations, which have been separated by lands, water, culture, wars, death, etc, then into one fold, one doctrine, one way of life, atonement with God and man:

    Psalms 1:3 KJB -And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

    Jeremiah 17:8 KJB - For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

    Ezekiel 47:12 KJB - And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

    Revelation 22:2 KJB - In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.​

    Let us notice that Acts 3:18, speaks that “all of his [God's] prophets” foretold that “Christ should suffer”. This means we ought to be able to go to the Old Testament to see if it speaks of this suffering, and manner by which Jesus would die. We shall then also consider the New Testament texts, which are built upon the foundation of the Old Testament texts.

    Deuteronomy 21:22 KJB - And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

    Deuteronomy 21:23 KJB - His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.​

    The Hebrew word for “tree” in Deuteronomy 21:22,23, is [Hebrew: H6086] “עֵץ” [transliterated] “ëtz, meaning:

    Total KJB Occurrences: 334:

    wood, 107:

    Genesis 6:14, 22:3,6-7 (2),9 (2); Exodus 7:19, 25:5,10,13,23,28, 26:15,26, 27:1,6, 30:1,5, 35:7,24,33, 36:20,31, 37:1, 37:4,10,15,25,28, 38:1; Leviticus 1:6-8 (3),12,17, 3:5, 6:12 (2), 11:32, 14:4,6,49,51-52 (2), 15:12; Numbers 13:20, 19:6, 31:20, 35:18; Deuteronomy 4:28, 10:1,3, 19:5, 28:36,64, 29:11,17; Joshua 9:21,23,27; Judges 6:26; 1 Samuel 6:14; 2 Samuel 6:5, 24:22; 1 Kings 6:15, 18:23 (2),33 (3),38; 2 Kings 6:4, 19:18; 1 Chronicles 21:23, 22:4, 29:2 (2); 2 Chronicles 2:16; Nehemiah 8:4, 10:34, 13:31; Job 41:27; Proverbs 26:20-21 (2); Song of Solomon 3:9 (2); Isaiah 10:15, 30:33, 45:19-20 (2), 60:17; Jeremiah 5:14, 7:18, 28:13, 46:22; Lamentations 5:4,13; Ezekiel 15:3, 20:32, 39:10 (2), 41:16,22 (2); Habakkuk 2:19; Haggai 1:8; Zechariah 12:6​

    tree, 88

    Genesis 1:11-12 (2),29 (2), 2:9 (3),16-17 (2), 3:1,3,6 (2),11-12 (2),17,22,24, 18:4,8, 40:19; Exodus 9:25, 10:5, 15:25; Leviticus 27:30; Deuteronomy 12:2, 19:5, 20:19, 21:22-23 (2), 22:6; Joshua 8:29 (2); Judges 9:10-11 (2); 1 Kings 4:33, 6:23,31-34 (4), 14:23; 2 Kings 3:19, 16:4, 17:10; 2 Chronicles 3:5, 28:4; Esther 2:23; Job 14:7, 19:10, 24:20; Psalms 1:3; Proverbs 3:18, 11:30, 13:12, 15:4; Song of Solomon 2:3 (3); Isaiah 40:20, 44:19 (2),23; Isaiah 56:3, 57:5, 65:22; Jeremiah 2:20, 3:6,13, 10:3, 11:19, 17:8; Ezekiel 6:13, 15:2 (2),6, 17:24 (4), 20:47 (2), 21:10, 31:8, 34:27, 36:30; Joel 2:22; Haggai 2:19​

    trees, 79

    Genesis 3:2,8, 23:17; Exodus 10:15 (2); Leviticus 19:23, 23:40 (2), 26:4; Deuteronomy 16:20-21 (2), 20:19-20 (3), 28:42; Joshua 10:26-27 (3); Judges 9:8-15 (8),48; 2 Samuel 5:11; 1 Kings 4:33, 10:10-12 (7); 2 Kings 3:25; 1 Chronicles 16:33, 22:4; 2 Chronicles 9:10-11 (2); Ezra 3:7; Nehemiah 8:15, 9:25, 10:35,37; Psalms 74:5, 96:12, 104:16, 105:33, 148:9; Ecclesiastes 2:5-6 (2); Song of Solomon 2:3, 4:14; Isaiah 7:2, 10:19, 44:14, 55:12; Jeremiah 7:20; Ezekiel 15:2 (2),6, 17:24, 20:28, 31:4-5 (2),8-9 (3),14-16 (3),18 (2), 47:7; Joel 1:12 (2),19​

    timber, 23

    Exodus 31:5; Leviticus 14:45; 1 Kings 5:6,8 (2),18, 6:10, 15:22; 2 Kings 12:12, 22:6; 1 Chronicles 14:1, 22:14-15 (2); 2 Chronicles 2:8-10 (3),14, 16:6, 34:11; Nehemiah 2:8; Ezekiel 26:12; Habakkuk 2:11; Zechariah 5:4​

    stick, 9

    2 Kings 6:6; Lamentations 4:8; Ezekiel 37:16-17 (4),19 (3)​

    gallows, 8

    Esther 5:14 (2), 6:4, 7:9-10 (2), 8:7, 9:13,25​

    sticks, 5

    Numbers 15:32-33 (2); 1 Kings 17:10,12; Ezekiel 37:20​

    carpenters, 3

    2 Kings 12:11 (2); 1 Chronicles 14:1​

    staff, 3

    2 Samuel 21:19, 23:7; 1 Chronicles 20:5​

    stock, 2

    Jeremiah 2:27, 10:8​

    stocks, 2

    Jeremiah 3:8-9 (2); Hosea 4:12​

    carpenter, 1

    Isaiah 44:12-13 (2)​

    helve, 1

    Deuteronomy 19:5​

    pine, 1

    Nehemiah 8:15​

    planks, 1

    Ezekiel 41:25​

    stalks, 1

    Joshua 2:6”​

    The “tree”, as a whole itself, is made up of “sticks” [Hebrew: H6086, same as the word “tree” in Deuteronomy 21:22,23 KJB], see Numbers 15:32,33 KJB:

    Numbers 15:32 KJB - And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

    Numbers 15:33 KJB - And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.​

    These “sticks”, or the various parts of the whole “Tree”, in Scripture, are known as the:

    [1] Root/s: [Deuteronomy 29:18; Judges 5:14; 1 Kings 14:15; 2 Kings 19:30; 2 Chronicles 7:20; Job 5:3, 8:17, 14:8, 18:16, 19:28, 28:9, 29:29, 30:4, 31:12; Psalms 52:5, 80:9; Proverbs 12:3,12; Isaiah 5:24, 11:1,10, 14:29,30, 27:6, 37:31, 40:24, 53:2; Jeremiah 1:10, 12:2, 17:8; Ezekiel 17:6,7,9, 31:7; Daniel 4:15,23,26, 7:6, 11:7; Hosea 9:16, 14:5; Amos 2:9; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 3:10, 13:6,21,29; Mark 4:6,17, 11:20; Luke 3:9, 8:13, 17:6; Romans 11:16,17,18, 15:12; 1 Timothy 6:10; Hebrews 12:15; Jude 1:12; Revelation 5:5, 22:16 KJB].

    A “root” is that part of the “tree” which is generally “in the earth” [Daniel 4:15,23 KJB], and “beneath” [Job 18:16; Amos 2:9 KJB] or “under” [Ezekiel 17:6 KJB] the soil, or “spreadeth out … by the river” [Jeremiah 17:8 KJB], often “wrapped about the heap … the place of stones” [Job 8:17 KJB].

    Any “tree” which was “cut down”, by “the axe” which is “laid unto the root of the trees” [Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9 KJB] or “plucked up by the roots” [Psalms 52:5; Daniel 7:8; Jude 1:12 KJB], it is “twice dead” [Jude 1:12 KJB], having no hope, it is even as the “second death” [Revelation 2:10, 20:6,14, 21:8 KJB].​

    [2] Stock/s [Stump, Shoot, Shaft, Stalk/s, Stem]: [Genesis 41:5,22; Exodus 37:17; Leviticus 25:47; Joshua 2:6; 1 Samuel 5:4; Job 14:8; Isaiah 11:1, 40:24, 44:19; Jeremiah 2:27, 3:9, 10:8; Ezekiel 31:14; Daniel 4:15,23,26, Hosea 4:12, 8:7; Acts 13:26; Philippians 3:5 KJB].

    As it is written, if a “tree” be cut down, yet not to the root, but to even to the Stump with roots left intact in the earth, it still has hope, “For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.” [Job 14:7 KJB].

    King Nebuchadnezzar [II] of [Neo] Babylon, was “purge[d]” [pruned; John 15:2 KJB] in such a way [Daniel 4:15,23,26 KJB], and was delivered from destruction, and shall be in the Kingdom of Heaven [Daniel 4:1-3,36,37 KJB].​

    [3] Branch[es] [Bough/s, Rod/s]: [Genesis 30:37,38,39,41, 40:10,12, 49:22; Exodus 4:2,4,17,20, 7:9,10,12,15,17,29,20, 8:5,16,17, 9:23, 10:13, 14:16, 17:5,9, 21:20, 25:31,32,33,35,36, 37:17,18,19,21,22; Leviticus 23:40, 27:32; Numbers 13:23, 17:2,3,5,6,7,8,9,10, 20:8,9,11; Deuteronomy 24:20; Judges 9:48,49; 1 Samuel 14:27,43; 2 Samuel 7:14, 18:9; Nehemiah 8:15; Job 8:6, 9:34, 14:7,9, 15:30,32, 18:16, 21:9, 29:19; Psalms 2:9, 23:4, 74:2, 80:10,11,15, 89:32, 104:12, 110:2, 125:3; Proverbs 10:13, 11:28, 13:24, 14:3, 22:8,15, 23:13,14, 26:3, 29:15; Song of Songs [Solomon] 7:8; Isaiah 4:2, 9:4,14, 10:5,15,24,26,33, 11:1,4, 14:19,29, 16:8, 17:6,9, 18:5, 19:15, 25:5, 27:10,11, 28:27, 30:31, 60:21; Jeremiah 1:11, 10:16, 11:16, 23:5, 33:15, 48:17, 51:19; Lamentations 3:1; Ezekiel 7:10,11, 8:17, 15:2, 17:3,6,7,8,22,23, 19:10,11,12,14, 20:37, 21:10,13, 31:3,5,6,7,8,9,10,12,13,14, 36:8; Daniel 4:12,14,21, 11:7; Hosea 11:6, 14:6; Joel 1:7; Micah 5;1, 6:9, 7:14; Nahum 2:2; Zechariah 3:8, 4;12, 6:12; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 13:32, 21:8, 24:32; Mark 4:32, 11:8, 13:28; Luke 13:19; John 12:13, 15:2,4,5,6; Romans 11:16,17,18,19,21,24; 1 Corinthians 4:21; 2 Corinthians 11:25; Hebrews 9:4; Revelation 2:27, 11:1, 12:5, 19:15 KJB; see also “barked” [Joel 1:7 KJB]; see also “beam/s” [Genesis 19:8 [roof]; 1 Kings 6:6,9,36, 7:2,3,12; 2 Kings 6:2,5; 2 Chronicles 3:7; Nehemiah 2:8, 3:3,6; Psalms 104:3; Song of Songs [Solomon] 1:7 KJB]]

    [4] Leaf[ves]: [Genesis 3:7, 8:11; Leviticus 26:36; 1 King 6:34; Job 13:25; Psalms 1:3; Isaiah 1:30, 6:13, 34:4, 64:6; Jeremiah 8:13, 17:8, 36:23; Ezekiel 17:9, 41:24, 47:12; Daniel 4:12,14,21; Matthew 21:19, 24:32; Mark 11:13, 13:28; Revelation 22:2 KJB]

    [5] Knop/s [Bud[s, ded]]: [Genesis 40:10; Exodus 25:31,33,34,35,36, 37:17,19,20,21,22; Numbers 17:8; 1 Kings 6:18, 7:24; Job 14:9, 38:27; Psalms 132:17; Song of Songs [Solomon] 6:11, 7:12; Isaiah 18:5, 27:6, 55:10, 61:11; Ezekiel 7:10, 16:7, 29:21; Hosea 8:7; Hebrews 9:4 KJB; see also “lintel” [Amos 9:1; Zephaniah 2:14 KJB]]

    [6] Flower/s [Blossom]: [Exodus 25:31,33,34, 37:17,19,20; Leviticus 15:24,33; Numbers 8:4, 17:5; 1 Samuel 2:33; 1 Kings 6:18,29,32,35, 7:26,49; 2 Chronicles 4:5,21; Song of Songs [Solomon] 2:12, 5:13; Job 14:2, 15:33; Psalms 103:15; Isaiah 5:24, 18:5, 27:6, 28:1,4, 35:1,2, 40:6,7,8; Nahum 1:4; Habakkuk 3:17; 1 Corinthians 7:36; James 1:10,11; 1 Peter 1:24 KJB]

    [7] Fruit/s: [Genesis 1:11,12,29, 3:2,3,6, 4:3, 30:2, 43:11; Exodus 10:15, 21:22, 22:29, 23:10; Leviticus 19:23,24,25, 23:39, 25:3,15,,16,19,21,22, 26:4,20, 27:30; Numbers 13:20,26,27; Deuteronomy 1:25, 7:13, 11:17, 22:9, 26:2, 28:4,11,18,33,40,42,51,53, 30:9, 33:14; Joshua 5:12; Judges 9:11; 2 Samuel 9:10, 16:1,2; 2 Kings 8:6, 19:19,29,30; Nehemiah 9:25,36, 10:35,37; Job 31:39; Psalms 1:3, 21:10, 72:16, 92:14, 104:13, 105:35, 107:37, 127:3, 132:11; Proverbs 1:31, 8:19, 10:16, 11:30, 12:12,14, 13:2, 18:20,21, 27:18, 31:16,31; Ecclesiastes 2:5; Song of Songs [Solomon] 2:3, 4:13,16, 6:11, 7:13, 8:11,12; Isaiah 3:10, 4:2, 10:12, 13:18, 14:29, 16:9, 27:6,9, 28:4, 33:9, 37:30,31, 40:10,12, 48:32, 57:19, 65:21; Jeremiah 2:7, 6:19, 7:20, 11:16,19, 12:2, 17:8,10, 21:14, 29:5,28, 32:19; Lamentations 2:20, 4:9; Ezekiel 17:8,9,23, 19:12,14, 25:4, 34:27, 36:8,11,30, 47:12; Daniel 4:12,14,21; Hosea 9:16, 10:1,13, 14:8; Joel 2:22; Amos 2:9, 6:12, 7:14, 8:1,2, 9:14; Micah 6:7, 7:1,13; Habakkuk 3:17; Haggai 1:10; Zechariah 8:12; Malachi 1:12, 3:11; Matthew 3:8,10, 7:16,17,18,19,20, 12:33, 13:8,23,26, 21:19,34,41,43, 26:29; Mark 4:7,8,20,28,29, 11:14, 12:2, 14:25; Luke 1:42, 3:8,9, 6:43,44, 8:8,14,15, 12:17,18, 13:6,7,9, 20:10, 22:18; John 4:36, 12:24, 15:2,4,5,8,16; Acts 2:30; Romans 1:13, 6:21,22, 7:4,5, 15:28; 1 Corinthians 9:7; 2 Corinthians 9:10; Galatians 5:22; Ephesians 5:9; Philippians 1:11,22, 4:17; Colossians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:6; Hebrews 12:11, 13:15; James 3:17,18, 5:7,18; Jude 1:12; Revelation 18:14, 22:2 KJB; see also “firstfruit/s [Exodus 23:16,19, 34:22,26; Leviticus 2:12,14, 23:10,17,20; Numbers 18:12, 28:26; Deuteronomy 18:4, 26:10; 2 Kings 4:42; 2 Chronicles 31:5; Nehemiah 10:35,37, 12:44, 13:31; Proverbs 3:9; Jeremiah 2:3; Ezekiel 20:40, 44:30, 48:14; Romans 8:23, 11:16, 16:5; 1 Corinthians 15:20,23, 16:15; James 1:18; Revelation 14:4 KJB]]

    [8] Seed/s: [Genesis 1:11,12,29, 3:15, 4:25, 7:3, 9:9, 12:7, 13:15,16, 15:3,5,13,18, 16:10, 17:7,8,9,10, 12,19, 19:32,34, 21:12,13, 22:17,18, 24:7,60, 26:3,4,24, 28:4,13,14, 32:12, 35:12, 38:8,9, 46:6,7, 47:19,23,24, 48:4,11,19; Exodus 16:31, 28:43, 30:21, 32:13, 33:1; Leviticus 11:37,38, 12:2, 15:16,17,18,32, 18:21, 19:19, 20:2,3,4, 21:15,17,21, 22:3,4, 26:16, 27:16,30; Numbers 5:28, 11:7, 14:24, 16:40, 18:19, 20:5, 24:7, 25:13; Deuteronomy 4:37, 10:15, 11:9,10, 14:22, 22:9, 28:38,46,59, 30:6,19, 31:21, 34:4; Joshua 24:3; Ruth 4:12; 1 Samuel 2:20, 8:15, 20:42, 24:21; 2 Samuel 4:8, 7:12, 22:51; 1 Kings 2:33, 11:14,39, 18:32; 2 Kings 5:27, 11:1, 17:20, 25:25; 1 Chronicles 16:13, 17:11; 2 Chronicles 20:7, 22:10; Ezra 2:59, 9:2; Nehemiah 7:61, 9:2,8; Esther 6:13, 9:27,28,31, 10:3; Job 5:25, 21:8, 39:12; Psalms 18:50, 21:10, 22:23,30, 25:13, 37:25,26,28, 69:36, 89:4,29,36, 102:28, 105:6, 106:27, 112:2, 126:6; Proverbs 11:21; Ecclesiastes 11:6; Isaiah 1:4, 5:10, 6:13, 14:20, 17:11, 23:3, 30:23, 41:8, 43:5, 44:3, 45:19,25, 48:19, 53:10, 54:3, 55:10, 57:3,4, 59:21, 61:9. 65:9,23, 66:22; Jeremiah 2:21, 7:15, 22:28,30, 23:8, 29:32, 30:10, 31:27,36,37, 33:22,26, 35:7,9, 36:31, 41:1, 46:27, 49:10; Ezekiel 17:5,13, 20:5, 43:19, 44:22; Daniel 1:3, 2:43, 9:1; Joel 1:17; Amos 9:13; Haggai 2:19; Zechariah 8:12; Malachi 2:3,15; Matthew 13:4,19,20,22,23,24,27,31,32,37,38, 17:20, 22:24; Mark 4:26,27,31, 12:19,20,21,22; Luke 1:55, 8:5,11, 13:19, 17:6, 20:28; John 7:42, 8:33,37; Acts 3:25, 7:5,6, 13:23; Romans 1:3, 4:13,16,18, 9:7,8,29, 11:1; 1 Corinthians 15:38; 2 Corinthians 9:10, 11:22; Galatians 3:16,19,29; 2 Timothy 2:8; Hebrews 2:16, 11:11,18; 1 Peter 1:23; 1 John 3:9; Revelation 12:17 KJB]

    Further, it is written, any “tree” can only bring forth after its “kind” [Genesis 1:11,12 KJB]:

    Matthew 7:17 KJB - Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    Matthew 7:18 KJB - A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    Matthew 7:19 KJB - Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    Matthew 12:33 KJB - Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

    Luke 6:43 KJB - For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.​

    Paul the Apostle, in the New Testament quotes Deuteronomy 21:22,23 KJB, in regards to the “tree” that Jesus was hung upon, when he writes:

    Galatians 3:13 KJB - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:​

    Peter does the same, recorded by Luke, in reference:

    Acts 5:30 - KJB - The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

    Acts 10:39 - And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

    1 Peter 2:24 KJB - Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.​

    Other examples, of others in the Old Testament “hanged on a tree” are found in Genesis 40:19; Joshua 8:29; Esther 2:23 KJB.

    Now, since it is written, in many places in Scripture, that any “tree”, including the “tree”, as Paul writes and cites, upon which Jesus was hung, is not simply made up of a “root/s”, nor a “stump”, nor a “seed/s, nor a “flower/s, nor a “fruit/s, nor a “knop/s, nor a “leaf[ves]”, but incorporating them all, then so also includes, the “branches” which come off of the “stump” [trunk], and for the cross this is known commonly as the 'transverse' or 'transom' “patibulum”, which Jesus carried, further reading, may be done here, for the historical uses of it - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument of Jesus%27 crucifixion .

    Let us remember, that Jesus said, “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” [John 5:39 KJB]

    Jesus hands were “stretched out”, on this “tree”, even to the “right hand” and to the “left”:

    Psalms 88:9 KJB - Mine eye mourneth by reason of affliction: LORD, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee.

    Romans 10:21 KJB - But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

    Matthew 27:38 KJB - Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.​

    For it is written of Jesus:

    Psalms 22:12 KJB - Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

    Psalms 22:13 KJB - They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

    Psalms 22:14 KJB - I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

    Psalms 22:15 KJB - My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

    Psalms 22:16 KJB - For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

    Psalms 22:17 KJB - I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

    Psalms 22:18 KJB - They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.​

    And further:

    Matthew 27:37 KJB - And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.​

    For Jesus “hands” were “pierced” by the “nails” [plural], one nail in the right hand, the other in the left, while the accusation, His title, above:

    John 20:25 KJB - The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.​

    Jesus opened his arms wide, as “far as the east is from the west” in His love, to deliver and save:

    Psalms 103:10 KJB - He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

    Psalms 10:3:11 KJB - For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

    Psalms 103:12 KJB - As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.​

    For the Scriptures declare that He would deliver by His “mighty hand” and “out stretched arm”.

    That Tree of Life:

    Deuteronomy 21:23 KJB - His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged [is] accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.

    Acts 5:30 KJB - The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

    Acts 10:39 KJB - And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

    1 Corinthians 2:2 KJB - For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

    Galatians 2:20 KJB - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Galatians 6:14 KJB - But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
    While the central root "stock" would be a pole-beam, there would also be the cross-beam, the 'Patiblum', which would be the "branches" coming off the root stock, and thus be a "tree" as Paul and others called it.

    Even in the Footnotes of the NWT, they allow for the word "tree":

    "... [Acts 5:20 NWT] The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed, hanging him on a stake.*n ..."; "... *Or “tree.” ..." [1]

    "... [Acts 10:39 NWT] And we are witnesses of all the things he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; but they did away with him by hanging him on a stake.* ..."; "... *Or “tree.” ..." [1]

    "... [Acts 13:29 NWT] And when they had accomplished all the things written about him, they took him down from the stake* and laid him in a tomb.*z ..."; "... *Or “tree.” ..." [1]

    "... [1 Peter 2:24 NWT] He himself bore our sinsu in his own body on the stake,*v so that we might die to* sins and live to righteousness. And “by his wounds you were healed.”w ..."; "... *Or “tree.” ..." [1]

    Other mentions:

    "... [Joshua 8:29 NWT] He hung the king of Aʹi on a stake* until the evening, and as the sun was about to set, Joshua gave the order to take his dead body down from the stake.v Then they pitched it at the entrance of the city gate and raised up a great pile of stones over him, which is there to this day. ..."; "... *Or “tree.” ..." [1]

    "... [2 Samuel 18:9,10,14 NWT] 9 Abʹsa·lom eventually found himself facing the servants of David. Abʹsa·lom was riding on a mule, and the mule went under the thick branches of a large tree, and his head got entangled in the big tree, so that he was suspended in midair* while the mule he had been riding kept going.

    10 Then someone saw it and told Joʹab:l “Look! I have seen Abʹsa·lom hanging in a big tree.”


    14 To this Joʹab said: “I am not going to waste any more time with you!” So he took three spikes* in his hand and drove them through the heart of Abʹsa·lom while he was still alive in the midst of the big tree. ..." [1]

    In the Typology of 2 Samuel 18:9,10,14 KJB, we read of Absalom [the son of David; whose namke means the "Father's peace"] was, because of sin, rebellion against the King, hung upon a tree [by his hair, his glory], and was suspended between Heven and Earth, and struck with three piercings, or as the NWT says, "three spikes", as large nails, and then in his death buried as wicked.

    2 Samuel 18:9 KJB - And Absalom met the servants of David. And Absalom rode upon a mule, and the mule went under the thick boughs of a great oak, and his head caught hold of the oak, and he was taken up between the heaven and the earth; and the mule that was under him went away.

    2 Samuel 18:10 KJB - And a certain man saw it, and told Joab, and said, Behold, I saw Absalom hanged in an oak.

    2 Samuel 18:14 KJB - Then said Joab, I may not tarry thus with thee. And he took three darts in his hand, and thrust them through the heart of Absalom, while he was yet alive in the midst of the oak.​

    Just as Jesus, who took our sins upon himself, was hung upon a Tree, the son of David, the Father's peace towards man, suspended between Heaven and Earth, pierced by three nails upon the Cross, then in His death, taken down and buried as with the wicked [Isaiah 53:9 KJB].

    upload_2018-4-9_1-13-0.png

    Jesus also himself said, speaking in another manner:

    John 15:1 KJB - I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

    John 15:5 KJB - I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.​

    And since Jesus is “the vine”, it climbs up and supported by wood, and stretches out its tendrils along the trellises.

    [​IMG]

    https://sep.yimg.com/ay/yhst-135559240450413/grape-vine-font-letter-t-3.gif

    [​IMG]

    http://www.baag.com.au/images/pics/grape_spurpruning.jpg

    Christ Jesus is the ROD:

    Isaiah 11:1 KJB - And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:​

    Christ Jesus is the BRANCH:

    Isaiah 4:2 KJB - In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

    Jeremiah 33:15 KJB - In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

    Zechariah 3:8 KJB - Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

    Zechariah 6:12 KJB - And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:​

    Jesus Christ is the ROOT:

    Revelation 5:5 KJB - And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

    Revelation 22:16 KJB - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    etc.​

    The Scriptures speak of other “tree/s of life”, and yet they all point to Jesus Christ:

    Wisdom is a Tree of Life:

    Proverbs 3:13 KJB - Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

    Proverbs 3:18 KJB - She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.​

    'She' is the feminine, submissive form, that which is under a Head, see 1 Corinthians 11:3 KJB; then see also Philippians 2:1-11 KJB, but does not make Christ Jesus a woman.

    According to the text of Proverbs 8 itself, God was the one who was creating the Heavens and the Earth, and by the Scriptures themselves, we know that Christ Jesus Himself created all things [Isaiah 45:12; Psalms 95:5; Job 9:8; Jeremiah 10:12; John 1:3; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16; etc KJB], for it was God by His wisdom [which was always with Him] that they were created.

    Proverbs 8:22 KJB - The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

    Proverbs 8:23 KJB - I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

    Proverbs 8:24 KJB - When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.

    Proverbs 8:25 KJB - Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

    Proverbs 8:26 KJB - While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

    Proverbs 8:27 KJB - When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

    Proverbs 8:28 KJB - When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

    Proverbs 8:29 KJB - When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

    Proverbs 8:30 KJB - Then I was by him, [as] one brought up [with him]: and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;​

    Yet we know that Christ Jesus is the “Wisdom of God [the Father]”:

    1 Corinthians 1:24 KJB - But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:30 KJB - But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    Luke 11:49 KJB - Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:​

    Therefore, search for “Wisdom”:

    Jeremiah 29:13 KJB - And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

    Jeremiah 29:14 KJB - And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.​

    What does it mean “to know Wisdom”:

    Proverbs 1:2 KJB - To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;

    John 17:3 KJB - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Proverbs 1:3 KJB - To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;

    Luke 20:1 KJB - And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,

    Psalms 86:11 KJB - Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.

    John 8:2 KJB - And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

    Isaiah 28:9 KJB - Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

    Isaiah 28:6 KJB - For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.

    Micah 4:2 KJB - And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

    John 6:45 KJB - It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    1 Thessalonians 4:9 KJB - But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

    Psalm 34:8 KJB - O taste and see that the LORD [is] good: blessed [is] the man [that] trusteth in him.

    Psalm 34:9 KJB - O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for [there is] no want to them that fear him.

    Psalm 34:10 KJB - The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good [thing].

    Psalm 34:11 KJB - Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

    Psalm 34:12 KJB - What man [is he that] desireth life, [and] loveth [many] days, that he may see good?

    Psalm 34:13 KJB - Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.

    Psalm 34:14 KJB - Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.

    Psalm 34:15 KJB - The eyes of the LORD [are] upon the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their cry.​

    Wisdom in the Heart, Christ in you the Hope of Glory:

    Proverbs 2:9 KJB - When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;

    Colossians 1:27 KJB - To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

    What does it mean to “despise Wisdom”:

    Proverbs 1:7 KJB - The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

    Psalms 14:1 KJB - [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

    Psalms 53:1 KJB - [[To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.​

    It is not so much that they said, “There is no God”, but yet moreso said, “No, God”. For when God said, “I AM”, they said, “No, God”, we are, thus they say “No”, I will not, etc, to God, and also then deny Him in existence as the I AM. When God saith to do this or that, and we say “No, God”, we are in effect denying, yes, even despising, eternal life, and wisdom, etc.

    Proverbs 30:9 KJB - Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.

    Isaiah 53:3 KJB - He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    Psalms 22:6 KJB - But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

    Proverbs 1:20 KJB - They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

    Isaiah 5:24 KJB - Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.​

    The Fruit of the Righteous, is a Tree of Life:

    Proverbs 11:30 KJB - The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.​

    Hope, when it comes, is a Tree of Life:

    Proverbs 13:12 KJB - Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.​

    Whom is our Blessed Hope, event the Desire of all Nations?

    Titus 2:13 KJB - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    Haggai 2:7 KJB - And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.​

    A Wholesome Tongue is a Tree of Life:

    Proverbs 15:4 KJB - A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.​

    Wherein is a Wholesome Tongue, but He that speaks the Word?

    2 Samuel 23:2 KJB - The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

    1 Timothy 6:3 KJB - If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​

    Yet, even of these, they speak of Jesus the Christ, crucified upon the cross.

    The plan of Redemption, the Image of God again seen in mankind, the Tree of Life, planted in the Heart, that God may once again Walk in the Garden of the heart of man [a Garden enclosed by the Wall, even that Law of Love], for through sin, we evicted God from the Heart, and He had to evict us from the Garden and from the Tree of Life, but now Christ Jesus has made a way, through Himself, that we may once again be in Atonement with God and man, God with us, yes, God Himself indwelt in us... who can explain it? But what everlasting Joy, what Fruit of Righteousness, what Fruit of Love...

    What of the Serpent upon a Pole? Did it have any cross piece or branching? Yes ...

    The Hebrew H5251, "נס", "nês", is also used for a "sail" on a Mast of a ship, which is not merely a pole, but a pole with small corssbeams to hold the sails, and top sail, crows nests, etc.:

    [​IMG]

    https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/detail-ship-s-mast-greek-flag-32846403.jpg

    Isa 33:23 KJB - Thy tacklings are loosed; they could not well strengthen their mast, they could not spread the sail: then is the prey of a great spoil divided; the lame take the prey.

    Eze 27:7 KJB - Fine linen with broidered work from Egypt was that which thou spreadest forth to be thy sail; blue and purple from the isles of Elishah was that which covered thee.
    It is also used in a "banner", which was an upright pole, with a crosspiece for the ensign:

    upload_2018-4-9_2-33-42.jpeg

    https://www.biblecartoons.co.uk/images/345.jpg

    [​IMG]

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/96/e8/a7/96e8a76f290c8355b7b7a33543b42d56--israel-flag-bible-knowledge.jpg

    standard, 7

    Isaiah 49:22, 62:10; Jeremiah 4:6,21; Jeremiah 50:2, 51:12,27​
    ensign, 6

    Isaiah 5:26, 11:10,12, 18:3, 30:17, 31:9​
    banner, 2

    Just like this:

    [​IMG]
    https://i2.wp.com/craigladams.com/b...ads/2015/03/bronze_serpent_3.jpg?w=1024&ssl=1

    [​IMG]
    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/4juIneRsTj0/maxresdefault.jpg

    [​IMG]
    Link

    moses Cross serpent pole picture - Google Search

    Numbers 21:8 KJB - And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

    Numbers 21:9 KJB - And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
    The Serpent also represents Christ Jesus, as He bare our sins upn the "tree".

    2 Corinthians 5:21 KJB - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    1 Peter 2:24 KJB - Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.​

    Later on the bronze serpent was destroyed:

    2 Kings 18:4 KJB - He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.​

    A Secondary look:

    A bit more for our Jehovah's Witness friends, and also for our Jewish, Islamic and even atheist and skeptic friends.

    A Cross the Scriptures, the Instrument of Suffering:

    Jesus and the instrument of suffering.

    Jesus, the “lamb of God” [Genesis 22:8; John 1:29,36; Revelation 5:6, etc KJB] or “Passover” [1 Corinthians 5:7 KJB] died, even as the one True Sacrifice [Hebrews, etc], of which all of the shadow/typical/ensamples pointed to [Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 8:5, 10:1, etc KJB].

    While that is the most important thing to consider above all, it is not the only thing to consider, since the Holy Spirit, even the “another Comforter” [John 14:16 KJB], yes, “the Spirit of Truth” [James 4:17 KJB], would lead us into all truth [John 15:26, 16:13 KJB].

    A question has been asked by many,

    What was the shape of the instrument by which Jesus was Crucified by the Romans?, in other words, was it in the shape of the T[au], t[ee], the 'x', 'y', or was it merely an single upright stake/pole/pallisade, or something else?

    While this question is truly secondary to the original and greater reality of Jesus death, and the plan of redemption itself and what it means to God, the Heavenlies and us, there is no reason to consider this question to be invalid, or unworthy of consideration, nor ultimately unimportant, and if to be considered truly and most prayerfully, then what implications or even direct lessons can we learn from the answer to the question, out of/from the Word of God, for everything written is there for a purpose, even for our learning and instruction:

    2 Timothy 3:16 KJB - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

    We could begin by citing all manner of facts from history, etc, but let us begin with the Word of God, and then verify through history, since the Bible is the criterion for Truth, and all evidence found cannot disagree with it, since it is written:

    John 17:17 KJB - Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    Psalms 12:6 KJB - The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

    Isaiah 8:20 KJB - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    Titus 1:2 KJB - “... God, that cannot lie ...”

    Hebrews 6:18 KJB - “... impossible for God to lie ...”

    Proverbs 8:7 KJB - For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

    1 Peter 2:22 KJB - Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

    Isaiah 45:19 KJB - I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.​

    Yet, it is not enough to simply turn to Scripture and point to one example, and turn from those pages, but we much of necessity “search the Scriptures” [John 5:39 KJB], and be like the Bereans, which were “more noble than those in Thessalonica” to see if these “things were so” [Acts 17:11 KJB], but we must go by the rules of the Bible itself, which is written unto us “precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little” [Isaiah 28:10,13 KJB], and moreso, must be found in the “mouth of two or three witnesses” so that every word “be established” [2 Corinthians 13:1, etc KJB], and so being found in one place of the Prophets, it cannot be found to contradict another, for the spirits of the Prophets are “subject to the Prophets” [1 Corinthians 14:32 KJB], which are subject to the Law of God, even the Ten Commandments [Numbers 22:18; Deuteronomy 4:2; Ecclesiastes 12:13,14 KJB].

    Let us put away any preconceived ideas, and simply take up the Word of God, even prayerfully, and ask God for the Truth of the matter, for if we are seeking Him, His Will, and His Truth, He will give it freely unto us simply for the asking [Luke 11:1-13 KJB].

    We can know for certain that the Scriptures point us to Christ Jesus, for it is written:

    Acts 3:18 KJB - But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
    Let us notice that Acts 3:18 KJB, speaks that “all of his [God's] prophets” foretold that “Christ should suffer”.

    This means we ought to be able to go to the Old Testament to see if it speaks of this suffering, and manner by which Jesus would die.

    We shall then also consider the New Testament texts, which are built upon the foundation of the Old Testament texts.

    Some have said:

    "As for death resulting from being nailed up, the most popular thought is that the Messiah would die of suffocation/asphyxiation..."

    However, the Scripture says nothing about Christ dying of "suffocation/asphyxiation", but rather it expresses He died of a great sorrow of heart, and separation, because of our sin, from the Father and Holy Spirit.

    Therefore, without in any way saying that any given scientific articles about crucifixion in general is bad, but that the apriori that Christ must have died in that manner is incorrect, and thus, while the science is fine in its specific demonstration, it fails to address the Scriptures in what they themselves portray. We are not dealing in "popular" belief, but rather – Truth.

    Matthew 27:45 KJB - Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

    Matthew 27:46 KJB - And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Mark 15:33 KJB - And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

    Mark 15:34 KJB - And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    This is citing Psalms 22 KJB, to which Jesus directed us:

    Psalm 22:1 KJB - [[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?

    Psalm 22:2 KJB - O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

    Psalm 22:24 KJB - For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard. etc.​

    Therefore, all the science which declares a man may indeed suffocate in such a manner being upraised, accurate in its details as may be as demonstrated, is not the Scriptural account at all. Notice where the weight of the sin of the world, already begun to come upon Christ Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane.

    Isaiah 53:4 KJB - Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

    Matthew 26:38 KJB - Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

    Mark 14:34 KJB - And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

    Luke 22:44 KJB - And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.​

    Notice please, that Jesus was not suffocating, and dying for lack of breath, for He cries out loud so the whole country side could hear him, even after many hours [3rd hour to 9th hour, about 9 AM to 3 PM, time of the morning and evening sacrifices] upon the Cross, and spoke clearly many times during the events.

    This would not be possible if dying for breath and suffocation, and I am sure the same science which has been so kindly demonstrated would reveal this clearly if sought after more deeply:

    Psalm 22:1 KJB - [[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?

    Psalm 22:2 KJB - O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

    Psalm 22:24 KJB - For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

    Matthew 27:45 KJB - Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

    Matthew 27:46 KJB - And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Matthew 27:47 KJB - Some of them that stood there, when they heard [that], said, This [man] calleth for Elias.

    Matthew 27:50 KJB - Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    Mark 15:33 KJB - And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

    Mark 15:34 KJB - And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Mark 15:35 KJB - And some of them that stood by, when they heard [it], said, Behold, he calleth Elias.

    Mark 15:37 KJB - And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

    Luke 23:43 KJB - And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    Luke 23:46 KJB - And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    John 19:26 KJB - When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

    John 19:27 KJB - Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own [home].

    John 19:28 KJB - After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

    John 19:29 KJB - Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to his mouth.

    John 19:30 KJB - When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.​

    Yet, some may digress and attempt to shift the topic to a "pagan" idea:

    Yet, we would still need to ascertain what the actual shape of the instrument of torture and death that Christ Jesus was "hanged" upon whether paganism used such a symbol or not.

    Further, the Bible Society itself, along with Mr. Russell were associated with the symbol of the 'cross and crown', a verified symbol of the secret orders and other such things [which include even people of the occult, like citing Johannes Greber]:

    [​IMG]

    Source - http://www.jwfacts.com/images/wt_cover_knights_templar.gif

    We can see the "Cross" there, and elsewhere, even amidst the Word "WATCH TOWER" itself, since it caries two "T[aus]" in it.

    Therefore, when such is brought up, ask them to please remain focused upon the topic of the subject, and not to become side-tracked with other things.

    [1] The Sanctuary, the Pattern/Type given by God, reveals the Cross itself, let us take a look.

    [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. Hebrews 9:23

    The "earthly" tabernacle, "the tupos", the type or plan, being "patterned" after the "heavenly":

    Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. Acts 7:44​

    And thou shalt rear up the tabernacle according to the fashion thereof which was shewed thee in the mount. Exodus 26:30

    … is they, tabernacle in the wilderness, and that which went with it, were merely the "patterns of things in the heavens", which could not truly be "purified" with those typological sacrifices ...

    Notice it says in the Holy Scriptures, the Heavenly Sanctuary, the True Tabernacle, "which the Lord pitched and not man", "the heavenly things themselves", could and must be "purified" with "better sacrifices" than the typological/shadowy ones …

    Exodus 25:9 KJB -According to all that I shew thee, [after] the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make [it].

    Exodus 25:40 KJB - And look that thou make [them] after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.

    Numbers 8:4 KJB - And this work of the candlestick [was of] beaten gold, unto the sh^ft thereof, unto the flowers thereof, [was] beaten work: according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses, so he made the candlestick.

    1 Chronicles 28:19 KJB - All [this, said David], the LORD made me understand in writing by [his] hand upon me, [even] all the works of this pattern.

    Ephesians 1:20 KJB - Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

    Hebrews 8:1 KJB - Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

    Hebrews 8:2 KJB - A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

    Hebrews 8:5 KJB - Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

    Hebrews 9:11;p KJB - “But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands ...”

    Hebrews 9:24 KJB - For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:​

    Tupos = type, pattern. Strong's G5179 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=G5179&t=KJB

    See Romans 5:14 KJB, Adam was the "figure" of Him who was to come.

    See 1 Corinthians 10:6,11 KJB "ensample/s" is the tupos, of that which we are to learn from, the "pattern".​

    Skia = shadow, not the substance. Strong's G4639 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=G4639&t=KJB

    See Colossians 2:17 KJB, shadow of the types, see Hebrews 10:1 KJB

    See Hebrews 8:5 KJB, earthly priests and High Priests, but a type pointing to Christ Jesus own Priesthood and High Priesthood

    See Hebrews 10:1 KJB, shadow of the types, see Colossians 2:17 KJB

    AntiTupos = antitype, reality which is greater than the type/shadow. Strong's G499 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...ngs=G499&t=KJB

    See Hebrews 9:24 KJB: “For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:"

    see also 1 Peter 3:21 KJB.​

    Let us now establish the pattern/type and reality/antitype:

    "...even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us..." 1 Corinthians 5:7;p KJB​

    John the Baptist understood the type/reality, that Jesus was the Anti-typical [fulfillment/reality, that which is the substance, casting the shadow, not the shadow itself],"...Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God..." John 1:29;p KJB and "And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God" John 1:36 KJB

    Since the scripture is clear that Jesus is the "Lamb of God", and that Christ Jesus is our "Passover", it is clear that the Passover must of necessity be sacrificed upon the 14th day after trhe New Moon of Abib/Nisan:

    Exodus 12:11 KJB - And thus shall ye eat it; [with] your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it [is] the LORD'S passover.

    Exodus 12:21 KJB - Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.

    Exodus 12:27 KJB - That ye shall say, It [is] the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.

    Leviticus 23:5 KJB- In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover.​

    This, should be enough to establish that Jesus, "our passover" was to be killed upon the 14th of Aviv/Nisan, though there is of course many more substantiating texts [Numbers 9:5, 28:16, etc KJB], see also Joshua 5:10 KJB, where they obeyed this ordinance:

    Joshua 5:10 KJB - And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.​

    If Jesus is not the fulfillment of the tupos/type, he being the Anti-type/reality/substance, what then is the point of John pointing to Him and saying that He is the "Lamb of God", or to Paul saying "Christ our Passover"? There of course would be no point in them doing so, if the original type did not actually exist to point to the anti-type.

    What day then immediately followed the 14th of the Passover? It was the first Day of the feast of Unleavened Bread, which took place always upon the 15th day following the New Moon of the month Abib/Nisan:

    Leviticus 23:6 KJB - And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.​

    This was the tupos or type. Unleavened is to be without sin, since this leaven was pointing to sin. Christ Jesus died without sin and was so buried, for unleavened bread was also eaten on the Passover day previous.

    This first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread was a seasonal feast sabbath, where "no servile work" could be done:

    Leviticus 23:7 KJB - In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.​

    ...this is seen in Joshua 5:11 KJB, even as the obeyed the ordinances:

    Joshua 5:11 KJB - And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes, and parched [corn] in the selfsame day.​

    The day which immediately followed this first day of unleavened bread, was the wavesheaf/firstfruits offering:

    Leviticus 23;10 KJB - Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:

    Leviticus 23:11 KJB - And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

    Leviticus 23:12 KJB - And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.​

    ...we see what God was doing even as we go back to Joshua 5 KJB, even the day which followed immediately after the first day of the feast of Unleavened bread:

    Joshua 5:12 KJB - And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year.​

    Thus from scripture we have so far:

    14th Abib/Nisan = Passover

    15th Abib/Nisan = First day of the feast of unleavened bread, seasonal feast sabbath, no servile work

    16th Abib/Nisan = Firstfruits/Wavesheaf offering​

    Three consecutive days.

    The First fruits is the type/tupos of the Resurrection, being a first part of the great harvest which belongs unto the Lord.

    If Christ Jesus was dead for the whole day of the Firstfruits, no matter the chronology, then He is not the fulfillment of the Firstfruits, and we are now stuck with broken scripture, for scripture says of Christ Jesus:

    1 Corinthians 15:20 KJB - But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.

    1 Corinthians 15:23 KJB - But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

    The Great harvest comes later.

    Christ Jesus could not become the "Firstfruits" until Resurrected.

    And we may follow this into Pentecost, and further using the Pentatuech, Psalms and Acts, Hebrews and Revelation. If any are interested, we may see this evidence later when requested.

    Therefore, without having to demonstrate all, as it would be entirely too lengthy for this study, I will jump ahead to the Day of Atonement found in Leviticus 16 and 23, Daniel and Revelation.

    In the Day of Atonement, there was to be an entirely different atonement than found in Leviticus 4. There are multiple atonements, as we may see later, but for the moment, let us consider just the Day of Atonement itself.

    The sinner throughout the year, if he committed any sin, could come with a sacrifice [generally] and have those sins confessed over the substitute, slay it, and then the blood was carried into further work into the sanctuary.

    The sinner was 'forgiven' and free to go, but his sins remained 'stored' in the blood which was then taken into the Sanctuary.

    Once a year there was a total cleansing process where all sin was completely removed. Notice that the sins from the sinner were forgiven beforehand, but not totally removed from the sanctuary until this time.

    The peoples who sins were 'stored' in the sanctuary could still be cut off of Israel at this time, see Leviticus 16. Now is the Day of Atonement, by Scripture, and Prophecy, see Revelation 14:6-12 to begin with, for “the hour of his Judgment is come”, while the Everlasting Gospel goes forward to the whole earth in the last days.

    However, moving back into this pattern of the Sanctuary, the very places of the Sanctuary itself, demonstrate the pattern of Jesus suffering and sacrifice.

    Beginning at the outer court, we have the Altar of Burnt Offering. Moving from there, we come to the Laver of Blood/Water. From thence in the outer court, we move through the veil into the Holy Place of the Sanctuary, and immediately to our right hand is the Table of Shew Bread, and to our left is then the 7 Branch Golden Candlestick, and ahead of us is the Altar of Incense. Moving past these, through the second veil, into the Most Holy Place, we come to the Ark of the Covenant and the Law of God therein. These are in the Pattern of the Cross itself. In each place, Christ Jesus received a wound.

    [1] Altar of Burnt Offering – Jesus was pierced in the Feet, by a nail.
    [2] Laver of Blood Water – Jesus was pierced in His Side, by a spear, out then came blood and water.
    [3] Table of Shew Bread – Jesus was pierced in the Right Hand, by a nail.
    [4] 7 Branch Golden Candlestick – Jesus was pierced in the Left Hand, by a nail.
    [5] Altar of Incense – Jesus died of a Broken Heart, wounded by the sin/s of mankind.
    [6] Ark of the Covenant – Jesus was pierced in the Head, by the Crown of Thorns He wore.​

    Image Source: http://www.lightministries.com/SDA/6a8b2bf0.jpg

    Image Source: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-y6wnmN6pkj.../Sanctuary.jpg


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    There is much, much more in this Pattern given of God, yes, even the whole plan of Salvation/Redemption, and for that, I will recommend presently for further study, Ivor Myers Blueprint, and more later if needed:



    Jesus was raised in “flesh and bones” [Luke 24:39 KJB], and forever, that is eternally, will carry those wounds with Him, evidence of the Love of God, of what He did, by becoming man, for us. In that day, when we are all with Him, there will be some who have yet never heard of His great sacrifice for them, and they will ask, and He will tell:

    Zechariah 13:6 KJB - And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.​

    Yet, there is so much more evidence to demonstrate that Jesus will ever carry those wounds. More may be shared at a latter period, if needful, but let us continue with the Cross, the very pattern given by God, throughout the Scriptures.

    Here is a stand alone Prophecy:

    Let us now turn quickly to Prophecy, and see the Pattern again:

    Isaiah 28:16,17 KJB.

    Isaiah 28:16 KJB - Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner [stone], a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

    Isaiah 28:17 KJB - Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.​

    Can any not see Christ Jesus in vs 16 [compare to Romans 9:33; 1 Corinthians 3:11; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:8, etc KJB], but what more in vs 17!

    Judgment also will I lay to the line... What is a line?, it is a measuring tool upon the horizontal... as far as the east is from the west; eternal in either direction, relationship of man to man, straight

    *******


    and righteousness to the plummet... What is a plummet?, it is a measuring tool upon the vertical, binding Heaven and earth together [Genesis 1:1, vav, aleph, tav]; from highest to lowest, relationship of man to God, straight

    *
    *
    *
    *
    *
    *
    *


    And both together...

    *******
    *******
    *******
    *******
    *******
    *******
    *******


    The Justice and Righteousness of God, the very Love of God, meet there, forever demonstrated before all the universe... the truest standard of measurement, the perfect 'meter' - God' love, God is love....

    In fact, the Cross, is a Throne. Jesus is Crowned King of the Jews. He has them which are on his right and left. There is also a seat placed upon it also.

    There is more, much more, let us look and see, even in the very lives of the Patriarchs themselves...

    Moses and Joshua, Aaron and Hur; Exodus 17.

    Exodus 17:9 KJB - And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.

    Exodus 17:10 KJB - So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with Amalek: and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill.

    Exodus 17:11 KJB - And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed.

    Exodus 17:12 KJB - But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.

    Exodus 17:13 KJB - And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.​

    Moses, representing Jesus as deliverer, goes atop a hill, where all may see him [Exodus 17:9 KJB].

    Jesus was taken to the hill of the Skull [Calvary; Luke 23:33 KJB], Golgotha [Mark 15:22; John 19:17 KJB], where all may see him [Isaiah 45:22; John 12:32 KJB].​

    Moses, representing Jesus as deliverer, has two persons beside him, one on the Right, the other on the Left [Exodus 17:12 KJB].

    Jesus, was crucified between two persons, one of the Right hand, the other on the left [Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:33; John 19:18 KJB].​

    Moses, representing Jesus as deliverer, was victorious for his people, so long as his hands remained outstretched and steady, until the going down of the sun [Exodus 17:12 KJB].

    Jesus, whose arms and hands were each outstretched, with a “nail” [“as a nail in a sure place”; Isaiah 22:23,25 KJB] in each hand, thus plural "nails", whose “bones were out of joint”, even “as far as the east is from the west”, that they could not move, were steady, yes even till the going down of the sun [the “ninth hour”; approx 3 PM] on the preparation day, just before the 7th Day Sabbath of the Lord God and feast sabbath began together, his victory assured, memorialized forever. Just as Joshua was victorious, this Joshua was too, over the real enemies of God, delivering the people with “mighty hand” and “outstretched arm”.​

    Such a great sacrifice that God has made, for us, to deliver us from the power of sin, satan and self.

    Samson; Judges 16. - https://www.blueletterbible.org/Bibl...Jdg&c=16&t=KJB

    Just as Samson, representing Jesus as deliverer, was born specially, by promise from God, to a woman which could not bare, and he was to be filled with the Holy Ghost, and to be dedicated to the Lord from birth to death, and to be deliverer of the people [Judges 13 KJB].

    Jesus, a holy child, was born of the virgin Mary, by Holy Ghost, to be dedicated to the Lord forever [Luke 1:35; Acts 4:27,30 KJB], and to be the Saviour and deliverer of all people, who would accept the sacrifice [Matthew 1:21; Acts 13:23; Romans 11:26, etc KJB].​

    Just as Samson, representing Jesus as deliverer, was attempted to be taken many times by his enemies, but could not be until betrayed by a woman [harlot] he loved, for silver [Judges 16:5,18; KJB even as the type of Christ, Joseph was sold/betrayed by Juda for silver [Genesis 37:27,28 KJB]], into the hands of his enemies as a slave, even though he had “shewed [her] all his heart” [Judges 16:18 KJB].

    Jesus, also could not be taken, until his appropriate time [Daniel 9:24-27 KJB, in the Year AD 31, in the First Month, Abib/Nisan, on the 14th Day of the Month, being the 6th Day of the week [aka Friday, preparation day], dying at the 9th hour [roughly 3 PM, the time of the evening Sacrifice], to enter into the 7th Day the Sabbath rest of Creation/Redemption] betrayed by a woman [the harlot Church, physical Israel, even at the hands of Judas], for silver [Zechariah 11:12,13; Matthew 26:15, 27:3 KJB], into the hands of the enemy, for the price of a slave [Matthew 27:9 KJB], even though God had revealed all His heart in Christ Jesus to the world.​

    Just as Samson, representing Jesus as deliverer, carried “the bar” of the “gate” [the place of judgment], even the great weight, across his “shoulders”, up to the top of a “hill” [Judges 16:3 KJB].

    Jesus, also carried the cross [John 19:17 KJB], after a manner [Simon of Cyrene, being an example for us, to take up that Cross and bear it for Jesus; Matthew 16:24; Mark 8:34; Luke 9:23 KJB], up to the hill of Golgotha [Matthew 27:33; Mark 15:22; John 19:17 KJB], the place of the Skull [the very place of the mind/heart of man; even Calvary; Luke 23:33 KJB], bearing the weight of the not merely the cross, but the sins of the whole world [Isaiah 63:9 KJB], the government and judgment should be upon his shoulders [Isaiah 9:6, 22:22 KJB].​

    Just as Samson, representing Jesus as deliverer, was blinded [Judges 16:21 KJB], that he could not see, and was ill-treated and mocked of his enemies [Judges 16:25 KJB], the LORD being departing from him [Judges 16:20 KJB].

    Jesus, also was blind-folded [Luke 22:64 KJB], that he could not see, and was ill-treated and mocked of his enemies [Job 12:4; Matthew 27:29,31; Mark 15:20; Luke 23:11,36 KJB], apparently forsaken of God [Psalms 22:1; Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34 KJB].​

    Just as Samson, representing Jesus as deliverer, then in the last moments of his life, was taken out, placed between two pillars [Judges 16:25 KJB] and leaned upon them with his hands outstretched, to the right and to the left [Judges 16:29 KJB], east and west, praying [Judges 16:28 KJB], and dying with the enemies [Judges 16:30 KJB], destroyed the Temple [Judges 16:30 KJB], slaying his enemies more in his death, than in his life.

    Jesus, also then was placed between two persons, one of the Right hand, the other on the left [Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:33; John 19:18 KJB]. Jesus said that He would destroy the Temple [John 2:19 KJB], by which he slays in/by his death the enmity between God and mankind [Genesis 3:15; Ephesians 2;16, etc KJB], forever magnifying the Law of God, making it honourable [Isaiah 42:21 KJB], demonstrating its eternality. His hands and arms outstretched, with a “nail” [“as a nail in a sure place”; Isaiah 22:23,25 KJB; thus plural "nails"] in each hand, whose “bones were out of joint”, even “as far as the east is from the west” to save and deliver, even unto a gainsaying people.​

    There are many other examples, in type. I will recommend a book which covers a lot of them [Shadows of Light; Seeing Jesus In All The Bible; by Pastor Doug Batchelor] - Shadows of Light

    There are many historical evidences which reveal that Jesus died not merely upon a 'stake', but truly a stake with a cross beam, for even the sources which the Watch Tower and Tract society uses, demonstrates this.

    For example, the Watch Tower and Tract Society, cites Justus Lipsius' work “De Cruce Liber Primus” [1] and cite* merely one small section of the work, pointing to a possible type of crucifixion that was historically known, this being the Crux Simplex, Page 19, seen here - http://brooklyn.org.pl/00000003.gif or here - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Justus_Lipsius_Crux_Simplex_1629.jpg , which is also seen in a more modern rendition, in the WTS material “What does the Bible really Teach?”, Page 52 [to which I had been given a copy of from a Jehovah's Witness, whom I knew briefly,and fully read], and also may be seen here - http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/97/bh_E.pdf

    Yet Justus Lipsius work cites many types of crucifixions, that were historically known and used, not simply the one pointed out by the WTS, and he also does not point to the Crux Simplex as the one Jesus was crucified upon, but rather to another, being one with a cross beam, as may be seen here [Begin on Scanned Pages 1157-1234] - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3

    - Specifically see Pages:

    Page 1174 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1176 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1177 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1179 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1182 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1203 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1216 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1218 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1220 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1222 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1223 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3

    * “... the Watchtower's 1985 Kingdom Interlinear Translation, of which the above woodcut is shown as an illustration:

    "`Cross'" is only a later meaning of crux. A single stake for impalement of a criminal was called in Latin crux simplex. One such instrument of torture is illustrated by Justus Lipsius (1547-1606) in his book De cruce libri tres, Antwerp, 1629, p. 19, which we here present. ... Crux simplex illustrated."”
    - [1]

    [and for more on that work, see here] - Jesus is Jehovah!: Justus Lipsius' De Cruce Liber Tres

    Looking at the Scriptural evidences again, we can see that the very word “tree” in Deuteronomy 21:22,23 KJB, as cited before, and requoted in the New Testament by Luke, Paul [Acts 5:30, 10:39, 13:29; Galatians 3:13, etc KJB], and Peter [1 Peter 2:24 KJB], does indeed refer to “tree”, as we find the same word used in Genesis 1:11 KJB.

    This is the first time that this word is used, and the first use, in Scripture, generally defines the meaning. In the word secondary uses, it also can mean that “wood”, or “sticks”, etc which come from the “tree”, and we can know also, from the very fact that in the beginning, there was no items separate from trees like lumber, for there was no need, in the Garden of Eden.

    Therefore, anything which came from the “tree” is simply derivative of it. The last use in the Scripture of the Greek equivalent, also refers to a literal “tree”, even the “tree of life”, again found in the Garden. This is one of the principles of Scripture. First and Last usages, even the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending...

    The “tree of life” in the Beginning, the “tree of life” in the ending, and the “tree” of “Life” in the center, the Cross of Jesus and Him Crucified, spreading its saving shadow and cover, from the heat and fiery fury of the wrath of God to come.

    Even the Commandments of God dealing with the Vertical and Horizontal relationships, God to Man or Man to God, and the other Man to Man. In transgression of His Holy Law, mankind not only became separated from God, they also became disunified from one another.

    Moses [an Hebrew [Exodus 2:11 KJB], of the tribe of Levi, not Judah; Exodus 2:1; 1 Chronicles 23:14 KJB] wrote the very words of Genesis 1:1-31, 2:1-4 [etc.], and more specificially that of Genesis 1:1, and 2:4, yes/no?

    Moses, inspired of God [2 Peter 1:21 KJB], wrote the name of God, in Genesis 2:4, as "יהוה" [trans. lit. YHVH], and in Genesis 1:1, the words used were "אלהים את ... ואת", yes/no?

    Therefore, the question is concerned with the specific words, in either ancient Hebrew pictograph and/or modern Hebrew script. For instance, both the Mesha Stele [for the YHVH] - link, and the Gezer Calendar [for some ancient script] - link, and so, consider the ancient paleo Hebrew script here - link

    Thus, I am interested in the specific words themselves.

    For instance, the name of God, given to Moses, "יהוה" [trans. lit. YHVH], given some 6528 times in the OT, in paleo Hebrew is:

    [​IMG]

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-s3F4A924J...As4/PFmArO3vXx0/s1600/YHWH_Picto-Hebrew_2.jpg

    which can mean, "Behold", "the hand", Behold", "the nail [print]", see John 20:27 KJB:

    It can also mean a covenant between two, by sacrifice/piercing.

    Even more than this, the words in Genesis 1:1, Hebrew - בראשׁית ברא אלהים את השׁמים ואת הארץ׃, reveal two untranslated words, the Aleph, Tau, and the Vau, Aleph, Tau, which is the nail piercing the sacrifice to the cross, in Paleo Hebrew, the very "sign" suspended between the words "Heaven" and "Earth":

    See for yourself - Alpha [sacrifice], Tau [Cross], Vau [pierced by the Nail] between Heaven and Earth

    http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_One/Pictograms/pictograms.html

    [​IMG]

    https://pastorarhonda.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/aleph-tav.png

    Yeshua and the Hebrew Alphabet

    It is WRIT LARGE for all the universe to see and understand, for those who love the Truth. Jesus said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify about me." [John 5:39 KJB] [This statement by Jesus, is easily tested, and shown to be absolutely true, from beginning to end, my next questions will concern these things.]
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
  11. DW1980

    DW1980 Don Supporter

    520
    +527
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Engaged
    UK - SNP
    Sorry to jump in but...

    @The7thColporteur this seems a bit harsh to me. You're asking someone, no you invited someone, (@Ratiocination in this case) to spend time explaining something, researching, writing long posts, which look to me like they have taken some time to write (unlike other JW posts I have seen, these don't appear to be copy and paste jobs from the WT). Then when you are asked a question, you refuse to explain, and don't allow Ratiocination to ask for clarification or feedback? How is he (assuming he...) to know you have correctly understood the points? The follow up questions were perfectly legitimate.

    I would walk away from this too, and I am reasonably Biblically literate!

    Your OP also said "I will generally not be engaging with those which are non-Jehovah's Witnesses" which strongly suggests dialogue (most people would assume that by "engaging" you mean "talk with" not take an answer, "refute" it and move on).

    Where did @Ratiocination agree that he should try to prove to you that Jehovah's Witnesses are not afraid to answer questions? He was trying to answer your questions and talk to you. YOU shut the conversation down. Whether it's your intention or not, this comes across as downright rude. You are the stereotypical "Christian at the door" who just asserts "I know I am right" and shuts the door. It's you who appears afraid to answer questions.

    Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. (1 Peter 3:15)
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
  12. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +237
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    See OP. Bye.
     
  13. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    961
    +24
    Jehovahs Witness
    Private
    This is quite unfair. I've been engaging with you from the outset!
     
  14. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    961
    +24
    Jehovahs Witness
    Private
    You ask a question, then proceed to paste in way too much of your pre-studied information... Why is this not an invitation to discourse? You don't want questions answered, you clearly want debate.

    We all used to do this when we were first involved in debating and online discussion, as we mature we realise that discourse is more appropriate. You'll get there i'm sure...
     
  15. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +237
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    Questions 001, had some left over questions to address, and I am still waiting for links to the original response. Also Questions 002 and 003 are still on the table, unaddressed at the moment [looking like going on forever, but I have hope still...].

    The OP - I am asking the questions [if you want to ask questions, please feel free to start your own thread, and I may come over]. If you do not like the present format of this thread, no one has to participate, but know that I was "straight down the middle" [1] with you from the OP. When I said "engage", it means just what the OP gave. I ask.

    I would love for you to remain.
     
  16. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    961
    +24
    Jehovahs Witness
    Private
    I can't start my own thread here, not Christian enough!
    What do I get from this thread?
    So far the format is more than "you ask";
    More like 1) You ask [and pre-rebut] 2) I answer 3) You rebut some more 4) Move on to next question. This format sucks!
     
  17. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    961
    +24
    Jehovahs Witness
    Private
    The7th...

    And I did address those questions, in the reply that you've completely ignored.
     
  18. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +237
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    I was unaware of that, apologies, as it was not meant to mock at you in any way.

    You get to answer questions, just like a teacher would. I really would like to get to the prophecies [especially two specific citations in Pay Attention to Daniels Prophecy, WTS], but first things first.

    Indeed, that is what the OP plainly states, and I even highlighted the "I" originally.

    Again, I never stated that I would go back and forth. I have already responded to questions which you have asked, even in charity [ps. you ought to look at Luke 2:11 KJB again, and ask yourself who is saying what, at what time, and it has nothing to do with the "Queen" [1] at her birth; terrible attempt at a parallel, apples/carob pie]. I did state I would "ask". Nothing stated I could not present evidence opposed to the answers which are given to my questions if i felt that it was necessary to do so. This thread is not a Jehovah's Witness pulpit, Kingdom Hall, etc. That might seem "unfair" [1] to you. Theologically, we are at war, though Christ Jesus died for you as he did for me. I do not plan to go by the standard WTS playbook.

    That was not part of the OP. OP is I ask questions. You may answer my questions as thoroughly as you know how with citations [I am still waiting for those you know, as you said, "... I need to be at my other computer to give references, I'll try and fill in as we go along ..." [1]]

    I will rebut any and all error as needed. Again, my prerogative, my OP. The rules are not changing. This is so the Thread stays where I need it to stay - on topic I am asking about at any given time.

    Indeed, I felt Question 001 was basically answered, and could move to the next.

    The WTS, and those members of it, claim to be the True religion/faith. All of its members then should have no issue then with answering any/all questions, seeing as they would have all the true answers, if they were indeed the true religion/faith. They, in so declaring to be the true religion/faith, have set themselves up as the teachers. So be it then. Teacher, I have questions ... [ie. I want you to think about what I am asking].
     
  19. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    961
    +24
    Jehovahs Witness
    Private
    So if you want the date of the creation of the physical universe, then I wasn’t there, so I’d be guessing! I will say that the bible needn’t be understood literally at this point for a few key reasons;

    1) These “days” would need to overlap in a few places as certain forms of life cannot exist without the other; for example, Fruit Trees and Insects. I’m not dogmatic about this point really as I’m sure if God wanted to create in a strict non-overlapping sequence then he most certainly could. My point is that Genesis was written to nomadic tribesmen and Taxonomists alike who would have asked the same things with their knowledge of germination and propagation etc. A non-overlapping sequence isn’t necessary in Genesis chapter 1 Anyway. I realize that if you accept 24 periods then this point is moot [as a fruit tree can live for a few days without insects etc], but I’d like your thoughts/confirmation on this.

    2) Length - What “Day” are we in now, and how long is it? You say that a view that makes the “days” in Genesis 1 longer than 24 hours messes up the 7th day, I would like to know what you mean by that? This is supposed to be an education for me as well, and I’m interested in opposing views on this with specifics as to why you believe those views.

    *** it-1 p. 545 Creation ***

    Length of Creative Days. The Bible does not specify the length of each of the creative periods. Yet all six of them have ended, it being said with respect to the sixth day (as in the case of each of the preceding five days): “And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a sixth day.” (Ge 1:31) However, this statement is not made regarding the seventh day, on which God proceeded to rest, indicating that it continued. (Ge 2:1-3) Also, more than 4,000 years after the seventh day, or God’s rest day, commenced, Paul indicated that it was still in progress. At Hebrews 4:1-11 he referred to the earlier words of David (Ps 95:7, 8, 11) and to Genesis 2:2 and urged: “Let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest.” By the apostle’s time, the seventh day had been continuing for thousands of years and had not yet ended. The Thousand Year Reign of Jesus Christ, who is Scripturally identified as “Lord of the sabbath” (Mt 12:8), is evidently part of the great sabbath, God’s rest day. (Re 20:1-6) This would indicate the passing of thousands of years from the commencement of God’s rest day to its end. The week of days set forth at Genesis 1:3 to 2:3, the last of which is a sabbath, seems to parallel the week into which the Israelites divided their time, observing a sabbath on the seventh day thereof, in keeping with the divine will. (Ex 20:8-11) And, since the seventh day has been continuing for thousands of years, it may reasonably be concluded that each of the six creative periods, or days, was at least thousands of years in length.

    That a day can be longer than 24 hours is indicated by Genesis 2:4, which speaks of all the creative periods as one “day.” Also indicative of this is Peter’s inspired observation that “one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.” (2Pe 3:8) Ascribing not just 24 hours but a longer period of time, thousands of years, to each of the creative days better harmonizes with the evidence found in the earth itself.
    ***
    There are a few uses of the term “day” in Genesis 1-2 that are not literal 24hour periods.

    (Genesis 2:17) 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

    Eve didn’t die within 24 hours of eating the fruit…

    And;

    (Genesis 2:4) 4 This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.

    So Genesis 2:4 seems to sum up all creative “days” into one “day”, the Day of Creation.

    Additionally the first "day" doesn't necessarily begin with "in the Beginning", it could very well start from verse 3 "And God said...", which would/could add eons of time prior to the six creative days.

    The above *quotation* notes the bible’s comments on the 7th day as continuing to this day. This is why it would be interesting to get your thoughts on this?

    3) It seems Adam’s Creation was 4026 B.C.E. according to bible chronology and using a pivotal date of 537 for the release of the Jews from Babylon [I’d like to know why you disagree with this date]. The young lady you spoke to must have thought this is what you meant, 1656 years prior to the flood, up to the 6th creative day as you suspected.

    *** si pp. 286-287 pars. 12-13 Study Number 3—Measuring Events in the Stream of Time ***

    12 From 2370 B.C.E. to 4026 B.C.E. Going still farther back in the stream of time, we find that the Bible dates the period from the Deluge all the way to Adam’s creation. This is determined by Genesis 5:3-29 and 7:6, 11. The time count is summarized below:

    From Adam’s creation to

    the birth of Seth 130 years
    Then to the birth of Enosh 105
    To the birth of Kenan 90
    To the birth of Mahalalel 70
    To the birth of Jared 65
    To the birth of Enoch 162
    To the birth of Methuselah 65
    To the birth of Lamech 187
    To the birth of Noah 182
    To the Deluge 600

    Total 1,656 years

    Adding 1,656 years to our previous date of 2370 B.C.E., we arrive at 4026 B.C.E. for the creation of Adam, perhaps in the fall, since it is in the fall that the year began on the most ancient calendars.

    13 Of what significance is this today? The first edition of this book, published in 1963, stated: “Does this mean, then, that by 1963 we had progressed 5,988 years into the ‘day’ on which Jehovah ‘has been resting from all his work’? (Gen. 2:3) No, for the creation of Adam does not correspond with the beginning of Jehovah’s rest day. Following Adam’s creation, and still within the sixth creative day, Jehovah appears to have been forming further animal and bird creations. Also, he had Adam name the animals, which would take some time, and he proceeded to create Eve. (Gen. 2:18-22; see also NW, 1953 Ed., footnote on vs. 19) Whatever time elapsed between Adam’s creation and the end of the ‘sixth day’ must be subtracted from the 5,988 years in order to give the actual length of time from the beginning of the ‘seventh day’ until [1963]. It does no good to use Bible chronology for speculating on dates that are still future in the stream of time.—Matt. 24:36.”

    ***

    I will say that your questions so far, including 003 aren't things I would consider vital knowledge for our salvation. The age of the Earth is irrelevant compared to the issue of Jehovah's sovereignty. It's because of this fact that I don't put much importance into the age of the Earth, to me it could very well be billions of years old, it makes no difference to the message from God.

    Regards
     
  20. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    961
    +24
    Jehovahs Witness
    Private
    And usually in a teaching environment you get to ask questions of your students to see if they have grasped the point.

    How much would you like to pay me for my time here?
     
Loading...