questions from a goy

[chilehed]

I've heard that somewhere in the Talmud or the Mishna there is some discussion of two Messiahs, moshiach ben Joseph and moshiach ben David. Can someone provide me with the exact references and perhaps some sources of additional commentary?



Also, regarding Miriam, mother of our Lord:
In discussions about the matter of her perpetual virginity, I've heard it said that in ancient Israel there were women who pledged themselves to virginity in the service of the Lord. What can you tell me about this?

Thanks.

 

[BenTsion]

Chilehed,
Shalom!
I am unaware of any reference in Talmud to the existence of two Messiahs. But, since I'm not very acquainted with the Talmud, I'll let others answer that one. I do know that the Essenes believed there would be two Messiahs. One who would be a political leader and another one that would be a priest. Rav. Sha'ul offered the answer to this issue.

As for celibacy, it is not and has never been a part of Jewish culture. I am not debating the Catholic dogma itself, but it is impossible to justify it through Jewish culture. Because of the mitzvot of marriage and procreation found in the Torah, Jewish women found it DISGRACEFUL not to be married and not being able to bear a child. I doubt that anyone of them would willfully embrace celibacy.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

 

[simchat_torah]

I have posted very lengthy references to the dual messiah theory and Rabbinic refrences. I'll be happy to post them once again... just let me find the quotes I've already researched....

be back in a few.
-Yafet.

 

[simchat_torah]

More than one Moshiach, There shall be two
The Rabbi's have always recognized an apparent conflict between certain Messianic passages. For example:

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R. Alexandri said: Rabbi Joshua opposed two verses:
It is written:
And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds
of heaven. (Dan. 7:13)
Whilst it is written: [behold, your king comes to you...] lowly, and riding upon an ***! (Zech. 9:9)
(b.San. 98a)
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The Rabbinic "two Messiah" theory was one of several answers that the Rabbis found for these contradictions.

Rabbi Dosa (who lived around 250 CE) was a chief advocate of the two Messiah theory. The Talmud records that he taught regarding Zech. 12:10:

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What is the cause of the mourning [of Zech. 12:12]--... It is well according to him who explains that the cause is the slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph, since that well agrees with the Scriptural verse:
And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, And they shall mourn for him as one mourns for his only son. (Zech. 12:10) (b. Sukkot 52a)
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Yet another tell us that these two messiahs are in fact one:

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Like Moses, Messiah will be revealed, then hidden, then revealed again. (Bamidbar Rabbah 11:2)
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Moshiach ben Yosef:

Ephraim Messiah in Rabbinic literature is a Midrash in which the Messiah is being warned by G-d of what awaits him:

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Their sins will be upon you like a yoke of iron. They will choke your spirit. Because of their sins, Your tongue will cleave to the roof of your mouth.
Do you accept this? If not, I will remove the decree from you. The Messiah replies: "Master of the worlds, how long will this last?
G-d replies: "Ephraim, my true Messiah, ever since the six days of creation you have taken this ordeal upon yourself. At this moment, your pain is my pain"
Messiah replies: "Master of the worlds, I accept this with gladness in my soul, and joy in my heart, so that not a single one of the House of Israel should perish. Not only for those alive, but also the dead. It is enough that the servant be like the Master.
(Midresh Pesqita Rabbah 36)
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We can see clearly that "normative" jewish theology has followed a pattern of two messiahs, a suffering servant and a reigning king. Later it was adapted that the two would actually be one single messiah come twice.

I'll continue to bring more on this subject as time goes on.

Enjoy!
Yafet.

 

[simchat_torah]

The following is taken from the Shottenstein Talmud and involves a discussion of Zechariah 12:12:

The Gemara turns it attention to the verse that has just been cited:


What is the nature of this eulogy that the verse describes?


The Gemara replies:


R'Dosa and the Rabbis disagreed about it. One said that the eulogy will be for the Messiah decended from the tribe of Joseph who will have been killed in battle - while one said that it will be for the evil inclination that will have been "killed", i.e. eradicated, at that future time.


The Gemara questions the second view:


It is understandable according to the one who said that the eulogy will be for the Messiah descended from Joseph who will have been killed; that is why the mourning will be so bitter, as it is written:

They will look toward me, the one they have stabbed; they will mourn over him
as one mourns over an only [child] etc.

The death of God's annointed is certainly cause for great grief. But according to the one who said that the eulogy will be for the evil inclination who will have been killed, does that warrant a eulogy? On the contrary, it warrants a celebration! So why will they weep?


The Gemara answers:


It is as R' Yehudah expounded: In the future time, the Holy One, Blessed is He, will bring the evil inclination and slaughter it in the pressence of the righteous and in the presence of the wicked. To the righteous the evil inclination will appear like a high mountain that can hardly be scaled, and to the wicked it will appear like a strand of hair that can easily be snapped. These will weep and these too will weep. The righteous will weep and say: "How were we able to overcome such a high mountain?" And the wicked will weep and say: "How were we not able to overcome this strand of hair?" And so too, the Holy One, Blessed is He, will wonder with them, as it says: "Thus said Hashem, Lord of Hosts: As it will be wondrous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, so will it be wondrous in my eyes etc."


The Gemara cites a related teaching:


R' Assi said: Regarding the evil inclination: initially it resembles a spider's thread, but ultimately it resembles a cart rope. As it says: Woe unto those who draw iniquity with cords of nothingness and sin as with a cart rope. What begins as cords of nothingness ultimately develops into cart ropes!


The Gemara cites a Baraisa which relates to the death of the Messiah
descended from Joseph:


The Rabbis taught in a Baraisa: THE HOLY ONE, BLESSED IS HE, WILL SAY TO THE MESSIAH DESCENDED FROM DAVID (WHO WILL BE REVEALED, we pray, SPEEDILY IN OUR DAY): ASK A BOON OF ME AND I WILL GRANT IT TO YOU. AS IT SAYS: I SHALL PROCLAIM IT THAT IT SHOULD BE INSCRIBED AS A REMEMBRANCE etc...I HAVE
BEGOTTEN YOU THIS DAY. ASK OF ME AND I WILL GIVE NATIONS FOR YOUR INHERITANCE...BUT HAVING SEEN THAT THE MESSIAH DESCENDED FROM JOSEPH WAS KILLED, HE [THE MESSIAH DESCENDED OF DAVID] WILL SAY TO HIM: MASTER OF THE WORLD, I ASK YOU FOR NOTHING BUT LIFE itself. [GOD] WILL ANSWER HIM: As for LIFE, BEFORE YOU SAID IT YOUR FATHER DAVID ALREADY PROPHESIED ABOUT IT and his prayer that you should live has already GRANTED IT TO HIM etc.


The Gemara returns to the subject of the evil inclination:


Rav Avira expounded and others say it was R' Yehudah ben Levi: The evil
inclination has seven names. The Holy One, Blessed is He, called it "evil" as it says: for the inclination of Man's heart is evil from his youth. Moses called it "uncircumcized" as it says: And you shall circumcize the foreskin of your heart, i.e. you shall remove the evil inclination from your heart. David called it "impure" as it says: A pure heart create for me O God, i.e. a heart pure of the evil inclination, implying that there is such a thing as an impure heart, for the presence of the evil inclination is an impurity. Solomon called it "the enemy" as it says: If your enemy is hungry, feed him bread; and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink, for you will be heaping coals on his head, and Hashem will reward you.


The Gemara adds a homiletic interpretation of the conclusion of this verse:


Do not read the conclusion of the verse: Hashem will reward you (y'shalem lach), but, rather, Hashem will pacify him [the evil inclination] for you (yashlimenu lach).


The Gemara continues:


Isaiah called it "a stumbling block", as it says: Pave! Pave! Clear a road! Remove the stumbling block from My people's path. Ezekiel called it "a stone", as it says: and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. Joel called it "the hidden one", as it says: And I will distance the hidden one from you.


The Gemara elaborates on this verse, which describes the ultimate destruction
of the evil inclination:


The Rabbis taught in a Baraisa: AND I WILL DISTANCE THE HIDDEN ONE FROM YOU. THIS refers to the EVIL INCLINATION WHICH IS HIDDEN AND LURKS IN MAN'S HEART. AND I WILL BANISH HIM TO AN ARID AND DESOLATE LAND, that is, TO A PLACE WHERE THERE ARE NO PEOPLE FOR HIM TO INCITE. HIS FACE TO THE FIRST SEA, FOR HE [the evil inclination] LAID HIS EYES ON THE FIRST TEMPLE AND
DESTROYED IT. AND KILLED THE TORAH SCHOLARS THAT WERE IN IT. AND HIS END TO THE LAST SEA, FOR HE LAID HIS EYES ON THE SECOND TEMPLE AND DESTROYED IT, AND KILLED THE TORAH SCHOLARS THAT WERE IN IT. AND HIS FOUL ODOR WILL RISE, this
stench comes from his perversiveness, FOR HE LEAVES THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD AND INCITES THE ENEMIES OF ISRAEL to sin.


The Gemara expounds the final phrase of the verse:
FOR HE HAS DONE GREATLY. Abaye said: This means that he incites Torah scholars above all others. As in the following episode: For Abaye once overheard a certain man say to a certain woman, "Let us rise early and set out together on our way." Thereupon, Abaye said to himself: I will follow behind them in order to keep them from transgression. He followed behind them for a distance of three parsahs in a meadow. When they reached a crossroads and took leave of one another, {Abaye} heard them say cordially to each other: Our paths lead far apart, so we cannot travel any further together, but the company would have been pleasant had we been able to do so. Upon seeing this, Abaye said to himself: Were it my enemy who made the journey with this woman, he would have been unable to restran himself from sin. He went and leaned against a door bolt and was despondent until a certain old man came and taught him: Whoever is greater than his fellow, his evil inclination is greater than his fellow's as well.

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The following is Footnote 1 from the Shottenstein Talmud (Succah 52a):

Zechariah 12:12


This verse comes from Zechariah's prophetic protrayal of the war of Gog and Magog, and the mournful eulogies that will attend the death of the Messiah from the tribe of Joseph, whose advent will precede that of the Messiah, son of David, and who will be killed in that war. From the verse it is evident that even at such a sorrowful time men and women shall gather separately (Rashi).[At the time of the future redemption, the Messiah descended from Joseph will appear first to save the Jewish people.However, he will be killed during the war of Gog and Magog, and the full redemption will be brought about solely through the Messiah descended from David (see Maharsha; see also Targum Yonasan to Exodus 40:11; Bamidbar Rabbah 14:1; Rav Saadiah Gaon, Emunos V'Dei'os 8:5; Ramban, Commentary to Exodus 17:9 and to Song of Songs 8:13; Maharal, Netzach Yisrael 36). It should be noted that, according to Ramchal (Kinas Hashem Tzevaos, Bnei Brak 1980), based on Zohar, the decree of the death of the Messiah descended from Joseph has been nullified. According to Shnei Lchos HaBris (beis David 1:51), the period of the Messiah descended from Joseph will include the ingathering of the Exiles and the rebuilding of the Temple, but not a subverting of the natural order; death and sin will continue to exist. But the period of the Messiah descended from David will usher in a new natural order, in which death and sin will have no place.]

 

[simchat_torah]

The following is from Midrash Pesiqta Rabba 36 involving a conversation between HaShem and Moshiach Ben Yosef:

Their sins will be upon you like a yoke of iron. They will choke your spirit. Because of their sins, your tongue will cleave to the roof of your mouth. Do you accept this? If not, I will remove the decree from you.

Master of the worlds, how long will this last?

Ephraim, my true Messiah, ever since the six days of creation you have taken this ordeal upon yourself. At this moment, your pain is my pain.

Master of the worlds, accept this with gladness in my soul, and joy in my heart, so that not a single one of the house of Israel should perish. Not only for those alive, but also the dead. It is enough that the servant be like the Master.


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Midrash Pesiqta Rabbati Chapter 27 describes Moshiach Ben Yosef's triumph and the glory which he receives as a due reward for his humiliation and suffering on behalf of Israel.
It is based on Isaiah 41:10:

"The fathers of the world (the patriarchs) will rise again in the month of Nisan and will say to him, Ephraim, our righteous Messiah, though we are your fathers, yet you are greater than we, because you have borne the sins of our children, and hard and evil measure has passed upon you, such as has not been passed either upon those before or upon those after. And you have been for laughter and derision to the nations for the sake of Israel, and you have dwelled in darkness and in gloominess, and your eyes have not seen light, and your skin was cleaving to your bones, and your body was dry as wood, and your eyes were darkened through fasting, and your strength was dried up like a potsherd. And all this on account of the sins of our children. Is it your pleasure that our sons should enjoy the good things which the Holy One, blessed be He, has poured out so abundantly upon Israel? Or, perhaps, on account of the anguish which you have suffered so much for them, and because they have chained you in the prison house (i.e., this would indicate that he also suffered at the hands of his own people), perhaps you are not pleased with them?"He says to them, Fathers of the world, whatever I have done I have done only for your sakes, and for the sake of your children, for the sake of your honor and that of your children, and that they may enjoy the goodness which the Holy One, blessed be He, has poured out over Israel. Then the fathers say to him, Ephraim, our righteous Messiah, let your mind be at rest, as you have put the mind of your Maker at rest and also our mind."


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"Rabbi Simeon, the son of Rabbi Pasi, said:
In that hour the Holy One, blessed be He, exalts the Messiah to the heaven of heavens, and spreads over him the splendor of His glory. . . And the Holy One says: You righteous ones of the world, Ephraim, the Messiah of My righteousness, has not yet received even one half for all he has suffered. . ."

---Midrash Pesiqta Rabbati 27

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R. Berekiah said in the name of R. Isaac: As it is written, And the Lord showed me four craftsmen (Zech. II, 3), namely, Elijah, the Messiah, Melchizedek, and the War Messiah.
[Lit.,the priest anointed for war', an expression originally applied to the priest who accompanied the troops. Cf. Suk. 52a, where instead of ' War Messiah ' we have ' Messiah son of Joseph'. The two are probably identical, Messiah the son of Joseph being regarded as the forerunner of the Messiah during the wars that will precede his advent.]

---Song of Songs Rabbah 2:33

 

[simchat_torah]

..."the sceptre shall not depart from Judah nor the ruler's staff from between his feet", "the sceptre" referring to the Messiah of the house of Judah, and "the staff" to the Messiah of the house of Joseph.
---Zohar, Volume 1, Page 25b

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"Mysteries of R. Shim'on ben Yohai (Midrash, date uncertain):
And Armilaus will join battle with Messiah, the son of Ephraim, in the East gate . . .; and Messiah, the son of Ephraim, will die there, and Israel will mourn for him. And afterwards the Holy One will reveal to them Messiah, the son of David, whom Israel will desire to stone, saying, Thou speakest falsely; already is the Messiah slain, and there is non other Messiah to stand up (after him): and so they will despise him, as it is written, "Despised and forlorn of men;" but he will turn and hide himself from them, according to the words, "Like one hiding his face from us."

---The Suffering Servant of Isaiah
By Driver and Neubauer
Page 32

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This is also hinted at in the verse "the sceptre shall not depart from Judah nor the ruler's staff from between his feet", "the sceptre" referring to the Messiah of the house of Judah, and "the staff" to the Messiah of the house of Joseph. "Until Shiloh cometh": this is Moses, the numerical value of the two names Shiloh and Moses being the same.
---Zohar, Volume 1, Page 25b

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==========================================

The Rabbis maintained: OX is an allusion to the one anointed for battle,2 as it says, His firstling bullock, majesty is his (Deut. XXXIII, 17)3; *** refers to the royal Messiah, for it says of him, Lowly, and riding upon an *** (Zech. IX, 9); FLOCKS refers to Israel, as it says, And ye are My sheep, the sheep of My pasture (Ezek. XXXIV, 31);
AND MEN-SERVANTS AND MAID-SERVANTS [likewise alludes to Israel, as it says], Behold, as the eyes of the servants unto the hand of their master (Ps. CXXIII, 2).THAT I MAY FIND FAVOUR [GRACE]-as it says, Be gracious unto us (ib. 3).

(2) The Messiah who would conduct the final war; according to tradition he would be descended from Joseph, and would be the forerunner of the real Messiah, descended from David.
(3) This refers to Joseph, and is understood to allude to the Messiah descended from him.

---Genesis Rabbah 75:6

 

[simchat_torah]

R. Johanan also said: The son of David will come only in a generation that is either altogether righteous or altogether wicked. 'in a generation that is altogether righteous,' as it is written, Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever. 'Or altogether wicked,' as it is written, And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor; and it is [elsewhere] written, For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it.
---Talmud, Sanhedrin 98a
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Our Rabbis taught: in the seven year cycle at the end of which the son of David will come-in the first year, this verse will be fulfilled: And I will cause it to rain upon one city and cause it not to rain upon another city; (2) in the second, the arrows of hunger will be sent forth; (3) in the third, a great famine, in the course of which men, women, and children, pious men and saints (4) will die, and the Torah will be forgotten by its students; in the fourth, partial plenty; (5) in the fifth, great plenty, when men will eat, drink and rejoice, and the Torah will return to its disciples; in the sixth, [Heavenly] sounds; (6) in the seventh, wars; and at the conclusion of the septennate the son of David will come.

(2) ibid. IV, 7.
(3) I.e., not actual famine, but the first signs thereof, no one being completely satisfied.
(4) Lit., 'men on whose behalf miracles occur.' - Jast.
(5) Lit., 'plenty and no plenty'.
(6) Either Heavenly voices announcing the advent of Mashiach, or the blasts of the great Shofar; cf. Yeshayahu (Isa.) 27:13.

---Talmud, Sanhedrin 97a

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"Raba replied: Because they [Yisra'el] are destined to be redeemed in the seventh year [of the coming of the Messiah], (22) therefore the mention of redemption was placed in the seventh blessing. The Master said: "In the sixth year [of Messianic septenary], sounds will be heard; in the seventh, there will be wars, and at the end of the seventh, the Son of David will come. Wars are the beginning of Redemption."
---Talmud, Megila 17b

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"And this is for you the sign [of the coming of the Mashiach]: that you see a septenary which begins with rain; in the second year, arrows of famine are sent out; in the third, there is great famine; and in the fourth - neither hunger nor plenty; in the sixth - great plenty, and a star will grow from the east with a staff on its head, and that is the star of Yisra'el...and if it lights up, it is for the benefit of Yisra'el, and then will sprout up Mashiach ben David. And this is the sign for you: When you see the eastern Nero (i.e., emperor) in Damascus has fallen, and the kingdom of the Children of the East has fallen, then will salvation sprout up for Yisra'el, and Mashiach ben David will come, and they will ascend to Yerushalayim and enjoy it...May Elohim in His mercy send us the Redeemer rapidly in our days, Amen."
---Nistarot R. Shim'on ben
Yohai, BhM 3:82

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This is also hinted at in the verse "the sceptre shall not depart from Judah nor the ruler's staff from between his feet", "the sceptre" referring to the Messiah of the house of Judah, and "the staff" to the Messiah of the house of Joseph. "Until Shiloh cometh": this is Moses, the numerical value of the two names Shiloh and Moses being the same.
---Zohar, Volume 1, Page 25b
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==========================================

Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O Lord,' wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.]8 it has been taught, R. Judah said: in the generation when the son of David comes, the house of assembly9 will be for harlots, Galilee in ruins, Gablan lie desolate,10 the border inhabitants11 wander about from city to city, receiving no hospitality, the wisdom of scribes in disfavour, God-fearing men despised, people12 be dog-faced,13 and truth entirely lacking, as it is written, Yea, truth faileth, and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey.14 What is meant by 'yea, truth faileth [ne'edereth15 ]'? The Scholars of the School of Rab16 said: This teaches that it will split up into separate groups17 and depart.18 What is the meaning of 'and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey [mishtollel19 ]'? The School of R. Shila said: He who departs from evil will be dubbed a fool by his fellow-men.20

(8) Ps. LXXXIX, 52.
(9) Where scholars assemble.
(10) [Gaulan, E. of the Sea of Galilee and the upper Jordan].
(11) The Jews living by the borders of Palestine. ,hzd habt the men of (the Hall of) Hewn Stones, I.e., the Sanhedrin.
(12) Lit., 'the face of the generation.'
(13) I.e., brazen, without shame of each other.
(14) Isa. LIX, 15.
(15) ,rsgb
(16) V. p. 387, n. 7.
(17) ohrsg ohrsg 'Adarim, 'adarim. ,rsgb is connected with rsg, meaning 'drove,' 'group.'
(18) Probably meaning that there will be so many conflicting opinions as to what is the truth as to render it, for all practical purposes, inaccessible.
(19) kku,an
(20) Cf. Job XII, 17: He leadeth counsellors away spoiled (kkua) and maketh the judges fools. Sholal being parallel to 'fools', it bears the same connotation.

---Talmud, Sanhedrin 97a

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Finally, of the royal Messiah it is written, And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord (Isa. XI, 2).
---Genesis Rabbah 97

 

[simchat_torah]

I hope these are what you're looking for Chilehed.

Shalom,
Yafet.

 

[johnd]

Did not the two messiahs doctrine stem from not considering the resurection of the one Messiah?

Not disperaging the rabs, just pointing out an oversight???

 

[simchat_torah]

Yes, if you read these quotes above, you will see that many Rabbinic sources felt that these 'two messiahs' were actually one come twice.

There is a diverging thought on this issue in Rabbinic Judaism.
-Yafet.

 

[johnd]

Interesting!

 

[chilehed]

Oh, wow, this is much more than I can possibly absorb in one sitting! I pasted into a word file, thanks.

Happy Channukah!