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oh yes, I am sure there are many many many people in heaven who is not recognized by the Church as a Saint, the title of Saint is for people with a heroic devotion to faith in Christ.Do you think there are "Saints" or people in heaven whom your church did not vote in?
Thank you for the verses. I knew about the ones in Acts and Matthew but had not thought about the one in Genesis. Those verses do show that angels serve us. But, I have not seen any examples in the Bible of people praying to angels or being told to pray to them.As far as guardian angels- Acts 12.14-15 - Matt 18.10 - Gen 48.16
specifically if this is going to "traditionally" be a major part of Christian worship/living.If any one of us were really open-minded on the subject, we'd have to admit that the complete absence of any Biblical reference about praying to the deceased or to angels is very significant, especially when we consider all the many places in scripture where praying and how to pray are described.
if one thinks of pray in its broader meaning, as communication/awareness, then examples do exist (Mary communicates with Gabriel, Zachariah is another example ...)Thank you for the verses. I knew about the ones in Acts and Matthew but had not thought about the one in Genesis. Those verses do show that angels serve us. But, I have not seen any examples in the Bible of people praying to angels or being told to pray to them.
if one thinks of pray in its broader meaning, as communication/awareness, then examples do exist (Mary communicates with Gabriel, Zachariah is another example ...)
what is narrowly translated as prayer encompasses many terms, all sharing "communicate". Passing on a petition is one form of communication.I don't think that will wash. After all, Catholics/Orthodox here argue frequently that "praying" is nothing but asking, so "What's the problem?," they conclude.
In those examples you gave, there isn't any petition delivered to the angel to be passed on to the Father, is there?
Passing on a petition is one form of communication.
"... the Kingdom of heaven is within you ..." teaches ChristAnd that's the one that is relevant to this discussion. As I said, if Mary had asked the angel to carry a petition to the Father, you'd have a case. But we know that she did not, so all you can deduce from this is that every "communication" with the dead or angels is not necromancy, and nothing about prayer to the saints.
"... the Kingdom of heaven is within you ..." teaches Christ
the Saints, the angels, those with whom we share a spiritual connection in this life -- all are connected in the Holy Spirit
and within; the Christian belongs to the body of Christ -- the body is either sundered or not. If the Saints and angels are not in the body of Christ, then they are not of God.By which Christ meant that HE--the Kingdom--was in their midst, i.e. within their company. He was saying to them that the Kindgom was not something that was coming in the future, and certainly not something political, but the Messiah himself.
...which has nothing to do with prayers to the deceased or to angels. We are connected in some sense, but that doesn't mean "anything goes" as to how we respond to this understanding.
it's a misrepresentation to assume that if someone is not contactable, they are "sundered."and within; the Christian belongs to the body of Christ -- the body is either sundered or not. If the Saints and angels are not in the body of Christ, then they are not of God.
in the context of the discussion, the "sundering" is death (Saints) and between the spiritual (noetic) and physical worlds (Saints, angels)it's a misrepresentation to assume that if someone is not contactable, they are "sundered."
I can't talk to my Grandmother who is somewhere else (without a phone, anyways.) we are not in contact. Is she sundered from my family, because I am unable to reach her?
and?in the context of the discussion, the "sundering" is death (Saints) and between the spiritual (noetic) and physical worlds (Saints, angels)
and within; the Christian belongs to the body of Christ -- the body is either sundered or not. If the Saints and angels are not in the body of Christ, then they are not of God.
If any one of us were really open-minded on the subject, we'd have to admit that the complete absence of any Biblical reference about praying to the deceased or to angels is very significant, especially when we consider all the many places in scripture where praying and how to pray are described.
Repeating . . . how then do the angels obtain our prayers? By what method, if not through prayer?
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