questions for those who pray to "Saints"

jckstraw72 · Apr 9, 2008

um this is the Church of God we're talking about, not a game of telephone. whats the difference? you might ask. well, that'd be the Holy Spirit. I never thought He was present in a rousing game of telephone.

and i never said no errors were made. but they didnt overtake the Church -- Arianism being a great example.

christianmomof3 · Apr 9, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
consult the authors ... just like St. Clement, St. Ignatius, St. Polycarp, St. Ireneaus, etc etc and just like their congregations did. The next generation consults those who consulted with the Apostles, and so on.

They are not the authors of the Bible.
Jesus is the Author and perfecter of our faith.
The Bible is the word of God.
Over 2000 times it claims to be the word of God.
It is not the word of Clement, Ignatius and those other people.

Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Mk 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Lk 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
Lk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

And we can ask God Himself what His word means.

Kristos · Apr 10, 2008

christianmomof3 said:
Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Mk 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Lk 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
Lk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

And we can ask God Himself what His word means.

Seems like you are making jacks case for him

Uphill Battle · Apr 10, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
um this is the Church of God we're talking about, not a game of telephone. whats the difference? you might ask. well, that'd be the Holy Spirit. I never thought He was present in a rousing game of telephone.

and i never said no errors were made. but they didnt overtake the Church -- Arianism being a great example.

oh, well the claim of the Holy Spirit protecting everybody from error! That's an original thought! Except a whole bunch of other people think the same thing too.

well shucks.

jckstraw72 · Apr 10, 2008

im not interested in being original.

unfortunately your claim, that the Spirit is apparently absent, is no longer original either.

Uphill Battle · Apr 10, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
im not interested in being original.

unfortunately your claim, that the Spirit is apparently absent, is no longer original either.

I did not claim the Holy Spirit was absent.

I just don't pretend that he's a personal Genie that exists to protect and confirm every caveat and teaching of any organization.

Rhamiel · Apr 10, 2008

Uphill, I notice you like to use the word " organization" a lot and in an almost negative way, were not the 12 apostles and organization? were not the first disciples an organization? It seems that our Lord Jesus Chist started an organization when He was on earth

Uphill Battle · Apr 10, 2008

Rhamiel said:
Uphill, I notice you like to use the word " organization" a lot and in an almost negative way, were not the 12 apostles and organization? were not the first disciples an organization? It seems that our Lord Jesus Chist started an organization when He was on earth

no, they were not. At least not in the sense of a Hiearchial bureaucracy like "the church"(sic) of today.

Albion · Apr 10, 2008

Rhamiel said:
Uphill, I notice you like to use the word " organization" a lot and in an almost negative way, were not the 12 apostles and organization? were not the first disciples an organization?

Quite candidly...No. There's almost nothing about the Apostles' situation that amounts to an organization.

jckstraw72 · Apr 11, 2008

a body of Christ with errors in it is hardly a body of Christ in any way. how does teh body of our perfect Lord become imperfect?

Uphill Battle · Apr 11, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
a body of Christ with errors in it is hardly a body of Christ in any way. how does teh body of our perfect Lord become imperfect?

you act as if we are his literal body. we are of course, not any such thing.

Albion · Apr 11, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
a body of Christ with errors in it is hardly a body of Christ in any way. how does teh body of our perfect Lord become imperfect?

I realize that your theological system is almost totally a matter of rationalizing, but here it really lets you down.

We are sinners. Do you disagree? If we are sinners, we are not perfect. Therefore, the only way that the Body of Christ could exist--given your requirements for everyone to be flawless--would be if no humans were allowed in it. Cults like the Albigensians of old get around this in a way by stipulating that they are perfected, but that doesn't apply in your case and so you are merely stuck using a senseless argument. (But as always, it looks sage at first glance or to those who aren't particularly interested in what the Word of God has conveyed to us about this matter.)

The body of Christ is made up of believers, not perfecti.

MrPolo · Apr 11, 2008

Albion said:
Very well. I did as you asked and found that not one of the verses you mentioned deals with people petitioning/praying to deceased people or angels.

The members are not divided, and those in heaven have knowledge of us as I already showed in 1 Cor 13:12 which I detailed in #211. This notion that our heavenly brethren will not or cannot pray for us if we ask them is not only unscriptural, but contrary to Scripture.

Take the Psalm 148:2 passage for instance:
Praise him, all his angels,
praise him, all his host!

The heavenly host of angels is directly addressed to join the Psalmist in prayer. And that isn't the only one regarding heavenly beings I showed. Don't forget Peter praying Tabitha return to her body in Acts. She was dead. Or all the rest, no need to go into them again. So when you say I haven't even "attempted" to show prayer to heavenly beings, that's just over-the-top-ism and a big red flag.

wrongful things with or in the name of those other persons.

Sorry, there is no Scripture forbidding prayer to heavenly members of Christ's body. Only Scripture supporting it.

HisWordisTruth7 · Apr 11, 2008

MrPolo Don't forget Peter praying Tabitha return to her body in Acts. She was dead. Or all the rest said:
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/4.gif[/IMG]

Sorry, there is no Scripture forbidding prayer to heavenly members of Christ's body. Only Scripture supporting it.

Peter wasn't praying to Tabitha..He was commanding her to come forth by the power of God...Same as Jesus calling to Lazarus.. Lazarus was dead..Is was the power of God at work to raise him up..

jckstraw72 · Apr 11, 2008

so then what does it mean for the Church to be the Body of Christ? is it just a nice label with no real meaning?

Uphill Battle · Apr 11, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
so then what does it mean for the Church to be the Body of Christ? is it just a nice label with no real meaning?

didn't say that.

but what part are you? Are you his pinky finger? Are you a bloodcell? what?

it is something other than a literal understanding of being his body.

Kristos · Apr 11, 2008

I am the big toe

Uphill Battle · Apr 11, 2008

Kristos said:
I am the big toe

that indispensible, are you?

a body can't move quickly without the big toe. That's why historically enemies who were captured had their thumbs and big toes cut off.

couldn't run, couldn't hold a sword.

Rhamiel · Apr 11, 2008

HisWordisTruth

Peter wasn't praying to Tabitha He was commanding her to come forth by the power of God.

so by the power of God, the spirits of those who are dead can hear what we say?
this sounds like the orthodox view of praying to the saints "they can hear us because of the power of God"

Albion · Apr 11, 2008

MrPolo said:
The members are not divided, and those in heaven have knowledge of us as I already showed in 1 Cor 13:12 which I detailed in #211.

Which still has NOTHING to do with whether praying to beings other than God is good and/or scriptural. 1 Cor. 13:12 doesn't even deal with the subject BTW.

Take the Psalm 148:2 passage for instance:
Praise him, all his angels,
praise him, all his host!

Why don't you include the very next line, I wonder? You know, "Praise him, sun and moon; Praise him, all ye stars and light." Now, according to what you want us to think, we are supposed to be praying to the moon. Or possibly, the moon is part of the "communion of saints" and we are all bound together in the body of Christ, etc. How about that? Could this possibly be further from the meaning of the psalmist?

Sorry, there is no Scripture forbidding prayer to heavenly members of Christ's body. Only Scripture supporting it.

There is no scripture that supports it; that's the problem.

But it is equally significant that there is much scripture that supports praying to God directly instead. As you know, you can't prove something with nothing.

questions for those who pray to "Saints"

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