questions for those who pray to "Saints"

[christianmomof3]

For those of you who pray to "Saints",
1. Do you reject the general meaning of the word saint which applies to all those who are believers?
Do you think that "Saints" are only those who are dead?
Do you think that the word saint in the Bible always referred to dead people?
2. Do these "Saints" talk to you? Do they respond to you?
3. I have seen this verse used to justify praying to "Saints" Rev. 5:8 And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each having a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which bowls are the prayers of the saints.

So, what do you think saint means in that verse? Is it dead people or living people?

I always thought it referred to living people.

4. I have heard ya'll say that you are just asking these "Saints" to pray with you. Do they respond to you - really?
Because God responds to me.
I know, feel and experience God.
When I ask living people to pray with me or to pray for me, they respond to me.
It seems to me, that either the dead do not respond to you and perhaps you have not experinced God either so you don't know the difference in praying to dead people and praying to God, or the dead people do respond to you - which I personally find creepy, especially since the Bible specifically tells us not to even try to contact the dead.

I know that ya'll have this concept of dead people living in heaven.
I personally don't have any idea what really happens after death.
But no dead person has ever talked to me nor would I want one to.

So anyway, if you think that dead people do talk to you, are they ghosts?
Do you believe in ghosts?
Do dead people (who you think are alive in heaven) talk to you?
Does God talk to you?
just wondering.

 

[Uphill Battle]

queue "They aren't dead, the're alive."

 

[Thekla]

I'll try --

but first, in modern English it is more understandable to say that one asks both saints and Saints to pray for us ...

1. saint/agia just means "set apart", dedicated to God.
saints belong to the "Church militant", Saints to the "Church triumphant" ; in Paul's terminology, the latter have finished the race. The former are still in training/running.

only those whom Christ has crowned - who have finished the race/are in heaven are called Saints. As for the saints, it is possible to fall away (apostatize).

the word agia means what it means in the Bible - set aside/apart; see above

2. prayers are answered; asking a saint to pray for you joins prayer to prayer, lifted to God and the prayer - as He wills - can be fulfilled answered by Him.

3. as John states, he is witnessing what he experienced in heaven, those offering prayers in Revelations are alive in heaven.

4. I experience God, too. If I may describe this way, to answer your question: many years ago, I experienced a mild earthquake (east coast, tiny thing). The 'sound' of the earthquake came rumbling up through my feet where I stood - an odd experience. Last year, our son was having a difficulty with his return to college. It was distressing -- so I prayed to God for help, for whatever He willed, as this was well beyond my ability to "fix". Like the earthquake, but without sound, as time seemed to stop and all round me 'disappeared', from my heart 'welled up' the name, St. Basil.
I asked St. Basil to also pray on my son's behalf, for God's will and help in this situation. An answer came, we acted on it, and my son was able to return to college.

Others have experienced more 'obvious' responses.

We do not "pray to the dead"; Christ conquered death. Our life in heaven - until the end of time - is the soul/spirit. The bonds of sheol have been broken.

I am confused by the term ghost - as it means spirit. Pure ghost, absent from God would = demon, not a "dead person".

God is always there, it is ours to listen. Whether or not we do, is another thing. When Paul (or any of the apostles) was preaching, was it Paul or the Holy Spirit teaching ? When we meet someone who is very close to God, are we attracted to the person, or to God in them ? When we are respectful of others, do we show respect to that person, or to the person as image of God ? For many, it is the latter.

Likewise with the Saints; they are respected not for themselves, but for the extent that God works through them, that they are God-filled. Many were called righteous in the Bible; were they righteous because of themselves, or because of their love for and obedience to God ?

As for a long-distance evaluation of my spiritual state - that I am in delusion - its hard enough for me to know my own sin. I am certainly not Saint, thats for sure . And if you have the gift of seeing my heart from such a distance, without knowing me, you are certainly more God-filled than me !

 

[jckstraw72]

1. Do you reject the general meaning of the word saint which applies to all those who are believers?

no. that is the way its used in the Bible. we certainly ask living Christians to pray for us too.

Do you think that "Saints" are only those who are dead?

when its a capital "S" thats usually what it refers to.

Do you think that the word saint in the Bible always referred to dead people?

no.

2. Do these "Saints" talk to you? Do they respond to you?

well we're not asking them for any response to us, we're asking them to talk to God. however, people have been visited by Saints, just as God uses angels sometimes.

3. I have seen this verse used to justify praying to "Saints" Rev. 5:8 And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each having a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which bowls are the prayers of the saints.

well if its living saints, then it shows those in Heaven offering the prayers of the living saints to God -- which demonstrates our belief in the intercession of the saints perfectly, and if its the dead saints then we can reasonably assume they are praying for those who are still alive, since they're in heaven and thus prolly dont need ot be praying for themselves. either way it demonstrates our practice.

queue "They aren't dead, the're alive."

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

---- its only if Christ ISN'T risen that those in Christ are truly dead.

 

[christianmomof3]

I'll try --

but first, in modern English it is more understandable to say that one asks both saints and Saints to pray for us ...

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

well we're not asking them for any response to us, we're asking them to talk to God. however, people have been visited by Saints, just as God uses angels sometimes.

Have you personally had a "Saint" visit you?
Have you personally had God speak to you?

 

[jckstraw72]

Have you personally had a "Saint" visit you?

nope.

Have you personally had God speak to you?

there has never been a time where i have like heard a voice, or had a convo with God like Moses used to have, or like Paul had on the road to Damascus, but id say He speaks to me inaudibly, leading me, convicting me, etc

 

[christianmomof3]

nope.


there has never been a time where i have like heard a voice, or had a convo with God like Moses used to have, or like Paul had on the road to Damascus, but id say He speaks to me inaudibly, leading me, convicting me, etc

Thank you for your honesty and for your reply.
I would really be interested in hearing from anyone who has had a "Saint" visit them or speak with them.
I also have not had God speak audibly to me in a voice that I could hear, but I have experienced Him leading, guiding, and convicting me and also speaking through me. I experience His peace and love and I experience Him as faith, hope and joy. I know and experience Him and so I know that He is real.
I have never experienced "Saints" or any dead people whether you think they are in heaven or wherever - I just have never experienced any contact with them, nor would I really want to because the idea of contacting dead people is really wrong to me.
It is kind of like the lady I met once who is a native american who was holding people's wrists and telling them things about themselves and kind of telling their futures. They were sure that she knew things about them that they had not told her. I was not sure, but I did not want her to touch me because I did not want to find out if she could or could not know things about me because that scared me and creeped me out - if that comparrison makes any sense.

But, I am interested in hearing from anyone who feels that they have had that experience because I really don't understand how anyone could know and experience God and still want to contact dead people - no matter where you think those dead people are.

 

[jckstraw72]

But, I am interested in hearing from anyone who feels that they have had that experience because I really don't understand how anyone could know and experience God and still want to contact dead people - no matter where you think those dead people are.

well like i said, we arent attempting to strike up a conversation with them. its not like Saul, who went to a pagan medium to conjure up a spirit, to try to get around God. we ask them to pray for us and we trust that the Holy Spirit gets it to them, so they can add their prayers to ours. as for visits, again, we shouldnt be asking for them, but God can use His Saints, just like He can use angels. See the Scripture i posted from 1 Cor 15 -- Paul says that because Christ IS risen, those who have fallen alseep in Him are NOT dead.

 

[Thekla]

I don't know that this qualifies, nor if it will at all make sense:

soon after we started attending an EO Church, I was invited to attend the weekly "Paraklesis" (prayer) service. Paraklesis - the word - is related to the words (in Greek) for please, comfort and Comforter (the Holy Spirit). This particular "please pray" service was to the Theotokos, Mary. Like all EO services, it begins with prayer to God, including the Lord's prayer. Several Psalms are chanted, hymns are chanted describing God's actions and the role of the Theotokos in bringing Christ to us. Also, names are read - people who are to be prayed for.

After several months of attending weekly, while driving -I took a wrong turn into a depressed neighborhood, and got badly lost. While trying to find my way, I saw an elderly woman, walking bent with the weight of several grocery bags. There was that pull, that ineluctable "do this" in my heart, and I stopped to give her a ride home. Months later, having gotten "trapped" in the wrong lane for my turn to home, I again saw an elderly woman carrying too many bags of groceries. Again, the pull, and again, I gave her a ride home. Months following this second opportunity, I was at the mall with my children. I can't stand malls, and rarely go, but they were eager to attend an event there, and I relented. As I was watching them participate, I noted an elderly woman watching the children, but looking downcast. This time also, I felt led to her, and engaged her in conversation. She explained that her son had been transferred, and had moved out of the area. She sorely missed bringing her grandchildren places, and missed their company. She asked if I would point out my children, and if she and I might enjoy this event together. As we left, she thanked me; her disposition much improved, she went home. Although none of this may seem odd, all three women were named Mary. I have not felt so led since then.

About five years ago, one year after I met the Mary at the mall, I had a rather frightening experience. I was standing in the kitchen, when my heart did I don't know what, and I had the distinct feeling that everything was draining out of me. I'm not sure how else to describe the sensation. I didn't have enough energy to feel upset about what was happening, but I remember thinking, "This is quite bad." Somehow, (I don't remember how I got there) I lay on the couch, facing a large icon we had of Mary. I didn't pray. I felt that there was nothing left of me, and in retrospect, I couldn't pray. My husband called the ambulance -- I must have looked bad. And then, while lying there, I felt something I couldn't see around my body. I couldn't see it, but I knew its shape. And I felt all that had seeped out returning; by the time the ambulance had arrived, I was weak, but ok. I went to the ER anyway; after several hours of tests, nothing wrong was found. Perhaps it was a panic attack ? I don't know -- this was the only time I've experienced something like this.

Later, I described the event - and the feeling to my parents. They are not EO, but have a long and full love for Christ. Out of the blue, my father remarked that what was surrounding me, what helped to 'pull me back in', was Mary. At any rate, later, I looked at the icon that was above me as I lay on the couch -- the shape of Mary's form, enrobed, was the shape I felt around me. How could my father, a protestant to boot, know ?

These things are, in my heart, related. Precisely how, I do not know. But I thank God for every opportunity to know His love, no matter who it "comes through". Thanks to God for His love for us ! Glory be to Jesus Christ!Thank-you also, Panagia!

 

[E.C.]

For those of you who pray to "Saints",
1. Do you reject the general meaning of the word saint which applies to all those who are believers?

Nope. I once heard a priest say something to this effect: we are all saints (little s), but not everyone is a Saint (big S).

Do you think that "Saints" are only those who are dead?

Define "dead".

Do you think that the word saint in the Bible always referred to dead people?

Nope.

2. Do these "Saints" talk to you? Do they respond to you?

Like person to person? Nope, since their souls are no longer with their bodies.
But I do know that they're praying for me.

3. I have seen this verse used to justify praying to "Saints" Rev. 5:8 And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each having a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which bowls are the prayers of the saints.

So, what do you think saint means in that verse? Is it dead people or living people?

Could be either, I guess.

Incense used in the Divine Liturgy is representative of our prayers going to heaven. We are saints. People in heaven are Saints.
However, in the context of this particular verse, the answer would be "saints". Yet one could argue "Saints" as well.

4. I have heard ya'll say that you are just asking these "Saints" to pray with you. Do they respond to you - really?
Because God responds to me.
I know, feel and experience God.
When I ask living people to pray with me or to pray for me, they respond to me.

Prayer to one's patron saint: "Pray unto God for me, O Holy Saint (Name), well-pleasing to God: for I turn unto thee, who art the speedy helper and intercessor for my soul".

We know that the Saints in heaven can hear our prayers and pray for us. Praying for us is a response since we're asking and they are doing.

It seems to me, that either the dead do not respond to you and perhaps you have not experinced God either so you don't know the difference in praying to dead people and praying to God, or the dead people do respond to you - which I personally find creepy, especially since the Bible specifically tells us not to even try to contact the dead.

Contacting the dead would be necromancy; the sole purpose of which is to seek information. Necromancy is evil and of the evil one, thus not good for the Christian to go to psychics and so forth.

I know that ya'll have this concept of dead people living in heaven.

Eternal life?

I personally don't have any idea what really happens after death.

Nor do I!

So anyway, if you think that dead people do talk to you, are they ghosts?
Do you believe in ghosts?
Do dead people (who you think are alive in heaven) talk to you?
Does God talk to you?
just wondering.

Ghosts are a whole different ballpark.

Does God talk to me? If by talk you mean like face-to-face than no. Or at least not that I've been aware off.

 

[christianmomof3]

Define "dead".

Dead is physically dead.
I don't think that is something that most people don't know.
Why would you need "dead" to be defined?

Like person to person? Nope, since their souls are no longer with their bodies.
But I do know that they're praying for me.

How do you know that they are praying for you?

Prayer to one's patron saint: "Pray unto God for me, O Holy Saint (Name), well-pleasing to God: for I turn unto thee, who art the speedy helper and intercessor for my soul".

We know that the Saints in heaven can hear our prayers and pray for us. Praying for us is a response since we're asking and they are doing.

What is a "patron Saint"? How do ya'll define who is and who is not a "Saint"? I think the Catholics vote them in based on miracles or something. How do Orthodox determine who is a "Saint" and who is not and are "Saints" just dead saints?
Or do ya'll think they were somehow better than other Christians?
What is it that you think they "do" as a response?

Does God talk to me? If by talk you mean like face-to-face than no. Or at least not that I've been aware of.

I guess my question would be something like how do you know these "Saints" are really somewhere listening to you? Like I said, I don't know what happens after we die and I have never had any contact from physically dead people nor would I want that. But, your "Saints" are physically dead people. So, how is that different from a ghost?
And, how do you know they hear you?
Do they respond to you in some form?

I know that God is real and that He exists because I experience Him. He lives in my spirit and I can contact Him. It is a spiritual rather than physical experience, but it is real. He speaks to me - not in audible words, but in my heart and in my mind and He guides me and leads me and at times has spoken through me. I know that He is real and living and active because I have real and personal experience of Him. And, not only I, but other members of the Body of Christ have the same or similar experiences of the Lord. When He has spoken through me, others have confirmed that it was His speaking. When I have heard Him speak through others, in my spirit I knew that it was speaking from the Lord.

Do you have any such experience of God?
Do you have any such experience of "Saints"?

 

[E.C.]

Dead is physically dead.
I don't think that is something that most people don't know.
Why would you need "dead" to be defined?

Physically dead and having one's soul be dead are two separate topics.

Yes, the Saints in heaven are physically dead, as in their bodies have no life in them, however, their souls are still alive with God.

How do you know that they are praying for you?

Hebrews 11:1 answers part of this question.

The other is from the experiences that a few old grandma types have shared with me. One of which is very moving.

What is a "patron Saint"? How do ya'll define who is and who is not a "Saint"? I think the Catholics vote them in based on miracles or something. How do Orthodox determine who is a "Saint" and who is not and are "Saints" just dead saints?

Rome, for whatever reason, added that miracle requirement, but that is only within their Church.

In the context of the prayer I copied from an Orthodox prayer book, when one becomes Orthodox, they take the name of a Saint. Their patron saint. My saint is St. Constantine the Great who was the Roman Emperor that ended the persecution of Christians within the Roman Empire (among other things) thus within the Church I am known as Constantine. If I were to go down the path of the clergy, than I would be something like Reader Constantine, Subdeacon Constantine, etc.

Unlike Rome, the people decide the saint. Some lived a life of pure holiness and thus their eventual glorification (canonization in the West) is anticipated. St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco was one such anticipated saint. It starts at the local level of veneration and spreads from their. Thus, it goes from the people upwards and not like Rome which goes from the leadership downwards.

Or do ya'll think they were somehow better than other Christians?

What is it that you think they "do" as a response?

Knowing my life thus far and the lives of a number of saints, I would have to say that they are much better Christians than I.

I guess my question would be something like how do you know these "Saints" are really somewhere listening to you?

Same response as the one which has Hebrews quoted.

Like I said, I don't know what happens after we die and I have never had any contact from physically dead people nor would I want that. But, your "Saints" are physically dead people. So, how is that different from a ghost?

And, how do you know they hear you?
Do they respond to you in some form?

A ghost is of evil and haunts people on this earth. They are demons that look like those we knew and loved. These demons exist only to trick and scare us as such. The Saints are of good.
The main difference being that a ghost does not nor ever did have the Holy Spirit in it (as far as I know).
You know how kids make those tin-can telephones with the string? The Holy Spirit (God) is what helps keep the line connected, so to say.

I know that God is real and that He exists because I experience Him. He lives in my spirit and I can contact Him. It is a spiritual rather than physical experience, but it is real. He speaks to me - not in audible words, but in my heart and in my mind and He guides me and leads me and at times has spoken through me. I know that He is real and living and active because I have real and personal experience of Him. And, not only I, but other members of the Body of Christ have the same or similar experiences of the Lord. When He has spoken through me, others have confirmed that it was His speaking. When I have heard Him speak through others, in my spirit I knew that it was speaking from the Lord.

You're sounding Orthodox here!

Do you have any such experience of God?

Do you have any such experience of "Saints"?

Of God? Yes. It was how I was treated within various Orthodox parishes and by the parish as a whole that lead me to Orthodoxy. I was never treated as kind in a Protestant parish.
But of Saints? That is a private matter and not one that I'm willing to share at this time.

 

[Amaryllismayfly]

ls there a biblical scripture telling us to pray to Mary or the Saints?
Since the Saints are not omnipresent, how do they know which prayer to hear?
Is there a scripture where it says that the Saints interceed for us?
When did praying to the Saints begin?

As an outsider looking in it sounds very strange to me. I will not argue with you (I hope!!) I am just trying to see your view point. Thanks in advance.

 

[jckstraw72]

ls there a biblical scripture telling us to pray to Mary or the Saints?

not directly no. but we are told to pray for fellow Christians. those in Heaven have been perfected and thus would be doing nothing but God's will which includes praying. and Revelation shows them praying for us, so we ask them to pray for us. just like i know my mom prays for me but i might still ask her to pray for a specific need.

Since the Saints are not omnipresent, how do they know which prayer to hear?

its all by the Holy Spirit

Is there a scripture where it says that the Saints interceed for us?

Revelation shows several instances of it. Its also shown in 2 Maccabees which we accept as Scripture.

When did praying to the Saints begin?

quite possibly in pre-Christian times, but there is evidence of it 1st or 2nd century AD.

 

[Kristos]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

Have you personally had a "Saint" visit you?
Have you personally had God speak to you?

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42207070&postcount=3

 

[christianmomof3]

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42207070&postcount=3

thank you, but that is a second or thirdhand account.
it is a story.
I would like to hear a first person account from someone who has had a direct experience of a "Saint".

 

[Rowan]

thank you, but that is a second or thirdhand account.
it is a story.
I would like to hear a first person account from someone who has had a direct experience of a "Saint".

That story demonstrates how Orthodox live in fellowship with their brothers and sisters in heaven daily.

I would share, and still might, but honestly am fearful about what you would do with that information. Call me delusional? Pick it apart? Call it demonic? I think I'd rather have you not believe than come dangerously close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit, because our fellowship is possible through the Holy Spirit, not through our power or theirs.

 

[Uphill Battle]

That story demonstrates how Orthodox live in fellowship with their brothers and sisters in heaven daily.

I would share, and still might, but honestly am fearful about what you would do with that information. Call me delusional? Pick it apart? Call it demonic? I think I'd rather have you not believe than come dangerously close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit, because our fellowship is possible through the Holy Spirit, not through our power or theirs.

to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, you'd have to knowingly attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil, not be mistaken. (If, of course, the person were mistaken to begin with.)

beyond that, I've never had it adequately explained, how if this connection exists, that all of the believers have (supposed, as they can have saints hear them if they ask them to pray for them)

that they can't just pray at home to have their friend on the opposite side of the globe hear them so that they can pray for them just like a "S"aint would. (without the benefit of phone, internet et. al.)

if, as is claimed, every believer can contact the saints to pray for them, then the same should apply for those still here. It does not.

 

[christianmomof3]

That story demonstrates how Orthodox live in fellowship with their brothers and sisters in heaven daily.

I would share, and still might, but honestly am fearful about what you would do with that information. Call me delusional? Pick it apart? Call it demonic? I think I'd rather have you not believe than come dangerously close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit, because our fellowship is possible through the Holy Spirit, not through our power or theirs.

I am sorry that you feel that way, but I understand that on this forum that happens a lot. I do not understand what you mean by blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
I personally would not call you delusional or demonic but I have seen that kind of thing happen here so I understand your feeling.
I just really have not heard first person accounts of people's experiences of "Saints".
I think I may have mentioned it in this thread, but perhaps it was another one - that my belief in God is due to personal experience of Him. I have had no personal experience of "Saints" and don't know anyone who has, so it is very difficult for me to understand.

 

[Rowan]

to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, you'd have to knowingly attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil, not be mistaken. (If, of course, the person were mistaken to begin with.)

The people that blasphemed the Holy Spirit in the Bible were ignorant.

beyond that, I've never had it adequately explained, how if this connection exists, that all of the believers have (supposed, as they can have saints hear them if they ask them to pray for them)

I've never had it adequately explained, either. I've just experienced it.

that they can't just pray at home to have their friend on the opposite side of the globe hear them so that they can pray for them just like a "S"aint would. (without the benefit of phone, internet et. al.)

if, as is claimed, every believer can contact the saints to pray for them, then the same should apply for those still here. It does not.[/quote]

That's not the same at all. The saints in Christ aren't no longer bound by the same time and space constrictions that we are.

I am sorry that you feel that way, but I understand that on this forum that happens a lot. I do not understand what you mean by blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
I personally would not call you delusional or demonic but I have seen that kind of thing happen here so I understand your feeling.
I just really have not heard first person accounts of people's experiences of "Saints".
I think I may have mentioned it in this thread, but perhaps it was another one - that my belief in God is due to personal experience of Him. I have had no personal experience of "Saints" and don't know anyone who has, so it is very difficult for me to understand.

I'm glad you understand, and personally, I don't think our experience is all that different, fundamentally. My experience has ranged from simply asking a saint to pray for me and others, to quirky "coincidences" (like my friend Nick finding my lost St. Nicholas button I thought was gone forever--I let him keep it), to my guardian angel helping me learn the ways of God (while apparently staying very busy protecting me from myself, sometimes). All this is possible because the Church Militant on earth is in communion with the Church Triumphant through the Holy Spirit. Beyond that, God knows.

Their wills are perfectly matched with the will of God, so they will never lead us astray--only to Christ, because that's what He wants.