Questions for Synergists

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Arcoe

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Why is the Holy Spirit trying to save people God knows will never believe?

Zechariah 1:6 -
Just as the Lord of hosts determined to do to us, according to our ways and according to our deeds, so He has dealt with us.

The Lord determines to do to us (save, regenerate, justify, glorify...etc.) according to our ways ways and deeds. This is how He deals with us. This is why the HS is trying to save us.

If God knows Bob will never believe, and God creates Bob anyway, can Bob choose life?

Yes, Bob can choose life just as you and I did. God determines Bob's destination according to Bob's ways and deeds. Knowing is not causing it to come to pass.
 
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Arcoe

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So this is the pure Arminian viewpoint; that God chooses those he knows will choose Him.

Seems to me those people are self-selecting.

Zechariah 1:6 -
Just as the Lord of hosts determined to do to us, according to our ways and according to our deeds, so He has dealt with us.

God determines to choose us according to our ways and deeds. This is how He deals with mankind.
 
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guuila

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Zechariah 1:6 -
Just as the Lord of hosts determined to do to us, according to our ways and according to our deeds, so He has dealt with us.

The Lord determines to do to us (save, regenerate, justify, glorify...etc.) according to our ways ways and deeds. This is how He deals with us. This is why the HS is trying to save us.

The verse you quoted has nothing to do with my question. Why is God trying to save people he knows with perfect omniscience will never believe anyway? Why doesn't God just focus on the ones he knows will believe?

Yes, Bob can choose life just as you and I did.

So you deny God's omniscience then? You're an Open Theist? Lest you get confused, you have just said that even if God knows Bob will never believe, Bob can still believe.

God determines Bob's destination according to Bob's ways and deeds.

Ok.

Knowing is not causing it to come to pass.

Ok. So if God knows Bob will reject the Gospel, and God creates Bob anyway, you believe Bob can still believe the Gospel. Thus you are an Open Theist. I'm glad we finally got this out in the open! :wave:
 
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crimsonleaf

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The verse you quoted has nothing to do with my question. Why is God trying to save people he knows with perfect omniscience will never believe anyway? Why doesn't God just focus on the ones he knows will believe?



So you deny God's omniscience then? You're an Open Theist? Lest you get confused, you have just said that even if God knows Bob will never believe, Bob can still believe.



Ok.



Ok. So if God knows Bob will reject the Gospel, and God creates Bob anyway, you believe Bob can still believe the Gospel. Thus you are an Open Theist. I'm glad we finally got this out in the open! :wave:
Well, that was surprisingly easy... and fun too.
 
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guuila

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griff said:
Even if that's the case, if God knows Bob will never believe, and God creates Bob anyway, can Bob be saved if I share the gospel with him today?

janxharris said:

Arcoe said:
Yes, Bob can choose life just as you and I did.

Arcoe, are you going to correct your fellow synergist? Or does he get a free pass since he hates Calvinism? I suspect I know the answer.
 
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guuila

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Arcoe, you didn't acknowledge post #918 so I'll go ahead and repost it for you:

As you see griff, you can't escape synergism, no matter how hard you try.

If you define synergism as "you make a choice to believe" then no, I can't escape synergism.

Show me in any Calvinist writing where it says good works are necessary for salvation. You can start with the Westminster Confessions if you like. I'll be waiting (now where's that Michael Jackson's popcorn picture when you need it?).

Where should I start? I guess the 1689 London Baptist Confession will work:

"Faith which receives Christ's righteousness and depends on Him is the sole instrument of justification, yet this faith is not alone in the person justified, but is always accompanied by all the other saving graces. And it is not a dead faith, but works by love." - Section 11.2

"Good works, performed in obedience to God's commandments, are these: the fruits and evidences of a true and living faith. By these believers express and show their thankfulness, strengthen their assurance, edify their brethren, adorn the profession of the Gospel, stop the mouths of the adversaries, and glorify God, Whose workmanship they are; created in Christ Jesus to perform good works, and to have fruits of holiness which lead to eternal life." - Section 16.2

"Their ability to do these good works does not in any way come from themselves, but comes wholly from the Spirit of Christ. To enable them to do good works, alongside the graces which they have already received, it is necessary for there to be a further real influence of the same Holy Spirit to cause them to will and to do of His good pleasure. But believers are not, on these grounds, to grow negligent, as if they were not bound to perform any duty unless given a special motion by the Spirit, but they must be diligent in stirring up the grace of God that is in them." - Section 16.3

"We cannot by our best works merit pardon of sin or eternal life from the hand of God because of the great disproportion between our best works and the glory to come, and because of the infinite distance which is between us and God. With our works we cannot profit or satisfy God concerning the debt we owe on account of our sins. When we have done all we can, we have only done our duty, and are still unprofitable servants. And in any case, in so far as our works are good they originate from the work of the Holy Spirit. Even then, the good works are so defiled by us, and so mixed with weakness and imperfection, that they could not survive the severity of God's judgement." - Section 16.5

"Those whom God has predestinated to life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time to effectually call by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death which they are in by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ. He enlightens their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God. He takes away their heart of stone and gives to them a heart of flesh. He renews their wills, and by His almighty power, causes them to desire and pursue that which is good. He effectually draws them to Jesus Christ, yet in such a way that they come absolutely freely, being made willing by His grace." - Section 10.1

"In this war, although the remaining corruption for a time may greatly prevail, yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part overcomes. And so the saints grow in grace perfecting holiness in the fear of God; pressing after a heavenly life in evangelical obedience to all the commands which Christ as Head and King, in His Word, has prescribed to them." - Section 13.3

I hope that clears up your confusion. Ultimately what matters is what Scripture says, and Scripture plainly teaches that a person without good fruit has dead faith that can't save. I honestly have no idea why we're talking about this. I never once denied the necessity of good works, and as far as I know, nobody else did either. Why are you so obsessed with this topic?

Straw man? We are talking of the very essence of salvation. And you admit good works are necessary

What do you mean I "admit" it, as though I have something to hide? Scripture is plain on this matter. Good works are evidence of regeneration. No good works = no regeneration. No regeneration = no salvation.

Actually, the difference is I believe what the Bible says about regeneration, which plainly states to cast away your transgressions to make yourself a new heart.

That is an imperative. That is not the doctrine of regeneration. If you want to know what happens in regeneration, you should read Jer. 32:40 and Ezekiel 36:26. You're confusing a doctrine with a command.

I'm not sure why you prefer man's way of regeneration (which will fail 100% of the time) when we definitely have God's way given to us (which will succeed 100% of the time).

Seriously have no idea what you're talking about. Man's way of regeneration? You know I'm a Calvinist right? I believe any good thing done by any person is a product of God's grace. Man's salvation in no way depends on him. It's all of grace. Salvation is of the Lord.
 
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janxharris

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Very weird. For the life of me, I can't understand how a person who has supposedly seen their own sinfulness and their own worthiness of nothing but eternal hell can get so up in arms when they're told "Hey you know what? The Bible teaches that God foreloved you before the foundation of the world, and decided to set his love and mercy upon you, and God decided that he was going to step in and pluck you out of the miry clay and change your heart so that you'd love him and desire holiness, and God guarantees that you'll persevere in faith and will experience eternal joy and blessing for all of eternity in his presence. Yes, God did that for you before you were ever born! He loves you so much he didn't base your right standing with him on any actions you did, but rather he stepped into the situation and provided what was required for you!"

How can a person who has experienced the grace of God in salvation read that and throw a temper tantrum like a two year old brat and demand that they performed some autonomous act to effect their own election and right standing with God? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. Simply amazing to me. I'm glad it's up to God to sort it all out and not me.

To suggest that God would show favouritism in this way is beyond comprehension. You insult God.
 
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janxharris

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Here we have a sinner who is infuriated that he might be under the control of a sovereign thrice Holy God. Fallen man just cannot stand the thought of him not being autonomous. Just further evidence that we fell in Adam. I'm so thankful to God that he conquered my desire to be autonomous, and that he has given me a spirit that is submissive to his Lordship and sovereignty. If God determined before the foundation of the world that I would be a recipient of his mercy and grace, without any consideration to anything I did, I am so thankful for that. If my election depended on me, I would perish, for I know my own sinfulness and inclination to serve myself and never submit to the one true God. Thank you God for changing my heart! I guess I'm just not as good as the synergists around here who were good enough to make themselves elect.

Please refrain from impugning God's good name with this falsehood.
 
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Hammster

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To suggest that God would show favouritism in this way is beyond comprehension. You insult God.

To say that God chooses those who do good is favoritism.
 
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guuila

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To suggest that God would show favouritism in this way is beyond comprehension. You insult God.

How do you escape favoritism? In your system, God chooses the ones he likes better because they set themselves apart by their obedience. You insult God.

Your objection is a false dilemma and does nothing to refute the Biblical understanding of election. At the end of the day, God has mercy on whom he will, and he hardens whom he will, and who are you o man to answer back to God?
 
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janxharris

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How do you escape favoritism? In your system, God chooses the ones he likes better because they set themselves apart by their obedience. You insult God.

Your objection is a false dilemma and does nothing to refute the Biblical understanding of election. At the end of the day, God has mercy on whom he will, and he hardens whom he will, and who are you o man to answer back to God?

It's the favouritism that scripture speaks of. How do I insult God?

Would you explain Romans 9:31,32
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal.

Paul is summing up all that he said and refers to the Gentiles (not an individual) and Israel (not an individual).

Do you deny that Paul refers to Genesis 25:23?
The Lord said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger

As long as an individual other yourself has been unconditional and eternally damned your okay with it. Not in my back yard...
 
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guuila

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It's the favouritism that scripture speaks of.

Where?

How do I insult God?

By insisting that humans control election.

Would you explain Romans 9:31,32
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal.

Sure. Gentiles have obtained righteousness by faith. The Jews, who used the law as the way of righteousness, did not attain it, as we are justified by faith and not by works of the law.

Paul is summing up all that he said and refers to the Gentiles (not an individual) and Israel (not an individual).

Those groups are made up of individuals. I fail to see your point.

Do you deny that Paul refers to Genesis 25:23?
The Lord said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger.”

No.

As long as an individual other yourself has been unconditional and eternally damned your okay with it. Not in my back yard...

If you want to deny original sin and God's omniscience, you're free to do so. Not in my back yard...
 
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Arcoe

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The verse you quoted has nothing to do with my question. Why is God trying to save people he knows with perfect omniscience will never believe anyway? Why doesn't God just focus on the ones he knows will believe?

God determines how to deal with people in time, not before. It is according to a man's ways and deeds that God determines how He will deal with Bob. Sure God knows Bob decision, but if God did not create Bob, He would have no ways and deeds of Bob to know.

So you deny God's omniscience then? You're an Open Theist? Lest you get confused, you have just said that even if God knows Bob will never believe, Bob can still believe.

So, I guess I can call you an Assumption Theist. If Bob believed in time, then God would know Bob will believe, and if Bob didn't believe in time, then God would know Bob will never believe.

God having no beginning nor end and living outside of time really messes with your natural time perception.

Why did God make man when knowing He would be sorry for doing it and be would grieved in His heart? When was God sorry He made man - before He made man or after?

Genesis 6 -
5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.




If God determines how to deal with Bob in time, during Bob's lifetime and according to his ways and deeds, would God knowing beforehand interfere with God's determination?

Ok. So if God knows Bob will reject the Gospel, and God creates Bob anyway, you believe Bob can still believe the Gospel. Thus you are an Open Theist. I'm glad we finally got this out in the open! :wave:

If God being, out of time, determines in time, messes with your natural time perception to where you assume the intentions of my heart, then you are an Assumption Theist. I'm glad we have that out in the open. :wave:
 
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Arcoe

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Arcoe why do you believe you're going to heaven?

When presented with His truths, I freely chose to believe them. When convicted by the Spirit of my sins, I freely chose to repent of them. When given His commands in His Word, I freely chose to obey them.

And not only did I choose those things, but I continually choose to believe and obey them. And it is by my ways and deeds that God determines how He deals with me.
 
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Arcoe

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Arcoe, are you going to correct your fellow synergist? Or does he get a free pass since he hates Calvinism? I suspect I know the answer.

What sin has Janx committed, and why are you wanting me to throw the first stone?

Just as you, he has free will to believe what he desires, do you wish God to take that away?
 
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Arcoe

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So Bob had an opportunity, and Bob blew it. Bob was just too dang stubborn. Seems that God could've tweaked Bob's personality just a bit so that Bob wouldn't be so stubborn - kind of like you! If God had only made Bob to be like you are, Bob would've been saved. Bob would've had the humility and spiritual insight you have to believe the Gospel. Just curious - how did you give yourself that kind of wisdom?

Hey griff, God 'tweaking' a person's personality is Calvinism. Why are you trying to unload this belief on Janx.

Basically you're telling us that unless a person has the ability to spit in the face of his creator, no matter how badly God wants to save that person, creation has no worth. Amazing that you define freedom as having the ability to be a stiff-necked, spoiled brat to God, having the ability to trample the son of God underfoot, and despising everything God has done in providing a substitute for sinners. Yet Jesus says anyone who sins is a slave to sin, and that the truth is what sets us free. Why don't you like to define freedom like Jesus does?

griff, did you have the ability to spit in His face, to be stiff-necked, to be a spoiled brat, to trample Jesus underfoot, and the ability to despise Him? Do you not define total depravity as such?

The truth will only set you from from sin if you believe and obey it. For example, how will you make yourself a new heart if you do not cast away your transgressions. Will unbelief in, and willful disobedience to this passage set you free from sin?

Here we have a sinner who is infuriated that he might be under the control of a sovereign thrice Holy God. Fallen man just cannot stand the thought of him not being autonomous. Just further evidence that we fell in Adam. I'm so thankful to God that he conquered my desire to be autonomous, and that he has given me a spirit that is submissive to his Lordship and sovereignty. If God determined before the foundation of the world that I would be a recipient of his mercy and grace, without any consideration to anything I did, I am so thankful for that. If my election depended on me, I would perish, for I know my own sinfulness and inclination to serve myself and never submit to the one true God. Thank you God for changing my heart! I guess I'm just not as good as the synergists around here who were good enough to make themselves elect.

It is evidence you have fallen in yourself. God did not determine before the foundation of the world, period. I have shown you He determines in time according to your ways and deeds.

If your sinfulness causes you to perish, then cast it away and abstain from it. Then God will give you a new heart. Why this truth alludes you, amazes me. Why would God elect you if you are not going to believe and obey His truths?

Well then I guess according to your logic, when you said Bob can't believe, you were demeaning to God because when Bob reads the Scripture that tells him to repent and believe today, there is no possible way Bob can do it according to you.[/quote]

I think Calvinist logic would also say Bob can't believe, which according to you, is demeaning to God. And Calvinist logic also says Bob can read the Bible that tells him to repent and believe, and yet, there is no possible way for Bob to do so. Even you say this Calvinist belief is demeaning to God.
 
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Arcoe

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To say that God chooses those who do good is favoritism.

To say God chooses anyone over someone else (Calvinist election) is also favoritism. Since you believe in favoritism, why does it matter how God chooses?
 
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Arcoe

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How do you escape favoritism? In your system, God chooses the ones he likes better because they set themselves apart by their obedience. You insult God.

Does it amaze you God sets apart those who obey? Perhaps you've haven't read
Psalm 94:2, "And he shall bring upon them their own iniquity, and shall cut them off in their own wickedness; yea, the Lord our God shall cut them off."

Does God set those apart who continue in sin and wickedness? Do you call this favoritism because cut off the wicked?

Jeremiah 44:11- Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will set my face against you for evil, and to cut off all Judah.

Is God showing favoritism to those who refrain from evil in the above Jeremiah passage?

Your objection is a false dilemma and does nothing to refute the Biblical understanding of election. At the end of the day, God has mercy on whom he will, and he hardens whom he will, and who are you o man to answer back to God?

But you keep forgetting God determines to have mercy and harden a man's heart according to man's ways and deeds. The reason Pharaoh's heart was hardened was according to his ways and deeds. Who will be brave enough to dispute God's very truth from His Word? Who will answer back to God this is not the way God does things?
 
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