Questions for Catholics....

[Poctim]

you do not sound pushy at all
sins being forgiven and removed afer we die, is what we call purgatory, it is Christ doing all the work, Purgatory is not something seperate from Christs sacrifice

Ok, with that one I'm REALLY confused.

Sins are forgiven when we accept the Gift of Christ into our lives, instantly. They are removed instantly, or else how could we approach the throne of God as it says in Eph 2:18 and Eph 3:12 and Heb 4:16? How could we have God dwell within us as 1Co 3:16 and 1Co 6:19 says He does?

If our sins weren't already forgiven, we could not have God within us or approach the throne without fear.

Forgiveness of sins and removal of them is instantaneous, maturity is what takes time. Our sins are gone and paid for from that day on cavalry, there is no more atonement, no more condemnation, no more debt to pay. It was paid, instantly, as a Gift from God (see 1 John 4:9-10).

The only work that the Holy Spirit is doing in us is not a work of forgiveness, since that is already taken care of, but a work of maturity and growth to bear fruit in Christ's name and grow the body of Christ. The only way this is possible is if we are removed from the authority of the devil and given life in Christ through the COMPLETE forgiveness of our sins, born anew in Christ as sons of God. Without the grace of forgiveness through Christ, we would still be trapped by the law. We'd still have to 'earn' our way in to heaven, either in the form of good works, or in the form of suffering, either way, it's still 'earning' something that God said was a Gift from Him!

 

[Rhamiel]

Catholics have a differant view of the forgiveness of sins, that is also why we have the Sacrement of Reconciliation (confession)

 

[Poctim]

Catholics have a differant view of the forgiveness of sins, that is also why we have the Sacrement of Reconciliation (confession)

2 Corinthians 5:17-21:
Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come! But all things are from God, Who through Jesus Christ reconciled us to Himself [received us into favor, brought us into harmony with Himself] and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation [that by word and deed we might aim to bring others into harmony with Him]. It was God [personally present] in Christ, reconciling and restoring the world to favor with Himself, not counting up and holding against [men] their trespasses [but canceling them], and committing to us the message of reconciliation (of the restoration to favor). So we are Christ's ambassadors, God making His appeal as it were through us. We [as Christ's personal representatives] beg you for His sake to lay hold of the divine favor [now offered you] and be reconciled to God. For our sake He made Christ [virtually] to be sin Who knew no sin, so that in and through Him we might become [endued with, viewed as being in, and examples of] the righteousness of God [what we ought to be, approved and acceptable and in right relationship with Him, by His goodness].


Reconciliation is stated here as occurring at salvation, then it is our mission to spread the Word of Reconciliation so that others may learn of it and claim that same Gift, accept that same forgiveness. It is definitely good to confess sins to each other (James 5:16) so that we can pray for each other, but the prayers described in that verse talks about being healed. There's damage done when we sin to the spiritual tone of mind and heart, but the forgiveness still remains, it is not taken away, and our faith in Christ is still what makes us righteous before God. The prayer is also to make the power of God more available in a person's life, to help him grow more into the fullness of God.

 

[MamaZ]

Those who have Christ are all ready justified. Through the blood of Christ. Why on earth would one need to go any place other than to be with the Lord upon death?

 

[Rhamiel]

Those who have Christ are all ready justified. Through the blood of Christ. Why on earth would one need to go any place other than to be with the Lord upon death?

well we have minor vices, we have pride and envy we know we should not have these things, we try to be more Christlike and by His Grace we grow to be more like Him all the time, but we still have these minor vices, we read in the Bible that nothing unclean can enter heaven, and our little vanities are unclean, but we are also saved by Christ, so some time between death and Heaven the Grace of God changes us, Catholics call this Purgatory, we do not know what it is like or if it is a "place" like heaven and hell are places or if it is inside of time like earth is
now some Protestants have told me that our little vanities are connected to the Flesh and when the Flesh dies these die with them and since our souls are made clean by Christ there is no need for Him to finish Justification in Purgatory like Catholics believe, but Satan is a spirit and has no flesh yet he was the first to sin, so this shows us that sin is just not connected to the flesh but also the spirit

 

[Elisheba_Davina]

ok then, that is great, Purgatory is just the part of Sanctification that takes place after we are dead, that is it, people try and make it look like we are replacing the Christs sacrifice with something else, no, it is not that at all, Purgatory is just a "scary" latin name sanctification that takes place after we die

Hebrews 10
12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

It doesn't say this is done after death.

________
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


1Jn 2:12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake.


I don't have to wait for any kind of forgiveness after death.

 

[Elisheba_Davina]

Let us take a look at the 2 Maccabees verses.
As you can see they prayed and offered money for forgiveness to those that had died.
Problem is the sins that they committed is what Catholics would call mortal sin.

This sin:
Exodus 20
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

___________

You say that the effects of forgiven mortal sins and unforgiven veniel sins are forgiven (purged) in purgatory. Yet the 2 Macc passage is speaking of "mortal" sin


2 Macc 12 (Douay Rheims)
38 So Judas having gathered together his army, came into the city Odollam: and when the seventh day came, they purified themselves according to the custom, and kept the sabbath in the same place.
39 And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers.
40 And they found under the coats of the slain, some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain.
41 Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.
42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.
43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection.
44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.
46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.


I would assume by this (2 Macc) then Catholics never have to go to confession nor ask God directly for forgiveness of sins since "mortal" sins can be forgiven after death by people's prayers and money offerings.

 

[Rhamiel]

what about the minor vices we have on us when we die?
do you know Christians who love the Lord but still mess up from time to time, lol that is all of us right?
lets say I was envious, I asked the Lord to heal me of this sickness of the soul, but it turns out it was my cross to bear, i repent of my sins, die go to heaven
am I still envious in heaven? no ofcourse not
but even though I was sorry for my sins i had envy in my heart till the day i died, no I had envy on my heart at the moment I died
so nothing unclean can enter heaven, that means that God had changed me after I died and before I went to heven

 

[Rhamiel]

Let us take a look at the 2 Maccabees verses.
As you can see they prayed and offered money for forgiveness to those that had died.
Problem is the sins that they committed is what Catholics would call mortal sin.

This sin:
Exodus 20
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

___________

You say that the effects of forgiven mortal sins and unforgiven veniel sins are forgiven (purged) in purgatory. Yet the 2 Macc passage is speaking of "mortal" sin


2 Macc 12 (Douay Rheims)
38 So Judas having gathered together his army, came into the city Odollam: and when the seventh day came, they purified themselves according to the custom, and kept the sabbath in the same place.
39 And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers.
40 And they found under the coats of the slain, some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain.
41 Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.
42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.
43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection.
44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.
46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.


I would assume by this (2 Macc) then Catholics never have to go to confession nor ask God directly for forgiveness of sins since "mortal" sins can be forgiven after death by people's prayers and money offerings.

we ask for all of our sins to be forgiven at confession, but you do make a good point about this being a mortal sin, interesting
but this is before Christ died for our sins, so no Jew in the OT was "born agian" right?
hmm, this is food for thought
I have to say I never understood salvation in the OT from a Christian prespective

 

[Elisheba_Davina]

what about the minor vices we have on us when we die?
do you know Christians who love the Lord but still mess up from time to time, lol that is all of us right?
lets say I was envious, I asked the Lord to heal me of this sickness of the soul, but it turns out it was my cross to bear, i repent of my sins, die go to heaven
am I still envious in heaven? no ofcourse not
but even though I was sorry for my sins i had envy in my heart till the day i died, no I had envy on my heart at the moment I died
so nothing unclean can enter heaven, that means that God had changed me after I died and before I went to heven

I understand your thoughts here Rhamiel.
That is why the need for a daily examination of conscience as you would call it.

But even more seriously.
Say I got mad at a driver that just cut me off while driving, and lo and behold a split second later I would crash and die.
That wouldn't be sin.
It would be an uncontrolled human emotion/thought that happened. And I have no time to realize it.
Or like if I had a lustful thought. It is not sin if I don't entertain it and I get my mind onto something else. If I died before I got that lustful thought out of my mind I would not have sinned since I did not choose to sin and think that way.
Just like getting mad, if I had a lustful thought, it is just a human emotion/thoughts.
Sins are only sins when done intentionally.

I would not be unclean entering heaven with those examples.

 

[Elisheba_Davina]

we ask for all of our sins to be forgiven at confession, but you do make a good point about this being a mortal sin, interesting
but this is before Christ died for our sins, so no Jew in the OT was "born agian" right?
hmm, this is food for thought
I have to say I never understood salvation in the OT from a Christian prespective

if you find out about the 2 Macc passages let me know...that always bothered me because of the type of sin. That would be grave sin IMO.

With what we would call OT saints these may come into play, they all may have had to wait.
I admit I am not qualified to answer that question Rhamiel.

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[Anoetos]

In Christ there is no more "cleansing" necessary. No more sacrifices. No more atoning works. Nothing.

He did everything.

There is no distinction between venial and mortal sins. Christ died for all of them. He bore the penalty for all my sins.

Purgatory is unnecessary and denies the efficacy of the cross.

Christ died and paid the full penalty for when I cut someone off in traffic, think bad thoughts about my co-workers, cheat on my wife or kill someone.

Nothing more needs to be done.

I am baptized.

 

[Rhamiel]

I understand your thoughts here Rhamiel.
That is why the need for a daily examination of conscience as you would call it. .

wow, I know this has no pertinence to the thread
but did you used to be Catholic? you have a better understanding of Catholic terms (examination of conscience, mortal sin) then some Catholics I know

 

[Elisheba_Davina]

wow, I know this has no pertinence to the thread
but did you used to be Catholic? you have a better understanding of Catholic terms (examination of conscience, mortal sin) then some Catholics I know

Almost, and good catch BTW
Years ago I went through RCIA until 6 weeks before Easter then stopped. I know alot about the Catholic faith.
You should tell the church to better instruct ppl how to run RCIA classes, I could of run it better than the priest that taught us.
He's explanation for confession was...well it makes you feel better when you tell other people about your problems, don't it?
Not putting him down really, he is a very nice man.

 

[papist1]

Hebrews 10
12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

It doesn't say this is done after death.

________
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


1Jn 2:12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake.


I don't have to wait for any kind of forgiveness after death.

I think you forgot to read the passage in context.

lets look at Hebrews 10 just about ten verses later than what you posted.

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

So we see that the verses you posted were not specifically speaking about making each individual perfec, else we would not continue sinning at all. These verses show simply that we can and even do continue to sin, and if we don't continue to repent and confess our sins, they will not be forgiven if they are deadly (mortal)sin(1 john 5:16-17)

Scripture never states that we are forgiven for all of our future sins, but that we must continue to repent and confess to be forgiven. Scripture DOES state that we are forgiven for past sins though. 2Peter 1:9 read it.

Scripture makes clear that we sin as Christians, and that there is no sin in the next life, in fact you must be holy as your heavenly Father is holy, nothing unclean shall enter(heaven). Therefore, there must be a purification for sin between this life, where we have some attachment to sin, and the next. It just so happens that the church has always taught this to be a place of purification, or purging, purgatory. it is the final rush of sanctification for those in venial(non deadly sin).

pretty basic really.

BTW, no one previos to the 16th century ever taught that we have double predestination, which is a heretical teaching.
What, did God forget to teach it for the first 2/3 of Christianity?

Please do not pretextualize the scriptures and pick and choose verses out of context to fit your individual interpretation.

peace to you, papist

 

[Elisheba_Davina]

Please do not pretextualize the scriptures and pick and choose verses out of context to fit your individual interpretation.

If it seems like I ever do that, it is never intentional. I only want to know the truth for truth's sake. I would never sacrifice leading myself or anyone astray by posting verses to show "I am right, you are wrong" for the sake of compromising truth.

BTW, no one previos to the 16th century ever taught that we have double predestination, which is a heretical teaching.
What, did God forget to teach it for the first 2/3 of Christianity?

That is a classic argument.
But it is the perfect argument.

In regards to anything taught today by Catholics and or Othodox (depending on who one believes split from whom) for that matter.
If this in basic teachings then why did God allow almost the first 2/3 to almost 3/4 of Christianity to be led completely astray to most all Christians?

Scripture never states that we are forgiven for all of our future sins, but that we must continue to repent and confess to be forgiven. Scripture DOES state that we are forgiven for past sins though. 2Peter 1:9 read it.

I absolutely agree and by the way I am of the OSOA group either

Scripture makes clear that we sin as Christians, and that there is no sin in the next life, in fact you must be holy as your heavenly Father is holy, nothing unclean shall enter(heaven).

agreed of course.

Therefore, there must be a purification for sin between this life, where we have some attachment to sin, and the next. It just so happens that the church has always taught this to be a place of purification, or purging, purgatory. it is the final rush of sanctification for those in venial(non deadly sin).

Why wouldn't one be purified when one confesses and repents in this life after a sin is committed? Why does that need to happen later?

Lets say one was Catholic and one went to confession regularly and was up to date on confessing sins and were "absolved" as you would say, why would there be a need for purgatory?
I will go even further, even if there was unconfessed sin, but one had the "intent" of going asap, why wouldn't that intent be honored as forgiveness, (assuming one is contrite and has repented)?
Wouldn't there be no need for a purgatory then?


Intent meaning like the intent of baptism in the Catholic Church. If one is getting baptized next Sunday, and one dies before Sunday arrives, the church still says that person "counts" as being baptised because of intent.

Am I making any sense, seems like I am rambling.

Thank you papist for picking apart my post, I do mean that sincerely, I am not being sarcastic in the least.

 

[MamaZ]

I think you forgot to read the passage in context.

lets look at Hebrews 10 just about ten verses later than what you posted.

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

So we see that the verses you posted were not specifically speaking about making each individual perfec, else we would not continue sinning at all. These verses show simply that we can and even do continue to sin, and if we don't continue to repent and confess our sins, they will not be forgiven if they are deadly (mortal)sin(1 john 5:16-17)

Scripture never states that we are forgiven for all of our future sins, but that we must continue to repent and confess to be forgiven. Scripture DOES state that we are forgiven for past sins though. 2Peter 1:9 read it.

Scripture makes clear that we sin as Christians, and that there is no sin in the next life, in fact you must be holy as your heavenly Father is holy, nothing unclean shall enter(heaven). Therefore, there must be a purification for sin between this life, where we have some attachment to sin, and the next. It just so happens that the church has always taught this to be a place of purification, or purging, purgatory. it is the final rush of sanctification for those in venial(non deadly sin).

pretty basic really.

BTW, no one previos to the 16th century ever taught that we have double predestination, which is a heretical teaching.
What, did God forget to teach it for the first 2/3 of Christianity?

Please do not pretextualize the scriptures and pick and choose verses out of context to fit your individual interpretation.

peace to you, papist

Wow so this one time death upon the cross was not good enough for the sins of the whole world and for all eternity? So when Jesus said it is finished what did He mean by this? Many people know that Christ died for their sins. Many people try to climb in a different way though by trying to live a Holy life instead of being born again and allowing the Holy one to live in them. Scripture teaches us the gifts and callings of God are irrovakable. Meaning if one has the gift of salvation it is theres for all eternity. For it is a gift given unto them by the Father through the Son sealed with the Holy Spirit. When one is born again the have a new heart.. One that follows after the Things of God. Men who are not born again do not have this new heart and therefore are still slaves to sin.

 

[fleethefire]

We live in a fallen world and will continue to sin up until the point God calls us home. Asking a rhetorical question such as "do you still sin" is not really necessary, since the answer is an obvious yes.

Let's be honest about purgatory. First of all it is not mentioned anywhere in God's Word. Aside from the fact that purgatory is not mentioned, God's word never alludes or outlines that when we die we will not be perfect. Being perfect is not a requirement for salvation. In fact Jesus came to be a perfect sacrifice for those who are imperfect.

1 Cor. 30 It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

We won't ever be perfect! It doesn't matter if we live 1,000 or more years, we won't ever reach a point in our lives where we will conquer sin. In fact God limited man's days because of our wickedness.

Jesus is our righteousness. Jesus is our redeemer. He died on the cross to atone for our sins, and all who believe in Him shall not perish but will have eternal life. John 3:16

No where does it suggest that we will enter into a holding area, and undergo any future refinement.

Romans 6:22-24
22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is a very clear statement that we have been set free from sin our faith in Jesus.

 

[alphonsus12]

We live in a fallen world and will continue to sin up until the point God calls us home. Asking a rhetorical question such as "do you still sin" is not really necessary, since the answer is an obvious yes.

Let's be honest about purgatory. 1.) First of all it is not mentioned anywhere in God's Word. Aside from the fact that purgatory is not mentioned, God's word never alludes or outlines that when we die we will not be perfect. 2.) Being perfect is not a requirement for salvation. 3.) In fact Jesus came to be a perfect sacrifice for those who are imperfect.

1 Cor. 30 It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

We won't ever be perfect! It doesn't matter if we live 1,000 or more years, we won't ever reach a point in our lives where we will conquer sin. In fact God limited man's days because of our wickedness.

Jesus is our righteousness. Jesus is our redeemer. He died on the cross to atone for our sins, and all who believe in Him shall not perish but will have eternal life. John 3:16

4.)No where does it suggest that we will enter into a holding area, and undergo any future refinement.

Romans 6:22-24
22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is a very clear statement that we have been set free from sin our faith in Jesus.

Ok I have set up some numbers, more for my sake so that I know which points I am addressing as I sometimes tend to ramble.

1.) True the word Purgatory is never mentioned once in the Bible, however Trinity and Rapture are never mentioned either, but most Protestants do not question those beliefs as vehemently as purgatory.

2.) True being perfect is not required to be saved by Christ, however it is a requirement to enter heaven,
Rev 21:27
27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
3.) Also very true, Christ is the foundation of our holiness, but we are called to build upon that foundation. Those who trust Christ have that foundation, but how they choose to build in it is seen in their life. St. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15
"10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
We may remove those things considered hay and straw in our life time, and often times it will be emotionally painful, but if we don't they still must be burned when God tests us, but the base of Christ Jesus will remain no matter what.

4.) This I have to disagree,
1 Peter 3:18-20
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

Pax

 

[MamaZ]

Well with the trinity is it not hard to see that there is the Father Son and Holy Spirit. Therefore making three therefore comes the word trinity.. We see the catching away in the scriptures we see the Enoch and Elijah were taken.. But with purgatory I don't even see the hint of anything like this in the scriptures and in fact purgatory would make Christ sacrafice non effective if He did not take way our sins and become sin for us.. Therefore this is why the believers are now called the righteousness of Christ Jesus.. This is why we see that our citizenship is already in heaven..