Questions for Catholics....

[Poctim]

two things
One, the Catholic Church views the purification of the soul as not happening in an instant, but over time, it is God working within us, changing us, making us more like Him, but it happens over time, we view some of this time taking place after we die, Purgatory is not something seperate from being made pure by Christs sacrifice, it is just the part of that which happens after we die

two, let me try to explain it this way, lets say I hate Bob, I know I should have nothing but Christian love and charity for Bob, I ask God to make me stronger so I might get over this little envy and strife, but I go to my death hating Bob, I love Jesus and asked Him to forgive me while I was alive, but I still die with hate for Bob in my heart, ok, I am now in Heaven, and so is Bob,
do I still hate Bob?
no ofcourse not,
but I died hateing Bob
so that means, at some point between Death and Heaven, God removed some sin and/or the effects of sin from my heart, no unclean thing can enter for heaven and how i felt about Bob was an unclean emotion
Catholics call this time between death and heaven (if it is time like we understand it at all I do not know) Purgatory, because Catholics like latin sounding names for stuff lol we made up the name so it would be easier to refer to this state of being.
Jesus talks about how Blasphamy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the next, this seems to imply that some sins will be forgiven in the next world
St.Pauls letter to the corinthians, he talks about works being tested with fire, and the same fire that burns the straw refines the gold
just a bunch of little things, there is not a "home run" bible verse for Purgatory, just a bunch of little referances that make me think that it is real, you have to look at them all together

I totally agree that nothing evil will enter heaven, but here's a verse that came to mind. (Verses taken from the Amplified Bible using e-Sword)

Rom 7:14-20 We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am a creature of the flesh [carnal, unspiritual], having been sold into slavery under [the control of] sin. For I do not understand my own actions [I am baffled, bewildered]. I do not practice or accomplish what I wish, but I do the very thing that I loathe [which my moral instinct condemns]. Now if I do [habitually] what is contrary to my desire, [that means that] I acknowledge and agree that the Law is good (morally excellent) and that I take sides with it. However, it is no longer I who do the deed, but the sin [principle] which is at home in me and has possession of me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot perform it. [I have the intention and urge to do what is right, but no power to carry it out.] For I fail to practice the good deeds I desire to do, but the evil deeds that I do not desire to do are what I am [ever] doing. Now if I do what I do not desire to do, it is no longer I doing it [it is not myself that acts], but the sin [principle] which dwells within me [fixed and operating in my soul].

This verse talks about "not I who sin, but the flesh". That distinguishes a difference between spirit and flesh. When we die, the fleshly 'shell' we live in dies and all the evil that goes with it, but our spirit is the part of us that was transformed by God and made pure, and that's the part that goes to heaven.

Our spirit was made perfect by the Grace of God and wants to do good, but we fail to let it due to our entrapment in the flesh on this earth. This is why we are repeatedly asked to crucify the flesh and live in the spirit (see Gal 5:17; 5:24; 6:8; 1 Pet 4:1; Rom 8:13)

As for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the definition (Webster 1828) says: Blasphemy is an injury offered to God, by denying that which is due and belonging to him, or attributing to him that which is not agreeable to his nature.

Another definition says: Attributing to satan the work of the Holy Spirit.

What belongs to Him? The Grace that He gave us through Christ, which is the allowance of the Holy Spirit to transform us. Anyone who doesn't allow God to enter their lives, through faith in Jesus Christ so that the Holy Spirit may work within and transform us is not forgiven or a new man. Without being forgiven and transformed, we can never enter the Kingdom of God. If you don't believe that you are forgiven, or deny the work done, and transformed by the Holy Spirit with faith in Christ, then you aren't.

Also the argument can be made that in the time of Christ, He lived in the age of Law, but the age to come was the Age of Grace. If you refused Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit while under the Law, you can never move to be under Grace and are still judged by the law, since none of us can measure up to the law (see Rom 3:10) then we are doomed to judgment.

Now for the point of trial by fire. I assume you're referring to 1 Co 3:13-15 Correct? Under this assumption, we all know the reward in this verse is referring to the reward of being with God Almighty, but what is the fire he speaks of?

1 Co 3:10-12 talks about building on a Foundation, the only Good Foundation being Jesus Christ, laid by God. The building is the building of our character (v.13) Since we are to be temples of God for God to dwell within permanently (v.16).

Knowing our foundation and what we are building, certain verses will stand out:
1Pe 1:3-8 says "so that the genuineness of our faith may be tested" (v.7) being tested how though? (v.6) says "though for a little while you may be distressed by trials and suffer temptations"

What temptation can there be if the flesh is dead? There is no hindrance to the spirit once the flesh is gone. Temptation and sin is in the flesh (see Rom 8) and evil is prompted in the flesh (v.13)

Remember Col 1:22 says "Yet now has [Christ, the Messiah] reconciled [you to God] in the body of His flesh through death, in order to present you holy and faultless and irreproachable in His [the Father's] presence."

We are presented Holy and faultless, if our faith endures till the flesh is gone as it says in Col 1:23 "[And this He will do] provided that you continue to stay with and in the faith [in Christ], well-grounded and settled and steadfast, not shifting or moving away from the hope [which rests on and is inspired by] the glad tidings (the Gospel), which you heard and which has been preached [as being designed for and offered without restrictions] to every person under heaven, and of which [Gospel] I, Paul, became a minister." then what is purgatory even for? The assumption that one must 'purify' the spirit when it has been transformed by God and made pure with our sins removed as far as the east is from the west (see Ps 103:12) is like saying that God did not complete the work of purification and pay our debt on the cross, even though Jesus said it was complete (see John 19:30)

It is clearly stated that the debt is paid and our sins forgiven, no longer owing:
1 Co 6:20 - You were bought with a price [purchased with a preciousness and paid for, made His own]. So then, honor God and bring glory to Him in your body

Col 1:14 - In Whom we have our redemption through His blood, [which means] the forgiveness of our sins

The Bible even says we are complete in Christ:
Colossians 2:10 - And you are in Him, made full and having come to fullness of life [in Christ you too are filled with the Godhead--Father, Son and Holy Spirit--and reach full spiritual stature]. And He is the Head of all rule and authority [of every angelic principality and power].

Romans 8:31-34 says:What then shall we say to [all] this? If God is for us, who [can be] against us? [Who can be our foe, if God is on our side?] He who did not withhold or spare [even] His own Son but gave Him up for us all, will He not also with Him freely and graciously give us all [other] things?
Who shall bring any charge against God's elect [when it is] God Who justifies [that is, Who puts us in right relation to Himself? Who shall come forward and accuse or impeach those whom God has chosen? Will God, Who acquits us?] Who is there to condemn [us]? Will Christ Jesus (the Messiah), Who died, or rather Who was raised from the dead, Who is at the right hand of God actually pleading as He intercedes for us?

This clearly states that God is for us, and all we need to do is believe till the end (see Mark 13:13; Col 1:23)

The reason I think that God paid EVERYTHING and that we are forgiven as a GIFT, not by anything we've done or been through, is clearly stated in the following verses:

Rom 9:16 - So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.]

Rom 5:15 - But God's free gift is not at all to be compared to the trespass [His grace is out of all proportion to the fall of man]. For if many died through one man's falling away (his lapse, his offense), much more profusely did God's grace and the free gift [that comes] through the undeserved favor of the one Man Jesus Christ abound and overflow to and for [the benefit of] many.

I think that these direct references of God's Grace and His Free Gift for us doesn't rely on anything that we do except to accept, by faith alone, the truth of this mighty and wonderful Gift from God, and only from God so that no one may boast (1Co 1:28-31)

 

[svl3p]

 

[MamaZ]

sorry, I did not mean to get reptitive, ok argree to disagree, have a good day and I hope my post helped a little but lol
purgatory is not a seperate thing like you are trying to make it look like...

So explain then Please.

 

[razzelflabben]

I typed this out twice and lost it both times, so it's time to cut and paste, this is slightly different, but basically the same I have been trying to post.

hell
(Greek - dhv|hades [a�] , "the unseen world," is revealed as the place of departed human spirits between death and resurrection). The word occurs, Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; Acts 2:27,31; Revelation 1:18; 6:8; 20:13,14 and is the equivalent of the O.T. "sheol." (See Scofield "Habakkuk 2:5") . The Septuagint invariably renders sheol by hades.
Summary:
(1) Hades before the ascension of Christ. The passages in which the word occurs make it clear that hades was formerly in two divisions, the abodes respectively of the saved and of the lost. The former was called "paradise" and "Abraham's bosom." Both designations were Talmudic, but adopted by Christ in Luke 16:22; 23:43. The blessed dead were with Abraham, they were conscious and were "comforted" Luke 16:25. The believing malefactor was to be, that day, with Christ in "paradise." The lost were separated from the saved by a "great gulf fixed" Luke 16:26. The representative man of the lost who are now in hades is the rich man of Luke 16:19-31. He was alive, conscious, in the full exercise of his faculties, memory, etc., and in torment.
(2) Hades since the ascension of Christ. So far as the unsaved dead are concerned, no change of their place or condition is revealed in Scripture. At the judgment of the great white throne, hades will give them up, they will be judged, and will pass into the lake of fire Revelation 20:13,14. But a change has taken place which affects paradise. Paul was "caught up to the third heaven. . .into paradise" 2 Corinthians 12:1-4. Paradise, therefore, is now in the immediate presence of God. It is believed that Ephesians 4:8-10 indicates the time of the change. "When he ascended up on high he led a multitude of captives." It is immediately added that He had previously "descended first into the lower parts of the earth," i.e. the paradise division of Hades. During the present church-age the saved who died are "absent from the body, at home with the Lord." The wicked dead in hades, and the righteous dead "at home with the Lord," alike await the resurrection ; Job 19:25; 1 Corinthians 15:52. (See Scofield "Matthew 5:22") .



​

hell
Sheol is, in the O.T., the place to which the dead go.
(1) Often, therefore, it is spoken of as the equivalent of the grave, merely, where all human activities cease; the terminus toward which all human life moves (e.g. Genesis 42:38 grave Job 14:13 grave Psalms 88:3 grave
(2) To the man "under the sun," the natural man, who of necessity judges from appearances, sheol seems no more than the grave-- the end and total cessation, not only of the activities of life, but of life itself. Ecclesiastes 9:5,10
(3) But Scripture reveals sheol as a place of sorrow 2 Samuel 22:6; Psalms 18:5,116:3; in which the wicked are turned Psalms 9:17 and where they are fully conscious ; Isaiah 14:9-17; Ezekiel 32:21 see, especially, Jonah 2:2 what the belly of the great fish was to Jonah that sheol is to those who are therein). The sheol of the O.T. and hades of the N.T. (See Scofield "Luke 16:23") are identical.



I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest this is where the idea of pergatory comes from. Hope this helps

 

[really_special]

dont call us names

 

[really_special]

ggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg

were "comforted The believing malefactor was to be, that day, with Christ in "paradise." The lost were separated from the saved by a "great gulf fixed" The representative man of the lost who are now in hades is the rich man oHe was alive, conscious, in the full exercise of his faculties, memory, etc., and in torment.
(2) Hades since the ascension of Christ. So far as the unsaved dead are concerned, no change of their place or condition is revealed in Scripture. At the judgment of the great white throne, hades will give tut a change has taken place which affects paradise. Paul was "caught up to the third heaven. . .into paraherefore, is now in the immediate presence of God. It is believed he time of the change. "When he ascended up on high he led a multitude of captives." It is immediately added that He had previously "descended first into the lower parts of the earth," i.e. the paradise division of Hades. During the present church-age the saved who died are "absent from the body, at home with the Lord." The wicked dead in hades, and the righteous dead "at home with the Lord," alike await the resurrection


[/INDENT]hell
Sheol is, in the O.T., the place to which the dead go.
(1) Often, therefore, it is spoken of as the equivalent of the grave, merely, where all human activities cease; the terminus toward which all human life moves (e.ave grave grave
(2) To the man "under the sun," the natural man, who of necessity judges from appearances, sheol seems no more than the grave-- the end and total cessation, not only of the activities of life, but of life itself.
(3) But Scripture reveals sheol aJonah that sheol is to those who are therein). ) are identical.



I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest this is where the idea of pergatory comes from. Hope this helps

 

[really_special]

ya y yay i got mail

 

[razzelflabben]

dont call us names

what are you viewing as an attack on who or what????

 

[razzelflabben]

wow, all this and I didn't even offer my own opinion, only cut and pasted study notes that seem to support purgatory....I'm not sure what to say.....I guess I should go hide in a hole and pretend that I am somehow worthy of being heard rather than attacked for what another says....

 

[Rhamiel]

So explain then Please.

ok, we view being made clean by God as something that happens slowly, over time, the Anglicans, Methodist, EO, OO, and many other denominations have similar views when it comes to Sanctification
The Catholic Church does differ from those other groups though, we call the sanctification that happens after death "purgatory" it is not a seperate thing from any other time when God works inside your soul. It is God doing the work, not us

 

[bbbbbbb]

ok, we view being made clean by God as something that happens slowly, over time, the Anglicans, Methodist, EO, OO, and many other denominations have similar views when it comes to Sanctification
The Catholic Church does differ from those other groups though, we call the sanctification that happens after death "purgatory" it is not a seperate thing from any other time when God works inside your soul. It is God doing the work, not us

If it is God doing the work, not us, then where do indulgences fit in? A pilgrimage, which is a type of indulgence, seems like a lot of effort on the part of a person and not so much effort on the part of God.

 

[Poctim]

ok, we view being made clean by God as something that happens slowly, over time, the Anglicans, Methodist, EO, OO, and many other denominations have similar views when it comes to Sanctification
The Catholic Church does differ from those other groups though, we call the sanctification that happens after death "purgatory" it is not a seperate thing from any other time when God works inside your soul. It is God doing the work, not us

If this is a sanctification issue, then these verses come to mind:

Heb 10:10 And in accordance with this will [of God], we have been made holy (consecrated and sanctified) through the offering made once for all of the body of Jesus Christ (the Anointed One).

1Pe 1:2 Who were chosen and foreknown by God the Father and consecrated (sanctified, made holy) by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and to be sprinkled with [His] blood: May grace (spiritual blessing) and peace be given you in increasing abundance [that spiritual peace to be realized in and through Christ, freedom from fears, agitating passions, and moral conflicts].

If we've been made holy and sanctified through Jesus' sacrifice, why then must we be sanctified again? The flesh is already dead and we are alive in Christ (see Col 2:10; 2Co 5:17) we need only live in victory by faith and be made righteous by that faith (see Rom 5:1; Rom 4:5; Rom 10:10)

If we are made righteous, and have a right standing with God, and our sins are removed as far as the east is from the west (Ps 103:12) then what is there left to sanctify?

Col 1:14 says that our sins are forgiven in Christ, to be forgiven means that a debt is no longer owed, it is gone, paid for by Christ (see 1Co 6:20). If our sins are forgiven, they are GONE and no longer need to be purified any further. Those who would say you are still guilty of sins that are forgiven are not of God for it contradicts what God said.

So again I ask, because I truly don't understand it any differently, if by faith we are sanctified, made holy before God, justified and have the right to approach God as sons of God; If our debts of sin are forgiven and removed from us, washed by the blood of Jesus Christ; what then is there left to sanctify and purify in something called purgatory? Is that not the same as saying "Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough, so now I'll have to endure more to pay it back" ?? Even if we continually sin, we are continually forgiven and sanctified because Christ's blood was enough.

I really want to know your thoughts from this post and the previous. If I am mistaken, I truly wish to know, but the scriptures seem clear, Christ is enough.

 

[Rhamiel]

Christ is enough, Christ is more then enough

1Pe 1:2 Who were chosen and foreknown by God the Father and consecrated (sanctified, made holy) by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and to be sprinkled with [His] blood: May grace (spiritual blessing) and peace be given you in increasing abundance [that spiritual peace to be realized in and through Christ, freedom from fears, agitating passions, and moral conflicts].

i wanted to put some emphasis on the "increasing abundance" part, that seems to point to it being an ongoing and developmental process
but it is from Christ, no one is saying otherwise

 

[svl3p]

Christ is enough, Christ is more then enough
i wanted to put some emphasis on the "increasing abundance" part, that seems to point to it being an ongoing and developmental process
but it is from Christ, no one is saying otherwise

I take the "increasing abundance" to mean during our worldly life...we have no need for more grace and peace after death, after all...we'll be in the Lord's presence and with the highest measure of both.

 

[Poctim]

Christ is enough, Christ is more then enough ...
i wanted to put some emphasis on the "increasing abundance" part, that seems to point to it being an ongoing and developmental process
but it is from Christ, no one is saying otherwise

The increasing abundance talking about peace is that peace comes through faith and the reading of the Word of God, renewing of the mind with prayer and fasting. When we are new Christians, we do not know everything there is to know about God. So we have little faith, and do not understand much of what truly God Is. This faith and peace is increased as our experience and maturity in Christ grow. The same goes with Grace given to us from God. We may understand part of the reason we need Christ, but we are still 'used' to the old way of thinking, that Grace is increased as we begin to more fully understand how much we desperately needed, plus it increases as we continue to make mistakes and sin, the Grace is given to us again and again to forgive that mistake and increased over all.

I don't see how it points to purgatory ...

You also say that Christ is more than enough for our sins, then why purgatory? If sin is forgiven and removed, I still don't see why purgatory is needed at all ...

PS: I know I sound kinda pushy, but I truly only want to understand and be corrected if needed, as this may be an important part of the Christian life. Please don't view it as an attack.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Christ is enough, Christ is more then enough
i wanted to put some emphasis on the "increasing abundance" part, that seems to point to it being an ongoing and developmental process
but it is from Christ, no one is saying otherwise

Actually, I am saying otherwise. In my post #28 I brought up the role of indulgences and gave an example of a pilgrimage. These things are human efforts (works) as I understand them, are they not?

 

[Anoetos]

Again, the problem Evangelicals will always have with Purgatory is with the idea that although our Lord's sacrifice was somehow entirely adequate to pay the price for our sins and win our salvation, we also still have to augment it with more work in Purgatory.

This is related to the larger issue of the relation of works in general to our standing before or value to God.

Catholics will often make a distinction between the temporal and eternal effects of sin, the latter being taken care of in Christ and the former being still held to our account although we would have no means of dealing with them without Christ.

We see no such distinction in Scripture. The only temporal effects of sin we see in the Bible are sickness, death, strife, war, etc. These also will be resolved at our Lord's return because they too have been taken care of in the atonement and we live in between the already and the not yet.

If I live sinful life and indulge in behaviors that ruin my health such that I die from my choices, Christ is still sufficient to save me from sin even though my body may rust and break and die more quickly than it would ordinarily.

But this is not what Catholics are talking about when they talk about the temporal effects of sin. They are talking about a satisfaction toward God still needing to be made for sins committed by the believer.

And this does not compute, we who are in Christ are no longer condemned, we have no more sentence to carry out, Christ has done it all.

 

[Rhamiel]

You also say that Christ is more than enough for our sins, then why purgatory? If sin is forgiven and removed, I still don't see why purgatory is needed at all ...

PS: I know I sound kinda pushy, but I truly only want to understand and be corrected if needed, as this may be an important part of the Christian life. Please don't view it as an attack.

you do not sound pushy at all
sins being forgiven and removed afer we die, is what we call purgatory, it is Christ doing all the work, Purgatory is not something seperate from Christs sacrifice

 

[Anoetos]

ok, we view being made clean by God as something that happens slowly, over time, the Anglicans, Methodist, EO, OO, and many other denominations have similar views when it comes to Sanctification
The Catholic Church does differ from those other groups though, we call the sanctification that happens after death "purgatory" it is not a seperate thing from any other time when God works inside your soul. It is God doing the work, not us

I just wanted to address something here:

Evangelicals (and it's always dangerous to speak of them as a unified theological bloc) do not, as a rule, consider Sanctification to take place instantaneously, when a person "gets saved". It starts there, but in most cases it is considered a process of being conformed to the image of Christ daily in the doing of those deeds God has prepared beforehand for us to do (Eph. 2:10). It is God's work too, like our calling, justification, etc.

This process is only complete at the resurrection, when we "put off the perishable and put on the imperishable" (1 Cor. 15:53-54); i.e. when we are given new, glorified and sinless bodies, not subject to sin and all its fruit.

 

[Rhamiel]

I just wanted to address something here:

Evangelicals (and it's always dangerous to speak of them as a unified theological bloc) do not, as a rule, consider Sanctification to take place instantaneously, when a person "gets saved". It starts there, but in most cases it is considered a process of being conformed to the image of Christ daily in the doing of those deeds God has prepared beforehand for us to do (Eph. 2:10). It is God's work too, like our calling, justification, etc.

This process is only complete at the resurrection, when we "put off the perishable and put on the imperishable" (1 Cor. 15:53-54); i.e. when we are given new, glorified and sinless bodies, not subject to sin and all its fruit.

ok then, that is great, Purgatory is just the part of Sanctification that takes place after we are dead, that is it, people try and make it look like we are replacing the Christs sacrifice with something else, no, it is not that at all, Purgatory is just a "scary" latin name sanctification that takes place after we die