Questions for Catholics....

[Rhamiel]

MamaZ

But with purgatory I don't even see the hint of anything like this in the scriptures and in fact purgatory would make Christ sacrafice non effective if He did not take way our sins and become sin for us

that is like saying "you do not believe Christs sacrafice was not enough, you think you have to be born agian"
Purgatory is not a substitute for Christ, it is an effect of His Mercy

 

[alphonsus12]

Well with the trinity is it not hard to see that there is the Father Son and Holy Spirit. Therefore making three therefore comes the word trinity.. We see the catching away in the scriptures we see the Enoch and Elijah were taken.. But with purgatory I don't even see the hint of anything like this in the scriptures and in fact purgatory would make Christ sacrafice non effective if He did not take way our sins and become sin for us.. Therefore this is why the believers are now called the righteousness of Christ Jesus.. This is why we see that our citizenship is already in heaven..

Purgatory has no effect on one's salvation, as everyone who goes through Purgatory is already "saved," and going to Heaven. However it appears that the disagreement about purgatory is only a part of a larger disagreement about the nature of our salvation. Again I am going to try to be exhaustive so bear with me! It will be a long read, but I hope it is worth it.

So lets start at the beginning then. We both agree that the Word became flesh for the sake of us. We agree that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is complete, and nothing else can save us from our sins besides the grace of the Lord. So where does the disagreement come in? I am going to assume based on some of the things that you have said that you believe that when you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior you are saved. If I am wrong, please forgive me, but that is just what the majority of non-denominational Christians in my area believe.

So assuming this is indeed what you believe, this is where you and I differ. As a Catholic I do not believe this to be true (just as I am sure you find many things Catholics do untrue!). So lets break it down.
Lets start with why Catholics do not believe "once saved-always saved,"
John 15:6
If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

How do we stay in remain in Christ?

John 15:10
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

This of course leads into St. Peter's exhortation of us to be holy
1 Pet 1:15-17
15But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy." 17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

But what does this mean?

1 Cor 3:10-15
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

AHA! Here is where the teaching of purgatory became clear for me. For we are called to be holy as the Lord is Holy, what happens if we are not perfectly holy at our death when the Lord judges us according to "each man's work?" It is burned up and he will suffer loss, but "he himself will be saved!" While this process of burning up of our sinful nature and making ourselves holy can take place in life (we call it sanctification) it may also happen after death, which is purgatory. How is it burned? I would argue the mere presence of our God, as
Hebrews 12:29
for our "God is a consuming fire."
Pax

 

[MamaZ]

Purgatory has no effect on one's salvation, as everyone who goes through Purgatory is already "saved," and going to Heaven. However it appears that the disagreement about purgatory is only a part of a larger disagreement about the nature of our salvation. Again I am going to try to be exhaustive so bear with me! It will be a long read, but I hope it is worth it.

So lets start at the beginning then. We both agree that the Word became flesh for the sake of us. We agree that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is complete, and nothing else can save us from our sins besides the grace of the Lord. So where does the disagreement come in? I am going to assume based on some of the things that you have said that you believe that when you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior you are saved. If I am wrong, please forgive me, but that is just what the majority of non-denominational Christians in my area believe.

So assuming this is indeed what you believe, this is where you and I differ. As a Catholic I do not believe this to be true (just as I am sure you find many things Catholics do untrue!). So lets break it down.
Lets start with why Catholics do not believe "once saved-always saved,"
John 15:6
If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

How do we stay in remain in Christ?

John 15:10
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

This of course leads into St. Peter's exhortation of us to be holy
1 Pet 1:15-17
15But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy." 17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

But what does this mean?

1 Cor 3:10-15
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

AHA! Here is where the teaching of purgatory became clear for me. For we are called to be holy as the Lord is Holy, what happens if we are not perfectly holy at our death when the Lord judges us according to "each man's work?" It is burned up and he will suffer loss, but "he himself will be saved!" While this process of burning up of our sinful nature and making ourselves holy can take place in life (we call it sanctification) it may also happen after death, which is purgatory. How is it burned? I would argue the mere presence of our God, as
Hebrews 12:29
for our "God is a consuming fire."
Pax

I understand what is it you believe. With the purgatory part is that there is no place before one is called home to the Lord called purgatory..The sanctification happens here on earth. It is the works that are judged for rewards. not the man and his sanctification.. For when one is Saved He must be born again. Regenerated from the inside out by the Holy Spirit. Not changed from the outside in through works. Christ blood is what Justifies and man before God. Living faith will always have works that follow for we are saved unto Good works. How does one abide in Christ? By believing.. By trusting. By knowing that what Christ did for me on the cross has paid for every first and last sin for me and in Him alone am I justified.. no works that I can do will ever justify me before a holy God. Only the blood of Jesus can do this and He was slain once for all times. It is not I that will be Holy but the Holy one who lives inside of me. I am the very temple of the Living God. I am His workmanship..

 

[papist1]

If it seems like I ever do that, it is never intentional. I only want to know the truth for truth's sake. I would never sacrifice leading myself or anyone astray by posting verses to show "I am right, you are wrong" for the sake of compromising truth.





That is a classic argument.
But it is the perfect argument.

In regards to anything taught today by Catholics and or Othodox (depending on who one believes split from whom) for that matter.
If this in basic teachings then why did God allow almost the first 2/3 to almost 3/4 of Christianity to be led completely astray to most all Christians?

My response: I guess i do not know what you are speaking of specificaly in this paragraph concerning 2/3-3/4 being led astray. can you please expound on this a bit more and maybe give some clues as to the events you are speaking of? I would appreciate it.


Why wouldn't one be purified when one confesses and repents in this life after a sin is committed? Why does that need to happen later?

My response: I would say that if reparation(if necessary) and penance were not made, then there is still some attachment to that sin. i.e. if you were the guy that stole 50 billion from all those people, asked God for forgiveness and never made any attempt to pay it back, but hoarded it for yourself or others, then certainly there is reparation needed and penace to be made. This is why in scripture it talks about not approaching the alter if you have something against your brother, you are to go and make it right first.



Lets say one was Catholic and one went to confession regularly and was up to date on confessing sins and were "absolved" as you would say, why would there be a need for purgatory?

response: If they made a good penance, they most likely would not need it. You must understand, there cannot be any attachment to venial sin whatsoever, that would be unclean, and you must be clean and pure to enter.Don't misunderstand me, it is Christ and His sacrifice and blood that cleanses us ultimately in this final stage of sanctification, nothing more.

I will go even further, even if there was unconfessed sin, but one had the "intent" of going asap, why wouldn't that intent be honored as forgiveness, (assuming one is contrite and has repented)?
Wouldn't there be no need for a purgatory then?

response: That is taken into consideraion in this matter. If I were to sin and ask God personally for forgiveness for that mortal sin, then I am forgiven for that sin, but if reparation still needs to be done and I have not made a good penance then there remains an attachment to venial(non deadly sin) and would need to be cleansed from my soul.


Intent meaning like the intent of baptism in the Catholic Church. If one is getting baptized next Sunday, and one dies before Sunday arrives, the church still says that person "counts" as being baptised because of intent.

response: True, one's intent for coming into justification is quite a bit simpler. Our initial justification, normatively through faith and baptism and never apart from the grace of God, makes us white as snow, our sins are blotted out. The idea is that once we come to know Christ, we are expected to make right the wrongs of our past to the best of our abilities. Yet we are white as snow after entry into the body.

If we sin diliberately after becoming a Christian, we can fall into judgement and condemnation and we must make things right since we have the law written on our hearts and need to be obedient to Christ.

Am I making any sense, seems like I am rambling.

sounded great! peace, papist

Thank you papist for picking apart my post, I do mean that sincerely, I am not being sarcastic in the least

 

[Rhamiel]

Lets say one was Catholic and one went to confession regularly and was up to date on confessing sins and were "absolved" as you would say, why would there be a need for purgatory?

well there are still evil inclinations, like if I have a problem with lust, it do not sin, but it is something I struggle with
in heaven will I have such temptaions?
no so even weaknesses will be wiped away by Purgatory

 

[alphonsus12]

I understand what is it you believe. With the purgatory part is that there is no place before one is called home to the Lord called purgatory..
Well let's look at that!
The sanctification happens here on earth. It is the works that are judged for rewards. not the man and his sanctification.. For when one is Saved He must be born again. Regenerated from the inside out by the Holy Spirit. Not changed from the outside in through works.
Ok... however I know plenty of Protestant's who claim to be born again, who have still persisted in certain sinful ways, whether it be excessive drinking, or lust, or extreme profanity. Since we have free will God will not force us to change our ways. However I have known many good men and women who have struggled with a number of sins, and through the grace of prayer have been able to rid themselves of their respective vices.

Prayer would be considered a work as it still requires the decision of the individual to do it, one can chose not to pray. As we grow in personal holiness through prayer, whatever form it may take our faith will begin to manifest itself in other forms of good works, which also turn our eyes to God. Take for example helping the poor. If I help the poor simply because I know I am supposed to, what good does it do for me? However if while I am helping the poor I see Christ in them (Matthew 25:40), and love our neighbors as we love ourselves, it turns your attention to God, and becomes a prayer, which lifts our souls to God. Works for work's sake are empty, when it is for Christ sake, it draws us closer to Him. This is how works on earth help purify us and make us more holy.
Christ blood is what Justifies and man before God.
EXACTLY
Living faith will always have works that follow for we are saved unto Good works. How does one abide in Christ? By believing.. By trusting. By knowing that what Christ did for me on the cross has paid for every first and last sin for me and in Him alone am I justified.. no works that I can do will ever justify me before a holy God.
Here we agree, although many think there is a difference. Works only play the role that I stated above, they help us draw closer to God, as a form of prayer, even prayer itself and works of charity help us in the same way. As we open ourselves up to grace, we will become more able to give glory to our Father in Heaven!
Only the blood of Jesus can do this and He was slain once for all times. It is not I that will be Holy but the Holy one who lives inside of me. I am the very temple of the Living God. I am His workmanship..

I know I did not address purgatory at all, but we can work our way back to that discussion from here! And I have a feeling if I have adequately represented the Catholic faith the conversation will make its way back to that point.

 

[alphonsus12]

I understand what is it you believe. With the purgatory part is that there is no place before one is called home to the Lord called purgatory..
Well let's look at that!
The sanctification happens here on earth. It is the works that are judged for rewards. not the man and his sanctification.. For when one is Saved He must be born again. Regenerated from the inside out by the Holy Spirit. Not changed from the outside in through works.
Ok... however I know plenty of Protestant's who claim to be born again, who have still persisted in certain sinful ways, whether it be excessive drinking, or lust, or extreme profanity. Since we have free will God will not force us to change our ways. However I have known many good men and women who have struggled with a number of sins, and through the grace of prayer have been able to rid themselves of their respective vices.

Prayer would be considered a work as it still requires the decision of the individual to do it, one can chose not to pray. As we grow in personal holiness through prayer, whatever form it may take our faith will begin to manifest itself in other forms of good works, which also turn our eyes to God. Take for example helping the poor. If I help the poor simply because I know I am supposed to, what good does it do for me? However if while I am helping the poor I see Christ in them (Matthew 25:40), and love our neighbors as we love ourselves, it turns your attention to God, and becomes a prayer, which lifts our souls to God. Works for work's sake are empty, when it is for Christ sake, it draws us closer to Him. This is how works on earth help purify us and make us more holy.
Christ blood is what Justifies and man before God.
EXACTLY
Living faith will always have works that follow for we are saved unto Good works. How does one abide in Christ? By believing.. By trusting. By knowing that what Christ did for me on the cross has paid for every first and last sin for me and in Him alone am I justified.. no works that I can do will ever justify me before a holy God.
Here we agree, although many think there is a difference. Works only play the role that I stated above, they help us draw closer to God, as a form of prayer, even prayer itself and works of charity help us in the same way. As we open ourselves up to grace, we will become more able to give glory to our Father in Heaven!
Only the blood of Jesus can do this and He was slain once for all times. It is not I that will be Holy but the Holy one who lives inside of me. I am the very temple of the Living God. I am His workmanship..

I know I did not address purgatory at all, but we can work our way back to that discussion from here! And I have a feeling if I have adequately represented the Catholic faith the conversation will make its way back to that point.

 

[alphonsus12]

sorry about the double post everybody!

 

[MamaZ]

sorry about the double post everybody!

This forum has a mind of its own sometimes.. Double posts all the time..

 

[MamaZ]

I know I did not address purgatory at all, but we can work our way back to that discussion from here! And I have a feeling if I have adequately represented the Catholic faith the conversation will make its way back to that point.

Well many claim many things such as claiming to be born again. But if the fruit of that born again regeneration is not evident then I question if they were. Now those whom struggle with a sin I have no doubt.. For we are all born with sin in us.. This is where we see carnal and spiritual and babies and growth.. For a man who Is truly born again will not continue in a pattern of living in Sin.. Why won't they? Because they have Christ in them.. It is a sanctifying process that takes a whole life time lived until the day we put off of our fleshly bodies and put on our new and incorruptable bodies.. For those who have gone home to be with the Lord they have put off their fleshly bodies and are now clothed with their heavenly home awaiting the time when the ressurection comes and the corruptable is put off for all time and the incorruptable is here.. We need no purgatory for this to occur..

 

[alphonsus12]

Well many claim many things such as claiming to be born again. But if the fruit of that born again regeneration is not evident then I question if they were. Now those whom struggle with a sin I have no doubt.. For we are all born with sin in us.. This is where we see carnal and spiritual and babies and growth.. For a man who Is truly born again will not continue in a pattern of living in Sin.. Why won't they? Because they have Christ in them.. It is a sanctifying process that takes a whole life time lived until the day we put off of our fleshly bodies and put on our new and incorruptable bodies.. For those who have gone home to be with the Lord they have put off their fleshly bodies and are now clothed with their heavenly home awaiting the time when the ressurection comes and the corruptable is put off for all time and the incorruptable is here.. We need no purgatory for this to occur..

I'm not quite sure I follow. Do you mean that a person will cease living a sinful life when they are born again, or it will happen over time?

 

[MamaZ]

I'm not quite sure I follow. Do you mean that a person will cease living a sinful life when they are born again, or it will happen over time?

A truly born again believer will cease living a pattern of a sinful life for Christ in them is the sanctifying power that cleanes a man. It is a walk much like that of a baby.. They need feed the milk of the word and as they start to crawl a little more substance of the word and ect. It is a growing process. This is why we are to wash ourselves daily with the water of the word and meditate on the word night and day. The scriptures are our spiritual food.. This is how one growns. Now even adult trip and fall. This is where the conviction of Gods Spirit within us shows us our error and we confess and are forgiven and cleansed by our Father and the Blood of Jesus.

 

[alphonsus12]

A truly born again believer will cease living a pattern of a sinful life for Christ in them is the sanctifying power that cleanes a man. It is a walk much like that of a baby.. They need feed the milk of the word and as they start to crawl a little more substance of the word and ect. It is a growing process. This is why we are to wash ourselves daily with the water of the word and meditate on the word night and day. The scriptures are our spiritual food.. This is how one growns. Now even adult trip and fall. This is where the conviction of Gods Spirit within us shows us our error and we confess and are forgiven and cleansed by our Father and the Blood of Jesus.

Just so that I get a better understanding of our point of contention, how exactly is one born again? Is it how most no-denominational Christians define it, as the moment when one accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour, or similar to a Charismatic Christian's understanding, as the moment when one first experiences gifts of the Spirit like tongues or prophesy?

 

[katholikos]

Just so that I get a better understanding of our point of contention, how exactly is one born again? Is it how most no-denominational Christians define it, as the moment when one accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour, or similar to a Charismatic Christian's understanding, as the moment when one first experiences gifts of the Spirit like tongues or prophesy?

If you are looking for the Catholic POV, please read this magazine article. It is very informative:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0809btb.asp

 

[alphonsus12]

If you are looking for the Catholic POV, please read this magazine article. It is very informative

I am well aware of the Catholic point of view it is the point of view I hold as a Catholic, I was merely asking so that I would have a better understanding of the person I was talking to.

 

[katholikos]

I am well aware of the Catholic point of view it is the point of view I hold as a Catholic, I was merely asking so that I would have a better understanding of the person I was talking to.

Oops. Sorry. I didn't notice your Catholic icon.

 

[alphonsus12]

Oops. Sorry. I didn't notice your Catholic icon.

haha no prob.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Oops. Sorry. I didn't notice your Catholic icon.

An avatar of the pope would stand out more I would think.....