Questions for Catholics....

[svl3p]

Just something I've always wondered but was afraid to ask in case people thought I was attacking (I'm not)...

What exactly is purgatory? And where is it mentioned in the Bible?

 

[bbbbbbb]

As a non-Catholic who has been surrounded by Catholics my entire life, I will take a stab at your question.

First, purgatory is never mentioned in the Bible, although some Catholics think there may be an allusion to it in II Maccabees, but there is no direct mention of it or teaching concerning it in the Bible, nor is there any concerning Limbo, which was once taught in Catholic circles but now has generally been rejected.

There is an enormous divergence of opinion at this time in Catholicism regarding what and where purgatory is. Traditional teaching has been that it is a place where the faithful (Catholic) go prior to entering heaven. In purgatory one's venial sins are purged so that one is able to enter the presence of God. The process of purging is variously believed to either entail great torment and expiation for one's sins requiring varying amounts of time relative to one's sinfulness or, at the other extreme, it is compared with taking a refreshing shower to cleanse one's soul. The latter view is a relatively recent development.

Indulgences (see my thread on it) are given to shorten one's time in purgatory. If the latter perspective is accurate, then indulgences are really relatively useless. If the earlier perspective holds, then indulgences are of great value in diminishing the amount of suffering and time required in purgatory.

As I said, this is my understanding as a non-Catholic and I expect that Catholics will be able to provide their own, better, understandings, as well.

 

[Anoetos]

Speaking as an intermittent Catholic, I'd say that's both fair and accurate, I'll be interested to see what the more constant have to say.

 

[svl3p]

If it's not in the Bible where did it come from? Like...if we aren't told about it in God's word....then how did people "find out" about it?

 

[Anoetos]

I'll hazard the reply that while it is true that Catholics will maintain that nothing in their faith is contrary to the Bible, not everything in their faith must necessarily be taught in the Bible, the church being a living voice and testimony itself authoritative.

 

[katholikos]

Just something I've always wondered but was afraid to ask in case people thought I was attacking (I'm not)...

What exactly is purgatory? And where is it mentioned in the Bible?

Two things:
1) Here is an interesting Q & A on Purgatory: LINK
2) Here is what the official Catechism says about it:


III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606
​

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609

​

604 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.
605 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
606 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31.
607 2 Macc 12:46.
608 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.
609 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5.

 

[MrPolo]

Thank you katholikos.

Also, in lay terms, purgatory is simply the last stage of our purification that makes us fit for heaven. A "holiness without which no one will see the Lord" as Scripture says. Christ died for our sins that enabled us to get to heaven. But we still sin, do we not? Scripture says and gives examples of this. In heaven there is no sin. Scripture also says this because nothing unclean can enter it. De facto, there must be a final purging of all attachment to sin for those who will enter heaven, so that their wills be perfected and "without spot or blemish," as Scripture says.

One of the misunderstandings on Purgatory is that it is a "place" or that there is earthly "time" there. We do not know. Historically, one may find a writing here or there that refers to "place" or "time" but not in anything dogmatically defined. Similarly, you can find writing of Christians throughout history of people referring to heaven "above" or to hell "below", but we do not necessarily believe them to be located at some physical dimensional coordinates above or below us.

Indulgences are explained well in this article by apologist Jimmy Akin.

 

[svl3p]

I guess I just don't really get it...Jesus died to take away our sins...so from what I understand, we ARE clean in God's eyes..that was the whole point...we're already paid for...so why would we need to be made "cleaner"?

But I guess the important thing is the belief in Jesus.

Thanks for the replies

 

[MrPolo]

I guess I just don't really get it...Jesus died to take away our sins...so from what I understand, we ARE clean in God's eyes..that was the whole point...we're already paid for...so why would we need to be made "cleaner"?

But I guess the important thing is the belief in Jesus.

Thanks for the replies

We are not perfect for heaven. We still sin. Don't you? That characteristic must be removed because beings in heaven do not sin, nor do they have that tendency. Sin still exists on this earth. Jesus died that we might go to heaven, but we must still cooperate with His grace to achieve a "holiness without which no one will see God." (Heb 12:14). Paul himself admits that he has "not already been made perfect." (Phil. 3:12) This is about sanctification (or holiness toward perfection) not justification (which means we are bound for heaven).

Are you familiar with Protestant Dr. John MacArthur? This week he just got done preaching about "remaining sin" after justification.

 

[svl3p]

I realize I still sin. But Jesus dying on the cross took away my sin...past, present, and future. I realize that it's not like a "get out of jail free card"...but if we're still "dirty" in God's eyes..what what the point of Jesus dying on the cross?

2 Corinthians 5:21 says "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

Because of Jesus, we are clean and righteous in God's eyes.

Ephesians 2:8,9 says "
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."


We are saved by faith...not by our actions...and if our good actions can't get us INTO heaven, how can our sinful actions keep us out, once we've been paid for?


1Peter 2:24 says "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed."


When Jesus died, He took away our sins. If He took them away, then it's reasonable to assume they are gone...and if they are gone, how can they keep us out of heaven?They don't exist any more.

 

[MrPolo]

I realize I still sin. But Jesus dying on the cross took away my sin...past, present, and future. I realize that it's not like a "get out of jail free card"...but if we're still "dirty" in God's eyes..what what the point of Jesus dying on the cross?

2 Corinthians 5:21 says "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

Because of Jesus, we are clean and righteous in God's eyes.

Ephesians 2:8,9 says "
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."


We are saved by faith...not by our actions...and if our good actions can't get us INTO heaven, how can our sinful actions keep us out, once we've been paid for?


1Peter 2:24 says "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed."


When Jesus died, He took away our sins. If He took them away, then it's reasonable to assume they are gone...and if they are gone, how can they keep us out of heaven?They don't exist any more.

Everything in this post is addressed in the last couple posts. If you realize you still sin, then we can all agree that between now and your entrance into heaven, God will purify you of that remaining tendency. And that's what we call Purgatory.

 

[svl3p]

Yes, I agree we still sin....But I just am not convinced that we must undergo a "purification" process in between death and heaven...I don't see where it says that, Biblically...

You quoted this from the Catholic Catechism:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

But..1 John says this:

1 John 1:7 (NIV) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus purifies us from ALL sin..not past sin...ALL sin...His blood was already shed (when He died), therefore I believe that I've already been purified...If I've already been purified, why would I need to be made "more pure" or "re-purified" (is that a word?)....wouldn't Jesus' sacrifice be enough? Otherwise what was the point of it all. We could still be killing goats and birds to be "right" with God, and God could have saved Himself the heartache of giving up His Son.

 

[MrPolo]

Yes, I agree we still sin....But I just am not convinced that we must undergo a "purification" process in between death and heaven...I don't see where it says that, Biblically...

You quoted this from the Catholic Catechism:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

But..1 John says this:

1 John 1:7 (NIV) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus purifies us from ALL sin..not past sin...ALL sin...His blood was already shed (when He died), therefore I believe that I've already been purified...If I've already been purified, why would I need to be made "more pure" or "re-purified" (is that a word?)....wouldn't Jesus' sacrifice be enough? Otherwise what was the point of it all. We could still be killing goats and birds to be "right" with God, and God could have saved Himself the heartache of giving up His Son.

Yes, only by Christ's blood is sin forgiven and souls made perfect. This would include any tendencies to sin purged. No one is arguing otherwise.

 

[svl3p]

Yes, only by Christ's blood is sin forgiven and souls made perfect. This would include any tendencies to sin purged. No one is arguing otherwise.

That's the point I'm trying to make...Since all sin is forgiven and our souls are made perfect and pure..why would purgatory be needed? That's what I don't understand.

 

[Anoetos]

I think svl's point is that Jesus either paid it all or He didn't.

If He did then Purgatory is unnecessary.

The idea that He somehow did, but that we still need to augment the sacrifice with purgation after death doesn't compute.

 

[svl3p]

I think svl's point is that Jesus either paid it all or He didn't.

If He did then Purgatory is unnecessary.

The idea that He somehow did, but that we still need to augment the sacrifice with purgation after death doesn't compute.

Exactly...thank you

 

[Rhamiel]

That's the point I'm trying to make...Since all sin is forgiven and our souls are made perfect and pure..why would purgatory be needed? That's what I don't understand.

two things
One, the Catholic Church views the purification of the soul as not happening in an instant, but over time, it is God working within us, changing us, making us more like Him, but it happens over time, we view some of this time taking place after we die, Purgatory is not something seperate from being made pure by Christs sacrifice, it is just the part of that which happens after we die

two, let me try to explain it this way, lets say I hate Bob, I know I should have nothing but Christian love and charity for Bob, I ask God to make me stronger so I might get over this little envy and strife, but I go to my death hating Bob, I love Jesus and asked Him to forgive me while I was alive, but I still die with hate for Bob in my heart, ok, I am now in Heaven, and so is Bob,
do I still hate Bob?
no ofcourse not,
but I died hateing Bob
so that means, at some point between Death and Heaven, God removed some sin and/or the effects of sin from my heart, no unclean thing can enter for heaven and how i felt about Bob was an unclean emotion
Catholics call this time between death and heaven (if it is time like we understand it at all I do not know) Purgatory, because Catholics like latin sounding names for stuff lol we made up the name so it would be easier to refer to this state of being.
Jesus talks about how Blasphamy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the next, this seems to imply that some sins will be forgiven in the next world
St.Pauls letter to the corinthians, he talks about works being tested with fire, and the same fire that burns the straw refines the gold
just a bunch of little things, there is not a "home run" bible verse for Purgatory, just a bunch of little referances that make me think that it is real, you have to look at them all together

 

[svl3p]

I think we'll just need to agree to disagree on this one...cause the way i interpret the Bible makes me believe that there is no need for purgatory, nor yet does it actually mention purgatory..but this is just getting repetitive so I don't see a point to continuing the discussion..I see a bit more about what exactly it is and why CAtholics believe it's needed, I just don't agree.

 

[MamaZ]

It is not purgatory that cleanses a man from their sin. No where do the Apostles teach us about Purgatory in Gods book.

 

[Rhamiel]

I think we'll just need to agree to disagree on this one...cause the way i interpret the Bible makes me believe that there is no need for purgatory, nor yet does it actually mention purgatory..but this is just getting repetitive so I don't see a point to continuing the discussion..I see a bit more about what exactly it is and why CAtholics believe it's needed, I just don't agree.

sorry, I did not mean to get reptitive, ok argree to disagree, have a good day and I hope my post helped a little but lol

It is not purgatory that cleanses a man from their sin. No where do the Apostles teach us about Purgatory in Gods book.

purgatory is not a seperate thing like you are trying to make it look like...