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Questions about "The Queen of Heaven"

RINO 72

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I am a non-denominational Christian who posted a thread in that community section about the Nightline special on Mary last night.I had many respectful replies and was asked to post those questions (without my additional comments) here.I don't come to "convert" nor do I come to be "converted",so let's just have an easy discussion.

Does the Catholic Church worship Mary?


Has Mary always played this large of a role in the Catholic Church?

How do Catholics sidestep the fact the Bible tells us Jesus had younger siblings including two brothers that became apostles?

Is your faith alone in Jesus Christ enough to secure your salvation?


Again, Im not trying to start a big argument here and I know you have been asked these questions a thousand times.Thank you for your time.










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Vendetta

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Glad you came over to our forum. Don't have time to respond to all this, but you will get many responses before I return. I'll address the added question. Do you mean "is faith alone all we need to attain salvation?", or "is having faith in only Jesus all that is needed for salvation?"
 
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MikeK

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Does the Catholic Church worship Mary?

No.


Has Mary always played this large of a role in the Catholic Church?

I don't really know. She certainly played a large role in Christ's life. I'm not sure what sort of Marian devotions if any the earliest Christians had. A couple hundred years after Christ's death love for Mary was commonplace.

How do Catholics sidestep the fact the Bible tells us Jesus had younger siblings including two brothers that became apostles?

Umm, they "sidestep" it by knowing what those passages mean:)

Is your faith alone in Jesus Christ enough to secure your salvation?

In as much as a person that has faith in Christ will love Christ and keep His commands, sure. Simply making a proclomation that we accept Him as out Lord and Savior isn't a ticket to heaven though. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
 
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RINO 72

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Glad you came over to our forum. Don't have time to respond to all this, but you will get many responses before I return. I'll address the added question. Do you mean "is faith alone all we need to attain salvation?", or "is having faith in only Jesus all that is needed for salvation?"
Sola Fide.Are you saved by Faith in Christ and nothing else? Or are "works" added into it?
 
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Virgil the Roman

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I am a non-denominational Christian who posted a thread in that community section about the Nightline special on Mary last night.I had many respectful replies and was asked to post those questions (without my additional comments) here.
Cool.

I don't come to "convert" nor do I come to be "converted",so let's just have an easy discussion.
I've heard that before. ;)

Does the Catholic Church worship Mary?
No. We give her proper honour, respect, and "veneration" as is due, right, properly, and justly, to her being the Blessed Mother of God. Divine Worship Catholics give only to the Blessed Trinity alone, absolutely. And do not let any one else tell you different. This is what we as Catholics believe. Other non-Catholics try to fudge around this issue and attempt to "speak for" Catholics whenever they cannot do so.


Again to reiterate: Divine Worship, called "Latria" in greek is due to and given absolutely, solely, and positively to God alone. "Doulia" (the greek word for veneration) is given to the saints. "Hyper-doulia" is the highest form of veneration that is reserved for the Blessed Virgin Mary, as she is rightfully and she alone is: the Holy Mother of God. However, saints and the Blessed Mother of God are absolutely never given "Latria." The Holy Roman Catholic Church has banned and has condemned giving Latria to anyone or anything that is not God.


Has Mary always played this large of a role in the Catholic Church?

Yes. It is the devotion and honour that the Blessed Apostles held for the Blessed Mother of God that we hold and espouse even unto today. :)

How do Catholics sidestep the fact the Bible tells us Jesus had younger siblings including two brothers that became apostles?

Step-siblings; or half-siblings of Joseph from a previous marriage. Such siblings were recognised and held to be no different than full-blooded children. Sacred Tradition and Catholic Dogma teaches us that our Lady was perpetually a Virgin until Death. This we know from the Apostles and Early Church Fathers themselves via Sacred Tradition.

Is your faith alone in Jesus Christ enough to secure your salvation?

Catholics have never ascribed to Sola Fide; it is a heresy. "Faith alone" has never saved any-one nor will it ever do so. The Church of God has condemned the doctrine of "being saved by 'faith alone'" as an error and heresy; contrary to the teachings of Holy Scripture, the Blessed Apostles, Sacred Tradition, and the Early Church Fathers.


Catholics have always believe and receive from Holy Scripture that one is not "justified by faith alone;" rather in the words of Blessed Apostle St James in his epistle:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?"
—St James II, xxi-xiv.

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Hopefully this helps! :thumbsup:

Pax Christ. :wave:

-Virgil the Roman
 
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Vendetta

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Alright, I have a few more minutes.

Does the Catholic Church worship Mary?

Worship is something that is reserved for the most high God alone. We do not worship Mary as she is not part of the Godhead. We do venerate Mary and all the saints. Veneration is just honoring, and honoring someone is not wrong. I don't need to tell you about God commanding us to honor our father and mother. We do the same with our heavenly mother, Mary, who became the mother of Christians by bearing our Savior.


Has Mary always played this large of a role in the Catholic Church?
I'm not completely sure. I do know that focuses of religion change over time. For example, the Bible wasn't canonized in the early period, so it played no role in any church. And certainly the scriptures that did exist couldn't be read by the masses. Devotions were all they had, and very early on in Christianity we have the Church Fathers saying awfully honorable things about Mary.

How do Catholics sidestep the fact the Bible tells us Jesus had younger siblings including two brothers that became apostles?
The language used to write those verses did not have separate words for "brothers" and "cousins". Others will shed more light on this, but long story short we use the Bible to show that it really means cousins by the context it uses.

Edit: There's debate about whether the "brothers" were cousins or, as Virgil has noted, "half-brothers" by a previous marriage Joseph had.

Is your faith alone in Jesus Christ enough to secure your salvation?
Faith alone in the Protestant sense doesn't get us to Heaven. There's too much in the Gospels about Jesus saying if we don't follow his commandments we are in a bad way. Basically, we believe we are saved by grace through faith as proven by love (works of charity). If you don't have the works, you don't have the faith.

Pax
 
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Virgil the Roman

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My last question speaks of being "Born Again" not merely reciting a "salvation" or "sinners" prayer.

We are "born again" through the grace God imparts unto us in the Holy Sacrament of Baptism. Baptism makes one "born again" by the grace of God; washing away original sin and any others sins one has upon one's soul, whether mortal or venial.

Praying a "Sinner's Prayer" has no place in Christianity; indeed, it is altogether foreign and alien to the Church of God for the last nine-teen centuries.
 
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Irenaeus

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Hi RINO, welcome to OBOB!

Many of the responses thus far have been thorough, but there are some points I think maybe would be helpful to make in the discussion. I am going to select two of your questions because I think they are of special importance at the present time.

Has Mary always played this large of a role in the Catholic Church?

First, the special in question was just that, a special. Like all specializations, whether in academia or in a television interview, unless one acquires a larger breadth of knowledge, one may be led to believe that "that's that" to a certain topic. It's amazing how common this has become in the soundbite culture of today, in the History Channel generation (my generation).

I did like that one of the people in the special did say, "I believe that only God heals. But I believe also that he can heal through other people." I think that sums up precisely what we Catholics believe in terms of what the Virgin Mary, and all our deceased brothers of sisters (who live in the Lord, interceding for us) do.

The Blessed Virgin has played a huge role in the Catholic Church since the very beginning. Irenaeus in the 2nd century ascribed to her the title of "The New Eve" because she unlocked by her obedience to the angel what Eve locked by her obedience, that is, relationship with God and entrance into heaven.

The furor surrounding the 3rd Ecumenical Council of Ephesus in 431 indicates the fever pitch that Marian Devotion had taken all across the Christian world. Everyone, from the Latin/Germanic West to the Greek East and the Syriac Far East had something to offer in terms of who the Mother of God was, but it was all in terms of Christology. This discussion was universal. The reactions were strong. What this indicates to historians, even beyond the conclusions of the Council itself, is that Marian devotion was already universal and widespread, or else the controversy surrounding the title "Theotokos" would not have given rise to mass riots and civil disorder. In the maxim of Bl. John Henry Newman, no dogma is defined until it is attacked, and in this case, it remains clear that some sort of pious Christian devotion to the Mother of God was in place since Apostolic Christianity. Add to that the findings in archaeology of Churches, statues and mosaics in every corner of the Christian world, and it is clear that she occupies a huge role in the prayer life of Christians in all Christendom.

I make this mention of the universality of the phenomenon because if one believes that Marian devotion arose as a result of the Papacy or some sort of late abberation, one would be mistaken, because it was from the first discernible moments of Christian devotion, devotion to Mary as Mother of Our Savior was a universal phenomenon that transcended linguistic, political and cultural boundaries. Even if one disputes it's theology, it was endemic to Christendom as it emerged from the Catacombs and was permitted to thrive and air out its theological laundry.

How do Catholics sidestep the fact the Bible tells us Jesus had younger siblings including two brothers that became apostles?

Early Christians by and large did not interpret these passages in a manner that would indicate that they believed that Mary had several children. Mind you, these were native speakers of the NT Kione, and many had known, especially in the 2nd century, direct contacts of James, John, and the other apostles. Out of several different hypotheses in the ancient world, at least three out of four, one of whom was skilled in Biblical languages, Jerome, favored the idea that Mary had no other children, and one Greek, Epiphanius, favored the idea that these brethren were Joseph's children from a former marriage.

The only one to support this conclusion that Mary had multiple children is Tertullian, whose cause was taken up by Helvidius, who in turn was fought vigorously by Jerome (and much of Christendom, including Arians). One can see then that the idea of Our Lord having siblings has always been a minority position, and that the vast majority of Christian teachers took for granted that the passages were interpreted otherwise.

Even the touted history of Hegesippus, (how legendary it is another matter) in the 2nd century, incidates a belief among Christians that Joseph had a brother named Clopas, who had James and John as his sons. In this case, Jerome's interpretation of the text as "brothers" referring to the more general Semitic term, meaning, "next of kin" or "relatives" or even "cousins" gains more weight.

I hope this helps.
 
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Virgil the Roman

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Do Catholics believe you must be born again?

Insofar as receiving the Sacrament of baptism as requisite for salvation: Yes. Insofar, as whatever Protestants mean by it: I would say, probably not.
 
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RINO 72

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We are "born again" through the grace God imparts unto us in the Holy Sacrament of Baptism. Baptism makes one "born again" by the grace of God; washing away original sin and any others sins one has upon one's soul, whether mortal or venial.

Praying a "Sinner's Prayer" has no place in Christianity; indeed, it is altogether foreign and alien to the Church of God for the last 19 centuries.
We are in full agreement with the last part of this.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Do Catholics believe you must be born again?


:wave:Hi, thanks for coming in - per our message.

Born again means the regeneration through baptism.
We are born again into the death and resurrection of Christ.

Anyway - this site may be of interest since it is about the early Christians and Mary.

Mary in the Early Church - Dr. Mark Miravalle


The first historic indications of the existing veneration of Mary carried on from the Apostolic Church is manifested in the Roman catacombs. As early as the end of the first century to the first half of the second century, Mary is depicted in frescos in the Roman catacombs both with and without her divine Son. Mary is depicted as a model of virginity with her Son; at the Annunciation; at the adoration of the Magi; and as the orans, the "praying one," the woman of prayer. (1)

pentecost.jpg






















A very significant fresco found in the catacombs of St. Agnes depicts Mary situated between St. Peter and St. Paul with her arms outstretched to both. This fresco reflects, in the language of Christian frescoes, the earliest symbol of Mary as "Mother of the Church." Whenever St. Peter and St. Paul are shown together, it is symbolic of the one Church of Christ, a Church of authority and evangelization, a Church for both Jew and Gentile. Mary's prominent position between Sts. Peter and Paul illustrates the recognition by the Apostolic Church of the maternal centrality of the Savior's Mother in his young Church.
It is also clear from the number of representations of the Blessed Virgin and their locations in the catacombs that the Mother of Jesus was also recognized for her maternal intercession of protection and defense. Her image was present on tombs, as well as on the large central vaults of the catacombs. Clearly, the early Christians dwelling in the catacombs prayed to Mary as intercessor to her Son for special protection and for motherly assistance. As early as the first century to the first half of the second century, Mary's role as Spiritual Mother was recognized and her protective intercession was invoked. (2)


AS you can see, the catacombs from the early Christians are a wealth of information [and more in the site if you want to read]

It shows us she was the Perpetual Virgin, and that she stood between Peter and Paul as part of the Church and evidently a place of honor since St Peter is also depicted holding keys and being honored in catacombs as well.

This also shows us how she was venerated with and without her Son in depictions.
So it is evident that her honor is from Christ, but that pics without Him show it was not just pictorials of the Christ child, but His Mother.

There is so much in the early Church that would fascinate you.:thumbsup: :wave:

I love archeology and history.


 
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Incariol

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Pointing out that St. Jerome wrote a defense of the perpetual virginity of Mary, Against Helvidius.

I just find it amusing that all the arguments used in modern times for the Mother of God having intercourse (brothers and sisters, the "until") were all soundly debunked ~1,600 years ago.
biggrin.gif


The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary

"
1. I was requested by certain of the brethren not long ago to reply to a pamphlet written by one Helvidius. I have deferred doing so, not because it is a difficult matter to maintain the truth and refute an ignorant boor who has scarce known the first glimmer of learning, but because I was afraid my reply might make him appear worth defeating.



There was the further consideration that a turbulent fellow (the only individual in the world who thinks himself both priest and layman, one who, as has been said, thinks that eloquence consists in wordiness and considers speaking ill of anyone to be the witness of a good conscience), would begin to blaspheme worse than ever if opportunity of discussion were afforded him. He would stand as it were on a pedestal, and would publish his views far and wide.



There was reason also to fear that when truth failed him he would assail his opponents with the weapon of abuse.



But all these motives for silence, though just, have more justly ceased to influence me, because of the scandal caused to the brethren who were disgusted at his ravings. The axe of the Gospel must therefore be now laid to the root of the barren tree, and both it and its fruitless foliage cast into the fire, so that Helvidius -- who has never learnt to speak -- may at length learn to hold his tongue.


2. I must call upon the Holy Spirit to express His meaning by my mouth and defend the virginity of Blessed Mary. I must call upon the Lord Jesus to guard the sacred lodging of the womb in which He abode for ten months from all suspicion of sexual intercourse. And I must also entreat God the Father to show that the mother of His Son, who was a mother before she was a bride, continued a virgin after her son was born." http://www.christianforums.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=58013943
 
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thereselittleflower

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I am a non-denominational Christian who posted a thread in that community section about the Nightline special on Mary last night.I had many respectful replies and was asked to post those questions (without my additional comments) here.I don't come to "convert" nor do I come to be "converted",so let's just have an easy discussion.

Does the Catholic Church worship Mary?

We honor her . . We do not worship her with worship due God alone.

Has Mary always played this large of a role in the Catholic Church?

Yes. She has always played a very large role in the Church from the very beginning. One of the earliest prayers is the Sub Tuum "We Fly to Your Patronage (protection)" which is prayed to Mary and which was prayed universally through Christendom in the first centuries.

How do Catholics sidestep the fact the Bible tells us Jesus had younger siblings including two brothers that became apostles?

No side step. THe word brother in Greek has many meanings, and not just blood siblings from the same mother.

It is the constant, clear testimony of the Church from the Apostles forward that Mary remained a virgin all her life.

The Early Christians called her Ever Virgin.


Is your faith alone in Jesus Christ enough to secure your salvation?

Only Jesus saves. One does not have faith in Mary or any human as one has faith in Jesus.

But, the flip side of the coin is this: Two were involved in the fall - Adam and Eve . not just Adam.. Two are involved in our redemption - the NEW Adam and the New Eve. Mary participated in our redemption as Eve participated in our fall.


Again, Im not trying to start a big argument here and I know you have been asked these questions a thousand times.Thank you for your time.


We are happy to explain, especially when one sincerely seeks to understand.
 
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Vendetta

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I always hear that RC believe that one must have works to be saved,can anyone here elaborate on the different works that is require in your religion to gain salvation.Thanks

Accept God's grace (through the sacraments He has given us, particularly baptism and the Eucharist) and live by His commandments. If you fail to live by His commandments, then confess your sins and be reconciled to Him.
 
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xfisherman

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Accept God's grace (through the sacraments He has given us, particularly baptism and the Eucharist) and live by His commandments. If you fail to live by His commandments, then confess your sins and be reconciled to Him.
Thanks for your reply Vendetta,I understand you have seven sacraments my question:
a)Are they all equally important?
b)If you miss one are a person still saved?
c)Some sacraments are a one time affair eg.Baptism,how about other sacraments,do you have to continously work on them?
d)What if you don't continuously do Eucharist,are one still saved?
e)So the RCs are to keep the 10 commandments all the time,what if you break them,is that mortal sin? If yes,how do you get forgiven for that?
 
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