Questions about "The Queen of Heaven"

[Foundthelight]

I always hear that RC believe that one must have works to be saved,can anyone here elaborate on the different works that is require in your religion to gain salvation.Thanks

Works alone do not save any more than faith alone saves.

BTW, our "religion" is Christianity.

Let me look at the subject of works in relation to salvation.

First we have the words of James;

Jas 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
Jas 2:17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder.
Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
Jas 2:23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Jas 2:25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. RSV

Did James come up with this out of thin air? No, he got it from the mouth of our Lord.

Mat 25:31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
Mat 25:33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
Mat 25:35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
Mat 25:41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
Mat 25:42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
Mat 25:46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." RSV

When James and we speak of works as being necessary for salvation it is based on, in part, this passage from Matthew.

There is no such thing as a list of salvic works. Salvation comes from faith in the Lord and carrying out His word in our daily life.

If we say; "I believe!", but our lives are not showing the fruits of that faith, then we need to look at that faith and understand that it is barren and does not lead to eternal life.

From Matthew 7

Mat 7:9 Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
Mat 7:12 So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
Mat 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Mat 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.
Mat 7:21 "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'
Mat 7:24 "Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock;
Mat 7:25 and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand;
Mat 7:27 and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it." RSV

Do you get a feel now for what is meant by "works"?

Not every one has the same gifts of the spirit, not every one has the ability to do the same deeds in obedience to the words of the Lord. We are all commanded by Jesus to obey and do what we can in support of the above passages.

Any one who claims; "My faith has saved me!" and ignores these words of Jesus and James is a fool and is in for an eternal disappointment.

 

[xfisherman]

Thanks for your reply Vendetta,I understand you have seven sacraments my question:
a)Are they all equally important?
b)If you miss one are a person still saved?
c)Some sacraments are a one time affair eg.Baptism,how about other sacraments,do you have to continously work on them?
d)What if you don't continuously do Eucharist,are one still saved?
e)So the RCs are to keep the 10 commandments all the time,what if you break them,is that mortal sin? If yes,how do you get forgiven for that?

Sorry,I will post this in another thread.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I always hear that RC believe that one must have works to be saved,can anyone here elaborate on the different works that is require in your religion to gain salvation.Thanks

We don't separate works from faith and faith from works.

The passage quoted from James above spells out how faith alone cannot save. By the same token, works alone cannot save either.


You must have both. They are two sides of the same coin.

The works referred are what we call Acts of Mercy.

Here is something I put together quite a while back that may help explain this balance - I think it will need its own post.

 

[thereselittleflower]

A Cautionary Tale


One day, a group of souls suddenly found themselves standing before the Gates of Heaven and Jesus was there before them.

Some appeared with great expectancy on their faces, others looked a little doubtful.

Jesus asked them all . . . "Did you do the will of My Father?"

One, smiling with expectancy, eagerly said "LORD! I cast out many demons in You Name!" Another shouted out, "LORD! I prophesied to many in Your Name!", and another declared "LORD! I did mighty deeds in Your Name!", and others started chiming in with all the wondrous things they had done in His Name.

Some, though, were looking around, feeling like they were on the outside, because they had never really done any of these things. A few were looking down at the ground, not daring to look up.

Jesus held up His hands for silence.

After all the clamoring had died down, and everyone was waiting in silence, Jesus said to them

"But did you do My Father's will?"

Now, puzzled expressions began to appear on the faces of those who had just jumped in declaring the great and mighty things they had done in Jesus' Name. No one said anything for a few moments. . . . . . Then one gathered up enough bravery to ask, "What do you mean? Didn't we do the Father's will when we did all these mighty and wonderful things?" Others began to join in adding their assent to the question that was perplexing them.

Jesus waited for the murmuring to die down. Then He asked:

"Did you give a glass of water to one of these little ones in My Name?"

He waited . . hands began to go up. The ones who had been so loudly proclaiming their mighty deeds, began to look around them, their perplexity growing.

"Did you give food to one of these little ones in My Name when they were hungry?"

More hands went up . . it was dead silent. Those who had first clamored so expectantly, grew even more perplexed as they looked around at those who were raising their hands.

"Did you clothe one of these little ones in My Name when they were naked?"

Hands began to go up again . . Again, those who had so expectantly declared their might deeds at first, looked around a little concerned now, and very perplexed.

"Did you take in one of these little ones in My Name when they were a stranger?"

Again, in the silence, the soft sound of hands being raised was all that could be heard, and this time some of those who had first declared their mighty deeds, raised their hands too . . now with a more humble expression on their faces. The others looked on, some with a growing sense of alarm; but others with a confidence that even though they didn't understand what was going on, they didn't need to worry about such "works", for they knew they were saved by grace through faith . .these works were totally unnecessary. A smugness began to settle over them as they thought they had everything under control.

"Did you visit one of these little ones in My Name when they were sick?"

And the scene repeated itself as the soft silent sound of hands rising in the air answered. Those who had first been so sure in their expectancy, yet had never raised their hands, found themselves divided in their reactions to the unfolding situation. Some were showing signs of fear, realizing that something was indeed wrong, and though they tried to hide it, you could see it in their eyes. The others became even more certain they had nothing to fear, for they didn't believe in works. Works couldn't save, works couldn't justify one. They had nothing to worry about! And their smugness grew.

"Did you visit one of these little ones in My Name when they were in prison?"

Again, that silent, swoosh of hands rising in the air. Again, the look of fear in the eyes of some who had not raised their hands, and the look of smug confidence increasing in the eyes of those who didn't believe works did anything at all.


When the last hand was lowered, Jesus stood there in silence, looking at each one in turn. Some who had been worried right at first, even those who had looked at the ground because they had done no mighty works, now locked eyes with Jesus and saw His smiling at them and their eyes smiled back wrapped in peace and love.

Those who had first bragged about their mighty deeds found they couldn't look Jesus in the eye, turning away when His eyes found theirs. Those who had smugly allowed themselves to feel confident because they "knew" that they needed no such works to be saved since faith was enough, found no smiles in Jesus' eyes for them, and could not keep their eyes locked on His. When they looked away, their eyes showed the first signs of real fear.

After all was done, Jesus spoke again:

"Those who raised your hands, come here to My right hand"

All those who had raised their hands made their way, peaceful and calm, to Jesus' right hand and stood there gazing on their Lord.

Then Jesus spoke again,

"Those who didn't raise your hands, come here and stand on My left."

Even though they were fearful of what this meant, and wanted to join the others on the right, they were compelled to obey. They gathered on His left, many nervous, some trembling.

When everyone was once again silently still, Jesus spoke again, first to those on His right,

"When you gave one of these little ones water when they were thirsty, food when they were hungry, clothes when they were naked; when you took them in when they were a stranger, when you visited them when they were sick or in prison . . .

Jesus paused, and looked at each and every one of those standing on His right, then He proceeded, softly and gently with great love .. .

" . . . . you did it unto Me."

They all gazed at Him with joyful awe, their faces radiant. . . .

Jesus continued, booming with great joy . .

"Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. Enter thou into the Joy of the Lord!"

And the gates of Heaven swung open with a mighty 'swoosh', followed by the angels who came out to usher them into heaven, with rapturous expressions, shining bright.




When all had entered, the gates of heaven closed, . . . the sound echoed in the silence.

Then Jesus slowly turned His attention to those on His left, with a look of deep sadness on His face. He looked at them and said.

"When you gave not one of these little ones water when they were thirsty, food when they were hungry, clothes when they were naked; when you took them not in when they were a stranger, when you visited them not when they were sick or in prison . . .

Jesus paused, and looked at each and every one of those standing on His left; then He proceeded, clearly and uncompromisingly .. .

" . . . . you did it not unto Me."

Fear filled the hearts and minds of those standing there, looking at the stern face of the Lord. Those who had held, to the bitter end, on to their belief that one could not be saved by works, that works were absolutely unnecessary for one's salvation, were in utter confusion. Hadn't they done what Jesus wanted? They wanted to cry out again 'Look at our ministries! Look at our mighty deeds! Look at how the power of the Holy Spirit moved through us! We brought so many souls to You!' But they could say nothing.

Jesus just looked them in the eyes, and all they could find was sternness, like steel.

The words they dreaded to hear finally came . .

‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Go away to eternal punishment!"


And in the suddenness of the moment, with weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, they found themselves flung far from Jesus and heaven . . . . . . . . . . . . .




. . . . . . never to see either again.





A Cautionary Tale

Matthew 7:21-23
Matthew 25:31-46​

 

[New_Believer]

Faith alone in the Protestant sense doesn't get us to Heaven. There's too much in the Gospels about Jesus saying if we don't follow his commandments we are in a bad way. Basically, we believe we are saved by grace through faith as proven by love (works of charity). If you don't have the works, you don't have the faith.

Sorry to jump in late but I think most protestants would agree with this. The Bible states that faith without works is dead therefore if someone does not show the fruits of the Spirit they likely never had the faith to begin with. We believe that putting your faith in Christ should also be accompanied by repenting of your sins. Good works will most certainly follow if there is true faith, as the NT talks about good works all the time. But we do not believe that works alone is enough because none of us are good enough to make it into heaven on our own. I think that's why protestants and similar belief systems put so much emphasis on faith. We believe that the works we do are a result of grace. Works are empty without faith. The Bible says that our works (alone) are like filthy rags.

 

[Foundthelight]

Sorry to jump in late but I think most protestants would agree with this. The Bible states that faith without works is dead therefore if someone does not show the fruits of the Spirit they likely never had the faith to begin with. We believe that putting your faith in Christ should also be accompanied by repenting of your sins. Good works will most certainly follow if there is true faith, as the NT talks about good works all the time. But we do not believe that works alone is enough because none of us are good enough to make it into heaven on our own.

What I placed in bold type above is a common misconception arising out of the Reformation and its concepts of "Irresistible Grace" and a Sovereign God who plans out and dictates everything that has and will happen our lives. (That is probably a hyper-Calvinist position on Sovereignty, but I heard it preached many times from the pulpit when I attend services as a Protestant.)

We do not believe that God forces us to do good works like puppets on a string. We believe that we cooperate with His Grace and do these things in obedience and cooperation. If it was otherwise, then how could he condemn us for inaction?

 

[Foundthelight]

We seem to have drifted from the OP which is about Mary into Works. Perhaps this thread should be split or a new one started to answer questions about works?

 

[New_Believer]

What I placed in bold type above is a common misconception arising out of the Reformation and its concepts of "Irresistible Grace" and a Sovereign God who plans out and dictates everything that has and will happen our lives. (That is probably a hyper-Calvinist position on Sovereignty, but I heard it preached many times from the pulpit when I attend services as a Protestant.)

We do not believe that God forces us to do good works like puppets on a string. We believe that we cooperate with His Grace and do these things in obedience and cooperation. If it was otherwise, then how could he condemn us for inaction?

I can't really disagree with you here. I do believe we have free will.

 

[Davidnic]

On the works issue The Church and some groups representing facets of some non-Catholic denominations (Lutheran and Methodist ) have agreed that we are not as far apart on the issue of Justification as once thought. Link: Joint Declaration on Justification.

Later agreement the agreement between the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation was joined by the World Methodist Council: link

 

[Dark_Lite]

It should be noted, however, that the Lutherans that signed that aren't exactly representative of conservative Lutheran thought on the issue. The "Confessional" Lutherans still disagree with Catholicism on the matter.

 

[Davidnic]

It should be noted, however, that the Lutherans that signed that aren't exactly representative of conservative Lutheran thought on the issue. The "Confessional" Lutherans still disagree with Catholicism on the matter.

Yep.

 

[Vendetta]

Thanks for your reply Vendetta,I understand you have seven sacraments my question:
a)Are they all equally important?
b)If you miss one are a person still saved?
c)Some sacraments are a one time affair eg.Baptism,how about other sacraments,do you have to continously work on them?
d)What if you don't continuously do Eucharist,are one still saved?
e)So the RCs are to keep the 10 commandments all the time,what if you break them,is that mortal sin? If yes,how do you get forgiven for that?

This post has been reposted in the Soteriology section of General Theology. I may need some help, fellow Catholics, as I am about to walk into the viper's nest. Many of you are better with theology than I am.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7577204/

Sorry to jump in late but I think most protestants would agree with this.

That's because I specifically worded it with regards to Protestant soteriology. When I argue with my extremely Calvinist friend, this is how I explain attainment of salvation. For us, faith and works are just two sides of the same coin, grace. Faith and works bolster each other so that having faith increases works, and doing works increases faith.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I always hear that RC believe that one must have works to be saved,can anyone here elaborate on the different works that is require in your religion to gain salvation.Thanks

Yas, we need both and surprisingly and interestingly the Protestants do the works required - but deny their need.

Praying for others, counseling them, evangelizing them [instructing the ignorant], burying their kin, feeding the poor, clothing the naked, visiting jails...et al.
Why? Because the Bible says to do these things, but then they do not understand notion that these things are works.

SO tho by mouth they disagree, by deed they do it.
I find it a weird thing to see how this unfolds.

Thanks for your reply Vendetta,I understand you have seven sacraments my question:
a)Are they all equally important?
b)If you miss one are a person still saved?
c)Some sacraments are a one time affair eg.Baptism,how about other sacraments,do you have to continously work on them?
d)What if you don't continuously do Eucharist,are one still saved?
e)So the RCs are to keep the 10 commandments all the time,what if you break them,is that mortal sin? If yes,how do you get forgiven for that?

WIll look for other thread when i return.


I would like to see what Rino thinks of the answers regarding Mary.


Images for roman catacombs

• http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...=_FMgTr7NAozPgAfDlaHkBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CDcQ9QEwAQ
• http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...=_FMgTr7NAozPgAfDlaHkBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CDoQ9QEwAg
• http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...=_FMgTr7NAozPgAfDlaHkBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CD0Q9QEwAw
• http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...=_FMgTr7NAozPgAfDlaHkBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQ9QEwBA

 

[WarriorAngel]

MARY, OUR MOTHER: Artwork from the Roman Catacombs

Marian art in the catacombs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrhowlhznAA&feature=uploademail

 

[MikeK]

When we talk about "the protestants" and what they believe, we really sound like dolts. As best I can tell, the only things that unify all protestants are that they believe in Christ and are not Catholic. Beyond that there are many differences in their beliefs. Too often Catholics speak of Protestants as if they are all solo scriptura, all OSAS, all non-believeing in the real presenece, etc. Out of love and charity, we should be more careful in our speech. Yes, it can be confusing, but we don't appreciate it when non-Catholics get lazy and misrepresent our beliefs, we ought not do that either.

 

[FriendlyJosh]

reading that is really terrifying for me,what if someone dies before they do all those things? or does some but not all, like feeds the poor, cloths etc...? is really scary stuff, makes me feel hopeless. :\

 

[largeli]

Im very interested in some of the answers givin on here. I have never heard a catholic answer them like that. Id like to ask a couple questions also without hijacking the thread (my apologies)...

1. Do Catholics believe that Mary worships Christ?

2. Was Mary a woman in need of a savior just like all of us?

 

[Virgil the Roman]

1. Do Catholics believe that Mary worships Christ?​

Affirmative.

2. Was Mary a woman in need of a savior just like all of us?
​

In Brief: Affirmative.

To elabourate:

Christ applied the merits of his grace, blood, and salvation to her like all others; however, she differs in that these merits were applied to her prior to her conception and birth. Hence, the belief in the "Immaculate Conception" of the Holy Mother of God; where God by His grace and merit, applied to His Holy Mother the merits of his redemption and salvation, so as to have a Holy Mother, a pure vessel, and a "Holy Ark" of the New Covenant to hold the "Word of God" that is Jesus Christ.

 

[Vendetta]

When we talk about "the protestants" and what they believe, we really sound like dolts. As best I can tell, the only things that unify all protestants are that they believe in Christ and are not Catholic. Beyond that there are many differences in their beliefs. Too often catholics speak of Protestants as if they are all solo scriptura, all OSAS, all non-believeing in the real presenece, etc. Out of love and charity, we should be more careful in our speach. Yes, it can be confusing, but we don;t appreciate it when non-Catholics get lazy and misrepresent our beliefs, we ought not do that either.

I often use "some" or "many" in parentheses when I discuss Protestant beliefs. Which ones don't believe in Sola Scriptura?

Im very interested in some of the answers givin on here. I have never heard a catholic answer them like that. Id like to ask a couple questions also without hijacking the thread (my apologies)...

The thread is about Mary. So are your questions. No hijacking here

1. Do Catholics believe that Mary worships Christ?

Of course!

2. Was Mary a woman in need of a savior just like all of us?

All humans are in need of a savior. Mary was chosen for a very unique role, and she was given the grace both to absolve her of original sin and to refrain from committing personal sin, but it was through God's grace (Jesus' sacrifice) that it was given to her. So then, of course Mary was/is in need of a savior.


Edited: Shaking my fist at you Virgil!

 

[largeli]

1. Do Catholics believe that Mary worships Christ?
​

Affirmative.

2. Was Mary a woman in need of a savior just like all of us?
​

Affirmative. Christ applied the merits of his grace, blood, and salvation to her like all others; however, she differs in that these merits were applied to her prior to her conception and birth. Hence, the belief in the "Immaculate Conception" of the Holy Mother of God; where God by His grace and merit, applied to His Holy Mother the merits of his redemption and salvation, so as to have a Holy Mother, a pure vessel, and a "Holy Ark" of the New Covenant to hold the "Word of God" that is Jesus Christ.

Thank You for this.